POLL: What logs do you want made public?

[QuartzCrystal]

The headmins have apparently decided, without consulting with the admins or players, that ADMIN logs will be made public. These are the only logs to be made public. Basically asay, adminhelps, admin actions, etc etc will all be made public. The only thing that will be censored are CKEYs. This does not censor CKEYs and character names that are said in PMs to or from admins or ones that are said in asay by admins. The censorship of CKEYs is to protect players privacy, but most players have consistent characters and it will be really easy for anyone to identify who is making complaints about who. This will also severely hamper what admins can discuss in asay.

I personally think this is a bad idea, and it's not even what players have been asking for, which is public logs that will make ban appeals (and requests) easier to make. Simply making adminlogs public will not enable players to make better appeals and requests as it censors CKEYs and only provides players with their interaction with admins to make their case, as opposed to the actual events that they were banned for.

So I'm opening up this poll, there are a few options.

EDIT: Worth pointing out that I have enabled vote switching so people can switch if they change their minds, the poll is going to run for 5 days. After this theoretically we can all point to this and decide what we want.

[Ikarrus]

Why are adminhelps lumped in with asay

[Ikarrus]

And I understand scrubbing identifying information like IPs and CIDs but ckeys? really?

Needless to say, none of the options presented in this poll represent my opinion.

The only things that need scrubbing are IPs, CIDs, and to a lesser extent asay and notes. I don't see why anything else needs to.

[QuartzCrystal]

And I understand scrubbing identifying information like IPs and CIDs but ckeys? really?

Needless to say, none of the options presented in this poll represent my opinion.

The only things that need scrubbing are IPs, CIDs, asay and notes. I don't see why anything else needs to.

That's not an option being presented to us. Headmins are insistent on protecting players privacy by censoring CKEYs. But of course if admins are to keep up with this we can't actually discuss anything going on in asay.

[Ikarrus]

I'm just saying there's no point in placing adminbus under strict lockdown while asay is still public. It just moves the discussion from in game to IRC. And if we're going to disable public notes because of metacommunication, a lot of metacomms gets discussed in asay as well.

[QuartzCrystal]

I'm just saying there's no point in making adminbus under strict lockdown but asay is still public. And if we're going to disable public notes because of metacommunication, a lot of metacomms gets discussed in asay as well.

Exactly.

[Ikarrus]

Okay but there's no harm in adminhelps.

[QuartzCrystal]

Okay but there's no harm in adminhelps.

IMO players should be able to say something to the admins without it being open to public scrutiny.

[Ikarrus]

Okay but there's no harm in adminhelps.

IMO players should be able to say something to the admins without it being open to public scrutiny.

Well when you put it that way then I can agree.

All logs minus adminhelps/asay it is then

[Saegrimr]

Not uploading the normal chat logs because it might cause drama and stalking or whatever reason was decided, and then leaving in ahelps so they can go and nitpick "wow this guy keeps ahelping me TIME TO METAGRUDGE".

10/10

[Saegrimr]

7. People don't want to play on goon hippie vg or bay. They want to play here, the reason they do is because they are allowed to have a say on who makes the policy and they have a voice in how the server is run.

No seriously I need to ask in OOC how many people play tgstation specifically for the democracy and not because it doesn't lag for 15 seconds on minute intervals like some other servers.
Forumites need not apply.

[oranges]

I've discussed this a little with Quartz and others and my position remains the same, all interaction/attack/ooc/chat logs should be public so I can appeal my bans with the appropriate logs.

This means
A) I can refresh my memory about the incident - useful in case of longer term bans where the context is forgotten and I want to be accurate to the event
B) I can present my case in a stronger manner by indicating all the chain of events that were involved or I think were involved, including ones I didn't have the forethought to mention during an investigation

You can see more of that discussion here
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... =50#p82263

[oranges]

By the way scrubbing ckeys isn't the end of the world but it does make things more of a pain since you need to remember the name you were using at the time.

I don't see the need to scrub ckeys really.

[QuartzCrystal]

By the way scrubbing ckeys isn't the end of the world but it does make things more of a pain since you need to remember the name you were using at the time.

I don't see the need to scrub ckeys really.

I think this is something we can discuss once we finally decide which logs we want public. I agree, CKEYs aren't a huge deal to make public along with attack logs, etc.

[Vekter]

I've discussed this a little with Quartz and others and my position remains the same, all interaction/attack/ooc/chat logs should be public so I can appeal my bans with the appropriate logs.

