headministration locaterations.

callanrockslol · Mon May 25, 2015 7:34 am

There are at most two headmins at the absolute best of times. At one stage for a single moment in time we might have even had three.

People have lives and all that but HG appears to be on one of his grand pilgrimages again until the next election.

Ceterum autem censeo Coderbusinem esse delendam. Or at least ban HG from running from headmin next time.

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:39 am #90526

I'm actually in the cool kids' club and I see him sound off on things. Very occasionally. But decisions do get made of the 'yeah do it' or 'no' or 'that's dumb' tier with him involved.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:39 am #90527

remove the codervote, it's dumb as fuck. coders literally have no say on policy yet they get a free headmin position.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:40 am #90528

I would agree with banning him from being headmin. I would also agree with removing the coder vote and opening some more options for the third vote.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:47 am #90533

Don't forget that the coderheadmin position was granted under SoS.

Under the old system the server host was given one of the three headmin selections, and SoS chose to give that to coderbus as a attempt to try and make coderbus more integrated with the greater community.

Ever since then we never have addressed what should happen with the host vote.

Post by **oranges** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:57 am #90535

yeah but who does it go to instead?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:59 am #90536

Clearly we make it a singulo vote...

Being serious, logically we should make it a second player vote. It would not be too hard to do so where either we hold two separate elections or we simply elect the two highest voted people.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon May 25, 2015 8:01 am #90538

Uhh the host, duh.

MSO would get HGs vote, HG's would not be replaced.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 25, 2015 8:03 am #90540

Falamazeer wrote:Uhh the host, duh.

MSO would get HGs vote, HG's would not be replaced.

Except the host is not as powerful as it used to be. A headmin vote going to the host was justified because they were paying for the server to exist, whereas now they simply maintain the server and certain members of the community foot the bill.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Mon May 25, 2015 8:15 am #90542

I love how he doesn't even bother to show up and explain why he never took his position seriously.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon May 25, 2015 10:44 am #90561

i agree with removing codervote

also hg was a pretty good headmin last term from my perspective

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Mon May 25, 2015 10:48 am #90562

Just make MSO the third headmin. He manages the server, stays behind the scenes mostly and makes good decisions.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon May 25, 2015 11:23 am #90572

AdenAbrafo wrote:Just make MSO the third headmin. He manages the server, stays behind the scenes mostly and makes good decisions.

or tedward, or subtlegraces. I also disagree with a second player vote. Why should the players get a second vote over admins or coders?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon May 25, 2015 11:55 am #90581

what if players, coders, and admins simply voted together

It's not like elected headmins from each demographic cater to their support base specially, since headmins so far have done things generally. In fact, wouldn't it bring people closer if everybody had the exact same power as everyone else when it came to voting. Seriously, I'm racking my brain here to come up with a reason as to why we separated those votes in the first place and I can't come up with a good reason. If we implement the nomination/reference system that Quartz suggested, it'd cut down on meme nominees, which is honestly the only reason why a completely equal vote might have problems.

This would also make away with the problem where one group of people want to vote for someone but they're already running in another headmin vote from another group.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Mon May 25, 2015 12:59 pm #90594

NikNakFlak wrote:
AdenAbrafo wrote:Just make MSO the third headmin. He manages the server, stays behind the scenes mostly and makes good decisions.
or tedward, or subtlegraces. I also disagree with a second player vote. Why should the players get a second vote over admins or coders?

Coders are Players anyway right, it's not like they are being excluded here.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon May 25, 2015 2:07 pm #90600

Ausops tearing this bitch down with the reasonable suggestions. Why not have a mass vote for everyone? This is an excellent idea

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Mon May 25, 2015 2:55 pm #90607

Because then it raises the specter of Remember What Happened Last Time We Had A Mass Election. Because that's sure how a logic works.

So, basically, there's no reason not to.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon May 25, 2015 3:06 pm #90609

What did happen last time we had a mass election. I honestly don't remember.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Mon May 25, 2015 3:47 pm #90620

It's a laugh when an absentee Granny is still better and more responsive on average than a lot of other Headmins and administrators over the years.

Just make him a permanent High Head Administrator, and open up his spot for reelection :^)

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:09 pm #90624

imblyings wrote:What did happen last time we had a mass election. I honestly don't remember.

