Can we change how coderbus operates?

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:04 pm

It's a fucking shitshow, it has been for a long time but either it's just been shittier lately or I'm just sick of dealing with it.

Here's how it works:

1- Changes get added, no player input until it's in the goddamn changelog
2- Either someone has to make a feedback thread or the coder makes a feedback thread going "hey I fucked up the game, *rubs nipples*, tell me how BAAAAD it is now, mmmm"
3- Post on feedback, post on Github, it doesn't matter, because them listening to the player-base is OPTIONAL. it's constant damage control to keep the coder-ruined game-modes to <25%, that's really the best we can hope for.
4- Coders run coderbus and there's absolute shit for accountability. Coders only listen to other coders, and 95% of those guys play the game less often than I use lower-case in OOC. They have awful judgment about how players will react to changes or how certain changes will affect gameplay. A single day hasn't gone by where I haven't seen a complete asinine statement from a coder on coderbus, "YEA BUT NOBODY WOULD ACTUALLY USE MACROBOMBS TO SUICIDE BOMB AT ROUNDSTART, THEYD MISS OUT ON THEIR WHOLE ROUND!".

It's a broken process with a million ways to improve it, but until someone with authority shows up and says "yea this should be changed" we're all SOL.

Yes, people have a lot of different visions for this game, but that doesn't mean its impossible, or even difficult, to prevent these fucking awful changes from being slapped on without any forethought. I could've told you in a split-second of deliberation that giving traitors access to undetectable max-cap bombs at roundstart is going to just spark a long series of roundstart suicide bombing of critical station areas. Did we have a fucking memory wipe from then people could summon two syndiebombs at roundstart and every round had 4-6 explosions within the first 5 minutes? How was this going to turn out any differently?

Plenty of people in OOC and Feedback will complain about the results of coderbus shittery but nothing is going to change until the process changes. Macrobombs will get nerfed, Chemblobs will get fixed someday, traitors might even be fun to play in the next year or two, but in that time someone will find a way to ruin science, make nukeops blindingly OP or pathetically flaccid for a month, and then cult will probably get an overhaul that makes them less effective than fucking 2013 newlings.

Please, I want off this wild ride.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:21 pm #99375

You could hate oldman all you want, but he is right on the macrobombs part. Which supports most of what he is saying.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:23 pm #99377

I LOVE SCHIZOPHRENIC GAME DESIGN.

please for the love of god formulate a plan where you want the server to go, please.

Right now it's just some fucking dumpkin can decide that he wants to add x randomly and it makes no sense in the slightest but IT'S A FEATURE SO GOTTA ADD IT.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:29 pm #99380

macrobombs are getting removed along with microbombs probably

if you reply to this post with some snarky bullshit about "HAHA I TOLD U SO!!!" you accomplish nothing

Post by **Vekter** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:32 pm #99383

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station

Read this, be active in discussions, post in PRs you have questions/concerns about. Stop bitching about NO PLAYER INPUT UNTIL IT'S IN when you refuse to actually get involved in things. We're not making a thread for every little change.

On another note, I like how Robustin actually asks questions and wants to change shit, but I really wish he would figure out how to do so without sounding like a spoiled brat.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:33 pm

ThatSlyFox wrote:You could hate oldman all you want, but he is right on the macrobombs part. Which supports most of what he is saying.

Macrobombs is just the figurehead I need to highlight for even the most dense motherfuckers how shitty the process is right now.

Like someone just said, there's no fucking direction. Everyone just has their pet projects that get shoved down our throats instead of someone driving the bus toward something like "LETS MAKE THE MOST COMMON GAMETYPE ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY".

Even when Feedback forums try to give feedback you just have people who hear the message but don't know what it means. CREW WANTS MORE LETHALITY? WELL I GUESS THAT MEANS ROUNDSTART HIDDEN MAXCAP BOMBS.

Just complained to the 12-man adminbus that we need to reduce the weighting on traitormode, something that EVERYONE on the feedback forum agreed needed to be adjusted. Now with 4 macrobomb rounds in a row it's gotten excruciatingly obvious how much the weighting needs to be reworked. I say that they need to reduce traitor weighting while they're patching the bombs, so MrStonedOne bans me for the last 5 minutes of the round (as the HoS nonetheless) for "whining over something so minor".