This means
A) I can refresh my memory about the incident - useful in case of longer term bans where the context is forgotten and I want to be accurate to the event
B) I can present my case in a stronger manner by indicating all the chain of events that were involved or I think were involved, including ones I didn't have the forethought to mention during an investigation

You can see more of that discussion here
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... =50#p82263

You don't need access to everything we've said about your case to appeal your ban properly. If you need the adminhelp logs for some reason we'll be happy to provide them, but I'm not okay with everything we're saying in asay being public. It's not public facing for a reason. Ahelps for pretty much the same reason.

[Jeb]

Poll needs an "Other (Please describe below)" option.

[Loonikus]

And why are you not ok with everything you say in ahelp and asay being made public? If these were your cell phone records or keystrokes, that would be different, but your admining a 2D clown simulator. Are people sharing their PIN numbers over asay or something?

[Ikarrus]

And why are you not ok with everything you say in ahelp and asay being made public? If these were your cell phone records or keystrokes, that would be different, but your admining a 2D clown simulator. Are people sharing their PIN numbers over asay or something?

I think it's more so players can put in complaints against other players without fear of retribution from that other player. Or other peer pressures such as "haha look at this loser bringing up genuine issues with other players". I don't see how admin PM logs would help you guys in any way. The player(s) being spoken know full well what is being said, and they can publicise them if they want. How would you feel if all your adminPMs were broadcasted to everyone in the community?

Asay would be scrubbed so admins can discuss things like metagaming without the players knowing we're on to them. Admins already have #adminbus where they can just take all conversations if they wanted to, but for the sake of simplicity why not just let them do it in game.

[Vekter]

And why are you not ok with everything you say in ahelp and asay being made public? If these were your cell phone records or keystrokes, that would be different, but your admining a 2D clown simulator. Are people sharing their PIN numbers over asay or something?

Because let's be honest, not everything that we say in there is going to be something we want players to hear. A lot of it tends to be discussion of player behavior, specific players and tendencies, and (from time to time) server-crashing bugs. I don't like the idea of having to cherry-pick everything I say in asay in the event it might piss a player off.

Ahelp logs don't need to be public because we're concerned about other players using people ahelping as reasons to metagrudge or generally being a dick. Something like "Oh my god he ahelped me for THAT?! What a faggot!" etc. etc.

[oranges]

I've discussed this a little with Quartz and others and my position remains the same, all interaction/attack/ooc/chat logs should be public so I can appeal my bans with the appropriate logs.

This means
A) I can refresh my memory about the incident - useful in case of longer term bans where the context is forgotten and I want to be accurate to the event
B) I can present my case in a stronger manner by indicating all the chain of events that were involved or I think were involved, including ones I didn't have the forethought to mention during an investigation

You can see more of that discussion here
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... =50#p82263

You don't need access to everything we've said about your case to appeal your ban properly. If you need the adminhelp logs for some reason we'll be happy to provide them, but I'm not okay with everything we're saying in asay being public. It's not public facing for a reason. Ahelps for pretty much the same reason.

I didn't say anything about Ahelp or asay? I don't think either need to be public, I want the interaction attack, ooc and chat logs

[Vekter]

Oh, okay, definitely. I misunderstood, my bad.

[Lovecraft]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

[Tsaricide]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

But there are and some of the points have already been posted in this thread.

[Lovecraft]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

But there are and some of the points have already been posted in this thread.

Read every single one of what you think those points are again and then reread what I wrote until you realize how stupid this all is.
If confused please refer back to this post.

[Bluespace]

make it all public
everything
let them all know how much we shit talk them in asay

[onleavedontatme]

I don't really understand this "we can't let players know who adminhelped" line of reasoning.

If I beat the clown to death and I get a PM shortly after asking why I beat the clown to death, it's not a wild leap to assume the clown is probably responsible for that adminhelp.

[bandit]

I don't like the idea of having to cherry-pick everything I say in asay in the event it might piss a player off.

Ahelp logs don't need to be public because we're concerned about other players using people ahelping as reasons to metagrudge or generally being a dick. Something like "Oh my god he ahelped me for THAT?! What a faggot!" etc. etc.

Generally it is good practice not to say anything in private that you wouldn't stand by saying in public. If not, maybe ask yourself why, and why it's OK to hold the simultaneous positions of "players shouldn't be allowed to be dicks to players" and "players shouldn't be allowed to see how we're dicks to players"

[Alex Crimson]

Eh i can understand their reasoning for not wanting to make ahelps public. Asay i dont think we need to see either. Everything else should be public, including what buttons admins push and if they edit anything, make people antag etc.

[JJRcop]

I have voted option 2, because I recall a while ago that some headmin was saying that discussion with admins was supposed to be discreet and private between you and the admins. And I support that stance.

[oranges]

Ahelps and asay should definitely be private, we want to encourage people to make admin requests and we also want admins to communicate freely about users. I think making Asay public would just force admins to use the irc more, so it doesn't acheive useful transparency there.

