Oranges did [almost] nothing wrong

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I check in on ss13 today and I see people shitting their pants with fury because Oranges is removing stuff like war ops, cloning, easy healing mechanics, etc.
As somebody who gave Oranges a rough juicing a while ago over his censoring shit for attention I'd like to say that there is nothing wrong with these changes, even if he is ultimately doing them for attention still.
I think many of you started playing SS13 long into the open source era, and you don't remember what it was like when the game had some sense of game direction. For you the current silly state of things is the default.
During the closed source era of SS13 there was always an authority to decide the players can't have the easy way in things.
Today, players have essentially added "everything they want" for themselves. It has been "player-ified." In game design, this never works out well.
There needs to be more oranges-style harsh revisions and nerfs to the game.

Internals have gone from a rare, valued, hotly contested resource to something everyone spawns with in a box in their backpack.
Space suits have gone from being more valuable than gold to being spammed in every department.
Cloning had gone from an unintended genetics bug to a tentative 5-10 minutes per person official feature to an automated assembly line with prescanning and autoscanning and autocloning and like one respawn per 30 seconds.
Healing had gone from letting doctors analyze you to see where you're injured, to automatically knowing your injured locations and doing it yourself, to not even having to heal specific locations and just throwing a global patch on instead.
Every department has always had its own code lobbyists who add retarded "I buff me" bullshit.
Security is particularly awful about this. Security in SS13 used to be a fragmented, small, lowly-armed department that would frequently get eradicated by one guy with a toolbox. Today it's a centralized pseudomilitary LARP zone with a gigantic armory, massively buffed armor, fifty different roles, an anime LARP head of security with an armored trenchcoat, and more guns every time I look at the game.
Foiling traitors in SS13 used to be a Home Alone-style group effort by the various departments working together within their various fields. In other words the core gameplay loop of SS13 used to involve all the players of the game, not a dedicated department of armed-to-the-teeth traitor killers.

The entire vibe of the game has changed. This game used to have a serious, coherent direction. Years of contribution salad have turned the game into a fragmented mess. You can't turn a corner without finding dumb, low-effort joke content. People used to laugh at the game because unserious things happened in the serious environment of a research space station. Years of unrestricted addition have watered down the setting to the point that the game doesn't even take itself seriously any more. Modern SS13 is like a Garry's Mod DarkRP server with 500 different dumb, mismatching mods installed, complete with the obnoxious cops-and-robbers motif.

Ideally one particular headcoder who can give direction to the game, be it oranges or anyone else, needs to continue de-playerifying the tg codebase.

[oranges]

thank you afelinidisfinetoo, very cool

[Qustinnus]

tbf making internals and spacesuits less common would be nice

[Sheodir]

What the fuck are you on about
even with all their new "toys" sec is ultimately still very powerless, even more so with the removal of the taser, and stands basically no fucking chance against the tide
Internals have never been massively rare, they didn't use to spawn in but oxygen lockers weren't super uncommon and the decision to give people boxes made sense given it'd become "everyone survives the very easy to do no oxygen or toxic gas conditions except the few shmucks who don't rush air locker fast enough"
Spacesuits are a smidge too common in the sense EVA is too easy to break in and Sec doesn't punish people with EVAsuits enough, that much is true, but this is more a side consequence of not making spacesuits high-risk items, which they are
And nothing of this has anything to do with the decision people are actually screaming about (removing War Ops) which was prompted by a condom captain not getting the point of the gamemode is cooperation in the first place

War Ops is always preferrable to stealth ops aka "Secret Extended 2: Explosive Finale" or Blitz Ops, which is the worse thing in the planet

[wesoda25]

If you actually read the OP you’re gay

[oranges]

What the fuck are you on about
even with all their new "toys" sec is ultimately still very powerless, even more so with the removal of the taser, and stands basically no fucking chance against the tide
Internals have never been massively rare, they didn't use to spawn in but oxygen lockers weren't super uncommon and the decision to give people boxes made sense given it'd become "everyone survives the very easy to do no oxygen or toxic gas conditions except the few shmucks who don't rush air locker fast enough"
Spacesuits are a smidge too common in the sense EVA is too easy to break in and Sec doesn't punish people with EVAsuits enough, that much is true, but this is more a side consequence of not making spacesuits high-risk items, which they are
And nothing of this has anything to do with the decision people are actually screaming about (removing War Ops) which was prompted by a condom captain not getting the point of the gamemode is cooperation in the first place

War Ops is always preferrable to stealth ops aka "Secret Extended 2: Explosive Finale" or Blitz Ops, which is the worse thing in the planet

new fag vs old fag

also the captain didn't have a chance to cooperate, their bedroom was raided by 3 or 4 assistants and they were critted within the first couple of minutes of the round

[Sheodir]

I don't play on tg for long but I adminned for Pizza and played on Bay before that, I didn't exactly start yesterday.

