/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

So I was watching the Cult test on Northstar.

I think the design itself is really good, except for the design philosophy around the maint.

The maint is huge, and really interesting, as a counter point it also has persistent insta-kill threats like pumped up maint grilles and mines, these are randomly placed so even crew familiar with the station and equipped with insuls would find clearing these threats difficult, and that's just the grilles. For many roles maint isn't an optional threat like lavaland, due to specific antags Sec, paramedics and engineers going into maint will be mandatory.

A few issues with this is:

1: Insta-kill threats remove a lot of player agency and enjoyment, it doesn't give the player the option to learn and adapt-in round. Because maint is so large and dangerous the chances of them being found is smaller too, resulting in more players being effectively round-removed by talking the wrong step and dying. Not fun. A number of players seem to die from maint, think chasms in lavaland but in narrow hallways. Learning how to navigate maint at all safely will take many rounds of insta-death and frustration. Insuls help, but there are also land mines and the like.

2: These instakill threats don't affect things like a blob, which is already absurdly strong on this station.

3: These instakill threats can remove antags (which commonly use maint) before they can even add conflict to the station

4: These insta-kill threats stop security and players from effectively engaging any threat within maint (especially a blob or cult)

5: Some of these traps will catch multiple players (I saw a grille at a corner killed two different players due to pathing)

The philosphy around maint seems to be that it needs to be dangerous if its going to be as strong as it is, however the way these dangers are implemented is more focussed on instantly killing the player for a mistake, than to give them a challenging in-round experience.

My advice is to reduce the lethality of these threats, or to replace the insta-kill threats with mobs, atmospheric threats, one-time explosives and other hazards so that players can interact with and face these challenges in a more enjoyable manner. Current philosophy of navigate it perfectly or instantly die greatly detracts from a round making it less about player interaction and more about players overcoming the environment. (which is what lavaland and exploration is for, and they do it far better)

I've removed some grilles for now, and I'm going to workshop some different persistent maint threats. I don't like kilo's style of "fill it with mobs" that are the same every round.

I like dangerous maints, but mobs are usually not the answer. The whole "maint spiders" station trait does a great job of doing mobs, the rest should be dangerous to traverse like open space to fall into, unique traps with activated levers, etc etc. Needs more coded support.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:47 am I like dangerous maints, but mobs are usually not the answer. The whole "maint spiders" station trait does a great job of doing mobs, the rest should be dangerous to traverse like open space to fall into, unique traps with activated levers, etc etc. Needs more coded support.

I'm relenting that grilles are kinda lazy. I'm keeping a few but they're less persistent. I genuinely kind of like the landmines and bear traps, they sell the North Star as this old ship, possibly a battleground before. I'd like if I could have like one random turret spawn in maintenance? But yeah, what armhulen describes sounds peak North Star

Like with medbay where the expectations of players were raised and as such they raised themselves to the expectations, more dangerous maints will teach players to be more cautious

I think maints should stay deadly, but I think landmines, bear traps, and grilles aren't enough. I also don't want mob spam. I've made it as dangerously multiz as is reasonable though.

I don't think any maint should be filled with things that instantly kill you if you incorrectly step in a narrow dimly lit hallway. Chasms are already a salt mine enough. Dangerous is a fine goal, things that instantly round end are going to cause more frustration than enjoyment.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:30 am Like with medbay where the expectations of players were raised and as such they raised themselves to the expectations, more dangerous maints will teach players to be more cautious

That's sort of my point. Medbay doesn't round remove you for making a mistake, you can raise the difficulty without having the only stakes be instant death.

You aren't round removed by stepping on a bear trap or falling down a hole, you can still be revived and you can easily be found with or without sensors

Issues 2 electric booglaoo

1. Please stop with the red lights, they hurt my eyes, I hate them, every round I have to de-red at least one area so I can stand to be in it
2. Exploration drone room only has one sat (down from two) includes no fuel pellets or spare board
3. I disagree with the decision to put the ore silo in the QM's bedroom, it goes in the vault for a reason

1. no it's aesthetic
2. Will add more stuff
3. I refuse to put it in the vault because it's not accessible enough and too safe. I've moved it to their office and given the QM blast doors though.

