AI mutant rulings

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FantasticFwoosh
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AI mutant rulings

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:27 pm #263064

Features system is too bare bones to make rulings vs mutants even applicable when you have to consult a admin whether something is even valid to kill.

Its like saying red lizard mutants (mutant skin color to generic green skin) with curved horns are valid because of a lore reason and (there is little to no way you can enforce such a bare bones cosmetic thing when there is no fundamental difference) despite being no in game reasoning to distinguish them just because its not fleshed out. Its neither cosmetic surgery that can be changed or altered without literally injecting a mulligan chemical.

Genetics powers can be directly removed via force & usually have some kind of selling point feature as to why they are dangerous & are largely visible, which is why they are a positive application of discriminating that they are valid to the AI, concealable features are harder and when you base it entirely on the finer points of cosmetics, without additional data a player has to look carefully at a deceptive sprite.

> Without a real actual mutant feature system that is both clear and concise it doesn't work and the AI relies entirely on viewing via a camera or a picture and then making a judgement since they can't just [shift] click for a detailed readout of flavour text & items and who said person is.

> Make the features system bigger.


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Lumbermancer
 
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:46 pm #263067

Mutation = SE.

Skin colour = UI UE.
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FantasticFwoosh
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:59 pm #263070

Lumbermancer wrote:Mutation = SE.

Skin colour = UI UE.


Lizard horns/scales on that list? I might just be forgetting but yes you point out you could go to the effort to correct all lizards to be base green, it but should it matter in terms of policy on cosmetic = valid vs functional reasons?


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Wyzack
 
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby Wyzack » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:26 pm #263110

I am going to be that guy and respond to yet another obvious bait post.

The code is irrelevant. Please allow me to educate you with this helpful guide on humanity

Humans === Human (obviously)
Lizards === Nonhuman
Catgrills === Nonhuman
Plasmemes === Nonhuman
Flypeople === Nonhuman
Humans who are hulked === Nonhuman, until the hulk mutation is gone at which point they become human again

Basically any other edge case is also non-human. If you as an asimov AI or borg harm a human or help any of the listed non-humans at the expense of a human in need you will probably get bwoinked. I do not give even the slightest shit what the code says, these are the official admin rulings.
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby Cobby » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:02 pm #263150

Wyzack wrote:I am going to be that guy and respond to yet another obvious bait post.

The code is irrelevant. Please allow me to educate you with this helpful guide on humanity

Humans === Human (obviously)
Lizards === Nonhuman
Catgrills === Nonhuman
Plasmemes === Nonhuman
Flypeople === Nonhuman
Humans who are hulked === Nonhuman, until the hulk mutation is gone at which point they become human again

Basically any other edge case is also non-human. If you as an asimov AI or borg harm a human or help any of the listed non-humans at the expense of a human in need you will probably get bwoinked. I do not give even the slightest shit what the code says, these are the official admin rulings.


These are in a graphic on the rule page for the unaware.
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FantasticFwoosh
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:25 pm #263160

Im not baiting you in any way or form, im trying to raise discussion in a broader sense rather than *that other thing* that was mentioned. If anything i want to keep you here to talk actually constructively.

Angels, valid or non-valid (valid i imagine)? Mentioning because their race physically changes as a requirement when the wings are equipped as a transition into a mutant non-human status like being struck with the catify admin command, this is just your life now to be valid. A admin could virtually death sentence a catified hostile person to a overzealous AI with such intervention if they aren't first confused by coding interfaces telling them they are human otherwise.

> Assuming most players never read the policy indepth or contribute in the forums and are just herded along by occasional bwoinks saying (stop) by admins.

> Tell me why Kor should bother with Mutant parts are removed if you roll a head job, as opposed to being barred from these jobs #24592 because i want to hear you talk in reasonable depth about the advantages of not just using the hard race block system when we already have a way to swap races via something not to dissimilar from the below code making body updates, checking roundstart (if head command role, remove mutant features etc.) jobs etc for just removing parts then going from there.

Code: Select all
/datum/species/angel/on_species_gain(mob/living/carbon/human/H, datum/species/old_species)
   ..()
   if(H.dna && H.dna.species &&((H.dna.features["wings"] != "Angel") && ("wings" in H.dna.species.mutant_bodyparts)))
      H.dna.features["wings"] = "Angel"
                H.update_body()

And here's something below i've cobbled up *probably not masterfully & wrong*) to try to demonstrate, if at any such time becoming a catperson within the game at a later stage likely through button pressing.
Code: Select all
/datum/species/meuwman/on_species_gain(mob/living/carbon/human/H, datum/species/old_species)
   ..()
   if(H.dna && H.dna.species &&((H.dna.features["ears"] != "Meuwman") && ("ears" in H.dna.species.mutant_bodyparts)))
      H.dna.features["ears"] = "Meuwman"
                H.update_body()

> And of course additional code onto after that defining the mutant body part of a tail and how both must be removed to revert back to a base human etc etc.

