Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:43 am #454861

it really doesn't though, you're suggesting that the existence of the etherals options would make someone who would previously rank keep higher than remove would suddenly now put it lower than remove, even though they can rank in the form, have etherals, keep cats, remove cats.

Why would they switch sides completely when tey can express that they want etherals but then otherwise would prefer to keep cats? the argument makes no sense jerry.



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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:03 am #454862

oranges wrote:it really doesn't though, you're suggesting that the existence of the etherals options would make someone who would previously rank keep higher than remove would suddenly now put it lower than remove, even though they can rank in the form, have etherals, keep cats, remove cats.

Why would they switch sides completely when tey can express that they want etherals but then otherwise would prefer to keep cats? the argument makes no sense jerry.

I already said this, people are not obligated to follow the "Rank options from most to least desired" instructions and they can and do vote based on external factors. The presence of now-removed bribery options can this way influence the other votes and continue to taint the poll.

Also, oranges, you have never responded to the fact that regardless of whether or not the bribery attempt was successful or necessary, you did attempt voter bribery. You are not an impartial person and should never have gone within a thousand miles of this poll.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:15 am #454864

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:you did attempt voter bribery. You are not an impartial person and should never have gone within a thousand miles of this poll.

rolled my eyes to this post
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Cobby » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:19 am #454866

I'm waiting for my payout oranges...
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:29 am #454869

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
oranges wrote:it really doesn't though, you're suggesting that the existence of the etherals options would make someone who would previously rank keep higher than remove would suddenly now put it lower than remove, even though they can rank in the form, have etherals, keep cats, remove cats.

Why would they switch sides completely when tey can express that they want etherals but then otherwise would prefer to keep cats? the argument makes no sense jerry.

I already said this, people are not obligated to follow the "Rank options from most to least desired" instructions and they can and do vote based on external factors. The presence of now-removed bribery options can this way influence the other votes and continue to taint the poll.

Also, oranges, you have never responded to the fact that regardless of whether or not the bribery attempt was successful or necessary, you did attempt voter bribery. You are not an impartial person and should never have gone within a thousand miles of this poll.

you're still suggesting that they would change their literal entire belief system because of two unrelated options :roll:

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:12 am #454872

oranges wrote:it really doesn't though, you're suggesting that the existence of the etherals options would make someone who would previously rank keep higher than remove would suddenly now put it lower than remove, even though they can rank in the form, have etherals, keep cats, remove cats.

Why would they switch sides completely when tey can express that they want etherals but then otherwise would prefer to keep cats? the argument makes no sense jerry.

The existence of ethereals option did technicially mess up IPCs however no one cares about robot men literally get out of here IPCs smh

Jokes aside, I'm just going off an assumption.

edit: eh, some stuff i wrote seems dumb. I'm too cynical now lol

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:44 am #454881

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
oranges wrote:it really doesn't though, you're suggesting that the existence of the etherals options would make someone who would previously rank keep higher than remove would suddenly now put it lower than remove, even though they can rank in the form, have etherals, keep cats, remove cats.

Why would they switch sides completely when tey can express that they want etherals but then otherwise would prefer to keep cats? the argument makes no sense jerry.

I already said this, people are not obligated to follow the "Rank options from most to least desired" instructions and they can and do vote based on external factors. The presence of now-removed bribery options can this way influence the other votes and continue to taint the poll.

Also, oranges, you have never responded to the fact that regardless of whether or not the bribery attempt was successful or necessary, you did attempt voter bribery. You are not an impartial person and should never have gone within a thousand miles of this poll.

>You are not an impartial person and should never have gone within a thousand miles of this poll.
>You are not an impartial person
>not an impartial person
>impartial
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:00 am #454907

somerandomguy wrote:...


Okay. Instead of making a rigged poll, and poorly attempting to deceive the users into thinking that their opinion matters, next time just exercise your personal will (which is what happened anyway.)

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby CreationPro » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:20 am #454913

i want to put cat ears on oranges
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:41 am #454921

oranges wrote:you're still suggesting that they would change their literal entire belief system because of two unrelated options :roll:


What about those people that were undecided? What if someone thought "hey, catgirls aren't really my thing, but ethereals sound really cool, I'll vote them in instead!" Can you know how many people were aware that ethereals would have been added in anyway?

