Peacekeeper Borgs

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:10 am #176350

Seeing as the original thread in ideas is dead, I'd better make one here.
Please post all balance concerns, bugs, issues, suggestions, and whatnot here.
:^)

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:11 am #176351

kevinz000 wrote:Seeing as the original thread in ideas is dead, I'd better make one here.
Please post all balance concerns, bugs, issues, suggestions, and whatnot here.
:^)

ITS SHIT
SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:18 am #176354

And before anyone replies to my shitposting for being shitpost
>Be traitor mckiller
>Pops out esword
>Stab assistant mcasshole
>Peacekeeper borg sees me
>HAAAAAAAAARM
>Bolas my ass
>Run towards the exit
>Can`t run straight
>Borg locks down every door
>Borg screams my name over comms to try to get sec on me
>Borg keeps throwing random shit at me
>Can`t emag my way out
>Emag borg
>Oh wait he`s at the other side of the room
>Door unlocks
>Entire sec team comes in Ree`ing
>I get borged while the peace keeper looks away

So yeah `not for valids gaiz I swear XD`

Also
>Cyanide

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:32 am #176355

Uh bolas.. Will consider revising.. maybe faster self-removal
The non emagged chemicals are ALREADY FAST METABOLIZING. Will consider making it get out of your system even faster or have a lesser effect.
>Looks away AHELP IT. POLICY ISSUE OF SILICONS IGNORING FORCEBORGING.
and what random shit did it throw at you?

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:33 am #176356

kevinz000 wrote:Uh bolas.. Will consider revising.. maybe faster self-removal
The non emagged chemicals are ALREADY FAST METABOLIZING. Will consider making it get out of your system even faster or have a lesser effect.
>Looks away AHELP IT. POLICY ISSUE OF SILICONS IGNORING FORCEBORGING.
and what random shit did it throw at you?

Random shit in it`s module
Screaming
E-Bola
Chems
cookies
All that mess

Also, silicons has always turned away from killing valids.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:35 am #176357

Making chems metabolize 50% faster from what it is now. Making E-Bola (Ayylmao) disappear after 1-2.5 seconds so it's more of "Slow single target" then "Crowd control". Maybe raising delays. Chems have a bit less stamina damage and less dizzy shit.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:40 am #176358

kevinz000 wrote:Making chems metabolize 50% faster from what it is now. Making E-Bola (Ayylmao) disappear after 1-2.5 seconds so it's more of "Slow single target" then "Crowd control". Maybe raising delays. Chems have a bit less stamina damage and less dizzy shit.

Then Standard borgs would be straight better.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:44 am #176359

Yeah and people want standard borgs to lose their baton so they can't do that shit as well if this gets merged so I don't see the issue. Even with fast metabolism it's still going to make you confused. The whole point is to seperate people killing each other, not stun them and arrest them. Energy bolas will have reduced energy cost and 1 second deletion for the moment and no delays. Chems will still have a lot of stamina if you keep injecting them untill I can figure out how to cap stamina from the staminatoxin.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:47 am #176360

Stamina toxin now quickly deals stamina damage as long as your stamina damage is below 50. This should do its intended feature of slowing someone down without making it a stun.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:05 am #176363

kevinz000 wrote:Stamina toxin now quickly deals stamina damage as long as your stamina damage is below 50. This should do its intended feature of slowing someone down without making it a stun.

This doesn`t solve the valid hunting behavior with the borgs turning their eyes away from traitors getting killed

>Human wizard
>Wizard gets stunned then beaten to deaths
>Plenty of asimov borgs just sits there and watch

>Human traitor
>Borgs say `Oh hey the HoP needs me to walk the dog` as they see a live human on a operating table in robotics

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 14, 2016 5:05 am

>I got caught and dunked please remove

You people are impossible to please

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:07 am #176365

ShadowDimentio wrote:>I got caught and dunked please remove

You people are impossible to please

>Lets remove something that was cancer for the majority of the community
>Ok, Now lets readd cancer in a different skin.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:07 am #176366

Isn't that the issue with all borgs who are even capable of blocking shots?