I couldn't come up with a better parody of a broken, dysfunctional system if I tried.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:41 pm

Vekter wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station

Read this, be active in discussions, post in PRs you have questions/concerns about. Stop bitching about NO PLAYER INPUT UNTIL IT'S IN when you refuse to actually get involved in things. We're not making a thread for every little change.

On another note, I like how Robustin actually asks questions and wants to change shit, but I really wish he would figure out how to do so without sounding like a spoiled brat.

I don't think I ever had anyone respond to me on Github, address my concerns, or treat me like anything other than a sidebar ad that they need to ignore. Players have no authority there and its already inefficient trying to navigate between "I added a leather strap to the satchel in the dorms" and "Oh, I'm going to break an entire gametype in this pull". If I do get acknowledges its just someone going "Oh that's nice Oldman, you may play the game 1000x more than I do, but you don't know what youre talking about". Conversation over.

Look at Feedback, where we've all decided that player feedback belongs, and how people like Cheridan can walk into a thread that's 90% against locked nukeop hardsuits and the old explosive implant removal and proceed to ignore what everyone is saying, say something about "NukeOp RP benefits from implant removal", and then disappear with 0 accountability while we all shout into an empty room about how awful it is.

If coders come to Feedback, the "player's turf", and feel free to ignore polls, overwhelming consensus, and compelling arguments for viable alternatives... how in the world is posting on Github where they can delete your comment/thread on a whim, going to suddenly catch their ear.

This game has a decade of weekly/monthly changes that led us to where we are today. Would it really be so bad if we put a quality control mechanism between the Coderbus and the players?

"Coders can self-regulate" or "Coders know what they're doing" or "Coders can anticipate how their changes will affect the game" have all been unequivocally disproven. Yet until the process changes, nothing changes.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:42 pm #99393

LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:44 pm #99395

wow it's almost like tgstation is an open source project that people code for in their free time and not a tightly developed game that is worked on around the clock by a dedicated studio

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:46 pm #99396

iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

It's not my job, I never said it was, so stop with this whole
" u can change it u really want"

i want to play this fucking game not spend my time working some autism language to be able to stop shitty changes or whatever. That is a facetious argument and please stop spouting it.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:49 pm

iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

It took me reading one Github page with a proposal getting unilaterally shut down by Cheridan and "mein code" before I decided I would never put myself in that position.

If I magically became a BYOND paragon tomorrow, I'd still spend 90% of my time arguing with other coders about why their "features" need to go.

If 20 people posting on Feedback can't convince someone to revert Cheridan's awful nukeop changes, how is learning to code, making a reversion pull request myself, and then having Cheridan shut it down any different?

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:53 pm

Ricotez wrote:wow it's almost like tgstation is an open source project that people code for in their free time and not a tightly developed game that is worked on around the clock by a dedicated studio

Logical fallacies aren't getting you anywhere.

I don't expect a fucking dev company with a roadmap, IGN interviews, and a teaser trailer for every patch. God knows how many millions of hours have been put just into the administration and coding of this game. Is it really asking much for game-changing features to get a run by the headmins, or the community, or SOMEONE before we spend a weekend dying to macrobombs because "whoops I didn't see that coming".

As long as CODERS get the final say on what CODERS add to the game, nothing's going to change. Even coders who seem to have their head out of their ass don't have the time or the authority to go around policing these cancerous changes.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:58 pm #99404

Something that crossposts open pull request to the forums would probably be a good idea. I know it's been brought up before.

There's no saying github people would look at them though, those PRs are a world unto themselves sometimes. I'd try to at least?

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:02 pm #99405

Incoming wrote:Something that crossposts open pull request to the forums would probably be a good idea. I know it's been brought up before.

There's no saying github people would look at them though, those PRs are a world unto themselves sometimes. I'd try to at least?

We actually have code working for autoposting PRs to the gameservers when they're opened and closed/merged. It's not running for some reason

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:13 pm #99409

Oldman is the balancing factor on a lot of game mechanics.
Also macrobombs were just a silly idea, whoever put them in clearly didn't understand the implications of what they were doing.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:17 pm

iamgoofball wrote:
Incoming wrote:Something that crossposts open pull request to the forums would probably be a good idea. I know it's been brought up before.

There's no saying github people would look at them though, those PRs are a world unto themselves sometimes. I'd try to at least?
We actually have code working for autoposting PRs to the gameservers when they're opened and closed/merged. It's not running for some reason

I don't even have to call you out but I was so desperate to get Morphine Blob removed after TWO github requests were instantly shut down by a single individual because my problems with morphine blob weren't "specific enough", that I actually fucking messaged you and tried to convince you to remove morphine blob.

