Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
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Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
The functions of a technical team antag, full vision over the entire station, the ability to lock down and use the doors of the entire station, the ability to flood plasma that will kill the entire station, the ability to spawn armies of sentient machines that kill the entire station, their ability to make explosions on every machine on the station, including light bulbs that make holes in the floor, and the ability to nuke the station and instantly end the round are abilities that are incredibly balanced and can totally be countered or fought against in any way yepyepyep
It really needs some nerfs. Traitor AI was already insane before and this is honestly ridiculous.
It really needs some nerfs. Traitor AI was already insane before and this is honestly ridiculous.
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- kevinz000
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Git gud.
All I can say - Mekhi the traitor malf who caused this
All I can say - Mekhi the traitor malf who caused this
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
I wasn't even playing that round and man that was gross, it's next-level power creep because the malf can work together with other traitors to basically hand them godmode and the entire armory.
Or they can become a team antag and build an auto borger and kill the station in other ways
It can too much in general, it's overpowered.
Or they can become a team antag and build an auto borger and kill the station in other ways
It can too much in general, it's overpowered.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Well, I am sure it has nothing to do with putting an antagonist designed to be in a round on its own inside an already chaotic roundtype with other powerful antagonists...
I told Kor that it would need significant nerfs in order to be in such a situation, and that is why I was against it. A Malf AI is too powerful to be added to Traitor. I warned about this. Several times. I was dismissed.
I did not want Malf to be removed, because I knew it would need heavy nerfs in order to fit in with another roundtype. Of course, if this was Kor's end goal, to remove Malf without too much player resistance, he is succeeding.
I told Kor that it would need significant nerfs in order to be in such a situation, and that is why I was against it. A Malf AI is too powerful to be added to Traitor. I warned about this. Several times. I was dismissed.
I did not want Malf to be removed, because I knew it would need heavy nerfs in order to fit in with another roundtype. Of course, if this was Kor's end goal, to remove Malf without too much player resistance, he is succeeding.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
>its borgs can't be emagged
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AIs not stealth bolting and depowering their doors
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AI can make 8 machines come to life for every 3 hacks that will 1v1 a person with anything less than a spear and the machines can knock people down
>can make auto borgers to become a team antag with none of the downsides since it can hack its borgs and have a laser spewing army and all of the benefits from before
>can also hand traitors the entirety of the armory to make them instantly win at space
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AIs not stealth bolting and depowering their doors
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AI can make 8 machines come to life for every 3 hacks that will 1v1 a person with anything less than a spear and the machines can knock people down
>can make auto borgers to become a team antag with none of the downsides since it can hack its borgs and have a laser spewing army and all of the benefits from before
>can also hand traitors the entirety of the armory to make them instantly win at space
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
>ais are immobile
>ais require cameras to see
>borgs can be flashed to be stunned
>there's an armory full of fun anti-enemy gear like lasers and ion rifles
>can also get fucked over by other traitors
>you can patch broken flooring
fuck i can't be arsed to do anything about that durn rogue ai someone nerf it
>ais require cameras to see
>borgs can be flashed to be stunned
>there's an armory full of fun anti-enemy gear like lasers and ion rifles
>can also get fucked over by other traitors
>you can patch broken flooring
fuck i can't be arsed to do anything about that durn rogue ai someone nerf it
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Oh man borgs can be flashed to stun, you can turn flashes into bombs, and you can also hand the entire army to traitors while sec is distracted so that's out of the picture, you can move your core I guess but that hardly matters when you're so heavily defended, and yeah you can patch broken flooring but when the AI can do four of these for every three hacks you're gonna run out of atmos eventually.
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- IcePacks
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
security doesn't even have to kill the borgs
the borgs' achilles heel is commonly available to civillians (or, once again, any idiot with a toolbox)
there's a fucking console you can use to insta-kill borgs at the first sign of trouble
the borgs' achilles heel is commonly available to civillians (or, once again, any idiot with a toolbox)
there's a fucking console you can use to insta-kill borgs at the first sign of trouble
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
The AI can make the console come alive, and when it dies, it dissapears completely.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
when the AI is retarded it will die to borg blowing console etc
if the AI has at least half a brain it can counter most attacks on it provided it has borgs
an AI that's smart counters attacks on its borgs and has the borgs help it
basically it's a role with a high skill ceiling that, when played right, pretty much can't fail short of the borgs being retarded or RNG like the singulo flying into it
scream "git gud" all you want, as long as the AI is better than you you pretty much can't beat it since an AI at max potential outclasses a human at max potential
if the AI has at least half a brain it can counter most attacks on it provided it has borgs
an AI that's smart counters attacks on its borgs and has the borgs help it
basically it's a role with a high skill ceiling that, when played right, pretty much can't fail short of the borgs being retarded or RNG like the singulo flying into it
scream "git gud" all you want, as long as the AI is better than you you pretty much can't beat it since an AI at max potential outclasses a human at max potential
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
That's only talking about the AI alone. When the AI is working with traitors, which it will, since it has syndi radio, it'll give them the entire armory and then just end the round because how is sec gonna stop dudes with the entire armory fucking them on top of the AI doing everything to fuck them.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Traitor AI by itself isn't really that good to be honest. Most of your options involve plasma flood and boltshock every door on the station, and you are incredibly reliant on cyborgs or other traitors if those options don't kill your target. Sure, it'll kill some people, but the entire crew will be out to lynch you and it's very, very easy to deal with traitor AIs with a full toolbelt. Once the crew knows an AI is bad they'll usually all stop whatever they're doing to work against it, so you're a very big target.
