Telekinesis and X-Ray Vision are bullshit together

[Cheimon]

Not an I ded post, though certainly inspired by watching other people uncontrollably die.

Getting killed through a wall by someone that you can't see, can't counter, and can't even know exist until they start killing you is not an interesting or clever game mechanic. The fact someone can wander up to your base, wall themselves in, and then kill you is total bullshit, and it feels like it every time I see it.

Make TK and X Ray incompatible in some way, to the effect that you cannot control objects where you do not have a clear line of sight. Watching gangs, for example, get destroyed because there are 3 or 4 assistants on the other side throwing crowbars at their dominator is only funny initially. It is not funny several times, nor does it continue to be amusing when people are uncounterably ambushed with floating stun batons or shards of glass and have no recourse. Worse still is when the people there are invisible, too, so that even if you could see through walls you wouldn't benefit. I don't know if I'm the only person that thinks this, maybe I am, interested to know what others believe.

[ShadowDimentio]

No fun allowed

[PKPenguin321]

tbh it's not really that good unless paired with something strong, like an axe or an esword

[leibniz]

xray is OP for validhunting anyway.

[lumipharon]

You don't even need tk.
Just get xray + xray lasers and you can hilariously cuck gangs.

Also yeah, xray is so fucking powerful for valid hunting, and is insanely useful as a gangster.

[peoplearestrange]

To be honest, getting both Xray and TK as a geneticst used to be really hard, so it was a welcome reward after lots of work. I don't know if thats changed now, but there should be some fairly OP weapons/combos at the end of a long round of work and research. It makes it rewarding to do your job.

[MMMiracles]

Never forget using xray+tk through cameras to kill/strip people from across the station with literally no way to counter.

[DemonFiren]

So, you can x-ray people through cameras, but of course the x-ray's range is limited.

TK range is only a few tiles longer than that - on Meta, from the Warden's camera you can access the HoS' locker and the red folder next to it, but nothing on the HoS' desk.

[Drynwyn]

Telekinesis is fine with xray. Genetics is allowed to have nice things. Getting both TK and Xray is hard, and there is a counter- the counter is RUN AWAY YOU CUCK. The person with TK-Xray can't chase you through a wall- they can see through them, not run through them. '"omg I can't use my 1337noxcopes on him and win" is not a good argument.

A person who got a hard-to-get combo of powers and found a good situation to use them being secure from retaliation is fine.

As for dominators- if there are people with TK + Xray about, you can either set up next to hard vacuum or in an open area like the cargo bay so the tk-xray people don't have walls to hide behind. If your dominator gets cucked by TK XRAY people, it is because you failed to properly plan- not having a counter in-the-moment is fine if there is a preemptive one.

[Actionb]

Hillarious.
Now that hulk is shit, people start complaining about TK Xray.
If you're too retarded to move away from/pick up 'TK-posessed' objects, no nerf in the world can help you.

[peoplearestrange]

Hillarious.
Now that hulk is shit, people start complaining about TK Xray.
If you're too retarded to move away from/pick up 'TK-posessed' objects, no nerf in the world can help you.

"I CANT KILL IT OR DISARM IT! WHAT DO I DO!?!?!"

[CPTANT]

It's the only thing geneticists have.

Is it more OP than shitting out bombs, mechs and an army of golems?

Is it more OP than flooding the station with plasma and setting it on fire? (It pains me to say it but I actually liked linking a fusion can to distro and flooding the entire station with fusion products, the screams of WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WHY IS EVERY GLASS BREAKING, WHY IS THE ROOM 50,000 DEGREES CELSIUS were priceless)

Lets not nerf everything that isn't science to the ground any more than it already is please.

[Cheimon]

Thanks for the responses, I see my feelings are not shared. I'm not actually convinced I think any of the genetics powers are interesting or valuable additions to the gameplay, but sure, it's fair enough that people think differently.

