hypothetical design shit

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Qbopper
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hypothetical design shit

Post by Qbopper » #562163

this isn't actually something I was planning on coding so don't get all worked up - I just enjoy writing about game design and ss13, and I haven't been able to play in like 3 months, so here's my cabin fever hypothetical design rework. I definitely do not promise that any of this would actually work well if implemented

let's start with the description on the wiki
Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station.
the important bits:
  • paranoia laden
  • roleplaying (uh oh buzzword time - let's change this to ' meaningful crew interaction')
  • setting of a nonsensical space station
let's say these are the goals of what the game's design should be; we want to encourage paranoia and conflict akin to other "find the bad guy" games (eg. werewolf, TTT), we want to encourage roleplaying (specifically, the "you are a person on a funny wacky space station and you interact with other people on the station" kind, not whatever people think is HRP), and (the last point I'm going to tweak a bit because this is my design thing and I can do whatever I want) the station/nanotrasen should generally have the appearance of a straight faced research/whatever station, but lol megacorps, so the entire place is a deathtrap

so in no particular order here's my thoughts on how things can be changed to better fit this vague vision, starting with the part that's probably going to make at least 3 people who didn't read the disclaimer get upset and think this post is somehow an official stance of the codebase

MINING/AWAY MISSIONS/SPACE EXPLORATION

lavaland is a fan favorite with a ton of really smart and talented people putting in the time and effort to make it as fun as possible - it's also practically a completely different game off the station's z level where you fuck off from the round to gather minerals and kill things and get funny loot

I genuinely can't think of a good way to include mining as a concept and have it really mesh with the overall design goals - even old mining was a problem, and short of having the station z level be really big with a ton of asteroids on it or something, the job by nature revolves around people leaving the station, which is something that isn't exactly great for causing more paranoia/interaction between crew members. there are pros to the way the system works, but imo they don't outweigh the issues

this goes for most things that involve leaving the station, the biggest examples I can think of being away missions via the gateway and space exploration

the gateway is fun, but I have some changes I would make to it that I'll detail in a second

space exploration is fine on paper but in practice it's even worse than mining - you grab a space suit and some shit and then you leave to go look for cool shit, except you're honestly probably even more detached from the round than a miner is, since you don't have a simple way back like the mining shuttle. you also aren't even contributing in a minor way during your looting, the way people delivering minerals to the station do. I should clarify that the existence of these mechanics and stuff isn't, like, killing the game and I hate them and anyone involved with them; I just don't think they fit with this hypothetical design document thingy

the changes i'd make (and this is the part where you should realize that I definitely don't mean this as an actual list of changes I'll be making):
  • Remove mining as it currently exists; I'm not entirely sure what would replace it. I was thinking an offscreen mining outpost would just automatically ship minerals to cargo, meaning the station can explicitly be more for 'research'
  • Remove space exploration as is
  • Remove the gateway, and
  • Take the removed content and make new away missions.
Every (criteria for away missions to start goes here idk), a shuttle will dock with the station and wait a few minutes before leaving. Anyone can hop on and be taken to an away mission that has a hard timelimit of 5/10 minutes. Anyone not on the shuttle at the end of the timer is left behind on the z level, encouraging people to have their fun but actually return to the station in a reasonable timeframe, meaning you can go have your fun adventure, but not spend 40 minutes in the gateway/on lavaland where you don't really have anything to do with the actual round going on. There could be a way for stranded people to get back, but it would have to be hard enough to be an actual challenge, or else people who want to stay longer will just let the shuttle leave and then get back themselves anyways (taking longer and missing the entire point of the rework)

Hopefully this would strike a nice balance between people getting to do off station content and voluntarily disappearing from the round

MAP DESIGN

layouts are, for the most part, irrelevant and down to personal preference

item density was an issue in the past but I think it's improved - I was always a big fan of box over meta, because box's scarcity of desirable items created conflict that could spill over into the rest of the round (eg. assistant busts into engineering to steal shit and is spotted by an engineer, later in the round the engineer doesn't help the assistant because he recognizes its the same shitter, etc. - little stuff like that). meta, meanwhile, had the issue of too much good loot in maint too easily accessible. I remember brawls over the one toolbelt in tool storage on box, but on maint you could absolutely just go grab one from maint anyways, without even having to trade with another crew member/break in anywhere

that being said, there should be more opportunities to use ghetto alternatives to stuff

a more recent unfortunate trend i've seen is implementing gimmicks as actual rooms in the map, eg. the shop room. This is well intentioned, but honestly, I think it makes players who might build a crappy ghetto black market in an empty room, or their own mini bar, LESS likely to do so - why would you, when the work is all done for you? Adding gimmicks like these as pre existing rooms removed chances for players to engage with the construction and crafting mechanics, which some players enjoy a lot

