CitrusGender wrote:granted, I'm not 100% sure the main difference between the polls. It seems a bit strange that when the other options are added to the poll and you stack the options to have 4 removals and 1 non-removal, you're going to have a slight shift away from the original 50-50 split that we saw.
The flaw with the poll isn't that it has four remove options and one keep option. This is acceptable in an instant runoff poll. The flaw is that the poll has "remove felinids and I add <x> enticing new race>" options. This irreversibly taints the poll, it's voter bribery. We cannot assume anything concrete about what proportion of the playerbase wants felinids to go or stay, based on this poll. (Especially because felinids won the last 2 (3?) unbiased binary yes/no polls.)
It is kind of amazing that felinids are still only 20 pre-filtering votes away from winning, even though the poll is so seriously biased.
Last edited by afelinidisfinetoo on Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just want to say by the way that oranges threatened to ban me from the server for telling people in OOC that etherals would be merged regardless of what happens with felinids. He backed off, but for a moment there he made a legitimate attempt to censor someone attempting to counteract his voter bribery.
If you believe so, please answer the following questions for oranges
Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?
Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?
See the first two replies in this thread.
angelstarri wrote:can we just have a fucking poll with a yes or no option and have ethereals as a separate poll
See:
PKPenguin321 wrote:In a binary YES/NO poll to remove catgirls, if you wanted to restrict catgirls to admin only, which would you vote for? If you vote yes, catgirls get removed from the code completely and you don't even get a say. If you vote no, catgirls remain unchanged and you don't get a say in that case, either. The same goes for pretty much every compromise (for example, the compromise to remove catgirls but keep cat ears/tails as a hat item in the game was an IRV poll option that I know at least a few people supported) regardless of what "side" they lean towards, and because it's an IRV poll you can vote for a compromise without compromising your "main" vote of picking yes or no since you can (and must) order every option on the poll.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
See the first two replies in this thread.
I replied to them already, right after them.
There is nothing wrong with an IRV poll, but it is factual that a binary yes/no poll introduces no external factors that can taint the results and is the most accurate poll possible if all you want to figure out is "Should felinids remain on the server?" Felinids won both of the previous polls of this type.
The issue with this poll is, for approx. the 50th time, not that it is an IRV poll. The issue is that it has "Remove felinids and I add <x> enticing new race" options, with no "Keep felinids and I add <x> enticing new race" options. It's bribing the voters to vote for felinid removal using new content. I won't allow you to sidestep this issue, sorry.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
See the first two replies in this thread.
I replied to them already, right after them.
There is nothing wrong with an IRV poll, but it is factual that a binary yes/no poll introduces no external factors that can taint the results and is the most accurate poll possible if all you want to figure out is "Should felinids remain on the server?" Felinids won both of the previous polls of this type.
The issue with this poll is, for approx. the 50th time, not that it is an IRV poll. The issue is that it has "Remove felinids and I add <x> enticing new race" options, with no "Keep felinids and I add <x> enticing new race" options. It's bribing the voters to vote for felinid removal using new content. I won't allow you to sidestep this issue, sorry.
If playing a cat matters this much to you just go to citadel
The issue here isn't even especially about catgirls, it's that oranges attempted to force his personal will on something that was meant to be a community vote. He will do this in the future if it goes unchallenged. You might not be happy about what he does it for next time.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
See the first two replies in this thread.
I replied to them already, right after them.
There is nothing wrong with an IRV poll, but it is factual that a binary yes/no poll introduces no external factors
But that's not true. If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this. Wanting to keep catgirls as only an admin thing/as just the cat ears hat/as something you earn instead of choosing roundstart, for example, would all likely be "no" votes despite not being what they actually want.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this.
This is totally irrelevant. A player's preferred option can be absent from an IRV poll just as easily as it can be absent from a yes/no poll. They will then vote for what they next most prefer, which in the yes/no poll's case will fall within the zero-bias "yes/no" option set.
Again, the primary issue with the poll is not that it's an IRV poll to begin with, it's that the poll contains voter bribery.
The issue here isn't even especially about catgirls, it's that oranges attempted to force his personal will on something that was meant to be a community vote. He will do this in the future if it goes unchallenged. You might not be happy about what he does it for next time.
You're throwing a fit over this just as bad as goof
PKPenguin321 wrote:
If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this.