That said it can get very powerful if you let it, but the more powerful you get the more likely it is you'll be lynched. And you can't do much against one guy with a toolbelt hacking into your core unless you've got borgs, and borgs are easy to blow.
That said it can get very powerful if you let it, but the more powerful you get the more likely it is you'll be lynched. And you can't do much against one guy with a toolbelt hacking into your core unless you've got borgs, and borgs are easy to blow.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.
A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.
If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.
A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.
A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.
If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.
A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
this is a good point on the surface, but then you realize that it basically means that the odds for a malf round have gone from minuscule to almost as high as traitorKor wrote:Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.
A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.
If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.
A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.
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- ShadowDimentio
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
It's like antag AIs were so strong that they were put in their own round for a reason???
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Can they shunt?
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
honestly we should just remove malf powers entirely, malf is kinda horribly shit
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
>so strongShadowDimentio wrote:It's like antag AIs were so strong that they were put in their own round for a reason???
>30% winrate in malf
If they buy shuntleibniz wrote:Can they shunt?
There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.PKPenguin321 wrote:this is a good point on the surface, but then you realize that it basically means that the odds for a malf round have gone from minuscule to almost as high as traitorKor wrote:Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.
A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.
If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.
A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
you've got a good point, and im probably wrongKor wrote:There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.
actually now i'm curious, does anybody know the gamemode odds before malf was removed
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
So it's okay to let an antag be so strong that it literally cannot be countered unless you powergame or metagame seriously hardcore?
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Its been hovering around 5%-7% for the last year, the value has shifted as I add and remove modes from the rotationPKPenguin321 wrote:you've got a good point, and im probably wrongKor wrote:There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.
actually now i'm curious, does anybody know the gamemode odds before malf was removed
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
FTFYZilenan91 wrote:So it's okay to let an antag be so strong that it literally cannot be countered unless you git gud or man up seriously hardcore?
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
the big issue here, the reason that an ai will always be inferior to a human, is that this is simply not truePKPenguin321 wrote: if the AI has at least half a brain it can counter most attacks on it provided it has borgs
the ai is physically incapable of doing anything and therefore operates through machinery, literally all of which can be hacked or disabled in some way so that it can't be used by the ai unless it is reconfigured
borgs are hardly better, and there's an exciting variety of ways to permanently fuck up borgs as well, including the removal of their chargers
the limit for the ai's ability to fuck the crew over is placed by the crew, and if the crew sets a tight limit it can't run off into a maint shaft, erect a wall, and wait out the heat; it has a set list of locations it can hide in and the crew can find them all
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Friendly reminder that malf AI's can forcefully, and remotely take possession of any mech on the map.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
The only thing I don't like about tatormalf is having un-emaggable borgs with no feedback.
Malf AIs are easy to take down solo if you have a single pair of insuls, a flash, and a full suite of tools. Bonus points for a projectile weapon, c4, thermite, ion rifle, RPD (either kind), core access, EMP implant, laser gun, double-esword, a space suit, an emag, etc. You only really need one 'bonus' item to easily knock a malf AI core. The trick is the shunting, which is a pain in the ass in a mode where the Captain is more than likely dead by the time the AI deltas. I'm more fond of classic malf instead of traitor-malf since traitor gear makes killing the AI effortless (which traitors will, since the wincondition for the malf AI ends the round and redtexts you, not many antags will willingly end their round like that), excluding the inevitable easter-egg APC hunt that you're reliant on one item to track down.
There's no real reason to hack APCs either, since the delta timer is a flat 450, you're better off preparing yourself normally with plasmaflooding and so forth, and not hacking a single APC and risking a tip-off until it's too late.
Oh yeah, the AI delta timer was missing last I played. I don't like it in tator, since it should still be the focus, and traitor gear innately fucks malf AIs up the ass. They're inherently incompatible modes.