some of the new maps are EGREGIOUS for this - deltastation in particular has the worst maint i've ever seen where almost every common building project already exists in some form isolated from anywhere where people would actually use it. I'm genuinely unsure why delta has so much fucking stuff in maint THERE'S EVEN A FUCKING ARCADE DUDE

proposed changes:
  • I'm insane and would honestly probably advocate for a bit more desirable item scarcity
  • If the above happened, ensure there are viable (if shitty) ghetto alternatives to things that require rare items, or make them optional time savers like the way you don't really need ins gloves to break into airlocks
  • Tweak maps so that you can still obtain things like bar dispensers or the credit machine things (I forget the name, it's the thing that you can transfer money to people with) for people who want to build their own projects, but
  • Remove things like the shop room, empty rooms/ones that can be cleaned out for use by people making their own projects are better
  • Remove the egregious "ruined" rooms from maps like delta, or at the very least make them have less stuff
I have more but I've been writing for like 20 minutes so I'm gonna go take a break
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #562166

k
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Shadowflame909 » #562170

since orange man wants a mech miner

What if...

You pull an avatar (blue movie not airbender) + real steel and have the miners VR themselves into these mechas on lavaland.

Lavaland still exists in its entirety, mecha's move ores on a lift that gets transported to cargo, and lavaland loot becomes more mech based.

That way traitors would literally just have to break them out of VR to assassinate them, so they may want to hire guards or something.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Mickyan » #562171

Qbopper wrote: [*]Remove things like the shop room, empty rooms/ones that can be cleaned out for use by people making their own projects are better
A puzzling distinction considering the commissary is by design an empty room for people to make their own projects in

Besides this comes up occasionally and I still see no reason why qualifying for a harmless gimmick should require spending half the round on construction and the other half staring at a wall hoping at least one person will notice the thing you built in the middle of nowhere
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by wesoda25 » #562173

Yeah I agree with pretty much all of this. The away mission window seems a bit short but really enough to look around a bit, so its not a huge issue, if at all. Your idea actually exposes why some of our current away missions are so bad - on a few of them you have to put in some work to find your way back, meaning its much more of a commitment (but always without the person going through knowing that).

As for the maps, I think more deadly maps would be better. Things such as disposals automatically venting somewhere dangerous (but not too dangerous), shoddy departments that are semi dangerous (thinking things like brig cells with exposed wires or grilles etc) etc etc etc. I think you made the thread for garbage station (or whatever its called) so I doubt I'm saying anything really new to you here.

One thing I am conflicted on though is your take on space ruins and stuff. I agree with lavaland removal bc I've always thought it clashes with SS13, but I think the space ruins really contribute. While the fact that they are so distant and away from the station can be a problem, I think its balanced out by the fact that at most 1-2 people will be out there every round, with the majority on the station. As a whole I think a lot of the ruins can contribute a lot of character to SS13, whereas lavaland is really just a game in and of itself. Stylistically perhaps some of the ruins would have to be altered, but as a whole I think they really just embody SS13 and the ideas you want to convey, specifically the absurdity and lethality of space and SS13.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #562177

Qbopper wrote: Every (criteria for away missions to start goes here idk), a shuttle will dock with the station and wait a few minutes before leaving. Anyone can hop on and be taken to an away mission that has a hard timelimit of 5/10 minutes. Anyone not on the shuttle at the end of the timer is left behind on the z level, encouraging people to have their fun but actually return to the station in a reasonable timeframe, meaning you can go have your fun adventure, but not spend 40 minutes in the gateway/on lavaland where you don't really have anything to do with the actual round going on. There could be a way for stranded people to get back, but it would have to be hard enough to be an actual challenge, or else people who want to stay longer will just let the shuttle leave and then get back themselves anyways (taking longer and missing the entire point of the rework)

Hopefully this would strike a nice balance between people getting to do off station content and voluntarily disappearing from the round
wesoda25 wrote:Yeah I agree with pretty much all of this. The away mission window seems a bit short but really enough to look around a bit, so its not a huge issue, if at all. Your idea actually exposes why some of our current away missions are so bad - on a few of them you have to put in some work to find your way back, meaning its much more of a commitment (but always without the person going through knowing that).
Away missions are fun in groups of people. If it's something like an old PRed away mission then less people may be interested however if it's an event tier away mission then it will have a lot of people. The point is that it has the potential to be quite enjoyable in groups bigger than three.

