Umbrage: Shadowling Redux (delayed?)

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:04 pm #241820

Bottom post of the previous page:

ADD JUMPSCARE HALLUCINATIONS YES

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:07 pm #241821

I was definitely pondering adding a targeted ability that slowly drives the target insane with mind-numbing horror. I guess that confirms it.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:11 pm #241823

>drives the target insane
You mean "makes the target meta that it's shadowling and beeline for the nearest way to seek treatment/cockblock the sling".

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:30 pm #241824

DemonFiren wrote:>drives the target insane
You mean "makes the target meta that it's shadowling and beeline for the nearest way to seek treatment/cockblock the sling".

Hopefully not, but realistically yes.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:30 pm #241825

Hallucinations have to come into play at some point. That, and the randoms screams

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:34 pm #241826

I mean, hallucinations could be implemented in such a way as to be a metabreaker, but if they have no practical gameplay value when used from stealth nobody is ever going to bother.
On that subject, delayed hallucination chems when?

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:36 pm #241827

They can be very disorienting, and some can even stun you. A hallucination/chill combo ability could be very powerful.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:39 pm #241829

Alright. let me preface this with the following heavy bias : I fucking hate shadowling, it was one of the most obnoxious antags to face and I'm very glad that it's gone.

That said, if you're thinking of re adding it I would like to make the following observations/suggestions.

1. The Shadowlings had far too many escape on a short cool down that combined with their self healing made them a absolute nightmare to finally kill. We mostly just paraphrased it with the old >reee >shit smoke >jaunt, which was unfortunately true. You could spend a huge amount time just wandering aimlessly in maintenance with a large group going back and forth.

2. Ranged para-sting is a absolute abomination, I would suggest either reworking it completely or just flat our removing it.

3. Thralls having a invisible stun that was able to be used at all times, even when cuffed combined with a free hive mind was ridiculous, Why do we keep giving out free all chat to antags? It didn't help that the only "downside" of having your mind totally fucked was that you had to wear a mask.

4. The shuttle extension was a bitch and did nothing but drag out rounds 9/10 times. If the best solution to shadowlings wasn't to just call it quits and leave then the shuttle wouldn't be called asap.

5. The deconversion method was via surgery, which led to most thralls just being killed instantly, Not a complaint here but just a observation.

6.They should probably have a different objective then just ascend, It was odd and the sprite for them was bad.

7. As a shadowling you spent 70% of round in maint just waiting for something to happen, it was pretty damn boring.

8. Please for the love of god don't release the remake you're doing and then move onto another project leaving Joan to handle the balance. Joan can't balance a game mode to save her life.

That's all I can really think of right now, but those were my biggest concerns regarding shadowling. It just wasn't fun to play security and having to deal with greytide/thrallings combined with mini wizards.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:00 am #241832

Durkel wrote:durkeeeeel

see this

Umbra fantatic wrote:
Spoiler:
Enthrall is thematically cool but in practice can be finnicky and annoying to work with. Although it did provide tension as you had to commit, I'll probably have it more interesting this time around. And I actually mean "interesting" as in "looks and sounds cooler". not "reworked 223412% of the way to Mars".
Hivemind Commune is replaced with Mindlink, which only functions in the same z-level.
Because of all the feedback regarding Glare, it's staying in the form of a function of Pass. With the mana system, it'll still be easily usable against single targets, and completely viable as a capture tool.
Veil is unchanged in all but name and spookiness.
Shadow Walk needs some definite touchups. I like your suggestion of only dark areas, but it'd be tough to code.
Icy Veins was a useless, frustrating ability that will be cut.
Collective Mind was an easier thing to do for my inexperienced self than have it check constantly for upgrades. It'll probably be automatic now.
Destroy Engines was rushed out and won't stay.
Blindness Smoke was meh in the first place. I don't like it.
I felt like Drain Life was one of the shadowling's more thematically strong abilities, and that it could have stayed had the rest been removed. A similar lifedrain effect will come in Umbrage but will be 200% spookier and fun to use.
Sonic Screech was the way slings stopped borgs. Pass will have that functionality.
Revival was pretty iffy, but it can now be balanced out by a high mana cost. I might also make it so braindeads become walking corpses, slaves to the umbrage.

this answers most of your problems because xhius is handling the problems

1. removal of icy veins, nerfing shadow walk, and looking at blindness smoke. No more 100000 escapes!