The other logs are the ones that should be public. Interaction logs, attack logs, pda logs, ooc, chat and the admin event / button log.

[Vekter]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

But there are and some of the points have already been posted in this thread.

Read every single one of what you think those points are again and then reread what I wrote until you realize how stupid this all is.
If confused please refer back to this post.

I'm not going to even consider your feedback valid if you're not willing to make a point other than "Y-YOU'RE ALL STUPID!".

[Saegrimr]

Asay i dont think we need to see either. Everything else should be public, including what buttons admins push and if they edit anything, make people antag etc.

And then you get things taken completely out of context.

HELP: (dude): For some reason my changeling space suit wont work and I died in space pls help
ADMIN has removed dude's changeling!
ADMIN has revived dude!
ADMIN has turned dude into a changeling!

[Falamazeer]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

But there are and some of the points have already been posted in this thread.

Read every single one of what you think those points are again and then reread what I wrote until you realize how stupid this all is.
If confused please refer back to this post.

I'm not going to even consider your feedback valid if you're not willing to make a point other than "Y-YOU'RE ALL STUPID!".

This, Lovecraft clearly has no grasp on reality. or at least the many valid points made before his invalid one. I for one am in favor of asay being completely private, as well as Ahelp, If you want to log the logs and make them public, what should be public is everything a ghost observer can see, With maybe a little extra like those bits and bobs you get when someone assembles/detonates bombs and such, And PDA.

I don't want people getting reamed over their tone in Ahelp, being treated like a whiny little bitch for tattling, during some shitlers ban appeal.

[oranges]

Asay i dont think we need to see either. Everything else should be public, including what buttons admins push and if they edit anything, make people antag etc.

And then you get things taken completely out of context.

HELP: (dude): For some reason my changeling space suit wont work and I died in space pls help
ADMIN has removed dude's changeling!
ADMIN has revived dude!
ADMIN has turned dude into a changeling!

I don't think it's a big deal, you can easily discount that if it arises as a complaint and the will look silly and have egg on their face.

[MisterPerson]

As someone with no horse in the race, I can assure you asay is completely benign.

[Alex Crimson]

Asay i dont think we need to see either. Everything else should be public, including what buttons admins push and if they edit anything, make people antag etc.

And then you get things taken completely out of context.

HELP: (dude): For some reason my changeling space suit wont work and I died in space pls help
ADMIN has removed dude's changeling!
ADMIN has revived dude!
ADMIN has turned dude into a changeling!

Then im sure the dumbass who posts an admin complaint with logs taken out of context will get told hard.

[lumipharon]

What is the benefit of making asay/ahelp public? What does it achieve?

If a particular set of ahelps is relevent and you don't have them yourself the admins can easily pull them out for you - otherwise it's somewhat sensitive information (ie: they're using asay/help BECAUSE they don't want to be overheard by non admins).

Justify the change that's being proposed, please.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Asay and Ahelp shouldn't be needed, since if you really need to know what badmin mcgee really said to his pet ascendent shadowling when you ahelped it (or whatever) you can use the public logs until you find the spot where it was then ask another admin to pull that section of logs.

Or replace asay and ahelp in the logs with [An admin says something in Asay/Ahelp]

[MrStonedOne]

Heres the thing...

If you have admin logs without ahelp/apm/asay you see actions without the conversation behind them.

"some new admin has traitor'ed some new admin" has a whole new meaning if its preceded by "some old admin: So some new admin, if you want edit people's antag status, go to their player panel, and click traitor panel. but remember, some antag roles have other steps as well, like dressup, name change, giving uplinks, etc that will show up once you make them. Try it on yourself to see"

[Saegrimr]

Or usually in my case "How do I use x traitor item?"
"Uhh, i'm not sure lemme spawn one in and test it so you don't waste your TC"

Cue logs of me spawning (in the thunderdome, but it doesn't give locations), and traitoring myself.

[peoplearestrange]

There is literally no reason to not make asay public.

I really don't have much against attack and player logs, or even ban logs. However I think asay and admin PM's, AT THE VERY LEAST, need to stay private. A lot of how we catch people is investigate and detective like work, all of which relies on talking to other admins and asking people "the right questions" in PM's. These methods will become incredibly clear to those who choose to read the logs. And those who don't want to be caught (ban evaders, metacoms etc) WILL read this information and WILL work out ways to trick us or avoid our methods. It'll only make it hard, really.


What I mean is, without the admin logs people are paranoid, WITH the admin logs people will make their own proof from the abundance of info.
As I have said before "Given enough information, one can prove anything" and all we're doing here is giving a huge truck load of information to everyone. EVEN the shit tier singlo spammers.