You made a vote that decided if cats were going to live or die, and you made the option to 1. Leave cats alive, 2. Kill cats and get $10.000. People voted to kill cats and it is revealed that everyone was going to get $10.000 regardless. Why do you think throwing in that money had no impact on the vote? Why do you think this vote is legitimate?
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Screemonster » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:44 am #454923

CreationPro wrote:i want to put cat ears on oranges

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:19 pm #454988

BONERMASTER wrote:
oranges wrote:you're still suggesting that they would change their literal entire belief system because of two unrelated options :roll:


What about those people that were undecided? What if someone thought "hey, catgirls aren't really my thing, but ethereals sound really cool, I'll vote them in instead!" Can you know how many people were aware that ethereals would have been added in anyway?

You made a vote that decided if cats were going to live or die, and you made the option to 1. Leave cats alive, 2. Kill cats and get $10.000. People voted to kill cats and it is revealed that everyone was going to get $10.000 regardless. Why do you think throwing in that money had no impact on the vote? Why do you think this vote is legitimate?

And he removed the money option
The next thing you say better not be "but you can't just remove things" because thanks not how IRV works

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby confused rock » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:43 pm #454997

I loved the pic you posted wonderin if I share it, would you mind?
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Cobby » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:49 pm #455013

BONERMASTER wrote:
oranges wrote:you're still suggesting that they would change their literal entire belief system because of two unrelated options :roll:


What about those people that were undecided? What if someone thought "hey, catgirls aren't really my thing, but ethereals sound really cool, I'll vote them in instead!" Can you know how many people were aware that ethereals would have been added in anyway?

You made a vote that decided if cats were going to live or die, and you made the option to 1. Leave cats alive, 2. Kill cats and get $10.000. People voted to kill cats and it is revealed that everyone was going to get $10.000 regardless. Why do you think throwing in that money had no impact on the vote? Why do you think this vote is legitimate?


If people actually thought this, you should have put the keep option front and foremost with ethereals being second. If you can’t bother to ask this prior to the poll I really have minimal sympathy.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby delaron » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:56 pm #455039

Why wasn't keep Felinids and gain Etherels an option also then?

Having the one without the other is how it became a tilted poll.

It was a poorly constructed IRV regardless of outcome. That has been my point.

Besides this is all stupid drama because some people don't know how or don't want to play nice.

Lets dump the code base and play a IRV simulator instead. /tg/IRV station
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:19 pm #455054

BONERMASTER wrote:
oranges wrote:you're still suggesting that they would change their literal entire belief system because of two unrelated options :roll:


What about those people that were undecided? What if someone thought "hey, catgirls aren't really my thing, but ethereals sound really cool, I'll vote them in instead!" Can you know how many people were aware that ethereals would have been added in anyway?

Would they have been? I was under the impression that oranges wasn't planning on letting in any more mutant races without gutting another.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:34 pm #455058

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options. See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20294&start=100#p453892 discussion chain


https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... Lk6Q%3D%3D

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:34 pm #455074

MrStonedOne wrote:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options. See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20294&start=100#p453892 discussion chain


https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... Lk6Q%3D%3D

No its not.

Now he's going to say you rigged it harder

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby NoxVS » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:26 am #455082

MrStonedOne wrote:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options. See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20294&start=100#p453892 discussion chain


https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... Lk6Q%3D%3D

No its not.

Actually I believe they are aware of that, they claim that the presence of the other two options changed the results of those 3, which really makes no sense whatsoever

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Screemonster » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:29 am #455084

I too change my opinions on whether I prefer steak or lasagne depending on whether there are burgers on the menu

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:54 am #455090

Screemonster wrote:I too change my opinions on whether I prefer steak or lasagne depending on whether there are burgers on the menu

>food analogy
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Screemonster » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:03 am #455104

CosmicScientist wrote:>eating lasagne

this is a thread about cats

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:49 pm #455152

Voting in an IRV poll is tricky. You don't want to put your second-best pick in the second place especially when you really want your first pick to win and you think the second-best will be favoured by most people. In this case, it was easy to predict that both pro-cats and anti-cats would pick "replace cats with ethereals" as the second-best option. So the best course of action for staunch pro-cats would've been to put the ethereal option as lower as possible, to prevent aggregation from boosting it up to the top.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Digdugxx » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:30 pm #455187

The fact of the matter is the presence of the bribery options have taken away votes from the simple remove or keep options and have therefore swayed things, even if by a little.