I was there that shift and he didn't get lynched for that, he got lynched for his spastic fucking whining and refusal to allow people to continue arming themselves up - they also weren't critted a "couple of minutes" in, they got critted when they refused to give the disk to someone else later in the preparation. It's probably bannable depending on how that situation escalated, but by no means a picture of War Ops as a gamemode. And, again, the cap was being a shit and willingly getting in the way of what can be considered the "traditional" progression of War Ops. You'd also lynch a QM that spaced the Cargo budget during War Ops, or a Chaplain that threw away his shit during cult.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

internals have never been massively rare,

I remember a round on android data's server where 20+ people in a row died to:
- seeing a (single, particular) oxygen tank lying on the ground
- picking it up and opening the valve
- immediately dying to engine-room hellburn that had been siphoned into the oxygen tank by a traitor

The only places you used to be able to get internals were EVA and engineering. Security would sometimes go to engineering and trade their roundstart thermals for an oxygen tank.

[Sheodir]

internals have never been massively rare,

I remember a round on android data's server where 20+ people in a row died to:
- seeing a (single, particular) oxygen tank lying on the ground
- picking it up and opening the valve
- immediately dying to engine-room hellburn that had been siphoned into the oxygen tank by a traitor

The only places you used to be able to get internals were EVA and engineering. Security would sometimes go to engineering and trade their roundstart thermals for an oxygen tank.

>Android "SS13 is hereby gone" Data

Holy shit, are we talking 2006? Ok, fair, I didn't go that far back. Yeah, internals were rare as shit back then, but died to internals related causes was also rarer, or at least more difficult. I feel if you start removing boxes from people/making lockers rarer suddenly oxygen siphoning is a good way to stealth kill the entire station in seconds OR people will just break into engineering en masse like it's Cargo's autolathe but covered in gold

[afelinidisfinetoo]

internals were more rare, but dying to internals related causes was also rarer, or at least more difficult.

Yes, this is because internals are everywhere now. Coders freely add space-venting mechanics to their creations because everyone has an internals box. It's a great example of open source shortsightedness: players died to depressurization, said to themselves "I never want to die to depressurization again!" and added internals boxes, and it indirectly caused more depressurization mechanics to the point that the station now feels like it's made of cardboard. So now the situation is basically the same except finding internals no longer feels special and lucky. Thanks, casuals.

[oranges]

I don't play on tg for long but I adminned for Pizza and played on Bay before that, I didn't exactly start yesterday.

I was there that shift and he didn't get lynched for that, he got lynched for his spastic fucking whining and refusal to allow people to continue arming themselves up - they also weren't critted a "couple of minutes" in, they got critted when they refused to give the disk to someone else later in the preparation. It's probably bannable depending on how that situation escalated, but by no means a picture of War Ops as a gamemode. And, again, the cap was being a shit and willingly getting in the way of what can be considered the "traditional" progression of War Ops. You'd also lynch a QM that spaced the Cargo budget during War Ops, or a Chaplain that threw away his shit during cult.

it was 100% bannable and you claiming it's the "traditional" progression fo warops is the exact kind of braindamaged stupidity that represents everything about that gamemode

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Warops was never well-designed as a gamemode anyway. It's capture the flag where 95% of the players don't have a flag indicator. The point was supposed to be to create a nuke mode where all the crew gets involved, but in practice it always boiled down to standard nuke (6 armed nukies chasing the captain and maybe other head who has a pinpointer) except with more guns.

If you wanted to make an actually entertaining over-the-top "syndies raid the station" gamemode it would need more thorough balance and consideration, and should probably be a distinct gamemode unto itself, not a button that stealth ops can press. You could instantly make it more fun by having the gamemode spawn a cargo shuttle filled with pinpointers & basic weapons for the crew

[Sheodir]

internals were more rare, but dying to internals related causes was also rarer, or at least more difficult.

Yes, this is because internals are everywhere now. Coders freely add space-venting mechanics to their creations because everyone has an internals box. It's a great example of open source shortsightedness: players died to depressurization, said to themselves "I never want to die to depressurization again!" and added internals boxes, and it indirectly caused more depressurization mechanics to the point that the station now feels like it's made of cardboard. So now the situation is basically the same except finding internals no longer feels special and lucky. Thanks, casuals.