[NikNakFlak]

Saegrimr, you dont need to traitor yourself to use/test traitor items, I find that argument illogical and I also have to test things sometimes and it requires traitoring.

I mostly support stuff PAS said. If this gets in the way of my evade crusades and makes this already more of a pain, I will be less pleased.

[Saegrimr]

I don't remember if the radio uplink gives the same stuff as the PDA uplink, and for a good while there c4 wasn't actually named "c4" in the item path. I don't even know what it was.
It was just an example of random shit that happens. Something like changeling powers or culting/rev and invis so I can keep track of cult/rev icons because WHY THE FUCK DON'T WE HAVE AN ANTAG HUD YET, EVEN FOR ADMINS.

I'd rather not have the public logs at all because its basically a non-issue, but having the logs stripped of asay removes much needed context. Whatever bullshit notion of transparency that wasn't needed in the last 5 years is hilarious when we're not the circlejerk group of super friends people might think. I'm pretty sure theres at least 3 other admins who would have no problem calling me out if they suspected me of abusing admin. I mean fuck we gave tedward a massive shit over a stamp that none of the playerbase even saw.

[peoplearestrange]

Whatever bullshit notion of transparency that wasn't needed in the last 5 years is hilarious when we're not the circlejerk group of super friends people might think.

The fact we're all arguing different opinions on this matter is kinda case in point.

I'm pretty sure theres at least 3 other admins who would have no problem calling me out if they suspected me of abusing admin. I mean fuck we gave tedward a massive shit over a stamp that none of the playerbase even saw.

Lest we forget the bluespace deadmining of 2014. Which actually would never had happened if not for admins showing stuff.

What I mean is it really won't get rid of "shitmins" by giving logs, that happens anyway. But it will make everyone look like shit mins to those that dislike us. And every admin as someone who dislikes them. No exceptions.

[QuartzCrystal]

Heres the thing...

If you have admin logs without ahelp/apm/asay you see actions without the conversation behind them.

"some new admin has traitor'ed some new admin" has a whole new meaning if its preceded by "some old admin: So some new admin, if you want edit people's antag status, go to their player panel, and click traitor panel. but remember, some antag roles have other steps as well, like dressup, name change, giving uplinks, etc that will show up once you make them. Try it on yourself to see"

Yeah but "some new admin has traitor'ed some new admin" would be preceded by "some new admin has spawned himself in". If someone spawns themselves into a round, gives themselves a bunch of items, etc and then doesn't have a single interaction with anyone else in the round then it's obvious they were fooling around in Thunderdome.

[Falamazeer]

Something to consider, the mario incident, remember jon riker? Headmin team of the time just straight up fucked him, And despite player outcry, and even the promise of compiled logs, they never showed.

So there is a precedent for this sort of thing being useful, But I really don't think asay or ahelp would be a good idea, for one, it would spawn very careful admin conversations and not much else, And I don't think it would be useful, and as for ahelps, again I don't want shitlers looking up logs to see who ratted. Most times it's obvious, other times it's not.
And apparently most people feel the same as me, as of right now Logs -ahelp -asay is at 50% and all logs is at like 25.

So most people, not just the admins it would effect simply don't want admin conversations and ahelps to be public.

[peoplearestrange]

I don't want shitlers looking up logs to see who ratted. Most times it's obvious, other times it's not.

This is actually a very good point I hadn't considered. People ahelping situations will be obvious to everyone and will become the topic of argument.


To put this movement another way, we're going for a policy of 100% open factual raw honesty. And quite frankly, as humans we don't WANT 100% raw honesty in our face. Get a happily married or long term couple to say everything they are thinking to each other and that couple will be no more.
But a lack of honesty and lying does NOT have to mean distrust or mal-intent. To quote Doctor Who: "If I always told you the truth I wouldn't need you to trust me"

[Falamazeer]

Yeah, think about beardbeard/flensing/whateverelsenamesheused

That abrasive shithead would look those sorts of things up, and then post them to make fun of whiney diaper babies in hugb-ox spessman crying about how he molested their teddy bear.

I can't find it (probably because it's in the really really old forums) but he did just that in some pastebin logs (about burer) I posted And it wasn't a pleasant experience. Nobody wants the general population to see how salty they were in the heat of the moment.

[Skorvold]

/vg/ attempts to rig the vote

10/10

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Post No 10,000,000?
How much shitposting can you even fucking shit out over there?

Also I'm fairly sure MSO or whoever the forum admins are can actually check on the lifespans of the voting accounts. That was how they caught paprika and co making ghost accounts to try and rig a forum vote a while back, I think.