rig suits

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:33 pm #14226

Please note that this thread does not apply to antags or miners before reacting to it. They are balanced around their current gear.

I think rigsuits are in their present state a prime example of power creep. Even the medical rig is strictly better than a normal space suit. EVA used to be a prime loot location, but now because of the proliferation of SSUs and rigs, it's barely worth breaking into. The Atmos and CE suits even have super fire protection. Some rig helmets count as head protection. I propose that rigsuits for crew who aren't miners be replaced with normal space suits.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:51 pm #14229

Those rigsuits have a very real reason to being different. Atmos hard suits are for fighting fires that can cause breaches which can then be repaired. Engineering hard suits have radiation protection for singulo reasons, and the security hard suits have slightly more robust stats for combat. Medical hard suits shouldn't even be mentioned since there is only one on the map and it's not exactly easily accessible.

If you replace these suits with normal space suits you're going to kill the job they're intended to do.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:13 pm #14231

After a very long discussion on coderbus, I fully disagree with the removal of any RIG suit in game. In addition to all the other nerfs that were put forward during the discussion by the people in discussion.

As I said, this is just nerfing for the sake of nerfing.

The only alterations I fully support for RIG's is the removal of their Flash Protection on all RIGs aside from Syndi's/Wizards/Sec's and the Captain's.

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:26 pm #14234

If you're going to remove flash protection from the engineering RIG you need to implement a welding mask style toggle. (unless welding protection and flash protection are different variables you can change) Otherwise you're just going to make engineers go blind trying to fix shit in space.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:05 pm #14257

If we must keep their protective functions, how about giving hardsuit helmets restricted vision range (eg welding mask vision). It doesn't get in the way of anyone's job, but is a downside all the same.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:02 am #14264

Only when activated though because that sucks otherwise.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:14 am #14278

To expand myself from when I posted last night.

I feel the whole discussion that was held on rig suits was essentially the equivalent of dropping a Nuclear Bomb over a small boarder skirmish.

The identified problem was primarily people wearing rig helmets all the time, and people wearing rig suits inside in general. The proposed "solution" given by hg and more so Rock was to...

- Heavily slow down people wearing rig suits further.
- Remove the Captains, Atmo's and Medical's Hardsuits from the game. Though hg wants all rig suits bar mining's removed.
- If your holding a rig suit in your hands you would still suffer from the slow down effect, possible discussion on the same for holding the helmet.
- Make the CE's Hardsuit identical to the normal Engineering's one.
- Heavily nerf all Hardsuits in defence values (Not much to nerf to begin with).

Whereas the solutions I proposed were seemingly less drastic.

- Remove flash protection from all rigs baring antags/Captains/Securities
- Adjust armour values on rigs for consistency.
- More long term adjust the rig sprites for a unique look instead of a Dead Space look.

Not to mention the discussion being marred in the usually annoyances of a discussion with Rock (Losing argument, better call opponents out as being illogical and not "understanding").

As I said, its a nerf for the sake of a nerf, there are far better solutions to this conundrum than nuking everything from orbit.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:35 am #14288

You do not really need to do anything.

Incomptinence · Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:34 am

Hey if the problem is people nicking the helmet make the helmet give the slowdown instead of the suit. Heavy weight on the head and neck can slow someone down too look at some of the diving suits with massive helmets, for an uncomfortable proportion of the weight to be in the helmet is somewhat reasonable and it is plainly carrying most of the bells and whistles in this outfit.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:39 am #14303

There are three reasons why people wear rig helmets, the best way to combat people wanting to always wear a rig helmet is to look at the reasons why.

Reason 1: Space based protection
Solution: No way to remove this, primary function of a rig suit.

Reason 2: Protection from Facehuggers
Solution: No solution here, facehuggers are a uncommon occurrence and there are very few head items that protect against facehuggers.

Reason 3: Flash protection (Protection or immunity from Flashes/Flashbangs/Wielding.
Solution: Remove flash protection offered by all rig helmets except one's that have a logical in game reason to have flash protection. Engineering rigs get a inbuilt wielding helmet.

Another more eloquent solution is to tie the helmet directly to the suit, as in Dead Space the helmet is actually formed from the suit itself meaning you put the suit on then the helmet comes out over your head.

callanrockslol · Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:55 am

Crazy Idea,

Regular spacesuits for Engineering, maybe make them ablative and let them deflect emitter beams to some extent/radiation proof, only the CE gets a rig
No spacesuits for doctors at all
mining isn't changed.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:43 am #14311

Medical does not even have a rig, they were referring to the Medial rig you can find in the abandoned space ship.