4. destroy engines gone, that's good

2. ranged parasting can stay because if you're looking for a shadow entity in a maintenance alone you deserve to get thralled you cuckold, it was 30 seconds cooldown before (could only stun one person, any more than that and you're fucked) and now it's on a mana system, so you'll be using it even less.

3. >able to be used at all times
45 second cooldown. I do agree that thralls shouldn't be able to use those in cuffs or while stunned. Byond that the new shadowlings use tentacle arms to stun, which cannot while cuffed so don't worry, it's fixed

6. ascension was cool as fuck but the sprites were shit

7. unrobust shadowling player lol

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:14 am #241857

Durkel wrote:Alright. let me preface this with the following heavy bias : I fucking hate shadowling, it was one of the most obnoxious antags to face and I'm very glad that it's gone.

That said, if you're thinking of re adding it I would like to make the following observations/suggestions.

1. The Shadowlings had far too many escape on a short cool down that combined with their self healing made them a absolute nightmare to finally kill. We mostly just paraphrased it with the old >reee >shit smoke >jaunt, which was unfortunately true. You could spend a huge amount time just wandering aimlessly in maintenance with a large group going back and forth.

2. Ranged para-sting is a absolute abomination, I would suggest either reworking it completely or just flat our removing it.

3. Thralls having a invisible stun that was able to be used at all times, even when cuffed combined with a free hive mind was ridiculous, Why do we keep giving out free all chat to antags? It didn't help that the only "downside" of having your mind totally fucked was that you had to wear a mask.

4. The shuttle extension was a bitch and did nothing but drag out rounds 9/10 times. If the best solution to shadowlings wasn't to just call it quits and leave then the shuttle wouldn't be called asap.

5. The deconversion method was via surgery, which led to most thralls just being killed instantly, Not a complaint here but just a observation.

6.They should probably have a different objective then just ascend, It was odd and the sprite for them was bad.

7. As a shadowling you spent 70% of round in maint just waiting for something to happen, it was pretty damn boring.

8. Please for the love of god don't release the remake you're doing and then move onto another project leaving Joan to handle the balance. Joan can't balance a game mode to save her life.

That's all I can really think of right now, but those were my biggest concerns regarding shadowling. It just wasn't fun to play security and having to deal with greytide/thrallings combined with mini wizards.

No problem, thank you for being honest about it. Although Armhulen has already said some things, I'll say some too:

Abilities are receiving a complete balance and rework pass.
I don't like it, but apparently a lot of people are, so I'm aiming for a compromise.
Lesser Glare was a huge mistake and I will not be repeating it.
Destroy Engines was also a huge mistake.
That's a player problem, but I'm not going to enable it. Deconversion will be different.
I think ascension is still a cool mechanic and it inspires both fear and awe. It will be staying, but sprites will be better if I can.
Depends on the round. I may let them walk around in the light for some time.
The situation with Joan is kind of a complex one. I didn't just dump it in her lap and say "this is urs now lol by", but she kind of picked it up herself and decided to balance it after I got burnt out. When I got interested in the game again and started making balance changes, she had so many PRs up that I couldn't do any, and I gave the reins entirely to her.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:10 am #241890

On an unrelated note, I've been having a lot of fun working on some ability concept. Here's what enthralling might turn into.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... r_will.mp4

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:17 am #241892

I think we should still consider allowing the shadowling to have a limited number of thralls. As I said before, no antag type revolves around selective conversion.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:29 am #241897

I could see it happening, but I'm not sure if it would encourage murderbone. I guess an antagonist murdering people isn't all that bad, though.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:18 am #241909

please don't, PLEASE DON'T

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:08 am #241917

I can see you're a big fan of the idea, Armhulen. Anywho, on an unrelated note, I'm planning to have enthralling reworked in a small way - the Devour Will ability puts the target into a pseudo-death state that lasts for five or so ticks. A different ability, called Veil Mind, lets out a shriek that converts people in that state nearby into veils (the new thralls). What are y'all's thoughts on that?

