Please be transparent about gametype weighting

[Oldman Robustin]

My last round as captain and HoS were both extended, felt brave again and went CMO today... extended.

I've had more extended than rev, cult, nukeops, or blob lately. But it's all just speculation because despite roundtype weighting being one of the most crucial factors in playing/enjoying SS13... there's absolutely no transparency behind it.

[Kelenius]

I'm pretty sure extended is weighted to zero, and those were admin-forced.

[Steelpoint]

Apparently these are the weight put behind round types, at least on Artyom but apparently the weighting is near identical for Sybil as well.

Traitor: 5
Traitorchan: 4
Double Agents: 2
Nuke Ops: 2
Rev: 2
Cult: 2
Changeling: 1
Wizard: 4
Malf: 1
Blob: 2
Meteor: 0
Extended: 0

If this is correct, then the extended rounds may have been admin enforced.

[Giacom]

Sibyl is likely different. Also the only type of players I see complaining about not being able to foresee the gametype chances, and to be able to use them to their advantage, is from players like Oldman.

[Oldman Robustin]

Sibyl is likely different. Also the only type of players I see complaining about not being able to foresee the gametype chances, and to be able to use them to their advantage, is from players like Oldman.

You're ridiculous if you think I account for shifts in weighting at all during my gameplay. Part of being robust means being able to anticipate and react to all threats, sitting around preparing for one or not preparing for the other is a ridiculous strategy and I can't imagine this ever being an issue.

As for extended = 0, I know this isn't the case because 2/3 of the extended rounds had almost no admin intervention. I can't imagine an admin would force extended and then let everyone shit themselves for an hour out of boredom.

All I'm saying is there should be more transparency and player input into round weighting. I'm considering taking a break again and it's almost purely because the last ~3/4 days have been nothing but extended, traitor, traitorling, ling, and DA whereas 1-2 weeks ago I know I was getting much more cult, nukeops, blob, and rev to shake up the monotony of traitor rounds.

My complaints could be completely baseless but I'll never know because the playerbase is forced to guess around one of the most important variables affecting their games. I would advocate for a more balanced distribution of gametypes but since I don't even know what they are right now, I am just completely speculating that blob/nukeops/cult/rev are underweighted right now.

[Steelpoint]

I agree that we should at least know what the weighting is, extended is boring most of the time and is usually only used as a blank canvas for admin events.

[Incoming]

The config option to publish the gametype weighting was added here http://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/2652

It's just not on for any of the servers.

[paprika]

It's not so much Scaredy trying to keep gametype weighting secret, hell, if he's around, you can just PM him to find what it is. I think it should be published so the community of the tg codebase can have more input on what they want to play, but please keep in mind that a LOT of gametype weighting has to do with how the gametypes play out themselves. Rev for example has to be at a low prob so it has the element of surprise. Malf has to be low so people aren't ;LYNCH THE AI every fucking round because there was 3 malf rounds in a row.

[Ikarrus]

SoS is very open to player feedback. If you want to know what the weights are or want to influence them, I'd suggest starting a poll and sending a PM to sos.

Last I checked, extended was 1 on sibyl.

Sybil and Artyom has different probabilities, because I requested that SoS change a few of the values on Sybil, which was likely not mirrored to artyom.

I'd post what they were but I'm not at my home machine right now.

[miggles]

no, and it should not be mirrored to artyom
artyom has a different average pop that should have different weighting to accommodate

[scaredofshadows]

Current probabilities on Sybil and Basil:

PROBABILITY TRAITOR 5
PROBABILITY TRAITORCHAN 4
PROBABILITY DOUBLE_AGENTS 3
PROBABILITY NUCLEAR 2
PROBABILITY REVOLUTION 2
PROBABILITY CULT 2
PROBABILITY CHANGELING 2
PROBABILITY WIZARD 3
PROBABILITY MALFUNCTION 1
PROBABILITY BLOB 2
PROBABILITY METEOR 0
PROBABILITY EXTENDED 1

[Incomptinence]

Sounds like Oldman is cursed then.

[Stickymayhem]

I've been playing a lot the last couple days and extended has cropped up a fair bit. Perhaps doubling the other weightings to reduce extended rounds would solve the problem.

[Giacom]

Yeah let's set wizard to 10, then extended will appear less often.

[Gun Hog]

Add monkey back to the rotation (See PR 4000) and meteor! They should exist, but rare!

[bandit]

Malf should not be as uncommon as extended.

[paprika]

It should definitely be 2.

[Steelpoint]

Here's my recommendation for a Sybil based gametype weighting.

Essentially we remove Extended from the rotation, remove Changeling from the rotation and slightly nerf Traitorchan by 1, nerf Traitor by 1 buff Malf to 2, nerf DA to 2. Buff Nuclear and Blob to 3

If the Monkey Mode PR gets pulled, I would give that a weighting of 1

PROBABILITY TRAITOR 4
PROBABILITY TRAITORCHAN 4
PROBABILITY DOUBLE_AGENTS 2
PROBABILITY NUCLEAR 3
PROBABILITY REVOLUTION 2
PROBABILITY CULT 2
PROBABILITY CHANGELING 0
PROBABILITY WIZARD 3
PROBABILITY MALFUNCTION 2
PROBABILITY BLOB 3
PROBABILITY METEOR 0
PROBABILITY EXTENDED 0
PROBABILITY MONKEY_MODE 1

[Kelenius]

I agree to everything except for changeling being removed. Maybe nuke to 2 to make it a little more special, but eh, not important. Don't remove changeling though, it has it own beauty, and the moment when you manage to organize at least a small team without traitors blowing up stuff and getting in your way is the best moment ever.

[Steelpoint]

Personal bias on the Changeling weighting since I don't personally like pure Changeling rounds and I think Traitor+Changeling rounds are better. But it can be increased to 1 or 2.