(Well, it depends on what map your on anyway)

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:46 am #14313

Solution: Wearing rigsuits and/or helmets indoors (i.e. not in space*) accumulates stamina damage over time. The numbers and the point at which this kicks in can obviously be tested/tweaked. Fluff: Rigsuits are bulky and hot and uncomfortable and wear you out. DONE.

* this might screw over atmos techs fighting fires, but this happens so infrequently that I don't see it being an issue, plus firesuits exist.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:10 am #14323

I'm going to go ahead and say the best change here would be to do nothing at all. This just isn't really a big enough issue to change/remove all the rig suits on the station. I'm not sure why people even think changing them to normal suits would help, since they're flash proof as well. I just don't see why this is a problem, the whooping four easily accessible rig suits split up between sixty players on average.

just stop. pls.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:37 am #14324

I do kind of like the idea of the helmet and suit being one object, so removing the suit also removes the hat (maybe with a toggle, like helmet lights have). Not sure if that's possible though.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:14 am #14327

YEAH LET'S HAVE A SPACE STATION WITH 6 SPACE SUITS IN TOTAL ON IT

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:00 am #14331

To set the record straight, there are...

- 6 Space Suits
- 1 Captains Space Suit
- 2 Security Hardsuits
- 2 Engineering Hardsuits
- 3 Mining Hardsuits
- 1 Atmospherics Hardsuit
- 1 Advance Engineering Hardsuit (CE's RIG)

For a total of 16 Space Suits on station. (Well, discounting the off-station mining its 13 Space Suits)

Now let me remind you that the population of Sybil ranges from around 30 people all the way up to 80 people. With the average population going from 26 people up to 54 people. In the grand scheme of things, 16 space capable Space Suits are not excessive on those population numbers.

(All statistics are pulled from the /tg/ stats tracker)

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:25 pm #14351

Howsabouts we don't break the jobs that need rig suits over a trivial issue?

Post by **Jacquerel** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:54 pm #14361

The issue is mainly people who wear rig suits or suit helmets everywhere right?
They already slow you down and I don't think that needs to be increased, but you can mitigate that just by holding it in one hand to move and then putting it on again so it isn't much of a disadvantage.

What if the suit helmet was spawned by the suit through a toggle button and did not exist as a separate item, and it took a couple of seconds of being motionless to put on or take off a rig suit?
It makes sense that you can't shift these things as quickly as a shirt, it would not impact people who need them for their jobs because those people don't need to rapidly swap between clothes, and it ensures that if anyone wants rig suit protection then they are forced to wear it around rather than swapping it between their hand and their chest to maintain regular running speed.

Another option would be giving them a powered battery charge when used to move in weighted environments after which you slow down (so it wouldn't effect people actually using them for space, only people using them as indoor armour), but that would annoy firefighters and also probably everyone else.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:05 pm #14394

Doing nothing is what Giacom wanted in the first place, and that's exactly what I suspect will happen.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:46 pm #14397

Change helmet to have togglable visors, as mentioned I wrote the frame work for this ages ago before not getting the sprites to continue.
Move some of the slow down to the helmet (I'd say the largest portion as the helmet lacks the support and servos the suit would provide)

Change the suits to require powercells to operate. Resurrect the old Power Armor code or start from scratch.
When out of power or switched off they'll slow you down immensely, powered they could even return to slowdown 2.
As with power armor, turning the suit on would have a short boot up sequence and lock the RIG into place.

Doing the above would mean that for short term work the suits not much of a burden, using for long periods would be

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:47 pm #14401

I like the idea of space helmets in general having a toggleable welding/anti-flash visor, like the welding helmet does.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:50 pm #14403

And like I said, frame work for that's been in for a long time - have a look at welding gas masks for a proof of concept.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:25 pm #14407

I know how it works, I based the fedora's (now removed) tipping action button off of that.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:32 am #14413

i also made a thing like that for uhhhh gas masks and breath masks and jumpsuits and coats and shit that could probably easily be used for space helmets with visors
i'll maybe do that tomorrow or whenever

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:37 pm #14525

This is how it should be:
Atmos rigsuit is exactly like a space suit but fireproof
Engineering rigsuit is exactly like a space suit but with integrated welding protection (doesn't have to toggle) and near-full radiation protection but not enough to be invulnerable from it
Advanced rigsuit is exactly like a space suit with integrated welding protection, fireproofing, and full radiation protection
All of the above have -NO ARMORING- outside of a tiny (10%) melee reduction
CMO rigsuit is exactly like a space suit with full biohazard protection
Security rigsuit is exactly like a space suit but with identical security helmet/armor stats added

The benefit of hardsuits over fire suits/rad suits/biosuits/welding helmets/armor is that they offer the same thing as their counterparts but are also space proof (obviously)
The disadvantage is that they're rarer, more secured, and in most cases slow you down more.