There is no promise that people care about their seconds, third and so on choice and as said by someone above, they may even change their rankings if they think voting something second might harm the chance of their first option being picked, i.e. if their first second option has a higher chance of being voted than their first by everyone else.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:18 pm #455190


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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:49 am #455216

Grazyn wrote:Voting in an IRV poll is tricky. You don't want to put your second-best pick in the second place especially when you really want your first pick to win and you think the second-best will be favoured by most people. In this case, it was easy to predict that both pro-cats and anti-cats would pick "replace cats with ethereals" as the second-best option. So the best course of action for staunch pro-cats would've been to put the ethereal option as lower as possible, to prevent aggregation from boosting it up to the top.

how the fuck can you hold this conception of voting? it's not even close to true, staunch pro cat users should put keep at teh top and then put whatever the fuck they wanted next as their next option. What your second rank option is has absolutely zero bearing on the outcome unless
A) you first pick got eliminated, in which case you want to use your second pick
B) your first and second picks are both ranked last with equal vote count in an elimination round(in which case the option with the higher number of higher rankings wins - this by the way, is the total vote value tracked value)

Therefore, in all cases, the optimal strategy is literally just to order your votes to match exactly what you would like to happen in order, anything else is non optimal for you.

keep
swap
remove
etc.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Nilons » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:59 am #455217

itt: people didnt know how irv polling worked when they voted and now are upset
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:36 pm #455237

Nilons wrote:itt: people didnt know how irv polling worked when they voted and now are upset

itt: people still don't know how irv polling works

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:59 pm #455239

oranges wrote:how the fuck can you hold this conception of voting? it's not even close to true, staunch pro cat users should put keep at teh top and then put whatever the fuck they wanted next as their next option. What your second rank option is has absolutely zero bearing on the outcome unless
A) you first pick got eliminated, in which case you want to use your second pick
B) your first and second picks are both ranked last with equal vote count in an elimination round(in which case the option with the higher number of higher rankings wins - this by the way, is the total vote value tracked value)

Therefore, in all cases, the optimal strategy is literally just to order your votes to match exactly what you would like to happen in order, anything else is non optimal for you.

keep
swap
remove
etc.

In this specific case it wouldn't have changed anything, cats would've lost regardless, but in general whenever there's an IRV poll that you consider a binary poll ("I only want my option to win and I don't care about any of the other options") the best course of action is to identify what you believe will be a popular option and try to keep its total vote value as low as possible, which means NOT selecting it as your second pick, even if you do have a slight preference for it, for the very reason you mentioned.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:13 pm #455256

If people don’t know how to vote tactically (lol) or tried to tactical vote but were crap at it, what does it matter? We’re not having another poll for a while and certainly not because voters “screwed up”
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:46 pm #455267

Cobby wrote:If people don’t know how to vote tactically (lol) or tried to tactical vote but were crap at it, what does it matter? We’re not having another poll for a while and certainly not because voters “screwed up”

No one is implying that so no need to get defensive, it's just good advice for future votes. It can apply to headmin elections too if you think that your candidate is the best and all the others are trash.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:03 pm #455272

Grazyn wrote:
Cobby wrote:If people don’t know how to vote tactically (lol) or tried to tactical vote but were crap at it, what does it matter? We’re not having another poll for a while and certainly not because voters “screwed up”

No one is implying that so no need to get defensive, it's just good advice for future votes. It can apply to headmin elections too if you think that your candidate is the best and all the others are trash.


All I asked was what's the point then tying it back to the general topic of the thread in which somehow voters were wronged. Apart from this post I don't really see where the defensive part came in.

CosmicScientist wrote:Oh I geddit now, total vote value tracked. I didn't realise that was how eliminations/the winner was sorted because the rounds are shown instead as if useful. Why are options eliminated then instead of just saying dis is the highest vote value?


Since I know my voting pool is smaller I put my votes in the following order (and why I no longer share my votes):

People I want
People I don't want
Admins I don't want

This allows my top votes to get more value. Players however should always go Item I want > Item I don't want.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:10 pm #455274

I think it would be very helpful for the future to not throw in unrelated goodies in a binary poll. I also think there are many other more important issues to start votes on, for example, removing oranges from the coding team... when do we hold the vote on that?
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:26 pm #455278

CosmicScientist wrote:Oh I geddit now, total vote value tracked. I didn't realise that was how eliminations/the winner was sorted because the rounds are shown instead as if useful. Why are options eliminated then instead of just saying dis is the highest vote value?

no, total vote value only comes into play as a tiebreaker, as oranges said

oranges wrote:B) your first and second picks are both ranked last with equal vote count in an elimination round(in which case the option with the higher number of higher rankings wins - this by the way, is the total vote value tracked value)


otherwise eliminated first pick votes are assigned to second picks. So, keeping total vote value as low as possible for the option you think could tie with yours is still the optimal choice.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:43 pm #455281

CosmicScientist wrote:Oh right I don't understand what's up with your decision making then.