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:08 am #176367

Last I checked the majority of the community did NOT want secborgs removed. This shit doesn't have any hard stuns in quotes unless emagged.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:11 am #176369

kevinz000 wrote:Last I checked the majority of the community did NOT want secborgs removed. This shit doesn't have any hard stuns in quotes unless emagged.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... rg#p162851
Apparently 46% is nothing

Edit:Typo

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 14, 2016 5:46 am

I like how everyone who wanted borgs gone always reposts that poll every chance they get like LOOK GUYS THE POLL SAYS A MAJORITY WANT SECBORGS GONE!! Like it's a fucking peer-reviewed double-blind factual representation of the community that's 1000% accurate, while still missing that the enabled vote was just barely behind and if you count the enabled and the enabled with a nerf vote together they beat out the disabled vote at 54%.

But hey don't let my facts get in the way of your narrative

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:47 am #176371

Feedback would be better when the hype dies off. Other than that, any borg can do what is annoying you yackemflam.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:48 am #176372

Sidon wrote:Feedback would be better when the hype dies off. Other than that, any borg can do what is annoying you yackemflam.

Just wearing sunglasses stops nearly every other borgs except standard

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 14, 2016 5:51 am

Fucking adapt then jesus

If you get caught you're probably fucked anyways if the guy has time to call for help

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:52 am #176376

ShadowDimentio wrote:I like how everyone who wanted borgs gone always reposts that poll every chance they get like LOOK GUYS THE POLL SAYS A MAJORITY WANT SECBORGS GONE!! Like it's a fucking peer-reviewed double-blind factual representation of the community that's 1000% accurate, while still missing that the enabled vote was just barely behind and if you count the enabled and the enabled with a nerf vote together they beat out the disabled vote at 54%.

But hey don't let my facts get in the way of your narrative

It`s a vocal thing for both sides, both silicons and anti-silicons
And I just considered enabled and nerfed as a neutral decision on whether it should be removed or not

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:53 am #176378

ShadowDimentio wrote:Fucking adapt then jesus

If you get caught you're probably fucked anyways if the guy has time to call for help

Just fucking adapt can be applied to any arguement.

Post by **Archie700** » Sat May 14, 2016 6:21 am #176382

You got caught by a borg, then got screwed by it ignoring its laws.

Next time please kill people somewhere more isolated and ahelp the damn borg if it ignores you being forceborgged and is asimov.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat May 14, 2016 6:26 am #176384

Archie700 wrote:You got caught by a borg, then got screwed by it ignoring its laws.

Next time please kill people somewhere more isolated and ahelp the damn borg if it ignores you being forceborgged and is asimov.

This ain`t about me.
I haven`t gotten robusted by a peacekeeper borg yet. I know how to kill secretly and all. I`m doing this for the server.

TechnoAlchemist · Sat May 14, 2016 7:49 am

i thumbs down this thread and peacekeeper borgs

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat May 14, 2016 7:55 am #176395

Non-emagged, they're great. Emagged, they're totally over the top. Tone down the hacked modules. Otherwise, they seem to be good.

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sat May 14, 2016 7:57 am #176396

Sidon wrote:Feedback would be better when the hype dies off. Other than that, any borg can do what is annoying you yackemflam.

See this guy? He's an idiot.

Remove these fucking things.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat May 14, 2016 8:02 am #176397

When is an in-game poll going up? It's the only way this is ever going to be resolved.

Also, if you're against it, please explain why.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:23 am #176400

I think here the problem is that poeple cant stratagize before doing shit check for borgs? One seen? Buy emp implant then get to your target borg comes near? Activate

Poeple are crying because they lost from sec/standard/peacekeeper and claims that they cant win so they askin for nerfs

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:27 pm #176461

Clicking on the cookie maker pops up with a message saying 'cookie synthersizer hacked' should this happen? Also you can bear hug poeple with the hugging module.

dionysus24779 · Sat May 14, 2016 5:45 pm

It's ridiculous that people are already whining over this.

I've only had a couple of rounds as a peacekeeper so far, I think it does its job rather well, being able to prevent harm without really interfering with antagonist's actions (well except the harm part of course), usually you can just roll around and dispense cookies to people which is kind of fun and the Harm alert seems to have a psychological effect.