You said you were busy, and that Morphine blob wasn't your fault, you left a comment on Github. That was on May 05.

I took you until June 21st to actually remove that stupid fucking shit. It's a goddamn blob who's clothing/spacesuit/internal penetrating smoke will leave you knocked out for 30 minutes, fought in maint where 1x1 halls are your only option, and where the smoke lasts as long as it takes to respawn another miniblob. It was an unequivocal fucking disaster of a "feature" and while it never should've been added, the fact it took nearly two months to fix after my constant harassing on Github, OOC, Feedback forums, and private messages shows just how goddamn unresponsive you guys are.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:22 pm #99416

There's no specific directional unity for how changes are made, stuff feels all over the place

PRs are made by and often bogged down by people who do not play the game.

But that's how it is, and I don't see it ever changing.

also @oldman iirc morphine omnizine and some other blobs were done by incoming not goofball

onleavedontatme · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:41 pm

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and the situation we have isnt ideal, but you also have two fundamentally different demands

1)Cheridan needs to listen to people more (nuke, not closing PRs he disagrees with)

2)Cheridan needs to listen to people less (deciding a game direction, closing PRs that are bad)

Someone choosing a direction for the game will unavoidably result in closed PRs and upset people

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:52 pm #99431

iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

>coding
>easy
>fuck you

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:57 pm #99434

Kor wrote:I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and the situation we have isnt ideal, but you also have two fundamentally different demands

1)Cheridan needs to listen to people more (nuke, not closing PRs he disagrees with)

2)Cheridan needs to listen to people less (deciding a game direction, closing PRs that are bad)

Someone choosing a direction for the game will unavoidably result in closed PRs and upset people

There's a difference between
listening to people more, when 30 people are all saying that X change is bad, here are the extensive reasons why, and;
Listening to people less, when people agree on the general direction X gamemode/feature/whatever should be going, then one person suggests something completely at odds with it.

And as for the whole 'learn to code' argument, thats frankly not relevent, since learning to code helps you make new features you want, it doesn't stop other people's bad pr's getting merged, which is what this thread is about.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:00 pm #99437

Honestly, Shit rolls down hill, Blame the guy who lets bad PRs through and ignores reasonable feedback.
Optional ignoring of feedback is critical for balance, Or we'd all still be dealing with engineers with undisarmable stun baton equivalents who run at maximum byond speed meaning it's impossible to make one group faster than another through chems/whathaveyou. Both highly disliked, both good for balance.

But just ignoring problems doesn't work, and learn2code faggots need to shut the fuck up, it was dumb when uhangi said it, it's dumb when you say it, I don't have the commitment to learn a language for 2d spessman so I can watch waggling cat tails merge while my code gets ignored because I'm not friendly enough with the maintainer. And why should I bother? we got enough coders to make the game good, More than enough qualified people to run the show, this isn't about that, it's about coders running it into the ground with ill thought out game breaking changes that take weeks to revert or fix.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:02 pm #99439

it is really true, it got better after paprika left (or at least less infuriating) but shit goes get through way too fast and with little player input. it seems like a tiny minority can push through a change and then it will be IMMEDIATELY ENTRENCHED unless 95% of everyone screams for weeks about how terrible it is. it should be easier to revert things, and i have nothing against any coder personally but seriously if shit gets in that's openly broken it should just get pulled out of the game in less than a day so it can be worked on. i'm looking at you goofchem, macrobomb, some chemblob variants etc. shit can clearly be broken, even non-conceptually and stay in FOREVER

i don't know what it is exactly but it feels like i could become a coder tomorrow and deliberately ruin the game and inertia would keep most of the broken shit i threw in there for laughs.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:04 pm #99441

John_Oxford wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

>coding
>easy
>fuck you

No, coding is actually really easy, especially with BYOND.

It's really simple compared to other languages.

onleavedontatme · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:12 pm

lumipharon wrote: And as for the whole 'learn to code' argument, thats frankly not relevent, since learning to code helps you make new features you want, it doesn't stop other people's bad pr's getting merged, which is what this thread is about.

Completely agreed on that at least. There have been 67 PRs merged this week. It's nonsense to suggest people "be the change they want to see" when there is so much happening.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:20 pm #99449

Bluespace wrote:Oldman is the balancing factor on a lot of game mechanics.
Also macrobombs were just a silly idea, whoever put them in clearly didn't understand the implications of what they were doing.