Seems like a meme though unless either your group can commit to voting similarly or there are very few voters total, especially given it's the edge case of a tie.

We're talking about polls that can end up incredibily close, so yes edge cases become important, and why would you want to vote in the non-optimal way and decrease your chances? It's not like you have to coordinate your voting group, just don't pick a popular option as your second pick, take a random one or even better one you think would be the least popular, so if it ties with yours it won't get boosted by higher vote value

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Denton » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:55 pm #455285

BONERMASTER wrote:I think it would be very helpful for the future to not throw in unrelated goodies in a binary poll. I also think there are many other more important issues to start votes on, for example, removing oranges from the coding team... when do we hold the vote on that?

Aren't you the dude who got gitbanned for flooding the git PR with NSFW pictures
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:01 pm #455286

BONERMASTER wrote:removing oranges from the coding team... when do we hold the vote on that?

when we have the vote to remove you from the server and forums

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:07 pm #455288

I very rarely post comments on the github. I had no involvement on the PR.

somerandomguy wrote:
BONERMASTER wrote:removing oranges from the coding team... when do we hold the vote on that?

when we have the vote to remove you from the server and forums


In the spirit of this vote, I offer you a compromise:

Option 1: Leave everything as is
Option 2: Ban BONERMASTER forever ... and oranges, too.

You decide!
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:21 pm #455295

You don't know if there is going to be a tie, my method simply takes into account this possibility. And yes, I explicitly said that it's only optimal in the case of IRV "binary" polls where you want one and only one option to win

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Cobby » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:51 pm #455305

basically if you take this method and your vote doesn't win you screw yourself over: the high risk low reward option lol
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pm #455310

BONERMASTER wrote:I very rarely post comments on the github. I had no involvement on the PR.

somerandomguy wrote:
BONERMASTER wrote:removing oranges from the coding team... when do we hold the vote on that?

when we have the vote to remove you from the server and forums


In the spirit of this vote, I offer you a compromise:

Option 1: Leave everything as is
Option 2: Ban BONERMASTER forever ... and oranges, too.

You decide!

bait: taken

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm #455326

CosmicScientist wrote:
identify what you believe will be a popular option and try to keep its total vote value as low as possible, which means NOT selecting it as your second pick, even if you do have a slight preference for it, for the very reason you mentioned.

The fact that you have a slight preference doesn't mean the poll isn't binary for you, it's just another shade of losing. You still want your option to win. It's not really a gamble and you're not sacrificing anything.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:53 pm #455336

it's not an optimal choice because ties rarely happen.

The optimal play is to simply rank in the order you most want things, anything else will be non optimal and banking on there being a tie between those items, which is too rare to be worth it. Let alone the fact that in a vote of 600+ people not enough of them are going to play in the way your thinking to even manage to swing a tie breaker.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby MrStonedOne » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:47 am #455383

Honestly I favor doing votes in any way that will fuck over people who over think votes.

Strategic voting is a net loss for democracy every time, and should be eradicated with mocking, votes rigged against it, and the fire of a thousand suns.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby bandit » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:23 am #455393

MrStonedOne wrote:Honestly I favor doing votes in any way that will fuck over people who over think votes.

Strategic voting is a net loss for democracy every time, and should be eradicated with mocking, votes rigged against it, and the fire of a thousand suns.


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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:36 pm #455913

I personally rigged the vote both times and the reason they had to spend weeks filtering it was to undo all the damage me and my ukranian botnet did to it.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:39 pm #455914

MrStonedOne wrote:Honestly I favor doing votes in any way that will fuck over people who over think votes.

Strategic voting is a net loss for democracy every time, and should be eradicated with mocking, votes rigged against it, and the fire of a thousand suns.

amen

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby John_Oxford » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:05 am #455917

John Smith wrote:This isn't relegated to just the recent and controversial feline vote. It seems at every turn when it comes to counting votes the desired results of the people in charge somehow always become the default option, or the option with 4 ways of voting for it, and only a single way to vote against it. On top of this, they host the votes in rounds, rather then just taking the vote as it was from the outset, moving the default option to the one they wanted.

This happens with restart votes too. If you don't vote, you're counted as a no vote, rather then as not voting at all, so even if a voting majority decides to restart, the restart will more then likely not take place because the majority of players did not participate in the vote.

It doesn't matter what the vote is, the monarchs in charge will find a way to count them the way they want them to add up.


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I don't even know what the fuck tg is.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:24 am #455940

yes you are.

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