Played a few rounds yesterday and here were my observations:

1. Janitor closet has no buckets, so at round start you have to go across the hallway and print out a bucket.
2. Janitor closet is also really sparse on supplies. A single lighttube box, a single mop, and a single cleaner grenade hurts a lot. Usually janitor closets have two or more lighttube boxes, two mops, and three or so cleaner grenades. The beartraps and mousetraps are fine, but the actual cleaning supplies are a bit sparse.
3. Some hallway indicators (either signs or by using floor tiles) to show where departments are on a floor would be really helpful for people who are new to the map. The best guide you have is running through hallways and/or guestimating if a department is on a floor based on the other departments that are named on the elevator floor GUI.
4. Escape pod bay is kinda too hidden. The signs don't help as much as you'd hope they would. A decent chunk of the crew died in a round yesterday because NO ONE knew where the escape pods were. Part of it is because people are still getting used to it and all. Escape pod bay looks fantastic it's just a bit too hidden.
5. Some hallway areas are super dark, even during daytime lighting.

Some positive notes:

1. I love the map, it's a bit cramped here and there but I enjoy it a lot.
2. Dining room looks really nice, I haven't played a fullpop round yet, but I imagine it's even better when there are people in the dining room.
3. Each floor being a group of departments is neat
4. (again) the Escape pod bay looks nice. It feels purposeful as opposed to most other maps where the escape pods are kinda just glued onto parts of the station.
5. Maints feel genuinely dangerous and labyrinthian. I like it. I do wonder if things like cult bases could actually exist in them currently since they seem a bit too cramped for that.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:35 pm Played a few rounds yesterday and here were my observations:

1. Janitor closet has no buckets, so at round start you have to go across the hallway and print out a bucket.
2. Janitor closet is also really sparse on supplies. A single lighttube box, a single mop, and a single cleaner grenade hurts a lot. Usually janitor closets have two or more lighttube boxes, two mops, and three or so cleaner grenades. The beartraps and mousetraps are fine, but the actual cleaning supplies are a bit sparse.
3. Some hallway indicators (either signs or by using floor tiles) to show where departments are on a floor would be really helpful for people who are new to the map. The best guide you have is running through hallways and/or guestimating if a department is on a floor based on the other departments that are named on the elevator floor GUI.
4. Escape pod bay is kinda too hidden. The signs don't help as much as you'd hope they would. A decent chunk of the crew died in a round yesterday because NO ONE knew where the escape pods were. Part of it is because people are still getting used to it and all. Escape pod bay looks fantastic it's just a bit too hidden.
5. Some hallway areas are super dark, even during daytime lighting.

Some positive notes:

1. I love the map, it's a bit cramped here and there but I enjoy it a lot.
2. Dining room looks really nice, I haven't played a fullpop round yet, but I imagine it's even better when there are people in the dining room.
3. Each floor being a group of departments is neat
4. (again) the Escape pod bay looks nice. It feels purposeful as opposed to most other maps where the escape pods are kinda just glued onto parts of the station.
5. Maints feel genuinely dangerous and labyrinthian. I like it. I do wonder if things like cult bases could actually exist in them currently since they seem a bit too cramped for that.

I greatly appreciate the positive feedback and incredibly constructive criticism. The pod bay has an absolute shitload of signposting but I've added EVEN MORE SIGNPOSTING leading directly to it all on the third deck.

Janitor's office has been given some goodies.

Yeah, the hallways got hit by the lighting changes and I've yet to see too much of it. I want to have the map run some more before I make any changes to how halls are lit.

Every floor has EVEN MORE SIGNAGE I SWEAR THERE IS A POINT WHERE IT'S NOT ENOUGH SIGNAGE AND A POINT WHERE PEOPLE NEED TO OPEN THEIR EYES.

With the help of people in the North Star discord thread, I've opened up Ordnance to hopefully make it a bit easier?

Hello

Just a quick note - Love the map, and not least because I love what's outside it - one of my favorite things about Northstar is exploring space as it made the terrain much more interesting. Regardless, earlier I played a round on it and it was normal, but something changed; on the round going on right now on Manuel, no Z levels above 8 are present (verified with a jacobs ladder) and not a single space ruin spawned at all. I'm hoping it's some kind of bug and reporting it as such - if intentional, well, disregard then, though I will say I definitely feel like it would be a negative change and something I hope would be reversed.

Anyways, thanks for making an awesome map!

I notice that I'm a little overwhelmed by the map at the moment. I've been updating it once or twice a day for a while, and a lot of really boring (make it more like metastation, why is X different, why isn't Y just normal) criticisms have left me a bit burnt out. Right now, I'm just going to let the map sit until maptainers take a look over it and either merge it or request changes.

I agree 100%

The only major thing I have to mention is that the pods sometimes don't work during an emergency. During red/delta alert or whatever, when you can launch them, it will count down after hitting depart, and then it won't do anything.

