official headmin election 13 thread (NO LONGER PRE-ELECTION EDITION)

[Capsandi]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Election 13's primary debate is shaping up to be whether or not to deadmin Sticky. This reveals Sticky's immense power over the headmins.

[cacogen]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

[Armhulen]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

Yes, we made this entire forum for you, everything is about you! In fact, this entire election was just so we could all react to what you have to say!

[thehogshotgun]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

Yes, we made this entire forum for you, everything is about you! In fact, this entire election was just so we could all react to what you have to say!

Alternate thread title: Armhulen copes and seethes aggressively

[Armhulen]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

Yes, we made this entire forum for you, everything is about you! In fact, this entire election was just so we could all react to what you have to say!

Alternate thread title: Armhulen copes and seethes aggressively

I can only take so much before I

[cacogen]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

Yes, we made this entire forum for you, everything is about you! In fact, this entire election was just so we could all react to what you have to say!

Do you honestly read that post like that or do you just hate the idea of meaningful transparency? It's weird you'd react like this because you're the one holding court in this thread and you're the one saying the inactive admin thing isn't a real issue. I agree with what you've said in this thread and I don't know if you're running but any desire to see you as headmin rapidly diminished. You made the forum? TLE, is that you?

[Super Aggro Crag]

If that's ur only issue with Naloac after 6 months he was probably doing alright

This term was pretty good loved the headmins.

yeah i really dug dom and coco

[Rohen_Tahir]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

Yes, we made this entire forum for you, everything is about you! In fact, this entire election was just so we could all react to what you have to say!

You both need therapy.

[Super Aggro Crag]

people who live in glass houses should shit in the basement

[Armhulen]

people who live in glass houses should shit in the basement

hahaha i've never heard this before it's poetry

[Super Aggro Crag]

ive said it at least twice

[BONERMASTER]

Concerned about jannie deep state? Here is a wild thought: Give your playervote to a player instead. What do you think about that?

[actioninja]

Concerned about jannie deep state? Here is a wild thought: Give your playervote to a player instead. What do you think about that?

the player candidates are always dogshit. They're either literally whos or people I know the name of for the wrong reasons.

[kopoba]

what headmins even doing? just voting yes or no on ban appeals?

[cacogen]

player vote is about name recognition and false promises

Yeah

I'm not sure what to base my vote on given most of what the admins do isn't visible to us I think last time I just voted for Bindy because it seemed appropriate

Really makes you think

It occurred to me this evening this is like I was taking what Armhulen said and insultingly suggesting I'd already said it instead of agreeing with him and then adding what I'd said in that context to make the implication more obvious

Anyway while admins who Rarely play should have their basic human rights stripped from them in the way Stickymayhem alluded to and should not be consulted beforehand like Misdoubtful suggested and while the threshold for inactivity should be far higher than 5 hours in three months the real issue is the player vote being a running joke given the lack of transparency in the day to day decision making of the admins to the point where they have no idea who they're actually voting for but I don't think anything I can say about it is going to make people acknowledge this

[Armhulen]

I was also too rude to you cacogen so i made you a card, sorry :^(

[terranaut]

player vote is about name recognition and false promises

Yeah

I'm not sure what to base my vote on given most of what the admins do isn't visible to us I think last time I just voted for Bindy because it seemed appropriate

Really makes you think

It occurred to me this evening this is like I was taking what Armhulen said and insultingly suggesting I'd already said it instead of agreeing with him and then adding what I'd said in that context to make the implication more obvious

Anyway while admins who Rarely play should have their basic human rights stripped from them in the way Stickymayhem alluded to and should not be consulted beforehand like Misdoubtful suggested and while the threshold for inactivity should be far higher than 5 hours in three months the real issue is the player vote being a running joke given the lack of transparency in the day to day decision making of the admins to the point where they have no idea who they're actually voting for but I don't think anything I can say about it is going to make people acknowledge this

i could give you an effort post in reply to this but i'm just gonna do what an admin would do and lolpost because i belong to the superior admin caste and you're just a stinky player
lol

[trollbreeder]

i could give you an effort post in reply to this but i'm just gonna do what an admin would do and lolpost because i belong to the superior admin caste and you're just a stinky player
lol

I doubt you're still in the admin caste

[terranaut]

i could give you an effort post in reply to this but i'm just gonna do what an admin would do and lolpost because i belong to the superior admin caste and you're just a stinky player
lol

I doubt you're still in the admin caste

i specifically prefaced my post with "im going to do what an admin would do"

[Mothblocks]

just talked with the admins and they told me to give terra an honorary thank you for his hard work. we couldn't do it without viewers like you

[terranaut]

please, no thanks, i do it for free just like the jannies

[Domitius]

I said the thing about players not having anything meaningful to base their vote on due to a lack of transparency that's as good as baked in at this point and within two posts it went off in the more comfortable direction of the inactive admin Deep State and vigorous debate about the appropriateness of half-measures (like filtering admins with less than 5 hours playtime in three months) that could be taken to deal with the apparent issue.