In my first round as a peacekeeper I even had the chance to be an emagged evil peacekeeper which is fairly powerful, yet my life ended fast when I was flashed and then ion-gunned, it's really not like they're undefeatable.

They also fill kind of a new niche since it's not like playing a secborg, even borg players will need some time getting used to it, same for human players.

It's far too early to say anything, but so far it seems fine. Though the Chloral Hydrate cookies are useless imo and the hacked Hypospray lists Trizine but doesn't generate any so it's always empty. Also the sprite needs glowing eyes for Flashlight (or maybe the "ears" shine?)

Reece wrote:Clicking on the cookie maker pops up with a message saying 'cookie synthersizer hacked' should this happen? Also you can bear hug poeple with the hugging module.

The "hacked" Cookies have Chloral-Hydrate in them, which as far as I can tell has zero effect on someone eating it, though what the bear hug setting does is as mystery to me as well.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:47 pm #176465

I like RP'ing as deconned former combat borg that has all it's weapons replaced with the current modules, the hug was a CQC blade arm, the cookies were grenades, the harm alarm a flashbang, etc, etc.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:53 pm #176467

I genuinely don't see why traitors are getting fucked when an EMP kit (which is AoE fuck-you-cyborg-fuck-you-AI-and-fuck-you-taser carnage) and the EMP flashlight (which is basically an infinite, camouflaged flash to Cyborgs which fucks their radio up AND can mute people from radios as well as disable energy weapons) both for 2 TCs each.
At this point you literally have no excuse as a traitor to be getting caught by cyborgs with the only explanation being is that you are bad at buying the equipment you need.

Hell I consider the EMP flashlight standard equipment because it's so darn versatile and good value for money. I believe you can even use it's EMP to RNG shock doors for added hilarity, unless EMP code got fucked with while I've been busy.

Other antagonists have other things going for them that Peacekeeper borgs shouldn't be an issue.
Changeling? EMP scream. Rev? Overwhelm with numbers. Gang? See above + Uzi spam. Cult? EMP magic. Wizard? Repulse/Disable Technology/Staff of Change/Wand of Death.
Blobs will literally laugh at it.

Peacekeeper's hacked modules need to be toned down though, I've mentioned before it has too much going for it when it's emagged.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat May 14, 2016 6:02 pm #176469

How does the energy bola launcher reset ammo, I fired it once and now all it does is click.

dionysus24779 · Sat May 14, 2016 7:32 pm

I agree with anything Anonmare said, though I said pretty much the same for Secborgs as well.

I think it's just selective memory for many players who remember all the times they were busted by a Secborg but forget all the times that "unrobust borg" was destroyed by them.

Also it seems Peacekeeper was already removed again?

If that's not a mistake (I couldn't choose it anymore) than it's really unfair, we had 2 weeks test time without Secborg but only one afternoon for the Peacekeeper? I had like three short rounds with it.

A lot of work went into it and it should be tested for like a month or two so that both humans and borg players can get used to it.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat May 14, 2016 7:59 pm #176482

Reece wrote:How does the energy bola launcher reset ammo, I fired it once and now all it does is click.

Massive fucking bugfest across all energy weapons, shit like tasers being unusable after two mode changes and no energy-based gun ever recharging.

FranzKrake · Post by **FranzKrake** » Sat May 14, 2016 8:01 pm #176483

For all intents and purposes I think theyre a reskinned HONK mech. Funny and annoying.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat May 14, 2016 8:36 pm #176487

FranzKrake wrote:For all intents and purposes I think theyre a reskinned HONK mech. Funny and annoying.