Still absolutely love the map!

Dont let the "make it more like Meta" people get you down - they will learn to love it. Not every damn station should be a bunch of boxes around a boring tube. Again, thanks for brining something new and creative. Frankly, I take issue with the whole "design by community" culture - make your vision happen and it will almost certainly be better than something that is greatly influenced by Discord trolls and such.

These two chambers on the right seem to be missing sensors, the computers underneath them aren't reporting anything

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:38 am Northstar missing sensors.JPG

These two chambers on the right seem to be missing sensors, the computers underneath them aren't reporting anything

Already fixed in latest commit.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:12 am The only major thing I have to mention is that the pods sometimes don't work during an emergency. During red/delta alert or whatever, when you can launch them, it will count down after hitting depart, and then it won't do anything.

Still absolutely love the map!

I had this issue on metastation too, so it might just be a pod bug

For future devs, check the [Design Document] out!

We made it boys, merged.

LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WE DID IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT YEEEAEAAAH YEA YEAH WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Should any further mapping errors be posted here or should I make an issue on git?

In any case, the QM's office has no request console.

Googles_Hands wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:43 pm Should any further mapping errors be posted here or should I make an issue on git?

In any case, the QM's office has no request console.

does it even need one? they can literally walk outside and use the one there

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:51 pm does it even need one? they can literally walk outside and use the one there

Yes it does, all Head of Staff request consoles have the ability to do stationwide announcements, they should always have this ability. They are also important as potential cross-department communication, as other request consoles can send messages to it.

Googles_Hands wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:02 pm

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:51 pm does it even need one? they can literally walk outside and use the one there

Yes it does, all Head of Staff request consoles have the ability to do stationwide announcements, they should always have this ability. They are also important as potential cross-department communication, as other request consoles can send messages to it.

Oh thaaaaaat requests console. Sure.

We have a wiki page now!

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:20 pm For future devs, check the [Design Document] out!

do you want this moved onto the tg hackmd

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:28 am

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:20 pm For future devs, check the [Design Document] out!

do you want this moved onto the tg hackmd

We have a TG hackmd? Sure.

I gave you write perms, you should be able to transfer it using the transfer button in the little ... in the top right.

Behold North Star fans, we have something I never expected, fanart! NicoDeLuna made this great piece.

Edit: If you can't take criticism without needing someone to filter my words for you, that's not my issue.

Review Retracted.

I get it, map maker hates xenobio for whatever reason; obvious given that it's the size of your average closet and there is open space all around. What really gets the old goat though, is that there is only 1 xenobio computer/monkey box - why? Xenobiologists are naturally antisocial gatekeeping assholes (speaking as one myself;) Why encourage them to act even more antisocial and not even have a 2nd person able to work there like on literally EVERY other station? You would not even have to make xenobio bigger to fit in a second console - just stick one on the bottom right of the office/closet by the glass

I get trying to be different, but this is different in a bad way, and for a bad reason.

Reposting fwoosh's review because I don't like the idea that he can't deliver feedback without being a jerk, not my problem he doesn't like the unjerk'd version

- Doesn't thematically feel like a spaceship
- The layout doesn't help it feel like a spaceship
- The layout lacks identity, copies other map's departments
- Don't like the red lighting
- The back of the ship has too many reinforced floors and looks unappealing
- Don't like the walls used. Recommend replacing the entire ship with titanium walls
- Like the map concept, recommend you run with it and add unique things. See ideas.
- A ship or a vessel is a oceangoing construct, as this is landbound and therefore theoretically moored to the shore and incapable of moving, this is a boat.

Here's some ideas:
- Canteens,
- department sleeping bunks,
- admiral uniform for the captain
- mass drivers on the front and sides of the ship activated from the bridge via button for defensive payloads, security has to stock them
- A working engine system to travel to different key taurus map landing areas (some of which with hostile ships for those mass drivers if you can kill the pilot-mobs) so you can get to space ruins faster with those ball-space manoeuvrable mechs in the pilot bay (one feature of the lower levels i think you got spot-on actually minus populating it with anything other than engineering and cargo wrapped the entire way around)

nukularpower wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:39 am I get it, map maker hates xenobio for whatever reason; obvious given that it's the size of your average closet and there is open space all around. What really gets the old goat though, is that there is only 1 xenobio computer/monkey box - why? Xenobiologists are naturally antisocial gatekeeping assholes (speaking as one myself;) Why encourage them to act even more antisocial and not even have a 2nd person able to work there like on literally EVERY other station? You would not even have to make xenobio bigger to fit in a second console - just stick one on the bottom right of the office/closet by the glass

I get trying to be different, but this is different in a bad way, and for a bad reason.