This is totally irrelevant. A player's preferred option can be absent from an IRV poll just as easily as it can be absent from a yes/no poll
I disagree that it is irrelevant. Even if the same problem can exist within the IRV poll, an IRV poll is still a vast improvement over a binary yes/no option. Again, there absolutely were people on the servers who wanted some of the compromises that ended up being on the IRV poll (particularly admin-only/keep just the hat) who were accounted for in the IRV poll that were NOT accounted for in the binary poll. Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
Voter bribery is when you include a "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option with no "Keep felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option. That is the definition of voter bribery. It's persuading voters to vote a specific way using the promise of goods. The vote is irreparably tainted for this reason.
Sorry, like I have said about a dozen times, I'm not going to allow you to sidestep the issue. Address this point or go home.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this.
This is totally irrelevant. A player's preferred option can be absent from an IRV poll just as easily as it can be absent from a yes/no poll
I disagree that it is irrelevant. Even if the same problem can exist within the IRV poll, an IRV poll is still a vast improvement over a binary yes/no option. Again, there absolutely were people on the servers who wanted some of the compromises that ended up being on the IRV poll (particularly admin-only/keep just the hat) who were accounted for in the IRV poll that were NOT accounted for in the binary poll. Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
>compromise
>a vote that ends up removing the feature as the first vote intended but this time you get something in return
>not bribery
:thonk:
Thanks for all the dopamine.
You (cough), you haven't won here. You and your mutie-bastard friends are gonna join me in a big ol' mushroom cloud sendoff. I just triggered the self-destruct. (Heh, heh; cough, cough,...) The work will go on. You didn't do nothing here, 'cept seal your own death warrants. Duty, (cough) honor... courage... Semper Fiiiii........
PKPenguin321 wrote:
If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this.
This is totally irrelevant. A player's preferred option can be absent from an IRV poll just as easily as it can be absent from a yes/no poll
I disagree that it is irrelevant. Even if the same problem can exist within the IRV poll, an IRV poll is still a vast improvement over a binary yes/no option. Again, there absolutely were people on the servers who wanted some of the compromises that ended up being on the IRV poll (particularly admin-only/keep just the hat) who were accounted for in the IRV poll that were NOT accounted for in the binary poll. Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
>4 yes options
>1 no option
>BYOND voting forces you to weight options instead of exclusive picking
I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
oranges didn't have the last say on the poll options. The headmins have authority over all polls that go on the server, and I think the only reason oranges didn't bring that up is because he's too professional to throw people he works with under the bus.
Lazengann wrote:oranges didn't have the last say on the poll options. The headmins have authority over all polls that go on the server, and I think the only reason oranges didn't bring that up is because he's too professional to throw people he works with under the bus.
Since this thread is nothing but salty people not wanting to listen to any opposing arguments because they're 100 percent right
Is your username a pun on lasagna or no.
Garfield
► Show Spoiler
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.
Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.
BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909
Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.
Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.
BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909
Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?
Lazengann wrote:oranges didn't have the last say on the poll options. The headmins have authority over all polls that go on the server, and I think the only reason oranges didn't bring that up is because he's too professional to throw people he works with under the bus.
Oranges is responsible for the poll. No one has had any trouble admitting this until now. Even if the "Remove felinids and add etherals" option was a headmin's idea (I find this unlikely because it is oranges who has been hard-pushing the "I only merge them if the poll results in felinid removal" angle) he could have included a "Keep felinids and add etherals" option to make it unbiased and he chose not to.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
Voter bribery is when you include a "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option with no "Keep felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option. That is the definition of voter bribery. It's persuading voters to vote a specific way using the promise of goods. The vote is irreparably tainted for this reason.
Sorry, like I have said about a dozen times, I'm not going to allow you to sidestep the issue. Address this point or go home.
Its not irreparable at all
All you would have to do is remove it from the results (or something like that) thanks to IRV
PKPenguin321 wrote:
If you want to vote for a third option but none is presented and yet you vote anyways, your vote may as well be random, and there are players that do this.
This is totally irrelevant. A player's preferred option can be absent from an IRV poll just as easily as it can be absent from a yes/no poll
I disagree that it is irrelevant. Even if the same problem can exist within the IRV poll, an IRV poll is still a vast improvement over a binary yes/no option. Again, there absolutely were people on the servers who wanted some of the compromises that ended up being on the IRV poll (particularly admin-only/keep just the hat) who were accounted for in the IRV poll that were NOT accounted for in the binary poll. Listing compromises is not "voter bribery," and calling is that is a bit underhanded of you, frankly.