Just to comment on a couple of particular bits of feedback: first, "run away" isn't a counter. Pulse rifles have a counter, just run from the gunman. Mechas have a counter, just run from the Durand. Hulks have a counter, just run from them. Admittedly running is more effective from some of these than others, but the point is that running never addresses the root cause. Pulse gunmen can be tased, mechs have ion guns, hulks can be syringed or lasered. TK/X-ray can be that much better armoured and harder to bring down.

Second, genetics is also part of the science department, and nerfing it isn't separate from nerfing science. It is entirely part of the science department being OP.

I am I will admit mostly thinking of this in contexts where running away is less of an option, mostly where there is an antagonist base: gang, cult, and rev (those tend to be protag bases) . Genetics feels like you roll a die for every round, and in 1/3rd of them all the powers come into play, where in the rest they don't at all. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

[Actionb]

Genetics is the forsaken stepchild of medbay and science. Nobody wants it. You cannot compare science's durand factories + unlimited guns (or just: GET EVERY AWESOME ITEM EXCEPT DEATH NETTLES HERE) with genetics' puny 'I can look through walls' or 'I can smash through walls' toy powers.
Chipping away at genetics bit by bit does not nerf science in the slightest - quite the opposite. Why bother with genetics, when you can have xray implants, sonic jackhammers, silenced SMGs or mechs?

Also fun fact... you can flashbang somebody with Xray through walls.
So it does have a counter.

[newfren]

You can just pick up all the sharp objects and put them in a backpack, then drop the backpack. X-Ray and TK means nothing if there isn't debris on the ground for them to use.

[John_Oxford]

"lol cant do noffin cuz dey has tk and xray"

It doesn't mean they are invincible.

Just run out of where ever you are standing, and kill them.

Contrary to what you may believe, this is a "i ded plz nurf" thread.

[deputi]

If you pick up an object that has been grabbed with TK the person can still use that object to beat you with it while it's in your hand.
Edit: Just tested putting the telegrabbed object in your backpack. The person with TK can still beat you with it even when it's in your backpack.

[Cheimon]

As long as you accept that robotics isn't science, then you don't have to consider genetics science.

As soon as you accept robotics is science, then you must accept genetics is science. Either they're both part of it, or neither are.

As I said at the start, it's not "I ded plz nerf". It's "they're ded plz nerf".

[PKPenguin321]

If you pick up an object that has been grabbed with TK the person can still use that object to beat you with it while it's in your hand.
Edit: Just tested putting the telegrabbed object in your backpack. The person with TK can still beat you with it even when it's in your backpack.

1. pick up item
2. throw it out of the TK-person's view range
3. laugh
ALTERNATIVELY...
1. place item in backpack
2. take off and drop backpack
3. laugh

[Zilenan91]

Spears are the counter to everything. Just find them and stab them in the dick until they die.

Also then they could just pick up your backpack and steal all your shit. You just gotta run away, and then come back and either shoot/throw a spear at them.

[Drynwyn]

As long as you accept that robotics isn't science, then you don't have to consider genetics science.

As soon as you accept robotics is science, then you must accept genetics is science. Either they're both part of it, or neither are.

As I said at the start, it's not "I ded plz nerf". It's "they're ded plz nerf".

Roboticists start next to R&D (the actual overpowered part of science) and MUST cooperate with scientists in R&D to acquire components for combat mechs. This results in Science (as in, the part that's not robotics) getting mechs frequently, because they play a role in their production.

By contrast, genetics need not cooperate with R&D, or indeed any other part of science, making it more clearly it's own thing.

Additionally, even if you accept that robotics & genetics are both part of science, this does not actually mean nerfing genetics nerfs science. If this were WoW, and the mage had 2 really good talent trees, and one balanced talent tree, would nerfing the balanced talent tree be a meaningful decrease in the power of mages? No, of course not, because everyone who cared about power was already using the good trees, which are unchanged.

Genetics is a part of science, but it's not the part that is the problem.

[onleavedontatme]

Genetics often has their powers 8-15 minutes into the round, at which point you can mass produce them for free.

There is no risk or teamwork or anything involved, it is jusy one guy sitting alone in a room hitting the RNG button until infinite powers pop out. Nevermind balance it is just poorly designed gameplay.