The candidates individual threads will hopefully provide some meaningful background to make an informed vote. With your call for transparency, potentially somebody who is running who supports public ban appeals might be up your alley(As much as I abhor public ban lists).

Regarding transparency, to be real the only places you're going to talk to or see admins is when online either doing events or being on either side of an ahelp. Think about the candidates you've interacted with during an ahelp who were helpful or at least treated you fairly. In discord there is a couple channels we mostly throw catgirl images around in and while online it's mostly observing and not really chatting.

What would meaningful transparency look like to you?

[Tlaltecuhtli]

adminchat being publically logged especially when someone get banned cause some third party jannie said so

[Armhulen]

adminchat being publically logged especially when someone get banned cause some third party jannie said so

How do you solve the problem of us discussing IPs, hidden notes (is this guy metacomming etc stuff that would ruin the point if player knows) and also us freely talking about rounds in progress? I'm not trying to sass you but these are the problems that need fixing if you make it public

[Tlaltecuhtli]

remove hidden notes, ban metacommers and adminchat being in the round end logs

[Armhulen]

Maybe I should have explained a bit more about catching metacommers. round end logs is pretty sweet solution doe if we're entertaining the idea

[wesoda25]

Private discussion would then be moved to other channels and you wouldn’t really be getting anything out of it.

Perhaps if we had some sort of established framework for requesting asay/ticket logs of a particular round be publicized, which goes to game admins who decide whether they’re safe to release (and prune sensitive or private information from them).

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if admins are talking about their private bank account and personal infos like home adress and cell phone in admin chat maybe they arent using their tools right

[wesoda25]

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

[Armhulen]

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

[Mothblocks]

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

or the inevitability of just a new discord being created tbh

[Armhulen]

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

or the inevitability of just a new discord being created tbh

Well I guess you could have that be a rule headmins set, unlike players we can only fragment if headmins let us and they really shouldn't!!

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if you have nothing to hide you can answer tickets and make events as admin just fine ?

[saprasam]

what headmins even doing? just voting yes or no on ban appeals?

they change configs for policies & can overturn & accept ban appeals and complains respectively

[cacogen]

I was also too rude to you cacogen so i made you a card, sorry :^(

The previous evening I had been sipping from my wine goblet having just cut into my steak (rare) mulling over the day's events and it suddenly occurred to me my autism had gotten the better of me once again. Anyway, thank you I'm going to put this on the fridge.

[Rohen_Tahir]

https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... video0.mp4

[cacogen]

The candidates individual threads will hopefully provide some meaningful background to make an informed vote. With your call for transparency, potentially somebody who is running who supports public ban appeals might be up your alley(As much as I abhor public ban lists).

It's hard to take what people say they're going to do at face value without their past conduct to look at.

Regarding transparency, to be real the only places you're going to talk to or see admins is when online either doing events or being on either side of an ahelp. Think about the candidates you've interacted with during an ahelp who were helpful or at least treated you fairly. In discord there is a couple channels we mostly throw catgirl images around in and while online it's mostly observing and not really chatting.

What would meaningful transparency look like to you?

Logs of what the admins actually do. Things like adminhelp logs and probably asay to provide the necessary context. The specifics, like whether to censor player ckeys, how to hide IP addresses in chat, etc. could be discussed later.

I know the admins pride themselves in having exclusive access to adminbus. I think it being private is probably less of an issue and a harder one to solve. Admins would just talk elsewhere if it were publicised and things that they felt needed to be kept secret would be discussed in unlogged channels anyway.

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

or the inevitability of just a new discord being created tbh

Well I guess you could have that be a rule headmins set, unlike players we can only fragment if headmins let us and they really shouldn't!!

Well yes, discussing admin business outside of the bus without a valid reason would be against the rules and frowned upon. You'd still have your special off-topic chat for socialising with Rarely plays forevermins and even shittalking players I guess.

[Armhulen]

It's already against the rules to chillax and shitpost in adminbus if basically anything is going on, so the real issue is still losing the ability to talk about situations freely imo

[Coconutwarrior97]

It's already against the rules to chillax and shitpost in adminbus

you're damn right

[wesoda25]

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

I’ve rewritten this post like 3 times now and can’t seem to put it right so I’ll just say this.