HBL got voted in because of his memes and vote pandering.

HBL took nothing seriously, intigracy got mad at almost everything, deuryn was never around.

Dysfunctional headmins lead to a dysfunctional administration.

Everything was awful for a good two years because SoS feared another mass election (A lot of people felt the same way).

Most people then agreed to have different seats. At least one publicly elected official and one elected by the administration. SoS also got to pick a seat because he was de facto dictator at the time, although he didn't have time himself to play yet.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:18 pm #90626

Jacquerel wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:
AdenAbrafo wrote:Just make MSO the third headmin. He manages the server, stays behind the scenes mostly and makes good decisions.
or tedward, or subtlegraces. I also disagree with a second player vote. Why should the players get a second vote over admins or coders?
Coders are Players anyway right, it's not like they are being excluded here.

>coders
>playing the game

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:25 pm #90627

Fair point Ikky but wouldn't Quartz's suggested endorsement idea stop meme candidates from happening again? Or did we do endorsements two years ago as well.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:32 pm #90628

I dunno, there are some meme admins who don't really take things seriously anyways.

The best system we had IMO was SoS personally approving all candidates. All he wanted to do was make sure the person was serious and was aware of and willing to take on all the responsibilities and commitments that comes with the job.

SoS was probably well aware of the meme vote after HBL's election and the measures he then took ensured the next election ran extremely smoothly with solid candidates imo.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:58 pm #90635

We should really have 2 player-elected headmins and one admin-elected headmin.

Giving a group which has no accountability to the playerbase at large a headmin slot never sat right with me.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 25, 2015 5:22 pm

NikNakFlak wrote: Why should the players get a second vote over admins or coders?

What do you mean players "over" the admins? That the players and admins are distinct powerbases at war with exclusive interests is a terrible attitude to have. Everyone should be aiming to have a fun game, everyone should be a player first and foremosr.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:24 pm #90638

Ahh NikNak you have a way with words.

I think Ausops has the right idea, either that or going for the 1 admin 2 player vote system.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:24 pm #90639

The problem is, a certain vocal minority of the playerbase clamors loudly in favor of meme candidates, and in the first vote it is usually enough to get clearly unqualified people into the final running. (This also extends to meme ban appeals, as we have just seen.)

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:28 pm #90641

Meme candidates are usually easy to distinguish, I would think that having at least one established admin needing to vouch for someone to be eligible to run in the election would be a effective guarding measure.

The other alternative is a additional guarding measure of another person or persons having to sign off the candidates, of course who else do you entrust with that? The host, a player, another admin?

Either that or buffing the requirement to have three player recommendations and two admin recommendations.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:37 pm #90651

Bluespace wrote:Coders literally have no say on policy yet they get a free headmin position.

Technically untrue, coders can influence policy by introducing new or changing situations in game that demand policy changes.

They can also hardcode parts of the game to quash any attempts at going against their personal opinion on how the game should be played and go over the admin team's head, but this is called "being a dick".

QuartzCrystal · Mon May 25, 2015 5:42 pm

I just browsed this thread quickly. As I posted to singulo a little while ago, HG should be more active now. If this remains a problem MSO and I will work out a solution.

In terms of the codervote, the ongoing decision was that the third headmin would be chosen by the host. There is a good chance the host giving the coders a headmin choice may change considering the public backlash.

Also please remember that whatever happens with the host/coder choice, all three headmins will be selected from the same pool. As in, no one can run for JUST the admin vote or JUST the player vote, etc. All nominees (who procure the appropriate endorsements) will be options for all 3 votes (however the host one goes).

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon May 25, 2015 6:20 pm #90656

MSO retaining limited veto powers at his discretion or his own private personal question time with headmin candidates could work to remove those meme candidates.

Depending on how many admin endorsements are needed, admins probably already have a large amount of influence over candidates already. Outside of meme candidates and the few shitposters being vocal about it, there really shouldn't be any difference in voting power between members of this community.