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:02 am #241945

I really love the idea of brainless shells of their former spacemen just wandering the halls. maybe when veils get killed they come back as normal people who wander the halls murmuring. it's basically like catatonic but moving and mumbling. Just throwing ideas out there, I like the conversion idea so far. maybe put the veil mind on a high cooldown and devour will make them catatonic (not wandering) until converted or deconverted, so the shadowling has to mass a bunch of comatose until they shriek and they wake up as a thrall

OH

OH BETTER IDEA MAKE DEVOUR WILL WRAP THEM UP IN A BLACK GOO WEB, SO THE SHADOWLING HAS A LAIR. ONCE IT WANTS TO CASH IN, IT SHRIEKS AND ALL THE WEBBED CORPSES AWAKEN!!

Screemonster · Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:34 am

Armhulen wrote:I really love the idea of brainless shells of their former spacemen just wandering the halls. maybe when veils get killed they come back as normal people who wander the halls murmuring. it's basically like catatonic but moving and mumbling. Just throwing ideas out there, I like the conversion idea so far. maybe put the veil mind on a high cooldown and devour will make them catatonic (not wandering) until converted or deconverted, so the shadowling has to mass a bunch of comatose until they shriek and they wake up as a thrall

OH

OH BETTER IDEA MAKE DEVOUR WILL WRAP THEM UP IN A BLACK GOO WEB, SO THE SHADOWLING HAS A LAIR. ONCE IT WANTS TO CASH IN, IT SHRIEKS AND ALL THE WEBBED CORPSES AWAKEN!!

the problem with that (which I'm reading as effectively taking control away from you and putting simplemob AI in your place) is that if it lasts for any decent length of time to "cash in on" later, people are just gonna alt-tab out or go get a snack while they wait to be activated or rescued, whichever comes first. So the shadowling will activate his trap card and shriek to call forth his minions as security stumble into its lair, only instead of springing a deadly trap sec will just focus-fire the ling to death and deal with the AFKers at their leisure.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:00 am #241958

the best laid plans of mice and men

Screemonster · Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:21 am

Now, if it was a means of killing people in a particular way or prepping corpses similar to ling husking that kicked the victims to deadchat so they could go do a ghost role or whatever, with the shriek turning them into AI hostile mob things for their ambush trap card, that would be terrifying as fuck

> stumble into lair full of bodies
> REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
> immediately beset by zombies

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:28 am #241963

walk into room

zombies

walk out of room

if only there was a way to force them to fight it

edit: maybe the shriek takes 10 seconds to prep and during that time the deadchat gets a popup to join as a zombie
and the ones who don't get taken are ai simplemobs? I don't know, your idea works just fine

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:54 pm #242054

As cool as that sounds, people seem to hate lair/base-based antagonists, as clockcult evidenced with its white ship use early on. Still, the ideas are appreciated, and any thoughts you have on possible abilities are taken into account, so keep them coming.

ChangelingRain · Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:09 pm

I think there's a distinction between "hate lair/base-based antagonists" and "the clockcult is using the white ship as a constantly-stunning unassaultable base and that's terrible"

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:39 pm #242093

and on second not-3am-thought, shadowling should always be moving. you should never 'KNOW' where the shadowling is.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:52 pm #242116

Exactly. The whole point of Shadowling is that it can jump out anywhere where it's dark, and even if you stay in the light, a thrall can come nab you.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:45 pm #242243

i thought about horror and I think it'll just make people frustrated if the horror mechanic is anything more than jumpscares and the spacemen randomly screaming every once in awhile

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:50 pm #242584

Ohw and the lamest thing of all:

Ascended slings were made immortal at one point to stuff that used to kill them such as bombs and singularities.

"But muh victory condition"

That's the entire point, you are insanely powerful and think nothing can stop you when suddenly an assistant rushes you holding 2 bags of holding.