Below is the literal code from Kor's PR expressing what i mean, his tweak to 'buff' them by removing them by head roles is kind of irrelevant contextually to being a catperson or a human, skating around the issue and works in both schemes & concepts.
Code: Select all
 
+   if(config.enforce_human_authority && src in command_positions)
+      H.dna.features["tail_human"] = "None"
+      H.dna.features["ears"] = "None"
+      H.regenerate_icons()


What benefit at all does half baking spaghetticode rather than a clean & informative seperate .dm like angels for the same functionality of a defined & identifiable mutant achieve?

Putting this out there partially for any more future 'edge cases' of human mutant parts in such a way that somebody may want to make both inward and outward bellbuttons for cosmetics that then singles people out as non-human mutants to the AI. A AI cannot personally inspect the torso of every human for a mutant difference that might only be one or two pixels wide, and even most players involved with the game can't and it holds back the mutant part system into being very restrictive and ever expanding in a meaningful way.

Also calling out lazyness since angel code i would argue is well put together for a mutant or subspecies variant of a human and a example to lead by.


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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby TehSteveo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:38 pm #263168

You seem lost. Here's a link to coding forums for discussion of code.
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby ChangelingRain » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:56 pm #263171

Code doesn't matter, as this is what we choose to enforce as policy: We've chosen to rule catpeople as nonhuman. They happen to use the mutant parts system, but something using the mutant parts system does not automatically mark it as a mutant nonhuman.
It's like saying each lizard with a different stripe pattern is a different species of lizard that an AI could thus choose to ignore(ie; count as nonhuman) with a "lizards are human" law.
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby Qbopper » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:45 pm #263272

Is Fwoosh STILL trying to get admins to consider catpeople human via code quirks?
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby oranges » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:59 am #263380

FantasticFwoosh wrote:> Tell me why Kor should bother with Mutant parts are removed if you roll a head job, as opposed to being barred from these jobs #24592 because i want to hear you talk in reasonable depth about the advantages of not just using the hard race block system when we already have a way to swap races via something not to dissimilar from the below code making body updates, checking roundstart (if head command role, remove mutant features etc.) jobs etc for just removing parts then going from there.

What benefit at all does half baking spaghetticode rather than a clean & informative seperate .dm like angels for the same functionality of a defined & identifiable mutant achieve?


Since this will be moved to the coding forum at some point, allow me to explain, modern races and mutations utilise compostion over inheritance, a method where by the human type path mob contains datums that provide unique behaviour that define that mutant race, rather than a subtype class that overrides the parent behaviour and adds new behaviour.

The reasons to switch to such a system are many but the arguments have been made in many forums in software engineering discipline, here is a quick primer for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compositi ... nheritance

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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby oranges » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:59 am #263381

also the cat ear stuff not being cleanly seperated into it's own file is a developer choice, not one forced by the system being used.

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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby DanteRU » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:57 am #263452

I think i saw this discussion before. Again, coding and appearance doesn't matter, only lore and rules matter. Mutants can be coded however coder wants, but if in lore it says, that cathuman is a human who attached cat ears and tail with superglue - it's human, if it says that it's a mutation or different species - it's nonhuman.

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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:35 pm #263521

I understand that this thread was moved, but I can't follow the OP's logic here at all. Are you saying the system should be better on the backend? I don't disagree with that, but it's mob code. Mobs are complicated and confusing in the best of cases. If someone wants to work on them, that's great, but a lot of people wisely stay away from them as much as they can.
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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby Screemonster » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:19 pm #263602

Also, if you're literally wanting to make mutantraces have a different filepath to humans and be a different type of object, then you're in for a bad time when you want to get into genetic alteration or teleporter malfunctions.

Like, take a look at how a bolt of change works.
tl;dr in order to change your mob from one type to another, it creates an entirely new random mob, transfers you into it, and deletes your old one.

Is it even possible to change an object to a different path on the fly like what fwoosh is asking for?

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Re: AI mutant rulings

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:00 pm #263612

It is plenty possible it'd just be pointless and worse than what we have.


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