Only the engineering and adv hardsuit helmets should have integrated welding and flash (sunlight/solar shielding) without obstructing your view, the others should have toggles that obstruct your view like a welding helmet would.

The point of the advanced hardsuit being robust as fuck all and having all these different protections is that there is only one, and that's to encourage people playing head of staff positions. The same goes for the cmo rig, but it probably shouldn't be anything more than a space suit with bio protection, because there's no indication on the sprite it's armored at all, even though (i think) it has armoring.

I agree all the armoring on all non-sec hardsuits should be removed.

However, the old space suits look fat as fuck so I suggest you replace the engineering/atmos suits with recolored NTcode space suits, they look a lot less retarded. I was going to do some recolored variants of those when I had the time, but I don't.

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:49 pm #14564

Will the engineering spacesuits have the ability to hold a large 02 tank in their storage? Losing a hand or backpack slot in order to stay in space for a long time would make fixing things tedious.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:52 pm #14565

When did the CMO get a personal RIG? Unless your referring to the Metastation's Medical RIG in the medbay.

Either way, I do think paprika's suggestion on the suits is a good way to go. However I would not hold out hope of it being accepted.

Retrokinesis · Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:15 pm

The ONLY problem I see with space suits is they can't fit a large tank in suit storage. That's it. They're supposed to be inferior, since they're freely accessible: the AI has to let you in to EVA if you ask, it's effortless to break-into if you're too stupid to do that, and it almost always gets bolted open in an emergency anyway.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:33 pm #14633

I will say as someone who mostly plays atmos tech, often as not, when the rigg suit is getting used, I need to be able to weld in it, because station repairs are happening. Or you know, I am welding to fix the pipes. Atmos rigg needs welding protection as well.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:06 pm #14855

You spawn with welding helmets in your department.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:55 pm #14865

If I need to be doing pipe repair, odds are, I need to be in the rigg as well.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:38 pm #14979

Rig suits look cool and should stay.

I don't care if they get nerfed, they need to stay in the game even as purely cosmetic items.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:51 pm #15010

Pointless nerf, imo. RIGs are not broken, do not "fix" them.

rosello · Post by **rosello** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:32 pm #15022

Cmon, don't remove RIGs. The problems caused by them aren't nearly serious enough to justify removing them.

Rumia29 · Post by **Rumia29** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:43 am #15227

I'll have to agree with the people who don't want any changes.
They simply don't need them.

Incomptinence · Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:34 am

I don't want rig suits nerfed there just needs to be some downsides moved from the suit to the helmet I will admit my idea for this may not be the best. Most of the benefits and none of the downsides are in the helmet.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:41 am #15257

The helmet should really restrict vision when it's flash/welding protected, it's a little silly to take a hardsuit helmet instead of a welding helmet for welding.Yeah it would suck to have limited vision in space and stuff, but that's the whole point and it'd make space even deadlier by forcing you to use an even clunkier and harder to use thing in space. Why not limit peripheral vision with hardsuit helmets a bit? Like, 1-2 tiles blacked out always.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:03 am #16091

I see no problem with rigsuits how they are. Throw engineering a bone for cryin' out loud, it's not like you can even order more suits or anything.

If anything, transfer most of the maulus from the bodysuit to the helmet, since people using only the helmets for flash-protection is the only valid 'problem' I see, and even then it should be kept as-is. Unless we want to make bombs and depressurization even more destructive and lethal to the crew by making the suits downright stupid for anyone to ever want to use by raping their protective properties or anything along those lines, for god knows what reason. If you end up going through with these garbage changes at least make the suits baggable.

We shouldn't be discussing how we can make engineering's lives even more of a living hell for the sake of it. It's tough enough to get people to repair massive gaping holes in the hull, and if you made it so using a suit is downright hostile, nothing will ever get fixed in any respect, and no one will ever want to. There's a reason why 99% of engineering runs off at the start of every shift while eschewing their duty, and it's because doing the same repetitive 5-10 minute repetitive task round to round to round is vexing when many end up dead in twice or thrice that. So they run off with all that the department offers, which are the physical goods the department starts with. I suppose the crux of the issue is that somehow, you need to make engineering uniquely rewarding, make repairing damage quicker, and offer more creative tools to the profession (see: goon mechanic). Perhaps make a unique item dispenser that requires a hefty current to online (read: singuloth) that gives all sorts of useful knicknacks like a device analyzer (http://wiki.ss13.co/Mechanic).