A timer would basically throw all that out the window because now groups of 1-3 are the mandatory meta otherwise you're gonna be fucking trapped in The Wild West due to some shitty scenario where non-metafriend Steve Steve is now hated for taking too fucking long to powergame his own kit while everyone else already had max upgrades before exiting the station. Gee, that sure sounds fucking fun and interesting to do in groups. It literally just feeds into the powergaming problem that a lot of people have with away missions lol
Remove space exploration as is
Even if you think space exploration sucks, some of the ruins should still stay no matter. Imagine how retarded that'd be if the station was now only one z-level so therefore you could just patrol the z-level border, find any spaced bodies, and basically nullify the strategy of spacing your victims. Shit like asteroids, completely destroyed ruins, and probably some other stuff like the adminbus meme would probably make no sense as away mission tier content.
Last edited by Ayy Lemoh on Tue May 19, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by wesoda25 » #562178

Perhaps away missions shouldn't be focused on combat, then.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #562179

wesoda25 wrote:Perhaps away missions shouldn't be focused on combat, then.
Then why the fuck would anyone go on them?

No combat means you can't really justify loot. No loot means the away missions are only for sightseeing or getting really minor shit. Congrats, you kill away missions that way.

It'd be cool if their lore was appreciated however this isn't Goonstation's adventure zones. I believe most people don't actually give a shit about the snowdin holo recordings sadly. You need some incentive to actually go there or else they may as well all be removed. If that was the case then I would heavily consider your idea of "away missions but it's a sightseeing tour"

You know The Wild West's wishgranter? There's no way it would stay if there wasn't a shit ton of faithless mobs to try and stop you. That is probably the most unique piece of "loot" in an away mission too.
Last edited by Ayy Lemoh on Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by wesoda25 » #562180

You would go there for the enjoyment of the journey, not for the gamer loot that makes people go horizontal quicker at the end of it. By making people unable to return you'd basically force this. If your worry is people trying to powergame in order to get their gamer loot back in time, then the window would be shortened. None of your assumptions about people going mean shit though because obviously these ideas aren't meant for /TG/ - at least our current playerbase and mindset
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #562181

wesoda25 wrote:You would go there for the enjoyment of the journey, not for the gamer loot that makes people go horizontal quicker at the end of it. By making people unable to return you'd basically force this. If your worry is people trying to powergame in order to get their gamer loot back in time, then the window would be shortened. None of your assumptions about people going mean shit though because obviously these ideas aren't meant for /TG/ - at least our current playerbase and mindset
That works best for admin events. If it's something like an away mission that I can look up myself then the excitement of adventure goes down really low unless it's with some real homies.

Also the solution isn't to make my pessimistic view of what would happen into a fucking reality by lowering the away mission timer to something like 2 minutes and 5 seconds. How the fuck is anyone going to explore then?
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Qbopper » #562182

Mickyan wrote:Besides this comes up occasionally and I still see no reason why qualifying for a harmless gimmick should require spending half the round on construction and the other half staring at a wall hoping at least one person will notice the thing you built in the middle of nowhere
you have to build shit in the middle of nowhere because every free space there used to be in maps has been taken up by the prefab shit and moved to the depths of maint where approximately 0 people will see or care about it
Ayy Lemoh wrote:Away missions are fun in groups of people. If it's something like an old PRed away mission then less people may be interested however if it's an event tier away mission then it will have a lot of people. The point is that it has the potential to be quite enjoyable in groups bigger than three.

A timer would basically throw all that out the window because now groups of 1-3 are the mandatory meta otherwise you're gonna be fucking trapped in The Wild West due to some shitty scenario where non-metafriend Steve Steve is now hated for taking too fucking long to powergame his own kit while everyone else already had max upgrades before exiting the station. Gee, that sure sounds fucking fun and interesting to do in groups. It literally just feeds into the powergaming problem that a lot of people have with away missions lol
going to be honest my actual design take is "remove fucking away missions entirely" but even in a hypothetical design changes thread I can't imagine a scenario where that would ever actually be allowed to happen

the entire idea of away missions/current mining is against the idea of the game both IC and OOC and it's just there because it's cool, not because it's actually healthy for the game

I didn't pretend my ideas were particularly good or well thought out wrt that, I'm much better at identifying the problems than actually proposing solutions; all I know is that leaving the station is kinda dumb
Ayy Lemoh wrote: Even if you think space exploration sucks, some of the ruins should still stay no matter. Imagine how retarded that'd be if the station was now only one z-level so therefore you could just patrol the z-level border, find any spaced bodies, and basically nullify the strategy of spacing your victims. Shit like asteroids, completely destroyed ruins, and probably some other stuff like the adminbus meme would probably make no sense as away mission tier content.
i'm specifically talking about stuff with loot, i did not propose that the station z level be all there is

incentivizing space exploration with loot encourages people to fuck off which doesn't help progress the story of the round in a meaningful way
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Perhaps away missions shouldn't be focused on combat, then.
Then why the fuck would anyone go on them?

