manual crafting removal

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Sat May 28, 2016 3:55 am #181092

Bottom post of the previous page:

well, the shit change got merged.

Sat May 28, 2016 4:16 am

god is dead

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:22 am #181102

I'm gonna look at forcing the revert pr to be test merged.

I can not abide by removal of slap crafting, its has more immersion and was the first thing about the game that i thought was cool.

("oh, they could have gone with something non-ic like minecraft crafting, but they made it like you were really combining the parts, cool")

Sat May 28, 2016 4:24 am

MrStonedOne wrote:I'm gonna look at forcing the revert pr to be test merged.

I can not abide by removal of slap crafting, its has more immersion and was the first thing about the game that i thought was cool.

("oh, they could have gone with something non-ic like minecraft crafting, but they made it like you were really combining the parts, cool")

yeah that and there is literally no reason it cannot coexist with ui crafting

thanks based MSO

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:40 am #181111

As of now, that revert pr will be forcefully test merged during all test merges or normal updates.

The moment this new forced pr test merge causes a merge conflict with an update, i will either have to give up on this, or fork away from coderbus, as all updates will not work until that point

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:42 am #181112

PK stop this coexisting meme. Two systems to do the same thing means double the work to maintain both of them.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12267
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12265
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/9926
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/4978
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14892

These are all bugs that arise from having separate code where it works fine in one method of crafting but is broken in the other, and this is just what I found in a quick issue search, I know for a fact there's more.

If you have suggestions to make the unified crafting system better and more immersive I'd love to hear them. But the old method is untenable and will continue to be phased out.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:43 am #181113

I don't think you understand, This ends here or i fork.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:48 am #181114

We have until this revert pr merge conflicts with something to come up with some solution that preserves slap crafting, but i decided months ago, that I was gonna pull this card if this happened.

So if you're hoping i'm gonna back down like before, don't count on it.

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 28, 2016 4:53 am

I like slap crafting a lot more than bringing up a window and watching a bar move.

Thank mr MSO ur o k

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:55 am #181116

Showing your usual lack of maturity by providing no suggestions or possible improvements, and threatening to attempt to take over the project because something didn't go your way. Classy.

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Sat May 28, 2016 4:57 am #181118

no need to improve what's good already

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 28, 2016 4:58 am

If the boss says jump you say how high

If the host says keep slap crafting you don't say "but this system is SUPERIOR!"

TBH nobody ever EVER liked tablecrafting. Ever. Making tablecrafting on the go is only mildly better.

Just let your codebaby go with the nice crematorium fellows it won't feel a thing

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:04 am #181120

Cheridan wrote:Showing your usual lack of maturity by providing no suggestions or possible improvements, and threatening to attempt to take over the project because something didn't go your way. Classy.

Did it ever occur to you that you take part blame by not even considering any of the counter arguments, instead pigeonholing them as "memes", and referring to dislike over this change in jest with comments about "ripping the band-aid off". Well two can play at that game.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:08 am #181121

1. Add any intermediary items like wired rods to the recipe list. Optionally stop adding intermediary items in the future.
2. Add a check for when a spessman adds/removes an item to his hand to check against the item in his other hand.
3. Reference this against the list of recipes to see if it's valid for anything.
4. If it is, add an action button to allow the crafting so long as the item combo is still in ones hands.
5. When clicked use a progress bar and make sure the spessman doesn't move/drop the items.
6. Drop -> Qdel the building materials and New the item in the spessman's active hand

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:09 am #181122

There are clear issues with the old system, Izimann, which have been given multiple times. It requires item and code bloat and creates bugs. Adding things to the crafting menu is extremely simple and bug-free. You can pretend that there are no downfalls to slapcrafting but it's simply not true. If you want """immersion""", we can add animations and sound effects, whatever. But it is a basic coding standard that things only be done ONE WAY, anything else leads to un-maintainability. And the more that people can avoid the menu system, the less they'll get used to it and the less we can get suggestions to improve it.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:19 am #181123

MrStonedOne wrote: Did it ever occur to you that you take part blame by not even considering any of the counter arguments, instead pigeonholing them as "memes", and referring to dislike over this change in jest with comments about "ripping the band-aid off". Well two can play at that game.

The only counterargument that has been given by anyone is that menucrafting is not immersive. Other comments like it being clunky, those can and already have been addressed, and can be further improved down the line as we gather feedback on changes.

Considering how little this server cares about roleplay, I frankly find anyone's considerations about "immersion" to be dubious. It's a 2d top down sprite based game. It doesn't exactly suck you into the game world. But again, if people are actually being serious about it instead of using it as an excuse so they can keep things like slapcraft exploits like insta-beepskies and having duffelbags full of spears and wire rods, then that's absolutely something we can work on.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:25 am #181124

I don't think you understand just how serious I have been when I've said that slap crafting is why I kept playing after my first round.

I don't think you understand just how revolutionary that was to me. How that "oh, they didn't cheapen it with some ooc system like minecraft's table crafting, you have to actually put the parts together" (I swear to god, this was what went thru my head) shaped the entire way I viewed the game from that point on.

How that "taking ic to the next level" started my love for this game. How it was the source of its appeal to me.