Both alternatives are fine, though. Either internals are rare and the station is very well built and thus anyu threats that require internals are rare as shit or vice versa on both ends. Does it matter? Does it warrant a large fucking do over of these systems just to make internals special again?

I don't play on tg for long but I adminned for Pizza and played on Bay before that, I didn't exactly start yesterday.

I was there that shift and he didn't get lynched for that, he got lynched for his spastic fucking whining and refusal to allow people to continue arming themselves up - they also weren't critted a "couple of minutes" in, they got critted when they refused to give the disk to someone else later in the preparation. It's probably bannable depending on how that situation escalated, but by no means a picture of War Ops as a gamemode. And, again, the cap was being a shit and willingly getting in the way of what can be considered the "traditional" progression of War Ops. You'd also lynch a QM that spaced the Cargo budget during War Ops, or a Chaplain that threw away his shit during cult.

it was 100% bannable and you claiming it's the "traditional" progression fo warops is the exact kind of braindamaged stupidity that represents everything about that gamemode

Yes, you're meant to collaborate with others during a War Ops shift. Every gamemode has this kind of thought, specially ones more geared towards clearer threats. Same reason a chaplain is expected to collaborate with sec and staff during a cult shift or why if you refused to mindshield people during a rev shift you'd also probably get lynched. The point of it is to be a collaboration, the whole station coming together against one opponent. I don't get your aversion to this concept.

Also I wasn't in the exact room when cap was lynched, but both people who were there and the fact Jerry Hunt isn't banned (he's still around) probably tell me you're either got a very biased view of the event or are deliberately misrepresenting it.

Warops was never well-designed as a gamemode anyway. It's capture the flag where 95% of the players don't have a flag indicator. The point was supposed to be to create a nuke mode where all the crew gets involved, but in practice it always boiled down to standard nuke (6 armed nukies chasing the captain and maybe other head who has a pinpointer) except with more guns.

If you wanted to make an actually entertaining over-the-top "syndies raid the station" gamemode it would need more thorough balance and consideration, and should probably be a distinct gamemode unto itself, not a button that stealth ops can press. You could instantly make it more fun by having the gamemode spawn a cargo shuttle filled with pinpointers & basic weapons for the crew

The crew not having a lot of pinpointers is a good way to make sure it's more of a defense of the disk than a constant chase after nukies once they get the disk holder. When done right War Ops will reinforce a position around the disk or disk holder, and this happens frequently. The reason it's a button the War Ops presses is honestly because Nuke Ops otherwise had two options:

Stealth "Secret Extended 2" Ops, where ops either pull out their plan in complete stealth as a bored crew just looks at the wall before the whole station fucking exploded.

Blitz "This Should be Bannable" Ops, where ops rush at the disk before the crew can sneeze with adrenals and other ways to basically make holding them back impossible and the shift is over in five minutes.

Face it, War Ops was the only way anyone ever had fun with Nuke Ops as a gamemode. I'm all for redesigning it as a gamemode proper (which now seems to be the intent) but the call to remove it based on the fact it's "TDM" is retarded.

[oranges]

they were not banned because as usual there were no admins online

[Super Aggro Crag]

i dont like warops much because whenever it's warops the captain wont let me a gun

[teepeepee]

... there were no admins online

in the removal PR you said:

... people felt able to do that on a prime time basil round with admins online...

I'm confused, which is it?

[oranges]

he's breaking the conditioning

[teepeepee]

I'm just confused if the issue is with admins not doing anything about shit behaviour or if they were simply not online to deal with it

[peoplearestrange]

You know what I miss? Space being... space, like actually dangerous. Ok sure its got a little better, but more often than not space just means slapping on internals and then you're probably fine for a little bit.
Now people rarely give two fucks as to why a firedoor is shut or to any hull breach really.

[oranges]

I think part of it is atmos seems to proc a lot slower in depressurising rooms

[peoplearestrange]

I mean I guess, though lets be honest explosive decompression days of atoms were not fun at all...