Malf AIs are easy to take down solo if you have a single pair of insuls, a flash, and a full suite of tools. Bonus points for a projectile weapon, c4, thermite, ion rifle, RPD (either kind), core access, EMP implant, laser gun, double-esword, a space suit, an emag, etc. You only really need one 'bonus' item to easily knock a malf AI core. The trick is the shunting, which is a pain in the ass in a mode where the Captain is more than likely dead by the time the AI deltas. I'm more fond of classic malf instead of traitor-malf since traitor gear makes killing the AI effortless (which traitors will, since the wincondition for the malf AI ends the round and redtexts you, not many antags will willingly end their round like that), excluding the inevitable easter-egg APC hunt that you're reliant on one item to track down.
There's no real reason to hack APCs either, since the delta timer is a flat 450, you're better off preparing yourself normally with plasmaflooding and so forth, and not hacking a single APC and risking a tip-off until it's too late.
Oh yeah, the AI delta timer was missing last I played. I don't like it in tator, since it should still be the focus, and traitor gear innately fucks malf AIs up the ass. They're inherently incompatible modes.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
>emag proof borgs
Changed months ago, applied to both malf and traitors already
>no reason to hack
You need to hack at least some apcs to buy a nuke, and you wont have any other powers if you hack the bare minimum for that
>delta timer missing
Not missing, changed to announce periodically for code reasons.
>nuke redtexts traitors
Actually they count as winning so long as they survive the blast somehow
>traitor gear fucks AIs
Yep. Thats why I believe its gonna be too weak if anything, not too strong
Changed months ago, applied to both malf and traitors already
>no reason to hack
You need to hack at least some apcs to buy a nuke, and you wont have any other powers if you hack the bare minimum for that
>delta timer missing
Not missing, changed to announce periodically for code reasons.
>nuke redtexts traitors
Actually they count as winning so long as they survive the blast somehow
>traitor gear fucks AIs
Yep. Thats why I believe its gonna be too weak if anything, not too strong
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Maybe give antags a big red announcement that says "you greentext iif you GTFO before the nuke blows" as soon as it hits Delta.
Fluff it as IC update from their superiors.
Fluff it as IC update from their superiors.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
This. My experience of traitor+malf so far has been the traitor CE waltzing into the core with an RCD the moment it went delta and killing the AI single handedly.Kor wrote:>traitor gear fucks AIs
Yep. Thats why I believe its gonna be too weak if anything, not too strong
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
That's why you don't go delta, you hand the entirety of the armory to a traitor, then poop on everyone else with lightbulb explosions, borgs, and plasma floods.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Gee I'm sure that logic was totally sound when the 30% winrate malf was a mode on it's own.
NOW you have TRAITORS in your malf round who could easily work against you and kill you singlehandedly!
Just because traitors exist doesn't mean they have to cooperate, and just because the AI can bolt the Armoury open doesn't mean security is going to allow any dumbshit to just walk in there and loot it.
NOW you have TRAITORS in your malf round who could easily work against you and kill you singlehandedly!
Just because traitors exist doesn't mean they have to cooperate, and just because the AI can bolt the Armoury open doesn't mean security is going to allow any dumbshit to just walk in there and loot it.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
I called this before it was even merged.
Traitor mode without tater AI = Traitors are systematically valid hunted with AI communicating almost exclusively on Sec Channel.
Traitor mode with tater AI = Traitor ezmode enabled, once comms are cut and AI goes loud you can pretty much do anything you want without fear of reprisal.
I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here, I just hate how this game has become so centrally focused on the AI player.
Also friendly reminder that every traitor should buy a syndicate key. Syndie radio lets you communicate with traitor AI's last I tried it. Super cheap way to get "binary" access and communicate/cooperate with the AI in secret and even once comms are down.
A couple traitors + traitor AI all chatting in syndie radio is almost unstoppable if they work together.
Traitor mode without tater AI = Traitors are systematically valid hunted with AI communicating almost exclusively on Sec Channel.
Traitor mode with tater AI = Traitor ezmode enabled, once comms are cut and AI goes loud you can pretty much do anything you want without fear of reprisal.
I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here, I just hate how this game has become so centrally focused on the AI player.
Also friendly reminder that every traitor should buy a syndicate key. Syndie radio lets you communicate with traitor AI's last I tried it. Super cheap way to get "binary" access and communicate/cooperate with the AI in secret and even once comms are down.
A couple traitors + traitor AI all chatting in syndie radio is almost unstoppable if they work together.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
>I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here
>I called this before it was even merged.
Two statements seema bit contradictory. Everything you listed was just as possible before these changes.
AI being the lynchpin of most rounds is an entirely different discussion.
And syndie headsets are way too cheap for an antag balanced around being solo, especially since it works without comms.
>I called this before it was even merged.
Two statements seema bit contradictory. Everything you listed was just as possible before these changes.
AI being the lynchpin of most rounds is an entirely different discussion.