I want the servers to actually have new players, and retain them, and part of that is looking at where the games appeal comes from, and as a lot of people in this thread have pointed out, slap crafting and all of those taking ic to the next level things is the key of that appeal.

Like I understand the code quality viewpoint, but good code that isn't fun to play isn't good code. At some point there has to be a balancing act between the two, but you won't even entertain that argument, you won't even attempt to understand that argument, you dismiss it and move on, looked down at those who had it, and thought you could just "rip the bandaid off".

I don't know what makes me more mad, the change or the fact that nobody pushing to remove slap crafting is even willing to actually look at the other viewpoint seriously, instead just dismissing them and their arguments, pigeonholing them as memes.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:28 am #181126

we keep stating this:

the concept of slap crafting isnt bad

the code is though

just fucking put your hateboner away for a few and just code a better slapcrafting and we'll re-add it alongside minecraft memes

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:31 am #181127

Our based host telling it like it is

Sat May 28, 2016 5:33 am

Cheridan wrote:PK stop this coexisting meme. Two systems to do the same thing means double the work to maintain both of them.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12267
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12265
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/9926
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/4978
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14892

These are all bugs that arise from having separate code where it works fine in one method of crafting but is broken in the other, and this is just what I found in a quick issue search, I know for a fact there's more.

If you have suggestions to make the unified crafting system better and more immersive I'd love to hear them. But the old method is untenable and will continue to be phased out.

a lot of those issues you linked were caused by tablecrafting
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12267 in particular tickles me because it's come up so many times as an issue with UI crafting. UI crafting really really REALLY needs a "this OR this" ability for specific parts in recipes. The lack of stuff like this existing just goes to show how limited the system is compared to slapcrafting, even if the code is more compact.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:36 am #181130

It has nothing to do with the viewpoint, code quality trumps outdated features even if they have novelty, and this is a good example of the maintainers 'forcing the hand' of people who are passionate about it. If you REALLY like this feature, code it to be modular and object oriented and easy to add everything to. I can think of ways to do it myself in an elegant way, but then again I'm not a coder. Seriously, it's a matter of time and effort, and not bitching on the forums when something you like gets removed because it fucks with the game.

ShadowDimentio · Sat May 28, 2016 5:37 am

Doesn't matter how dense you can pack the code if it's indigestible

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 5:54 am #181140

PKPenguin321 wrote: a lot of those issues you linked were caused by tablecrafting
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/12267 in particular tickles me because it's come up so many times as an issue with UI crafting. UI crafting really really REALLY needs a "this OR this" ability for specific parts in recipes. The lack of stuff like this existing just goes to show how limited the system is compared to slapcrafting, even if the code is more compact.

Eh that particular one wouldn't be an issue if the code it was working off of was designed better in the first place -- cyborg left and right arms should be sharing the same arm parent type, but they're not. And anyway, it still illustrated my point: something works fine in one crafting system but is broken in the other, because the code operates in two completely different places.

Anyway finding a new host sounds like a lot of work so now we're working on a new ~*hybrid*~ system that aims to make everyone happy

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat May 28, 2016 6:25 am #181148

Cheridan wrote:Other comments like it being clunky, those can and already have been addressed, and can be further improved down the line as we gather feedback on changes.

Funny because the only thing I got was "no" for probably the most detailed complaint here.

Great.

Sat May 28, 2016 8:27 am

Cheridan wrote:...now we're working on a new ~*hybrid*~ system that aims to make everyone happy

Why would anybody do that? People who like slapcrafting are happy with things as-is and anything else would get denied anyway.

Unless somebody steps up and says "I am working on a combined crafting system" right now, I expect nobody will.

And even if anybody was, the only person who can meet MSO's standards is MSO himself. So anybody else working on a system would either have to check in with him to a ludicrous degree or risk having the PR rejected.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 9:10 am #181177

He says he wants to work on it after his MC rewrite. Which is good because, yeah, everything you said is right.

honestly i still think the whole thing is ridiculous, ranting about immersion and new player retention, when... for a new player, the crafting process is:

Realize slapcrafting exists
Tab out of the game entirely and go to the wiki
Go to the crafting page, scroll down to the instructions of what you want to make
Tab back into the game and build it
Repeat process for each crafting item until you've memorized each recipe

which is AT LEAST as bad if not worse than an in game menu for "immersion"
but whatever. it's what he wants, or a new fork

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat May 28, 2016 9:38 am #181184

what is even happening in this thread

Incomptinence · Sat May 28, 2016 11:58 am

As soon as the host muscles in even with crowd funding coders fall in line quivering like little children is what.

So like if the host wanted poo he could have poo.

You would think the negative public opinion (which I stand against on this one) would be enough but nooo caving to populism would set a terrible precedent!

When I started donating it was so shit like SOS' wild sec fucking didn't happen again.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat May 28, 2016 12:26 pm #181207

Speaking of crafting lists, and shit.

What the fuck happened to Microwaves? They were just insane enough to be canon that they had some crazy matter manipulating bullshit because nanotrasen.
Now its relegated to "heat up 300 meat steaks and open your gigantic recipe list window to slap it together".