No combat means you can't really justify loot. No loot means the away missions are only for sightseeing or getting really minor shit. Congrats, you kill away missions that way.

It'd be cool if their lore was appreciated however this isn't Goonstation's adventure zones where people actually give a shit about the snowdin holo recordings sadly. You need some incentive to actually go there or else they may as well all be removed. If that was the case then I would heavily consider your idea of "away missions but it's a sightseeing tour"

You know The Wild West's wishgranter? There's no way it would stay if there wasn't a shit ton of faithless mobs to try and stop you. That is probably the most unique piece of "loot" in an away mission too.
this is basically more reason for there not to be away missions imo

again, "scrap them entirely" was my initial thinking, but people are so attached to stuff like away missions as a concept that I can't even imagine a scenario where they get removed
wesoda25 wrote:You would go there for the enjoyment of the journey, not for the gamer loot that makes people go horizontal quicker at the end of it.
a nice notion but even during the older days of /tg/ the novelty would wear off after a few missions and there'd be no point

you could add loot that helps with other departments which I was going to touch on in a follow up but i'm hungy and don't feel like writing more today because i bet people will try to actually fight me over a thread i labelled "hypothetical"
Ayy Lemoh wrote:lowering the away mission timer to something like 2 minutes and 5 seconds. How the fuck is anyone going to explore then?
straight up lying about what I wrote down is kind of annoying because people will read your post and think I actually advocated for a 2 minute away mission timer
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #562183

Qbopper wrote:straight up lying about what I wrote down is kind of annoying because people will read your post and think I actually advocated for a 2 minute away mission timer
I wasn't quoting you for that though. I was referencing wesoda's idea of lowering the time.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Qbopper » #562189

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Qbopper wrote:straight up lying about what I wrote down is kind of annoying because people will read your post and think I actually advocated for a 2 minute away mission timer
I wasn't quoting you for that though. I was referencing wesoda's idea of lowering the time.
perfect example of my point because i'm a dipshit and can't read
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Shadowflame909 » #562190

I thought my reel steel lavaland reworked VR idea was pretty good
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Mickyan » #562192

Qbopper wrote: you have to build shit in the middle of nowhere because every free space there used to be in maps has been taken up by the prefab shit and moved to the depths of maint where approximately 0 people will see or care about it
None of the "prefab shit" is in desirable positions, not even box has accessible rooms from outside of maintenance because all of the hallway facing space is reserved for departments.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Reeeee » #562204

Mickyan wrote: None of the "prefab shit" is in desirable positions, not even box has accessible rooms from outside of maintenance because all of the hallway facing space is reserved for departments.
That's more of an desire to do so than issue with maps. And effort. Ask Ekat where to put stuff, she always has storefronts in weird places.
Box, meta and delta have prefab storefronts doe, imaginably you can squeeze one in anywhere you want with a full toolbox and bit of metal. Most of the stations have funny little nooks you can build stuff into if you have the desire to do so even in main hallways... Box next to cargo, meta across cargo and delta next to the EVA has the storefronts. There's always the "do it yourself shuttle" nobody objects to being bought if you need more space than that.
Or the good old auxbase if you wanna be left alone with your project and then get a shuttle beacon it comes with and set it to be "open" to the public. Hardcore Bobs do a "massdriver from chapel bar in space".
Nobody uses a lot of the shit in the station anyway, courtroom and showroom are just empty space for wannabe Bob the Builders and there is a hell of a lot of empty space to utilize between it all if you just go in and start deconning walls out for your shit.
There's even a stack of metal and glass in tool storage, just sitting there to be used in process of "making shit".
I should know, i have made shit in my time as a player.

It's more of an "people would rather kill other people" issue than any design aspect that's royally fucked.
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by oranges » #562414

love your work chief
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by Helios » #562532

I disagree with you when it comes to Mining.
The purpose of Lavalands is to have an ultra low population area, that allows group antags to build a space of their own. That's why you always see Cults on Lavalands. It gives them a space they can take control of, that someone won't randomly stumble into, rather than anything they can do in maintenance. The entire cult rune distinction, as to on/off the station, is to balance the runes. Some you can do from the safety of your own base, and others that require you to have the risk of being on station. If you removed this feature, it would make it impossible to go slow during a cult round, which would limit the round time significantly, which might be more of an issue on Manuel, doubly so on Box
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Re: hypothetical design shit

Post by cacogen » #562549

is this in the discord too
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