Honestly that's the feeling I got. If I didn't know better I'd say there were a piss take aimed at the people who got secborgs removed.
"Oh you get beaten by the disabler, oh don't worry you baby. They shoot useless second long bolas now"
"Oh you got stunbaton'd, don't worry they only give out cookies now, the meanie borg can't robust you now"

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:44 pm #176496

Reece wrote:
FranzKrake wrote:For all intents and purposes I think theyre a reskinned HONK mech. Funny and annoying.
Honestly that's the feeling I got. If I didn't know better I'd say there were a piss take aimed at the people who got secborgs removed.
"Oh you get beaten by the disabler, oh don't worry you baby. They shoot useless second long bolas now"
"Oh you got stunbaton'd, don't worry they only give out cookies now, the meanie borg can't robust you now"

This is correct. When secborgs were removed, I initially thought of this as a "fuck you" to the crybabies, then I realized that it could be sorta viable

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:45 pm #176497

Might aswell give the dragnet to it

Sat May 14, 2016 9:50 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Then would you care to point out the part where you "prove" anything?
>inb4 "this is just analysis you didn't technically prove anything" pedantic memery

i'll try to be really concise since i'm tired:

1. Law 1 obliges you to help humans that are in danger, and hopefully save them. If you try your best and the human still dies, you've still satisfied law 1. AIs do not need the tools to save the human every single time, nor for the sake of the fun of the game should they be given those tools.

2. Standard borgs DO happen a lot more often since secborg removal, contrary to what you claim. This is anecdotal proof at best without some kind of statistic, yes, but I've been around a while, and before secborgs were removed you pretty much only ever played standard borg on accident.

3. Standard borgs are better at preventing harm than the borg module you propose. The proposed borg module is rendered obsolete and inferior by it, leaving one to wonder why they would ever pick the proposed module over standard borg. It is like if the standard borg had a hypospray while the mediborg only had a dropper with 5u of omnizine in it. Because you're so focused on making this borg weak, you're not really able to buff it past the point of standard borg without treading back into secborg territory. Your design in this sense is inherently flawed.

4. Borg specialization as shown by engiborgs/janiborgs/medical borgs is good. They have a purpose outside of their laws (building/repairing, cleaning, healing, respectively). This is very good design, as it makes them engaging to play and helpful/tolerable to other players around them.
Making a borg module that exists to only serve the purpose of validhunting under the excuse of "muh law 1" with no other specialization does the opposite, and is bad design. (Not to mention it's not even as good at it's specialized purpose as the standard borg module.)

tl;dr: Your motives behind the laws versus the purpose of silicons is flawed, the borg module proposed encourages bad gameplay, the borg module proposed is inferior to something already in the game and may as well not exist in the first place.

paprika wrote:The arguments for this borg is to allow the AI to break up fights. Why? Why does it need to stop harm? Does the AI fucking implode if a human gets hurt? No. It doesn't. YOU implode because you can't stop the fun. This game is about chaos and violence. People get hurt, and it's not the AI's job to protect them with a legion of validbots that can stun and fuck with antags.

See, I understand. You play AI, you're a floating camera and you get to see all the fights going on and the traitors killing people. I get that you feel helpless there because you can't do anything but close doors.

There's a really easy solution: Don't play AI. Play a role that EXISTS TO STOP ANTAGS. SECURITY!

"But security can't be unstunnable, easily-revived and spaceproof dickbots and operate outside of space law with a flimsy 'do no harm' law!"

I get it, you want to be able to validhunt one round, and then be a super powerful antag the next. NO ROLE GETS TO DO THAT. SECURITY HAD ITS ANTAG REMOVED FOR THIS EXACT REASON.

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:We did address your actual arguments, we just think they're retarded. Refuting your arguments is not "ignoring" them. You said silicons validhunting was a problem, we explained in great detail why law 1 was the issue and not silicons. Standard borgs have actual stun batons, how the fuck is this borg worse? Do you see standard borgs roaming the station, validhunting (spoiler alert you don't)? We can prove you wrong, and we have. Secborgs were an issue because they were designed to function as security, complete with HUDs that identify criminals on sight, disablers, stun batons, and cable cuffs. This borg is less effective at validhunting than the standard module. It's starting to sound less like you're worried about this borg and more like you have a raging hate boner for silicons in general. If you're so confident in the validity of your arguments, why don't you want this made and tested?

Luke Cox wrote:We did address your actual arguments, we just think they're retarded. Refuting your arguments is not "ignoring" them. You said silicons validhunting was a problem, we explained in great detail why law 1 was the issue and not silicons.
No, because I told you why law 1 both isn't the issue and also that it can't be changed, and designing around it is not the right way to fix it. If you had addressed my arguments, you would have addressed this.