Why do people keep saying it takes hard work/comparing them to mechs?

[Zilenan91]

Probably because Hulk used to be infinitely more useful than mechs were.

[Cheimon]

Genetics often has their powers 8-15 minutes into the round, at which point you can mass produce them for free.

There is no risk or teamwork or anything involved, it is jusy one guy sitting alone in a room hitting the RNG button until infinite powers pop out. Nevermind balance it is just poorly designed gameplay.

Why do people keep saying it takes hard work/comparing them to mechs?

Yes, this is a much clearer expression than I could come up with. It's not the balanced part, if anything it's either completely over the top or almost totally ignored. It's like a vast seesaw. Balanced, but not in a helpful way.

[lumipharon]

I haven't played genetics since 53453 new blocks got added, and all the other gay powers, but back when it was just the 4 powers, using self experimentation then yeah, 5-10 minutes for all 4 powers was easy as piss.

[Incomptinence]

Maybe make powers detectable using tests but require imbibing liquid mining materials to fully manifest?

Not that I am in the POWER OP REMOVE REMOVE dedwagon but it would open up design space for putting more powers in without making genetics a nightmare.

[bandit]

If you pick up an object that has been grabbed with TK the person can still use that object to beat you with it while it's in your hand.
Edit: Just tested putting the telegrabbed object in your backpack. The person with TK can still beat you with it even when it's in your backpack.

I was about to say this was a bug, but it makes sense. If X-ray can see through walls it sure as fuck can see through a backpack.

[Actionb]

All this theory crafting makes my eye itch.
In all the years I have been a spessmens, I was killed maybe once (if at all) by TK. It's not like we have a phalanx of seemingly animated spears every round.
Xray TK is a fucking gimmick compared to old hulk. You can annoy the hell out of somebody. Maybe kill one or two idiots. The AI and mechs have no defense against TK.
That's it. You don't see a guy go murderboning deluxe because he has yedi-lightsabre-grabbing TK powers. All the genetics rampages used to rely on hulk stun punch.

And some clarification on the current genetics work process:
It is now easier and faster than ever to find and distribute powers. Depending on your luck, having ~3 powers within 15 minutes is totally doable. The new 'delayed injection' on scanners allows for very easy power manifestation even if you're alone. You do not lose already manifested powers when injected with the same SE - this is HUGE for getting all powers at once.
In ye olde days hulk and TK required a minimum value of DAC, while the other two needed only BEF. Now all powers have the same threshold around Cxx. Another simplifaction. Having all four powers at proper values at the 20 minutes mark was considered a god like (as in: RNG favored you) achievement. Your powers were rerolled every time you injected yourself: getting 3 out of 4 powers to manifest on you was a real jackpot. Now, though, everyone can be an invisible, cold resistant, wall smashing yedi-dwarf that can spy on the girls in the shower.
Genetics used to be an overrun wreck of a workplace. After a certain time period everyone just smashed/hacked their way in to grab an injector or twenty. The station used to be crawling with glowing people.
Nowadays people tend to forget about genetics. Despite all the simplifying buffs to genetics that guarantee you all powers unless you are a complete tit, people just don't care. It's probably because hulk isn't that game breaking anymore, or maybe it's because the powers are more of a gimmick than a must-have utility.
In short: genetics has become MUCH easier, or rather much less reliant on RNG (which is great, fuck RNG). It usually still takes ~20 minutes to get the full set done, and considering rounds average around 40 minutes, that's completely reasonable. All this still doesn't lead to a station full of genetical superhumans, because the powers are gimmicky and too situational compared to, say, a tazer.

I feel like I write that paragraph every year to ward off another tsunami of genetic power nerfs washing over a dying department. In exchange for making the powers less powerful, we are compensated with easier genetics work and increased accessibility to the powers themselves. Pretty boring.

[lumipharon]

tk + chameleon/whatever mkes you invis when you stop moving makes for some hilarious griefing/dom defending potential.