The CMO has access to chems, superpowers, and superviruses; the RD high-yield explosives, subvertable robots, boards to subvert the AI, constructable weaponry, telescience, etc.; the HoP and Captain have, what is, effectively all-access; the HoS has the armory and any evidence that they happen to collect from traitors. Meanwhile, the CE has, in terms of implements, a Shuttle Caller 9000, telecommunications, atmospherics, and common insulated gloves that are looted by every old assistant in construction and tech storage or ordered by cargo. The latter two areas are extremely obvious as to the culprit, are easily fixable without much setup, and still require setup otherwise, during which even an amateur could see your sabotage for what it is. Comparatively-speaking, declawing one of the few major 'ups' of the department (relatively robust rig suits that already make you crawl while wearing) due to their popularity seems to be nonsensical. What you WILL find is that plenty of people will start rolling shaft miner only to get their suits, and will fuck off immediately thanks to newmining being unrewarding dreck.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:45 am #16263

"What you WILL find is that plenty of people will start rolling shaft miner only to get their suits, and will fuck off immediately thanks to newmining being unrewarding dreck." This is already happening. Newmining is really quite the slum, and unless it is a 90 minute extended round, or you are more robust than god, you'll never get enough goodies to actually make it worthwhile or get any real rewards from it.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:43 pm #16353

iyaerP wrote:This is already happening. Newmining is really quite the slum, and unless it is a 90 minute extended round, or you are more robust than god, you'll never get enough goodies to actually make it worthwhile or get any real rewards from it.

Except it'd be worse. Instead of having 1-2 people sort-of-intending-to-mine-but-die-promptly, you'll have 0, and yet no suits.

Cassord · Post by **Cassord** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:20 pm #19571

why not just make it so you run a bit faster in a normal space suit than you would in a rig suit.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:35 pm #19573

I think we should just look at the bare minimum that rig suits need to have and don't go anywhere higher.
All of them need to be space-proof.
All of them can have lights, sure.
- Engineering RIG needs to have rad protection and welding protection (possibly change it to welding helmet-like visor)
- Atmospherics RIG needs to have fire protection and possibly welding protection (for welding pipes, for example).
- CE's RIG needs to have all of that, possibly with higher values (from what I know, regular engi RIG currently doesn't give 100% rad protection, while CE's does).
- Security RIG needs to have armor and flash protection
- Mining RIG needs to have armor
- Medical RIG (do we even have that on the station itself?)

At this point I noticed paprika's post and I basically agree with all of it, except the part about engineers having flash protection.

About facehugger protection. That part probably needs rebalancing anyway, especially since aliens cannot take off items now (or was it fixed?). My opinion is that only bio hoods (and inherently CMO's RIG helmet) should hive protection. Firstly, bio hoods are otherwise pretty fucking useless. Secondly, in the movie those bastards tore space helmets apart with no hassle.

Incomptinence · Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:01 am

The mining drone requires weld repairs after tanking copious damage from mining mobs. It can't really be dragged away from an ongoing fight since being attacked agros it and unlike most bots it lacks an off mode.

tunderchief · Post by **tunderchief** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:02 am #21156

RIGs are fine.

Any negligible advantages they give are countered by how damned slow walking in them is.

Upgrade space suits to have compartments for air tanks, and make them look cooler, and maybe people will want them again.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:42 pm #25496

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:I think we should just look at the bare minimum that rig suits need to have and don't go anywhere higher.
All of them need to be space-proof.
All of them can have lights, sure.
- Engineering RIG needs to have rad protection and welding protection (possibly change it to welding helmet-like visor)
- Atmospherics RIG needs to have fire protection and possibly welding protection (for welding pipes, for example).
- CE's RIG needs to have all of that, possibly with higher values (from what I know, regular engi RIG currently doesn't give 100% rad protection, while CE's does).
- Security RIG needs to have armor and flash protection
- Mining RIG needs to have armor
- Medical RIG (do we even have that on the station itself?)

At this point I noticed paprika's post and I basically agree with all of it, except the part about engineers having flash protection.

About facehugger protection. That part probably needs rebalancing anyway, especially since aliens cannot take off items now (or was it fixed?). My opinion is that only bio hoods (and inherently CMO's RIG helmet) should hive protection. Firstly, bio hoods are otherwise pretty fucking useless. Secondly, in the movie those bastards tore space helmets apart with no hassle.

Doesnt read this http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Combat

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:36 pm #25518

Thanks for bumping an old thread with that content filled post.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:25 am #25561

What if we base the number of rig and space suits on player numbers

We could call it the "costume tensioner"

Rumia29 · Post by **Rumia29** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:51 pm #25590

Nooooooooooo this thread was supposed to stay happily dead!
Stop trying to necro it!

Post by **oranges** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:26 am #219335

remove hardsuits