Standard borgs have actual stun batons, how the fuck is this borg worse? Do you see standard borgs roaming the station, validhunting (spoiler alert you don't)?
Yes, I do. Standard borgs having stun batons is kind of lame, but since they lack a ranged option it's not really a big balance issue. They also give up being able to be a superior module like an engiborg (infinite walls/airlocks, you get a stunbaton anyways if you get emagged, full tool set so that TRAITORS CANT escape FROM YOU).

Before secborg was removed, people pretty much only played standard borgs on accident (or for the occasional "AI is malf time to esword"). You see a good fair number of them now.

We can prove you wrong, and we have.
>we we we we we
are you secretly wewlad memeing me

And no, you haven't.

Luke Cox wrote:This borg is less effective at validhunting than the standard module.
Then why bother? The standard borg is a sort of jack of all trades type of borg. It has a purpose beyond validhunting. This borg exists purely to validhunt and isn't even as good at it as the standard borg. You've failed to address this multiple times, despite your claims that you've already proved me wrong.

Luke Cox wrote:It's starting to sound less like you're worried about this borg and more like you have a raging hate boner for silicons in general. If you're so confident in the validity of your arguments, why don't you want this made and tested?
I think silicons are cool as a concept, but are played by shitty people who believe that their prime objective should be and already is "get them valids." If engieborgs actually build/repair, they're total bros for life. Janiborgs that actually clean are a godsend, mediborgs that vigilantly stand by the medbay are amazing. The problem is that people aren't playing them this way, and it sucks. This idea just encourages that shitty way of play.

I am very confident in my arguments. Feel free to test this. There just won't be a point to it. We already know how it will play out from both secborgs and what I've already said in this post (namely that this "peacekeeper borg" isn't even as good at it's main job than a standard borg, essentially leaving it without a purpose).

tl;dr

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:54 pm #176500

To be honest I wish borgs had job specific lawsets. With engineering borgs having things like 'ensure the station is running operationally' 'station cannot run at peak effeciency if crew are dead' etc, so that they are suited to the role they are supposed to occupy rather than them being the lawset with a job attached.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:55 pm #176501

Tbh special weeaboo fourth law

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat May 14, 2016 10:12 pm #176506

PK, none of your concerns have actually materialized in practice. A few things need to be tweaked (flash power drain might need to be increased), and hacked Peacekeepers are kinda bullshit right now, but otherwise we're on the right track.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sun May 15, 2016 12:00 am #176512

Flash is from the default borg module that it's children of. As in, I didn't make the flash. I'm currently making it not affect bowmans for emagged stun alarm

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sun May 15, 2016 12:01 am #176513

Also, you guys do realize that the stun arm is the engiborg stun arm, only doesn't stun as long, has a huge power draw, and has a higher delay? :/

Okand37 · Post by **Okand37** » Sun May 15, 2016 12:13 am #176515

Absolutely adorable.

Incomptinence · Sun May 15, 2016 2:21 am

Nah is good what HURR I WANT TO COUNTER ALL SILICON INVOLVEMENT WITH SHADES THEN NO DOORS EVER BOLt AND I PHASE THROUGH THE WALLS WHILE I AM AT IT don't like is that it is good.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun May 15, 2016 2:36 am #176526

You know these there Borgs haven't been keeping peace on the forums if you know what I mean

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Sun May 15, 2016 7:17 am #176556

Cute as all hell, makes me actually want to borg every round. Love the hugging module to death. Cookie dispenser is cute. Human harm speaker is cute. Sign is nice to help block off ways to help sec. Haven't needed to use the hypospray so no feeling on it yet. Snare effective and quirky, I like it. 10/10 Modules.
But,
Recharge at about 1/6th rate as normal borgs. With 15k battery took around 25+~ minutes to fully charge from 500charge, in lowpop its fine but on a highpop, you go do some peacekeeping and you'll be out for the rest of the round.

Will continue to play and edit if I find anything else of interest to add.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun May 15, 2016 7:24 am #176558

>to help sec
You mean, to prevent sec from committing harm.