>4 yes options
>1 no option
>BYOND voting forces you to weight options instead of exclusive picking
The entire point of an IRV vote is that it's weighted. You HAVE to weigh all the options and not exclude some because that is how the compromises work. How you can view this as a bad thing is beyond me. A compromise by definition is something that gives a bit of leeway to both sides, but not an entirety of either. If you want cats to stay, you can put that as your first option and you still get that as your vote, but you can put a compromise as your second choice if that doesn't go the way you'd like, such as having the cat ears hat stay (which is functionally pretty much identical to catpeople but you get to keep human status (this is a tangent but why don't cat players use these? They're just straight up better for you, you can't get griefed by borgs or whatever if you wear them)). If cat ears stay, there will still be people playing like and acting like catpeople despite catpeople being removed as a race. You can still enjoy what you want but in a more limited fasion. THIS IS A COMPROMISE. This is not a strictly "yes" option. If you reject everything but "keep the status quo" as an acceptable option and deny that they are compromises (which they factually are), you're lying to yourself.
I don’t get how you think including compromises rectifies the fact that you tied a popular, unrelated feature strictly to one side of the poll. Like yeah, you included compromises, well done. People are asking why the poll is enticing voters with the promise of a new, popular feature if they vote a certain way.
Zarniwoop wrote:I don’t get how you think including compromises rectifies the fact that you tied a popular, unrelated feature strictly to one side of the poll. Like yeah, you included compromises, well done. People are asking why the poll is enticing voters with the promise of a new, popular feature if they vote a certain way.
The reason they are jumping through hoops trying to avoid answering that question is because there simply isn't a good answer.
Zarniwoop wrote:I don’t get how you think including compromises rectifies the fact that you tied a popular, unrelated feature strictly to one side of the poll. Like yeah, you included compromises, well done. People are asking why the poll is enticing voters with the promise of a new, popular feature if they vote a certain way.
The reason they are jumping through hoops trying to avoid answering that question is because there simply isn't a good answer.
I wasn't the one who decided what the compromises on the poll should be. I think oranges may have been the one to choose, the thread in the admin forums on what the poll should include is mostly oranges asking for feedback on existing questions. I'm gonna ask around if headmins are okay with me making that thread public, because I assure you nobody in there was saying "how can we set up this poll to be as rigged as possible?"
My guess to actually answer the question is that ultimately oranges decides what goes in and out of the game, and to him adding a new race requires another to be removed first, so it is a compromise in that sense. I'm aware that realistically they can both exist at the same time but I just don't think oranges would allow it.
It might be some radical centrism desire kicking in. But this argument seems to be pretty stagnant. Think to yourself as you've repeated the same phrase 5x in a row, asked for the same answers 5x in a row and got the same answers handed back to you 5x in a row
what is this thread accomplishing
► Show Spoiler
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.
Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.
BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909
Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?
Ughh, fucking maintainers, making decisions about what is right for the game based on past experience instead of based on what some month old guy who doesn't use the forums says in OOC. What do they think they are, controllers of the code?
I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
oranges wrote:Just become headcoder, it'll only take you 3-4 years of work ethic.
me so edgy xd
did you get dumpstered by a catgirl on the one day you choose to play out of 365 so hard that you actually have to remove them to get some semblance of revenge on them and have to come up with all sorts of filters and bribes to get your way after losing the first poll
I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
oranges wrote:Just become headcoder, it'll only take you 3-4 years of work ethic.
me so edgy xd
did you get dumpstered by a catgirl on the one day you choose to play out of 365 so hard that you actually have to remove them to get some semblance of revenge on them and have to come up with all sorts of filters and bribes to get your way after losing the first poll
you're actually pathetic lmao
You're a braindead fucking moron, the filters are made so that hippie raiders who come here to REMOVE CATGRIL LOL and don't actually play here don't have their votes counted. If you want cats the filters actually HELP you, but you're so upset and unstable over the prospect of potentially losing the vote that you're lashing out at anything and everything. Feel free to reply to this post so I can laugh at you.
why, just let people vent their anger and frustrations, it's not harmful and it's better than trying to bottle it up for the sake of what? forced civility?