And yet when we look at the PR, all we see are a bunch of people agreeing that macrobombs sound lovely.

"Hell yes!"

"Neat in theory but sounds incredibly tedious in practice. Hope you like implanters."

"Being able to bomb cap is pretty hilarious though."

"Being able to literally blow your enemies apart with a macrobomb is cool"

ONE EXCEPTION: "If a traitor with the "die gloriously" objective can get near their target they can explosively murder them, which, while glorious, is kind of bullshit."

Which is quickly ignored: "They could do it with toxins And doesn't even take TC"

"There's no problem with that because they can already do it for free with toxins."

At least that was disagreed with and noted as a poor argument, to which it was said:

"Okay."

Then we move on, someone mentions that macrobombs aren't actually a max cap, so it's decided that macrobombs will be made cheaper.

Others chip in to support macrobombs:

"Also I like the concept of the macrobomb implant"

And pretty much at that point it's ready to merge. Only one person appeared to believe macrobombs would lead to bullshit gameplay, in what was a reasonably long discussion. Oldman's not wrong, there is something seriously wrong with how certain coders make decisions about what goes into the game.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:27 pm #99454

iamgoofball wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

>coding
>easy
>fuck you
No, coding is actually really easy, especially with BYOND.

It's really simple compared to other languages.

it's still a programming language

you still have to have pseudo-autism to WANT to learn a programming language.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:30 pm #99455

in the feedback thread (before the pr got merged) I told goof repeatedly that macrobombs while not as bad in nuke, would get abused to shit in traitor/DA round start.

And even without feedback, look at old syndie bombs. People used to drop those fuckers at round start all the time when they were 5tc. Macrobombs are easily more powerful then 2 of them, and can be detonated anywhere with no way to stop it. People like to ruin other people's fun. That is in itself fun. Long experience in ss13 (also in eve) has taught me that this is a simple fact.

lumipharon wrote:
A single new bomb cap bomb will utterly assblast the entire brig (since it's mainly glass). Pretty meh if traitors can do that, especially considering you could get them in rng crates + extra shit.

>And? it's trivially easy to make a maxcap bomb in science nowadays, so it's really no different. If anything this one is worse because this one is guaranteed to kill you in the process.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Blowing up two heads of staff and 3 security officers is well worth being taken out of the round. Suicide bombing is tremendously fun.

>Then what's the problem here if it's fun?

Incomptinence · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:41 pm

We aren't even sacrificing enjoyable play* for "balance" (asymmetry is the absolute heart of ss13) or "realism" (fucking 2d no z). All we do it for is vision, head coder wants head coder gets little rhyme or reason other than that.

Most pull requests that don't break the game should go through, including revert pulls. Even with head coders guarding the gate keeping the smelly reverts out literal madness like throwularity stress the server to the limit and they stay just because a head coder wants them there. Baseline functionality anarchy would be better than code emperors of the broken shit.

* For most people nuke agents blowing me up is actually really fun for me but I am weird like that.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:45 pm #99463

lumipharon wrote: Blowing up two heads of staff and 3 security officers is well worth being taken out of the round. Suicide bombing is tremendously fun.

>Then what's the problem here if it's fun?

Duuuuurh Your lack of foresight disturbs me.

What about the other five people in the given example?
Ya know, the ones who literately no amount of skill or planning could have saved?

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:02 am #99470

I'm quoting goof.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3947

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:26 am

The Github comments are pretty much the closest thing we'll ever get to 100% affirmative proof that coders cannot be trusted to self-regulate.

Tune out the dissent, let the other 5 dudes who play this game once a month cheer you on, boom macrobombs get merged.

Also anyone who thinks that macrobombs and toxins are even remotely comparable needs to take a break from coding and actually play the fucking game for a while.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:55 am #99494

For all I know, it's only specific coders that are shit, and one-and-a-half of them got removed.
Supervising coderbus will never happen, though.

Also, don't you think the more appropriate flow would be 'tune out dissent, let rest of coderbus cheer you on, macrobombs get merged, THEN boom''?

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:14 am #99506

Vekter wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station

Read this, be active in discussions, post in PRs you have questions/concerns about. Stop bitching about NO PLAYER INPUT UNTIL IT'S IN when you refuse to actually get involved in things. We're not making a thread for every little change.