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sat May 28, 2016 3:01 pm #181231

I liked slapcrafting because it's consistent with everything else in the game. I can't craft a drink or a chemical using a window that tells me what to do.

TechnoAlchemist · Sat May 28, 2016 5:38 pm

The whole slap crafting process is harder to make additions to but it's overall really fun as long as the wiki stays up to date. There's not even that many slap crafting recipes so I don't see the issue

Sat May 28, 2016 5:43 pm

TechnoAlchemist wrote:The whole slap crafting process is harder to make additions to but it's overall really fun as long as the wiki stays up to date. There's not even that many slap crafting recipes so I don't see the issue

You say "it's fine as long as they're not many", I say "A feature that doesn't scale".

TechnoAlchemist · Sat May 28, 2016 5:52 pm

We can have both, using tools and items on other items is unique but if people want their feature to be easily crafted table crafting is an option, albeit a rather boring one.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat May 28, 2016 6:06 pm #181292

Incomptinence wrote:As soon as the host muscles in even with crowd funding coders fall in line quivering like little children is what.

So like if the host wanted poo he could have poo.

You would think the negative public opinion (which I stand against on this one) would be enough but nooo caving to populism would set a terrible precedent!

When I started donating it was so shit like SOS' wild sec fucking didn't happen again.

MSO is a coder himself, not all coders are in agreement regarding this (and lots of other shit).

The truth is, a lot of people found appeal in manually combining items to make new items, without breaking IC with a menu window. Many other things in the game work purely IC and menu windows are mostly used to simulate the interface of a computer or machine.

Menu crafting might be doable with a cleaner code than slapcrafting's code, but that does not justify it existing. How about making slapcrafting code better?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 28, 2016 6:20 pm #181302

>replying to incomptinence seriously

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sat May 28, 2016 6:28 pm #181308

Scott wrote:How about making slapcrafting code better?

Because that's way more easily said than done. You can't just "make the slapcrafting code better". The method used -- specific scattered attackby() procs of similar, but unique, duplicated code attached to various items -- is inherently problematic. The best you can do is write an entirely new system that simulates the old crafting but uses centralized, unified code.

Sat May 28, 2016 7:39 pm

Which has already been denied.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat May 28, 2016 8:11 pm #181348

MSO said he was gonna code it after the MC, which is just about finished now so maybe when the freeze ends

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat May 28, 2016 10:24 pm #181398

Cheridan wrote:Showing your usual lack of maturity by providing no suggestions or possible improvements, and threatening to attempt to take over the project because something didn't go your way. Classy.

So whats next?
Clicking an r-wall with a toolbox to bring up magic progress bar of deconstruction?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 28, 2016 10:49 pm #181407

Yeah, deconstruction/construction is probably next on the list to be unified but even then, all walls and all windows have shared deconstruction procs (for the most part) which is still better code than slapcrafting lol

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sun May 29, 2016 2:41 am #181476

I'm pretty sure anything is better than the copypasta extreme that is slapcrafting, as non-ooc as it is.

Post by **oranges** » Sun May 29, 2016 4:50 am #181510

slapcrafting more like shitcrafting.

did you seriously throw you baby out with the bathwater over the spear crafting???

I swear you play other games for like two minutes and it's all on fire when you get back.

Also this is another one of those things where the forum warriors are out in force on either side but you run a poll and it turns out at least a third of the server doesn't care. Like AI changes

Skorvold · Post by **Skorvold** » Sun May 29, 2016 5:35 am #181530

It's whatever maaaan. Pretty indifferent too it, I just think pop up windows are dumb. Feels a little "user"-ish, if you catch my drift? Ought not to get our panties in a wad over it.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:41 pm #182112

Played as an ash ligger earlier, saw the bloated menu

There's a scrollbar on the tribal page, one of the smallest ones
This is bad

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:44 pm #182115

Don't worry guys, the shitty horrid to use menu has nice code so it's okay

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:54 pm #182119

Takeguru wrote:Played as an ash ligger earlier, saw the bloated menu

There's a scrollbar on the tribal page, one of the smallest ones
This is bad

Just use the search :^^^^^)

ShadowDimentio · Mon May 30, 2016 9:34 pm

The menu went from "I don't like it but it's tolerable I guess" to "MSO was right burn it to the ground" with the new update. Looks like shit, plays like shit, I don't care how clean the code is, get rid of it.

Post by **oranges** » Mon May 30, 2016 9:42 pm #182149

CosmicScientist wrote:
oranges wrote:... forum warriors...
Do we get a coat of arms?

Aranclanos · Post by **Aranclanos** » Mon May 30, 2016 10:26 pm #182166

>guys erro is crazy and forking get a new host
>ok here is new host we promise he wont go crazy
>guys new host is crazy and forking

DUAL HOST REVOLTING
DEJA VU I JUST BEEN IN THIS PLACE BEFORE

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon May 30, 2016 10:53 pm #182176

Shouldn't gameplay trump code quality though? Why does the code exist if not for the game?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon May 30, 2016 11:04 pm #182187

Improving the code is always good and something coders should do, but if it gets to the point that it harms the game then it's unacceptable.