Post by **oranges** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:13 pm #90689

I don't see why the host gets to have all these powers, frankly I don't like it

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:18 pm #90692

It's a thank you for being the person who puts up with the technical aspect of hosting.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:35 pm #90698

Two player elected headmins.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:53 pm #90704

Reminder, I said this would happen and got dismissed as a bitter arse hole again.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon May 25, 2015 10:33 pm #90721

My point is, it's entitling a select group of people over another group with no justification. It works in all directions. If admins got another vote, it would giving them a vote that the players dont have, and vice versa. An un-balanced system. No group should get a second vote for that reason.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 25, 2015 11:36 pm

NikNakFlak wrote:My point is, it's entitling a select group of people over another group with no justification. It works in all directions. If admins got another vote, it would giving them a vote that the players dont have, and vice versa. An un-balanced system. No group should get a second vote for that reason.

I don't think the community at large is "a select group of people." The admins are already " entitled over another group" by ~20 people having as much influence as several hundred people.

And you're still thinking of the community as a separate group with interests that diverge from your own. Admins are a bunch of volunteer babysitters/referees for manchildren in an atmos simulator, not a government or special interest group. I mean the theoretical goal of the admins is to make the game fun for the players, not be at war with them.

Some people just take it way too seriously.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon May 25, 2015 11:38 pm #90732

Shouldn't this be in policy discussion?

Semantics aside, I like the idea of an active admin having to vet a candidate.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon May 25, 2015 11:38 pm #90733

You are literately disregarding whatever I say and just referencing it as Admins vs players so whatever

onleavedontatme · Mon May 25, 2015 11:41 pm

Vekter wrote:Shouldn't this be in policy discussion?

Semantics aside, I like the idea of an active admin having to vet a candidate.

Probably better for it to be in a forum people actually read

NikNakFlak wrote:You are literately disregarding whatever I say and just referencing it as Admins vs players so whatever

Guess we won't see eye to eye on this, I'll drop it.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue May 26, 2015 12:53 am #90755

Players should get a second vote because they make up the bulk of the community.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue May 26, 2015 12:54 am #90756

Has HG been deadminned from his head position or not? We are getting conflicting information here

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:17 am #90762

Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:24 am #90765

An0n3 wrote:Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).

The 'bus that voted in Intig and Ikky isn't the same 'bus we have now. Their most recent elect was Stickymayhem, which makes me nervous about giving them MORE headmin slots.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:31 am #90767

The playerbase is the most easily manipulated and least informed group.

If Tonto TookTook were unbanned and allowed to run he'd probably win the player vote.

Other servers don't have player elections for similar reasons. The most I've heard of any other server allowing players to vote on headmins is giving the players the chance to confirm/deny a handpicked headmin promotion from the host.

/tg/station is ridiculously (and in hindsight I would say overly) bureaucratic about things and rather than resulting in better choices it just causes drama and more problems.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:35 am #90769

An0n3 wrote:Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).

If admins got to choose all three headmins then our current headmins would have been sticky,kor, and niknak.

So if we take the admin votes Intig, Ikarrus, and sticky and compare them to the player votes HBL, anon, and STP I would rather trust the players.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:35 am #90770

whodaloo wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).
The 'bus that voted in Intig and Ikky isn't the same 'bus we have now. Their most recent elect was Stickymayhem, which makes me nervous about giving them MORE headmin slots.

Well I'm pretty much the only headmin actually around so they did better than the coder and player votes.

Winning by default is the best kind of winning.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:38 am #90772

Tsaricide wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).
If admins got to choose all three headmins then our current headmins would have been sticky,kor, and niknak.

So if we take the admin votes Intig, Ikarrus, and sticky and compare them to the player votes HBL, anon, and STP I would rather trust the players.

That's not an accurate representation, you're just looking at the people who got the highest votes in the admin election. Not all the candidates who ran for headmin ran for the admin vote. A more accurate guess would be Kor, STP, and Sticky.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:47 am #90774

I thought STP was doing a pretty good job, no sure what this recent absenteeism is all about. I guess sometimes real life prevents spessman stuff, although that is not a great excuse. I think the headmins all knew what they were getting in to.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:48 am #90775

NikNakFlak wrote:My point is, it's entitling a select group of people over another group with no justification. It works in all directions. If admins got another vote, it would giving them a vote that the players dont have, and vice versa. An un-balanced system. No group should get a second vote for that reason.

Admins are all players.
Coders are all (mostly) players.
Players are players.

Therefore, giving more votes to the players does in no way give a 'group of people entitlement over another group'.

Admins can vote in the admin vote then vote as a player in the player votes.