Alright, I didn't want to respond to this comment because you've entered the discussion in bad faith (assuming my intentions despite them being very clearly laid out in a design document you can access.), but here we go. After you've read the design document, you'll see that the intent is to discourage xenobio play to be something someone sequesters themselves in for the entire shift collecting every slime ever. Instead, it's designed to be something a scientist can jump into, focus down singular cores without getting every slime ever, and then leave xenobio to go do something with them.

I'm not going to make it like "literally EVERY other station" because that's not the intent, and I believe that if you're taking pride in being a "antisocial gatekeeping asshole", then maybe the North Star xenobio is a good opportunity to get what you need done in XB, and then try to communicate with the rest of the crew for a change.

While I'm here, here's an updated link to the design document.

goes to show how good chesh is of a mapper how quickly this was merged

edit: also, Fikou, Red-Mushroom, Xytolj, FiniteUniverses, Strollers, Syphon, Biddle, Coal, Hamdry, kritzkrieg, deranged, and bumpkin0. god bless all of you!!!!

kinnebian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:11 pm goes to show how good chesh is of a mapper how quickly this was merged

Please note, this wasn't a solo project. I had a lot of help from a lot of people. I'm the map lead and I did a majority of the port, but I guarantee that without the people I've credited there is no way it'd be done. Entire departments, sections of maint, and much more was just vaguely directed by me and left mostly up to the talented:
Fikou, Blue-Berry, Zytolg, InfiniteGalaxies, Striders, Sylphet, Riggle, Soal, Andry, Crit, Deranging, and Pumpkin0.

Hot take: one monkey box is not enough for a single scientist xenobio start and another one should be added

I really like what I've seen on the map so far! My only gripe has been the signs and the department layouts. I love this station but SOMETIMES I CAN'T FIND SHIT, and not just because the map is new. I found myself repeatedly ahelping for directions since the navigator doesn't have any specific options, and because the signs aren't super explicit.

Everything feels very claustrophobic, which I think can be a good thing, but just without signs or means of direction, I find myself quickly getting lost.

I think if more directions were implemented this map would be even cooler than it already is.

Could we get a crew monitor for the Warden's office?

is it possible a smartfridge for organ storage could be put somewhere in medbay? i couldn't find one but maybe i missed it.

Tried Northstar with Engineering (and also almost died by setting up sensors that bend the space time fabric), I love the elevators and I love the design. Things feel a lot more LIKE a ship. However the dangerous maints may need to be cut back a little bit.

I will try North Star on different roles, but for now things are positive about it.

Best map made in over half a decade

Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:02 am Best map made in over half a decade

get this man a True...

I'd like to play it more but I rarely get the chance to. I wonder when the initial "new=bad" will be done. But considering Kilo is still hated by many and thats been in rotation for a while, I dunno.

Googles_Hands wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:09 am I'd like to play it more but I rarely get the chance to. I wonder when the initial "new=bad" will be done. But considering Kilo is still hated by many and thats been in rotation for a while, I dunno.

bro it can take years

Progress update: A whole bunch of nitpicks and complaints have been addressed in currently open PRs! Expect a slew of fixes and features coming sometime soon, as well as a rework of the AI Satellite.

New SAT! Working cargo shuttle! Cargo's been opened up! Check the PR's here for more info:
North Star fixes & captain office expansion by norsvenska (Merged!)
North Star AI SAT rework by Cheshify
North Star Large Fix Quantity (And Also Some Design) by Cheshify

Now, a short discussion about Xenobio - In "North Star Large Fix Quantity (And Also Some Design)", I've taken some choices to address the complaints about the department. Based on Timonk's comment, I think that I can adjust how players interact with the department further by providing some boons to push them towards the desired alternative xenobio play the map intends. In order to get xenobiologists not to focus down every slimecross ever and rather aim for specific goals, I've increased the number of monkey cubes and added a random slime spawn to replace one of the starting grey types.

This should encourage players not to fuss about ensuring they have a huge stock of every slime, and rather try to capitalize on the randomspawn they've been granted. This should hopefully get xenobiologists at their goal and interacting with the station much sooner. Let me know what you think.

Leaving a tldr of what I wrote in the PR here so you can keep track

-consider not randomly spawning rainbow slimes
-3 monkey boxes is the most of any map (?)