And syndie headsets are way too cheap for an antag balanced around being solo, especially since it works without comms.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
The difference between this implementation of traitor malf and the one I [had/have] in my head is that this malf is syndicate aligned. The way I [was/am/will be] looking at it most, if not all, traitors wouldn't be pals with a malf AI.
That's where the real balancing trouble is. "Fighting the station with the help of the other antags", "Fighting the station while the other antags do their thing", and "Fighting the station AND the other antags" are all very different fights. I always thought malfs would be pretty standoffish in terms of other antags, since its victory condition tends to cause a lot of redtext.
That's where the real balancing trouble is. "Fighting the station with the help of the other antags", "Fighting the station while the other antags do their thing", and "Fighting the station AND the other antags" are all very different fights. I always thought malfs would be pretty standoffish in terms of other antags, since its victory condition tends to cause a lot of redtext.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
It is, the AI and traitors steamrolled everyone with there being absolutely nothing they could do unless they were intentionally trying to be a metagaming shitter.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
They are different fronts, and all of them are very possible based on what the players in the round choose to do. I think its a feature, not a bug, that there are multiple viable ways for each party to act and for the round to play out.Incoming wrote:The difference between this implementation of traitor malf and the one I [had/have] in my head is that this malf is syndicate aligned. The way I [was/am/will be] looking at it most, if not all, traitors wouldn't be pals with a malf AI.
That's where the real balancing trouble is. "Fighting the station with the help of the other antags", "Fighting the station while the other antags do their thing", and "Fighting the station AND the other antags" are all very different fights. I always thought malfs would be pretty standoffish in terms of other antags, since its victory condition tends to cause a lot of redtext.
As to "redtexting everyone" a lot of the initial resitance to the PR was about that, though I don't think it'd be a bad thing if its delta condition was made more hostile to other traitors.
Or maybe it should lose the syndie headset.
Last edited by onleavedontatme on Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
The syndi headset should probably go, there's entirely too much cheese with how powerful the AI is working together with other traitors. Also can you do something about lightbulb explosions that make hull breaches
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Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
"I hate malf and I think its easily the worst mode.Kor wrote:>I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here
>I called this before it was even merged.
Two statements seema bit contradictory. Everything you listed was just as possible before these changes.
AI being the lynchpin of most rounds is an entirely different discussion.
And syndie headsets are way too cheap for an antag balanced around being solo, especially since it works without comms.
But giving malf shit to traitor AI's is going too far..."
That was the beginning of my comment from 7 days ago. It sums up my feelings quite nicely. I'm not sad malf is gone, it was a shit mode, but this just reinforces the AI's influence on traitor rounds and builds up the dichotomy of "AI robocop, murders all the traitors, 95% survival rate ezmode security" versus "AI law 0, murders all the security and cuts comms, 5% survival rate ezmode traitors".
- Anonmare
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
- Byond Username: Anonmare
Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Don't we have early launching escape pods now? Why can't we have traitors do their objective, wait 'til the AI goes Delta and get the hell out of dodge.
You could change it so that surviving the nuke count as an escape/hijack. Getting nuked shouldn't count as an escape in my opinion. That way, Traitors may have an incentive to not get in the AI's way or the AI may be getting in *their* way and will help the crew take it down.
This is all ignoring Double Agents of course who might have a stronger incentive to kill the AI (I.E. Being their target) than to let it detonate.
Personally I'd like to encourage some more backstabbing between Traitors. Maybe the ability to hack each other's Uplinks and steal their TCs for one.
You could change it so that surviving the nuke count as an escape/hijack. Getting nuked shouldn't count as an escape in my opinion. That way, Traitors may have an incentive to not get in the AI's way or the AI may be getting in *their* way and will help the crew take it down.
This is all ignoring Double Agents of course who might have a stronger incentive to kill the AI (I.E. Being their target) than to let it detonate.
Personally I'd like to encourage some more backstabbing between Traitors. Maybe the ability to hack each other's Uplinks and steal their TCs for one.
- DemonFiren
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
- Byond Username: DemonFiren
Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Surviving the nuke already counts, I think.
- Helios
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 5:07 pm
- Byond Username: Shodansbreak
Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
That's not true.Kor wrote:>emag proof borgs
Changed months ago, applied to both malf and traitors already
I emagged the borg, the AI didn't hack it back.
It killed me. It didn't have the emag law set, it had the Asimov+Law 0 lawset.
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- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
- Byond Username: Cheimon
Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Yes, although I think I was that borg, and another borg you emagged killed me for it, said in deadchat later he had been hacked by you.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
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- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
- Byond Username: Cheimon
Re: Traitor AI is incredibly balanced
Ah, well I should have adminhelped it. I wasn't stating it as a certainty, just what the player said in deadchat afterwards.
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