Umbrage: Shadowling Redux (delayed?)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:14 pm #252577

Bottom post of the previous page:

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Longer casting time with more converts

Haha yeah man it sure does sound fun to spend a minute standing still mindraping a guy.

drawing it out makes it more fun ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:45 pm

Kor wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Seconded. Traitor takes up entirely too many of our rounds, it's getting stale.
Maybe you feel it's getting stale because you've played over three thousand rounds. If you've gotten to the point that you're bored by "core" SS13 and only desire endless BYOND combat you should consider taking a break from the game.

The meme that traitor rounds are any more fun or not stale than the others is dumb. They're just as repetitive, just in more ways. Bombing, dual esword murderbones, emagging everything, releasing singu, all common. Up close they're all different, but as you look further and further back the bigger pattern is revealed.

That isn't to say traitor is bad, it's great if you have a gimmick that isn't just "get your greentext and murderbone", but the other rounds that you see much less of are much more fun IMO.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:02 pm #252591

I'm not saying give the convert a cooldown. I mean make you question if you want to convert someone or not.

The "spell" I was referencing was just some useful buff like spreading an anti lightblub.

With the cults and rev they tend to convert everyone other than security/heads, then win. This way you'd convert your couple of people, maybe "seed" a few replacements that are converted if someone dies, then try to stealth fully complete whatever the objective is. Or you could decide you don't need your inductees to be empowered and just mass convert everything in sight.

On the topic of converting I feel like it should be instant and quick. None of this stun, drag off into main while removing the radio style stuff. Just require the person to be clickable, and in an area below some light limit?

If increasing time to convert someone seems like a good idea maybe the conversion takes time to process (see monkeys, facehuggers, hacking an APC), and while it's running the shadowling has some powers unable to be used. This would be a good way to encourage smallish teams, while still giving a lengthening convert timer.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:44 pm #252605

i like the timed conversion because it leaves the shadowling vulnerable and it isn't like other conversions

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:16 pm #252615

I know that the whole "conversion weakens the group" thing was poorly received in clockcult, but the mechanic could have some merit in an asymmetrical conversion mode like this since the shadowling gets to decide who to convert, and how many to convert. It's by far the best way to fight conversion spam. Only after a certain point though, like five thralls. Of course, this won't work if we decide to make winning thrall-based.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:18 pm #252617

we should though.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:23 pm #252619

I've been giving some thought to how I want abilities to work. I want lots of variety and uses from each ability, but I don't want to dump every ability on them - I want umbrages to have to make choices in their toolkit, but I don't know how yet. Should they up their max psi from each draining and be able to spend it on abilities? Should they have a changeling-like menu where they have certain resources (call it Mental Prowess or something) that they change into different abilities, and they can respec after every draining? What do you think?

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:27 pm #252623

They drain people and spend the points on abilities. No respecs, they have to choose carefully

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:29 pm

Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:44 pm #252631

Interesting idea. +1 on thrall trading

Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:37 pm

ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.

>thrall deconverted
>HELP SHADOWLINGS IN [XYZ] REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:44 pm #252652

but more like

>deconverted

>GLARE

>MURDER

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:44 pm #252653

PKPenguin321 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.
>thrall deconverted
>HELP SHADOWLINGS IN [XYZ] REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

That's the point. You can instantly convert a desirable target, at the cost of almost certainly outing yourself.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:17 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.
>thrall deconverted
>HELP SHADOWLINGS IN [XYZ] REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>Thrall deconverted
>Cultslur and brain damage makes everything gibberish
>AI tracks to see them stumbling down the hallway
>Sec is called and drags them to medbay
>Eventually they choke out that the sling is in sci maint
>Sec and the crew rushes to sci maint
>Find one guy there
>FOR THE DARK GOD
>Sci maint is now explode
>It was all a trap from the word go

Don't believe everything people tell you

Dagdammit · Post by **Dagdammit** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:48 am #252759

Wouldn't slings just tell the bad thrall to kill themselves, and/or report to maint for their murdering?

Xhuis, want sprites for anything yet?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:36 pm #252808

Dagdammit wrote:Xhuis, want sprites for anything yet?

Nothing yet. Nothing is final and I'd rather not have you sprite something super complex and then scrap it a day later. I'll keep you posted.