Being stupidly powerful will always be more interesting than being immortal.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:07 pm #242593

I agree the specific patch to grant singulo immunity was pretty shit

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:11 pm #242595

yes, basically.
we should rework shadowling acension other than GUY GETS KILL FOR 5 MINUTE.

maybe the shadowling can turn into a blob that doesn't have any special blob pieces but grows extremely fast with red runes and shit or maybe it spawns shadowminions that latch onto other spacemen faces or something else completely wild but we need something interesting

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:26 pm #242604

Lord Singuloth must remain as the great equalizer. Gods and men equal before the vortex

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:36 pm #242609

Wyzack wrote:Lord Singuloth must remain as the great equalizer. Gods and men equal before the vortex

without saying. praise lord singuloth~

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:40 pm #242614

I guess I wasnt alone with this complaint then.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:45 pm #242617

To me it just feels so SS13, a bunch of psychotic barely qualified spacemen attempting to contain this marvel of destruction that violates the laws of time and space and is capable of utterly destroying otherworldy entities that defy physics themselves, and we use it to harness fucking electricity from the emitted radiation, mostly just to say that we can. Like a bunch of cavemen cooking meat on the heated CPU of a supercomputer

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:47 pm #242620

[Engineering] Poly squawks, "IT'S LOOSE!!"

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:31 pm

Wyzack wrote:Lord Singuloth must remain as the great equalizer. Gods and men equal before the vortex

Made a gitissue that megafauna can't get eaten but a fucking ELDER GOD CAN, got closed because m-muh stat tracking

Very mad

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:32 pm #242641

GOTTa GET DAT LEADERBOARD SCORES SON MLG XxXxDaNkWeEdNoScOpEsxXxX

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:37 pm #242643

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Wyzack wrote:Lord Singuloth must remain as the great equalizer. Gods and men equal before the vortex
Made a gitissue that megafauna can't get eaten but a fucking ELDER GOD CAN, got closed because m-muh stat tracking

Very mad

i'm actually extremely pissed

onleavedontatme · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:40 pm

At the point in time megafauna were made I still thought I was going to finish the necropolis, and a giant dungeon full of scary monsters would be incredibly dumb if you could just clear the whole thing with two bags of holding or by pulling a supermatter.

Stat tracking was added long after instant death immunity.

onleavedontatme · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:46 pm

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/17018

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19382

Literally four months later. I know from every other argument I have had about lavaland that objective stats wont really change peoples beliefs but it cant hurt to try.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:47 pm

If a spaceman has the talent to wield bags of holding or a supermatter as a weapon and not get vaporized/irradiated/burned to death, I say more power to him.

onleavedontatme · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:53 pm

>back self up in cloning
>go to pve area
>release singulo
>clone and pve area is done

wow exciting such skill

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:55 pm

Reminder that it takes whereabouts an hour to get bags of holding.

I would know, I wrote a R&D guide and you have to be basically at the dead end of research to get them.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:58 pm #242672

honestly i think the stat tracking is a neat thing to have, but only sofar as it does not prevent gameplay features. Maybe give Lord Singuloth his own kill list and have the sing always eat the loot

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:58 pm #242673

thread DERAILED

but it's fine because I'm just waiting for new shadowlingumbrage updates

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:58 pm

>Literally what I suggested

onleavedontatme · Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:00 pm

>making them immune for stat tracking is dumb
>they werent made immune for stat tracking
>what if we changed stat tracking so we could remove their immunity

Feedback forum makes me feel like I am losing my mind sometimes

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:05 pm #242679

Sorry Kor i cannot into reading comprehension apparently. Still though having the sing eat any potential loot prevents it from being used to cheese missions i think, if they ever do get added in

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:08 pm #242681

Wyzack wrote:Sorry Kor i cannot into reading comprehension apparently. Still though having the sing eat any potential loot prevents it from being used to cheese missions i think, if they ever do get added in

singuloth giveth, and singuloth taketh away

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:09 pm #242700

That and the fact that

you know

There's now a singularity running around on the mining level

Miners gonna be pissed

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:26 pm #242732

I take ONE day off and the thread completely derails. Never change, /tg/. Anywho, I've still done work in small increments but I'll continue in earnest once I get home
I'm still not sure how I want to handle enthralling yet, or thralls, for that matter.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:58 pm #242761

Since you wanted a tangible update, here's what you see and hear when becoming a veil:

Spoiler:

No, the Progenitor is not a god. It doesn't exist. The premise of Veil is implantation of false memories to induce brainwashing.

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:13 am #242786

but that's literally just the ratvar lore

oh, but i love the ratvar lore, so i like it!

Do you want shadowlings back?