PKPenguin321 wrote:
My guess to actually answer the question is that ultimately oranges decides what goes in and out of the game, and to him adding a new race requires another to be removed first, so it is a compromise in that sense. I'm aware that realistically they can both exist at the same time but I just don't think oranges would allow it.
the OP that I've asked oranges and friends to answer approx. 30 times now wrote:If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
oranges wrote:why, just let people vent their anger and frustrations, it's not harmful and it's better than trying to bottle it up for the sake of what? forced civility?
Wow. This entire thread oranges made themselves distant so they could let people vent.
What a hero
► Show Spoiler
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.
Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.
BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.
BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909
Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?
confused rock wrote:Ughh, fucking maintainers, making decisions about what is right for the game based on past experience instead of based on what some month old guy who doesn't use the forums says in OOC. What do they think they are, controllers of the code?
I dunno what this OOC tangent you're on has to do with this discussion here on the forums. The coders' experience and knowledge should be trusted. Running a funky poll based on what oranges wants while pretending it's about what the community wants isn't a great way to maintain trust. It's becoming less and less about catpeople and more about that the more y'all shitpost in response.
oranges wrote:We haven't even announced what we plan to do yet.
You plan to do it based on the results of a poll that you rigged, be it through negligence or purposefully.
Why should anyone be content with it?
And instead of PKP being your whipping boy, could you answer the OP for yourself? Why did you do the poll as you did it?
well like they said, a catgirl dunked me one time, so I had to create this vast conspiracy where I waited to become headcoder, manipulated the headadmins into signing off on this poll that I rigged with filters and bribes and then executed the vote according to my will, so that finally, finally, I could have my revenge.
oranges wrote:well like they said, a catgirl dunked me one time, so I had to create this vast conspiracy where I waited to become headcoder, manipulated the headadmins into signing off on this poll that I rigged with filters and bribes and then executed the vote according to my will, so that finally, finally, I could have my revenge.
This is what happens every single time someone gives you difficult questions, you try to make a joke out of it to avoid the pressure.
You really are not fit to be the head coder if this is the level of pressure and accountability that makes you shut down.
oranges wrote:We haven't even announced what we plan to do yet.
You plan to do it based on the results of a poll that you rigged, be it through negligence or purposefully.
Why should anyone be content with it?
And instead of PKP being your whipping boy, could you answer the OP for yourself? Why did you do the poll as you did it?
oranges wrote:well like they said, a catgirl dunked me one time, so I had to create this vast conspiracy where I waited to become headcoder, manipulated the headadmins into signing off on this poll that I rigged with filters and bribes and then executed the vote according to my will, so that finally, finally, I could have my revenge.
This is what happens every single time someone gives you difficult questions, you try to make a joke out of it to avoid the pressure.
You really are not fit to be the head coder if this is the level of pressure and accountability that makes you shut down.
I'm actually shaking right now, can you please stop asking such hostile questions? I didn't come to be the head maintainer so I could be yelled at by a bunch of mean people. Stop!
if not for filters catgirls would've lost the first vote lmao
maybe people from hippie joined here to vote no to catgirls but I wonder which server has the kind of person to create an alt account and spam OOC on a server they don't play to lie to convince people to vote for catgirls
confused rock wrote:
maybe people from hippie joined here to vote no to catgirls but I wonder which server has the kind of person to create an alt account and spam OOC on a server they don't play to lie to convince people to vote for catgirls
I play on TG every day, what are you talking about?
Why are oranges & friends unable to answer the questions in the OP and continue to bring it back to me, the concept of an IRV poll (???), etc.?
Just answer the questions if you didn't do anything wrong. Your intentions are becoming obvious by how you evade them.
confused rock wrote:
maybe people from hippie joined here to vote no to catgirls but I wonder which server has the kind of person to create an alt account and spam OOC on a server they don't play to lie to convince people to vote for catgirls
I play on TG every day, what are you talking about?
Why are oranges & friends unable to answer the questions in the OP and continue to bring it back to me, the concept of an IRV poll (???), etc.?
Just answer the questions if you didn't do anything wrong. Your intentions are becoming obvious by how you evade them.
your account is so fucking new and specifically named after felinids. You can't tell me the first thing you did upon discovering ss13 is think "hmmm, I think this server looks good, better look at its politics first. oh, I better sway people's opinions on this matter I know nothing about"
Why can't you just use your real account?