Post by **Thunder11** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:47 pm #252850

ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.

>Keep convertion cow cuffed to a chair in maintenance and guarded by another thrall
>Release him to convert instantly, then go reconvert him

Bam not so interesting gameplay

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:54 pm #252852

Thunder11 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.
>Keep convertion cow cuffed to a chair in maintenance and guarded by another thrall
>Release him to convert instantly, then go reconvert him

Bam not so interesting gameplay

Slings work in groups memba? You could have 2 or 3 slings barricaded in maint with naked thralls cuffed to chairs with a third guy just zipping up and down the halls brainwashing people instantl while the slings back at the base just keep rewashing the guys they got. It's be like cult bases times 100.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:22 pm

Thunder11 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Idea: Converting is thrall-based in how long it takes, however you can instantly complete (read: lower the time it takes by like a minute) it by releasing one of your thralls.

Say I'm shadowling and I have three thralls, but one is an incompetent idiot and I'm correctly converting a sec guy. I can release the idiot and instantly complete the conversion on the sec guy, while the idiot is inflicted with heavy brain damage, hallucinations, cultslur, and confusion but isn't thralled any more. Idiot has every reason to go screaming to sec, and I have some options on what to do.

My options are to send my thralls to silence the idiot before he recovers, nab him again now that he's weakened, let him go and lure people into my department that's now a deathtrap, or let him go 'cause he's already escaped.

Bam interesting gameplay.
>Keep convertion cow cuffed to a chair in maintenance and guarded by another thrall
>Release him to convert instantly, then go reconvert him

Bam not so interesting gameplay

>Shadowlings having caged up thralls to be tortured for their own gain

>Be a round
>Sec bumbles into a maint base
>Two people chained to chairs, screaming and gibbering for release
>Three thralls pop out that were guarding the pain cage
>Firefight ensues while the shadowling rushes back to help
>This isn't a rad scenario

Also playing like that would be totally valid, but it's only a matter of time before someone catches you or one of your boys hovering conspicuously in one location in maint and how people keep coming and going from there.

So the trade then becomes do you want to establish a base and be more likely found and your thralls killed, or do you want to wader around detached from each other where you'll almost never be located?

And if reconverting becomes such a huge issue (don't think it will be though) then render people with too much brain damage unconvertable and have deconverting deal increasing levels of brain damage. Then, if you want to make a pain cage you have to constantly be stealing manninol.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:12 pm #252889

Having one shadowling with (no thrall thus almost no powers) running around enthralling people and moving them to a secondary base where there one attempting to ascend makes them theirs sounds amazing. The teamwork required to agree to be the lesser powered guy in this situation is entertaining too.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:28 pm #252922

Keeping disposable thralls bucklecuffed wouldn't be very smart, considering that you need all the thralls you can get to go into light areas

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:44 pm #252925

that's for shadowlings to decide not the coder

and decisions are good

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:04 am #252971

Whenever someone sacrifices a thrall for an instant convert, it's going to be a snap judgement to acquire a high value target. Either the thrall is going to be in an inconvenient place and out you, or you can keep a thrall restrained at all times for the purpose, but they'll be dead weight. This will make for good gameplay.

Lumbermancer · Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:49 pm

WRONG FUCKING THREAD

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:51 pm #253610

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:52 pm #253611

yeah man because umbrage is going to be an antag that has a weapon that cuts off legs and blocks ranged attacks

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:12 pm #253622

I'm changing umbrages to glassblowers. It's too late. You've started a snowball.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:30 pm #253924

Small update since it's been a while. Umbrages are getting something that clockcult never had.

UI!

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:49 pm #253926

Something that clock cult never had?

So, uh, fun?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:22 pm #253933

You guys are very fond of bashing Joan's gamemode in an unrelated thread, huh? Take it to the actual clock cult feedback thread, not here.

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:25 pm #253945

Poor Joan. On the other hand, fuck yeah! I'm getting the being vibes.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:11 pm

>PSI web
>Buying stuff with points you get from converts, presumably

DO NOT WANT

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:34 pm #253961

ShadowDimentio wrote:>PSI web
>Buying stuff with points you get from converts, presumably

DO NOT WANT

What's so bad about the PSI part? As for Lucidity, it currently comes from draining people with Devour Will, it doesn't require you to convert them.