On another note, I like how Robustin actually asks questions and wants to change shit, but I really wish he would figure out how to do so without sounding like a spoiled brat.

before macrobombs got added i pointed out how much of a shitshow it would be for rounds like double agents/in general and was ignored (although to be honest this was on the feedback forums, but still)
before the crusher being upgradable got added I pointed out how insanely broken it is for generating infinite materials and was ignored

both of these things were merged anyways ignoring my input and both of these issues i pointed out were 100% true

i think it's fair to say that we do give you feedback, but you guys also need to work on your listening skills and meet us halfway, too

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:17 am #99509

Being able to analyze feedback effectively instead of just ignoring them/being dictated by them is unfortunately a rare skill to have.

So I wouldn't blame them too much.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:56 am

Falamazeer wrote:
lumipharon wrote: Blowing up two heads of staff and 3 security officers is well worth being taken out of the round. Suicide bombing is tremendously fun.

>Then what's the problem here if it's fun?
Duuuuurh Your lack of foresight disturbs me.

What about the other five people in the given example?
Ya know, the ones who literately no amount of skill or planning could have saved?

I was addressing the fact that people WILL suicide bomb because it is fun for them. And that it is a problem because of the other people being taken out

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:45 am #99556

Coders only listen to other coders

No. Coders disagree with each other all the time, some will listen to feedback and some won't. The problem is at the head of the project, we have no direction, so if it's not a blatantly bad feature it will get merged, assuming the code meets the standards. Each coder does what they want, be it bug fixes or features. You can't group all the coders together because none of us actually work together, just help out with coding if asked.

Also stop generalizing.

Incomptinence · Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:03 am

Coders don't even listen to coders it is the kingdom of head coders what merges is law.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:18 am #99561

Can confirm, I don't really listen to anybody. I'll try to tweak shit if people bring up [good points/my own shitty coding mistakes] though, that's why I usually PR my features well before they're finished.

Honestly the freedom is what makes it fun and worth doing it for free. If you put some sort of hardline system in that makes coding a pain in the ass a lot of people will probably just stop coding as much.

Unless you pay me, then you can tell me to do whatever. Please someone, pay me to code spacemans, it's the only thing I'm goodish at.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:24 am #99567

Head Coders just don't usually give a shit with PR's unless it's something they have a vested interest in. So long as your PR does not break everything (even then that's not stopped things before) then it may well be merged.

Honestly the people in charge merging changes to the game should actually care about the game and have good logical sense on what a change will do. Macrobombs are the tip of the iceberg.

Simply put, head coders don't have a spine, unless it's to do with their own work.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:25 am #99599

Anyway don't know why it took so long but the answer is no

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:50 am

Scott wrote:
Coders only listen to other coders
No. Coders disagree with each other all the time, some will listen to feedback and some won't. The problem is at the head of the project, we have no direction, so if it's not a blatantly bad feature it will get merged, assuming the code meets the standards. Each coder does what they want, be it bug fixes or features. You can't group all the coders together because none of us actually work together, just help out with coding if asked.

Also stop generalizing.

I'm saying they at least will listen... not "obey" but "listen".

I don't mean to imply you're a collective, but the process of quality control is not working for you guys. Cheridan and whoever else is calling the shots over there have made it clear they have, at best, an extremely tenuous understanding of how the game works and what's healthy for the community. There needs to be some additional barrier between coderbus and what actually gets merged.

Major features should be brought to feedback BEFORE they are added, not every change needs to be tried in the crucible of live rounds for people to tell you how shitty it is. Anyone who has a memory over 1-2 years old should remember what happened when traitors/DA's could make two syndicate bombs at roundstart. People will suicide bomb at roundstart if given the chance, and with the new maxcap many experienced players could have told you with 100% certainty that this change was going to be absolute shit that got major departments destroyed within seconds of the game starting.

Major changes go to a feedback poll, if it can't muster 40% approval it goes back to github for tweaking until you can convince people its at least worth trying. Anything has to be better than "hey I merged this thing that is pretty obviously going to ruin a certain gametype/item/crew job, if you're lucky someone might come fix it in a few months, chao".

Edit: When I first came back I was pleased that the admins got their shit together real quick after a couple awful weeks of endless button pressing. Now the vast majority of rounds play out naturally instead of "HEY CENTCOM HERE GUESS WHO JUST PRESS THE WIZARD BUTTON 5 TIMES". If nothing is going to formally change about the coderbus process, and it really, really does need changes... then at least can you try to put on your best fucking thinking caps and try real hard to envision how your pull request could completely fuck up the game?