[paprika]

Changeling rounds are just slow, not necessarily bad. They should be the same weight as extended to basically replace extended rounds since that's how they typically go unless someone armblade murderbones like a badass. I think they'd be fine as 1 prob on sybil.

[Reimoo]

I agree to everything except for changeling being removed. Maybe nuke to 2 to make it a little more special, but eh, not important. Don't remove changeling though, it has it own beauty, and the moment when you manage to organize at least a small team without traitors blowing up stuff and getting in your way is the best moment ever.

Meanwhile the rest of the station is bored to tears because your alien friends spend two hours being 2sneaky4u.

Changeling is one of the most unpopular gamemodes for a reason. It's only enjoyable for maybe 4 or 5 players and the rest of the server is forced to put up with twiddling their thumbs until getting wordlessly killed in a maint hallway.

At least with traitors thrown in the mix the round keeps moving.

[Amelius]

Current probabilities on Sybil and Basil:

PROBABILITY TRAITOR 5
PROBABILITY TRAITORCHAN 4
PROBABILITY DOUBLE_AGENTS 3
PROBABILITY NUCLEAR 2
PROBABILITY REVOLUTION 2
PROBABILITY CULT 2
PROBABILITY CHANGELING 2
PROBABILITY WIZARD 3
PROBABILITY MALFUNCTION 1
PROBABILITY BLOB 2
PROBABILITY METEOR 0
PROBABILITY EXTENDED 1

I don't know about this. DA is quite obviously based on pollings and general OOC chat, the most unpopular gamemode along with changelings. Why is the probability so high? Meanwhile, nuke ops are, by far, the most popular gamemode, and yet they're rare as balls. Why not throw the server a bone? Here's what I propose for Sybil, though, tbh, cult needs to be 'fixed' (2 to convert, lower starting numbers, no saccing for soulstones [but still produceable from artificers], we back to convertcult now) first:

PROBABILITY TRAITOR 50
PROBABILITY TRAITORCHAN 40
PROBABILITY DOUBLE_AGENTS 10
PROBABILITY NUCLEAR 40
PROBABILITY REVOLUTION 20
PROBABILITY CULT 30
PROBABILITY CHANGELING 10
PROBABILITY WIZARD 30
PROBABILITY MALFUNCTION 20
PROBABILITY BLOB 20
PROBABILITY METEOR 1
PROBABILITY EXTENDED 10
PROBABILITY MONKEY 1

Just because. Malf needs to be a bit more common, I haven't even seen it in the last couple weeks while I've been on (non-admin event) it's so rare.

[Ikarrus]

Meteor is busted. Don't even consider it until it's confirmed to be fixed by coders.

Also we can argue this as much as we'd like, but it's all down to subjective opinions. A poll would be most appropriate here, imo.

[Durkel]

You've gotta be messed up in the head to actually want monkey mode back in rotation. Pls no.

[Stickymayhem]

I'd very much like extended to stay. Recently I've been making them event rounds to general success. I feel much better about using an existing extended around and then brainstorming with admins in the first twenty minutes or so than forcing one with an idea already in mind. It helps the event flow with the rest of the round rather than dominate it (which is fine and something I enjoy playing, but not something I enjoy running).

[miggles]

or you could just force extended instead of making everyone play the most boring gamemode when admins arent on

[Stickymayhem]

or you could just force extended instead of making everyone play the most boring gamemode when admins arent on

Even without admins around I'd be happy to keep extended in. Sybil rounds are rarely more than an hour long and it's a shame that many projects such as multiple singularity engines and end game research never really get finished without an extended round once a day. People tend to call the shuttle anyway out of boredom if nothing goes wrong.

[ColonicAcid]

extended on sibyl just asks for grief you know that right.
when people are bored they do stupid shit that gets them banned this is a well known thing.

[Incomptinence]

When the best thing about changeling is getting someone's hopes up that it is extended and they will witness some idiots get themselves banned, you have a real humdinger of a game mode there.

[Oldman Robustin]

My biggest problem is that traitor-based games make up close to 50% of all games (probably more once you account for lowpop rounds).

Maybe I'm just getting burnt out on SS13 again but I'd really like to see more cult/rev/nukeops... even blob would be preferable to a 3rd point in Double Agent.

Traitor (and by extention traitorling and DA) have gotten stale for me and I see no reason we can't work in more of the team-based antag stuff since (IMO) these tend to produce more exciting and memorable rounds than ebow+emag asshole #734902098.

As for extended, I still think it should be only forced by admins. If admins want to run an event that's perfectly fine, but I still haven't re-enabled captain since my last extended... it's just a nightmare to be in a position of responsibility while the round devolves into bored people acting like shit and you feel obligated as captain to stick around in case nukeops show up. It really is hellish.

[Swagile]

or you could just force extended instead of making everyone play the most boring gamemode when admins arent on

Even without admins around I'd be happy to keep extended in. Sybil rounds are rarely more than an hour long and it's a shame that many projects such as multiple singularity engines and end game research never really get finished without an extended round once a day. People tend to call the shuttle anyway out of boredom if nothing goes wrong.

"call the shuttle nothigns hapennijng" - crew
"ok" - captain


1 min later

shuttle has been recalled

"we don't need shuttle, ntohing is hpnenning" - other heads / troll greyshirt with cap id
"WTF!" - crew

1 minute later

"OH GOD THE SING IS LOOSE / PLASMA IN HALLWAYS / BOMB IN MEDBAY HALLWAY!" - crew



extended in a nutshell

[paprika]

OOC unrecallable shuttle vote at 2 hours or 1 hour 30 minutes on sybil. It's already coded and ported to /tg/ code on artyom, only people can recall it. Removing that part shouldn't be too hard.