Armhulen wrote:being

I still intend to do that, but I wasn't experienced enough when I started it. It'll be on the back burner for a while.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:38 pm

I just prefer systems where stuff is unlocked automatically.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:40 pm #253964

Actually, I should mention. With the ability variety I'm trying to make, thralling will hopefully be entirely optional. A viable play style but not required, hopefully.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:59 pm #254671

the main part of the problem with sling glare is that there was basically zero counter. You sling jaunt, take out the lights while you're still invisible, then as soon as you appear you sling glare and it's GGNORE for the victim. In fact, not long before the removal entirely, you could sling glare WHILE jaunting, thus making it completely impossible to see coming or counter.

Since the glare is LOS targeted, you really don't even have a way for people to escape it at all even if the sling did pop in and gave you a second of reaction time to deal with it.

as someone who figured out how to be robust with slings, I know full well that anyone who figured out the game mode in detail was generally impossible to beat, and after you had a few thralls you were pretty much unstoppable anyway since it only took a few people to be able to snowball and get you all the thralls you wanted.

Dagdammit · Post by **Dagdammit** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:06 pm #254740

Xhuis wrote:Actually, I should mention. With the ability variety I'm trying to make, thralling will hopefully be entirely optional. A viable play style but not required, hopefully.

Color me interested.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:54 am #254843

Dagdammit wrote:
Xhuis wrote:Actually, I should mention. With the ability variety I'm trying to make, thralling will hopefully be entirely optional. A viable play style but not required, hopefully.
Color me interested.

Rather than giving a set of abilities that complement "YOU THRALL AND YOU LIKE IT", I'm trying to give a lot of possibilities with more than one use, like changeling but with more fun ones. In changeling, you can go stealthy, or you can beat the hell out of everything with an armblade. I'm trying to expand that flexibility for umbrages; they'll have stuff for stealth, have stuff for loud, deception, mobility, and pretty much anything else. The key goal for umbrage isn't "enthrall" - it's "use Devour Will and drain people's lucidity". If you want to be really annoying and uncatchable but die in two hits from a laser gun, you can do that. If you want to specialize in taking out entire groups of people and dragging off one person screaming into the dark while the rest fumble with their lights, you can do that too. Or maybe you want to step into the light, walking straight into a mob of security with the pain of the light burn empowering you while you beat them down and resist a blast of taser shots. That works too.

On a related note, I'm kind of lost for ability ideas, so I'm taking everything.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:12 am

I had a power idea

Meld: The shadowling hides in the shadow of a random person on screen, completely unbeknownst to them. This ability allows the shadowling to travel through lit areas safely and stealthily. The ability only works when a target isn't in complete darkness however, and the only way to force a shadowling out of someone's shadow is to place them in total darkness.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:53 am #255230

Since I like dripfeeding updates to people, here's something I've come up with recently. Behold the Simulacrum.

Spoiler:

In the future, when upgrades are a thing, I'll give it possible upgrades like one that makes it follow you and mirror your actions perfectly so that people can't tell which one is the real you, and maybe one that lets it fight for you and cause a ruckus while you escape.

ShadowDimentio wrote:I had a power idea

Meld: The shadowling hides in the shadow of a random person on screen, completely unbeknownst to them. This ability allows the shadowling to travel through lit areas safely and stealthily. The ability only works when a target isn't in complete darkness however, and the only way to force a shadowling out of someone's shadow is to place them in total darkness.

That's pretty good, I'll look into that.

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:17 am #255236

those sprites are great, man

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:19 am #255238

Armhulen wrote:those sprites are great, man

For the abilities? I'm not making them myself, I'm not that skilled! I'm using edited versions of sprites from game-icons.net which is licensed under Creative Commons, so no worries about that. I think I did okay with the umbrage sprite though, which I did completely by myself. Attributions will be going in a .txt file or similar once I've wrapped up the mode.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:09 am

Got two new ones

Plane Sight (A pun on hiding in plain sight and void shenanigans): The shadowling chooses a target and for thirty seconds the shadowling is completely invisible to them.

Useful both offensively and defensively, but only in 1V1. Play smart!