If messages in adminbus were to be perfectly logged (achieved best probably by disallowing people from editing/deleting their own posts) I would be onboard with it. Until then discord is an inferior medium from a logging standpoint and thus makes internal investigation more difficult.

[Mothblocks]

time to go back to the irc bros lets go!

[Armhulen]

time to go back to the irc bros lets go!

mmm, microsoft comic chat...

Actually let me modify that by saying that you would definitely be getting something of value even if private discussion is moved to other channels, but I’m not convinced that’s worth it.

#admin-containment (just casual chat for admins)
#admin-bus
#admin-bus-players-cant-see-this

Which one are you gonna use?

I’ve rewritten this post like 3 times now and can’t seem to put it right so I’ll just say this.

If messages in adminbus were to be perfectly logged (achieved best probably by disallowing people from editing/deleting their own posts) I would be onboard with it. Until then discord is an inferior medium from a logging standpoint and thus makes internal investigation more difficult.

My issue is that you have to then censor anything you post in admin-bus like it would be publicly logged. no posting tickets, no posting ckeys, ips, cids, etc. god that'd be annoying censoring it all and deleting ips and the like after people read it

[wesoda25]

? I'm not proposing bus be made public, I'm talking about if asay was.

[Misdoubtful]

I’ve rewritten this post like 3 times now and can’t seem to put it right so I’ll just say this.

If messages in adminbus were to be perfectly logged (achieved best probably by disallowing people from editing/deleting their own posts) I would be onboard with it. Until then discord is an inferior medium from a logging standpoint and thus makes internal investigation more difficult.

My issue is that you have to then censor anything you post in admin-bus like it would be publicly logged. no posting tickets, no posting ckeys, ips, cids, etc. god that'd be annoying censoring it all and deleting ips and the like after people read it

Hypothetically for this: could do a separate channel just for that stuff and be like, "hey reference the thing I posted in 'info-bus' (or something I'm bad at names) about xyz". Its probably not the greatest solution and it adds a bit of work, but it is something. Certainly better than having to scrub and delete things.

Same could be done for asay, "hey I posted x in bus about 123".

Again though, not really the best.

[oranges]

it's pointless because the discussion just moves there, admin-auditorium literally existed for this exact principle and was completely unused, other than for memes

[Swept]

Who the fuck deleted my picture I drew

[Armhulen]

oranges is right, It doesn't really matter if i'm talking about bus or asay because of what the fruit said. We simply want to use the chat that is most convenient for us and there is nothing convenient with risking leaking player info by mindlessly chatting in asay/adminbus/otherwise

[wesoda25]

Oh I thought you were arguing in favor of public asay logs.

Private discussion would then be moved to other channels and you wouldn’t really be getting anything out of it.

Perhaps if we had some sort of established framework for requesting asay/ticket logs of a particular round be publicized, which goes to game admins who decide whether they’re safe to release (and prune sensitive or private information from them).

anyways i still think that'd ^ be cool something to think about for people trying to get the player vote!!

[Armhulen]

Oh I thought you were arguing in favor of public asay logs.

Private discussion would then be moved to other channels and you wouldn’t really be getting anything out of it.

Perhaps if we had some sort of established framework for requesting asay/ticket logs of a particular round be publicized, which goes to game admins who decide whether they’re safe to release (and prune sensitive or private information from them).

anyways i still think that'd ^ be cool something to think about for people trying to get the player vote!!

That already happens and it's pretty sick yo! In ban appeals and the like there are some logs that are raw only like href logs and players or admins can use those in ban appeals if it's relevant (players asking admins for some href logs of course instead of just grabbing it themselves, they still need to be pruned like normal)

[gum disease]

really surprised it's election time again

this term seemed really short!

[wesoda25]

That already happens and it's pretty sick yo! In ban appeals and the like there are some logs that are raw only like href logs and players or admins can use those in ban appeals if it's relevant (players asking admins for some href logs of course instead of just grabbing it themselves, they still need to be pruned like normal)

I was thinking more of an automated process. What if you're not making an appeal? Just somewhere a player can request logs for a round, give their reason, and then game admins can accept or deny the request and do the necessary pruning. Probably wouldn't be public.

Of course if admins are going to go through the effort it begs the question of, why not just report whatever behavior you are looking into to them in the first place? I'd understand if headmins didn't want to engage in another level of bureaucracy, since at the end of the day it's a game community and the administration regulates itself seemingly well enough already.

Just spitballing since people were talking about greater transparency.