[Super Aggro Crag]

Back in my day syndies were just 4 guys in red space pajamas with revolvers and they'd still nuke the station

They didnt have giant robots or Borgs or fully automatic combat shotgubs

[Anonmare]

E-bow OPs will return. OPs with SWAT helmets and vests will return. The HoS will have his dermal armour patch back. Stungloves will make a return. We will Make SS13 Great Again

[terranaut]

cant wait for parapen c4 meta to come back

[Anonmare]

readddddd farding and shiddinggggggggggggggggggggg xxxxxxxxxxxx

[Super Aggro Crag]

readddddd farding and shiddinggggggggggggggggggggg xxxxxxxxxxxx

baste

[peoplearestrange]

cant wait for parapen c4 meta to come back

Ok you make a good point that was shit.

The HoS will have his dermal armour patch back.

Honestly the entire time that existed I could NEVER work out how to apply it

[PKPenguin321]

The HoS will have his dermal armour patch back.

Honestly the entire time that existed I could NEVER work out how to apply it

It was literally a reskin of the normal HoS hat where the joke was that it had no on-mob sprite and was also a reference I think. HoS players that liked to show off their snowflake characters and HoS players that liked to powergame by having invisible armor both loved it

[oranges]

Yeah, it was literally so someone could have normal hair while they still had the HoS Hat protection, it was so stupid

[Screemonster]

[
Yes, you're meant to collaborate with others during a War Ops shift. Every gamemode has this kind of thought, specially ones more geared towards clearer threats. Same reason a chaplain is expected to collaborate with sec and staff during a cult shift or why if you refused to mindshield people during a rev shift you'd also probably get lynched. The point of it is to be a collaboration, the whole station coming together against one opponent. I don't get your aversion to this concept.

Also I wasn't in the exact room when cap was lynched, but both people who were there and the fact Jerry Hunt isn't banned (he's still around) probably tell me you're either got a very biased view of the event or are deliberately misrepresenting it.

imagine holding the opinion that teamkilling is okay if you decide your teammate isn't powergaming hard enough

fuck off

[bandit]

here's the dry cleaning bill for the dirt stains on everyone's ass from this shit the sliding down the slippery slope that's happening itt

[The_Silver_Nuke]

The thing about WarOps is that people realize that, "Hey, it's nukies, and therefore everyone on the station are good guys, and anyone that tries to stop us from defending ourselves is in the wrong."

IMO Nuclear operatives would be vastly improved by adding a couple of minor antagonists that would provide a reason for guns/AA to not be handed out like candy, due to the fact that these minor antags could do a lot of damage with it. Warops just speeds up the process by which people react to nukies. Once nukies are spotted at any time, HoP opens up all access, sec opens armory, and that's all she wrote. And thus by adding a few minor antags to the game mode it would at least provide some form of deterrant for the mass chaos that results.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The thing about WarOps is that people realize that, "Hey, it's nukies, and therefore everyone on the station are good guys, and anyone that tries to stop us from defending ourselves is in the wrong."

IMO Nuclear operatives would be vastly improved by adding a couple of minor antagonists that would provide a reason for guns/AA to not be handed out like candy, due to the fact that these minor antags could do a lot of damage with it. Warops just speeds up the process by which people react to nukies. Once nukies are spotted at any time, HoP opens up all access, sec opens armory, and that's all she wrote. And thus by adding a few minor antags to the game mode it would at least provide some form of deterrant for the mass chaos that results.

I think Dynamic mode can accomplish this pretty well, actually

[CPTANT]

The thing about WarOps is that people realize that, "Hey, it's nukies, and therefore everyone on the station are good guys, and anyone that tries to stop us from defending ourselves is in the wrong."

IMO Nuclear operatives would be vastly improved by adding a couple of minor antagonists that would provide a reason for guns/AA to not be handed out like candy, due to the fact that these minor antags could do a lot of damage with it. Warops just speeds up the process by which people react to nukies. Once nukies are spotted at any time, HoP opens up all access, sec opens armory, and that's all she wrote. And thus by adding a few minor antags to the game mode it would at least provide some form of deterrant for the mass chaos that results.

Could spawn 1 or 2 infiltrators on the station to remedy that.

[Gigapuddi420]

imagine holding the opinion that teamkilling is okay if you decide your teammate isn't powergaming hard enough

fuck off

[peoplearestrange]

The HoS will have his dermal armour patch back.

Honestly the entire time that existed I could NEVER work out how to apply it

It was literally a reskin of the normal HoS hat where the joke was that it had no on-mob sprite and was also a reference I think. HoS players that liked to show off their snowflake characters and HoS players that liked to powergame by having invisible armor both loved it

Holy shit, mind blown. And wow thats... thats just awful.

also

imagine holding the opinion that teamkilling is okay if you decide your teammate isn't powergaming hard enough

fuck off