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:02 am

I personally think Miauw should take over as project lead, since he seems to have a pretty good hold on "That's a fucking retarded idea"

dionysus24779 · Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:49 am

iamgoofball wrote:LEARN TO CODE

ITS EASY

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO BE

If it's so easy... then teach me?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:06 pm #99677

As other people have noted knowing how or how not to code makes no difference, your opinions just as relevant or ignored irrespective of your coding knowledge.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:06 pm #99686

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I personally think Miauw should take over as project lead, since he seems to have a pretty good hold on "That's a fucking retarded idea"

>Muh Urist Station circle jerk

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:32 pm #99687

i never actually coded anything for urist mcstation. (and i havent played there in ages)
they still use my research department design, though, and I shitpost the B12 SS13 thread with updates on tgstation drama.

also, i have expressed my thoughts on polls so many times that i will not bother repeating them yet again (i should probably type up a copy&paste for that sometime).
personally, I will make a feedback thread beforehand for all my changes, but there is no real way to enforce this for others. making a rule that there has to be a feedback thread would be a good idea, though, and I've sort of been pushing for it for a while, without much success. (automating it would be rather iffy because most people dont make their PR descs until a bit later, they just upload their code and code on, only adding the desc when it's more or less finished).
in general, we do (i do, at least, and most others do too.) listen to good feedback, but I stopped trying to filter out the good points full of rage-filled comments/posts/threads long ago to save myself some sleepness nights.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:00 pm #99698

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Scott wrote:
Coders only listen to other coders
No. Coders disagree with each other all the time, some will listen to feedback and some won't. The problem is at the head of the project, we have no direction, so if it's not a blatantly bad feature it will get merged, assuming the code meets the standards. Each coder does what they want, be it bug fixes or features. You can't group all the coders together because none of us actually work together, just help out with coding if asked.

Also stop generalizing.
I'm saying they at least will listen... not "obey" but "listen".

I don't mean to imply you're a collective, but the process of quality control is not working for you guys. Cheridan and whoever else is calling the shots over there have made it clear they have, at best, an extremely tenuous understanding of how the game works and what's healthy for the community. There needs to be some additional barrier between coderbus and what actually gets merged.

Major features should be brought to feedback BEFORE they are added, not every change needs to be tried in the crucible of live rounds for people to tell you how shitty it is. Anyone who has a memory over 1-2 years old should remember what happened when traitors/DA's could make two syndicate bombs at roundstart. People will suicide bomb at roundstart if given the chance, and with the new maxcap many experienced players could have told you with 100% certainty that this change was going to be absolute shit that got major departments destroyed within seconds of the game starting.

Major changes go to a feedback poll, if it can't muster 40% approval it goes back to github for tweaking until you can convince people its at least worth trying. Anything has to be better than "hey I merged this thing that is pretty obviously going to ruin a certain gametype/item/crew job, if you're lucky someone might come fix it in a few months, chao".

Edit: When I first came back I was pleased that the admins got their shit together real quick after a couple awful weeks of endless button pressing. Now the vast majority of rounds play out naturally instead of "HEY CENTCOM HERE GUESS WHO JUST PRESS THE WIZARD BUTTON 5 TIMES". If nothing is going to formally change about the coderbus process, and it really, really does need changes... then at least can you try to put on your best fucking thinking caps and try real hard to envision how your pull request could completely fuck up the game?

I agree, there needs to be a system for getting major things into the game. That's a complaint you have to take directly to the headcoders.

Kyrah Abattoir · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:18 pm

Well as soon as I'm on the payroll, feel free to tell me what to do. But until then I'll stick on doing what I think is right, or interesting.

The rare few PRs I do are either maintenance work or personal projects anyway so it doesn't matter too much to me if they get merged or not.

Shadowlight213 · Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:56 pm

If you see a major problem with a pr, then post in the comments of the actual pr then. That's part of the reason why macrobombs got merged. People who realized the problems with them didn't post anything in the PR itself, where most of the attention is given to. It's not that hard to make a github account, and it will be paid more attention than the forums or OOC, as it's far more visible to coders and maintainers.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:40 pm #100126

Yeah, as much as you posture cjs you don't ever try to make your point on github, or even Coderbus IRC

I mean you have some good ideas and feedback, but you should be making them where it'd be the most visible and have the largest impact.