Entropy: When activated normally, all lights are disabled in range for a short while same as the old shadowling power. If used while the [INHAND THINGY] is active, the shadowling will EMP and stun (or just deal a shitload of stamina damage, preferably a stun) on a melee hit on a creature. If the target is a APC then all lights connected to it will overload throwing revenant lightning before blowing them and will completely drain and turn off recharging for the APC.

Don't let the shadowling reach the APCs or else it'll give you a bad time and make it's life much easier.

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:32 am #255261

power idea if you're going down the thrall path: armchair shadow (not the best name but if you got better ideas)

makes you insanely weak, but upgrades all your thralls to the evolved ones from original shadowling. both permanant.

also make it so if the shadowling dies, all other thralls either go catatonic or wither away and die.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:56 am #255269

ShadowDimentio wrote:Got two new ones

Plane Sight (A pun on hiding in plain sight and void shenanigans): The shadowling chooses a target and for thirty seconds the shadowling is completely invisible to them.

Useful both offensively and defensively, but only in 1V1. Play smart!

Entropy: When activated normally, all lights are disabled in range for a short while same as the old shadowling power. If used while the [INHAND THINGY] is active, the shadowling will EMP and stun (or just deal a shitload of stamina damage, preferably a stun) on a melee hit on a creature. If the target is a APC then all lights connected to it will overload throwing revenant lightning before blowing them and will completely drain and turn off recharging for the APC.

Don't let the shadowling reach the APCs or else it'll give you a bad time and make it's life much easier.

those are both kind of ridiculously powerful, especially when together. There's not a lot of counterplay to being invisibly attacked and killed, especially if you can just EMP Stun them afterwards, it's guaranteed GG NO RE. That's most of the reason ninjas are insanely powerful single antags.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:08 am

Yakumo_Chen wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Got two new ones

Plane Sight (A pun on hiding in plain sight and void shenanigans): The shadowling chooses a target and for thirty seconds the shadowling is completely invisible to them.

Useful both offensively and defensively, but only in 1V1. Play smart!

Entropy: When activated normally, all lights are disabled in range for a short while same as the old shadowling power. If used while the [INHAND THINGY] is active, the shadowling will EMP and stun (or just deal a shitload of stamina damage, preferably a stun) on a melee hit on a creature. If the target is a APC then all lights connected to it will overload throwing revenant lightning before blowing them and will completely drain and turn off recharging for the APC.

Don't let the shadowling reach the APCs or else it'll give you a bad time and make it's life much easier.
those are both kind of ridiculously powerful, especially when together. There's not a lot of counterplay to being invisibly attacked and killed, especially if you can just EMP Stun them afterwards, it's guaranteed GG NO RE. That's most of the reason ninjas are insanely powerful single antags.

Plane Sight only works on one person, so don't go into maint alone. Heck, don't go into maint at all unless you have very good gear and a pal, lest the shadowlings turbofuck you.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:10 am #255278

that doesn't even have to be just maint. It's like the original shadowling, all one needs to do is get in the same room as you are and it's game over, no spot check allowed.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:11 am

If the lights around you start flickering and you feel a presence weigh on your mind, you probably want to run. Fast. If the shadowling can't click on you they can't stun you.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:17 am #255281

If I were a sling I'd just stun first then turn the lights off. Damage is easy to fix (especially with slings), Why give your foe the oppurtunity to know you're coming?

CORRECTION: Get into melee range invisibly, then enable the stun power.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:20 am

A good strategy, however it falls apart if your foe is paying attention and notices the black shape rush across the room straight at them, or worse case scenario there's more than one guy. Then you've just extremely overextended and the other guy simply pursuing you into maint could kill you, and if he for whatever reason has a gun it's GAME OVER MAN.

Note: They have to be on your screen to use Plane Sight, obviously, since it's a targeted spell. Thus meaning you have to either reveal yourself for a moment and then cast it, cut the lights off to approach without being seen yourself but still making your presence known, or use Meld to hide in someone's shadow to nab them silently once they're alone.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:25 am #255285

If you're completely invisible to them, they're not going to see the black shape running across the room to kill them until they're already stunned and dead.

I also want to note that EMP is absolutely the most overpowered thing in the game and the last thing I want is to give another antag a power to teleport into my AI core and disable my APC with one click, not that it's hard to kill AIs even with the APC on.

Do you want shadowlings back?