Play2win, why shouldn't I?

[Falamazeer]

But then he might greentext!

And you can't have that!

You're being ironic, but I un-apologetically play2win,
Why should I give someone who didn't earn it a win?
And even if I did, wouldn't it be on par with a participation trophy? If I caught you, you didn't really earn greentext did you?

this hatred of play2win is silly, come on guys, why is it fundamentally wrong for security to do it's job?
You roll your eyes, and lean on RP, but this is the state of the game, Sometimes you lose, And I fish for food, not catch and release.
Why act like I should be ashamed of my desire to dunk a traitor, and consume the redtext to gain it's delicious strength.

Also, fuck clowns.

[Ikarrus]

It's just a runaway interpretation of the being a dick rule, ie be mindful of other players' experience aka it's not all about you.

Similar meme terms are "powergaming" and "metagaming"

Imo, the issue shouldn't be about whether or not someone is playing for objectives. We just need to go back to what Rule 1 actually means to us. To me, it means maintaining a level of sportsmanship.

[Tornadium]

Sportsmanship tends to be a byword for "this is how you lose" in competitive play.

[Shaps-cloud]

That's not playing to win, that's playing to make other people lose. Going out of your way to fuck someone over when they're not a threat to you in any way is pretty unfun

[Takeguru]

Just for some mild clarification, this was in a FNR thread where an officer on a pod murdered an already detained traitor because ???

[invisty]

Play2win plebs admit they're so simple as to only achieve gratification through green/redtext. Everyone else is out to have fun.

[Takeguru]

There's a ban request thread up, it's the one about the blue alert thing.

TL;dr: Traitor gets stripped by HoS for no real reason, gets stuffed in the holding area next to the shuttle despite the only evidence against him being word of mouth, he gets out and buys tator gear on his PDA, presumably unseen, checks pod for his target, shuttle gets emagged, he climbs on board the first open pod where an officer stuns and cuffs him and dunks his sorry ass

[CPTANT]

I totally agree with the OP, I am getting a bit tired of the QQ that every time sec does their job they are accused of powergaming.

If you are crying about getting caught as a traitor by sec (without explicit meta) seriously man the fuck up.



I had to answer ahelps of BWOINK WHY DID YOU ARREST THAT GUY multiple times before even reaching the brig. Even with traitors who flat out murdered people because they scream I GET SEARCHED FOR NO RAISIN, while their prints are all over the murder scene.

Also there isn't even a rule against random searching on blue, yet players are getting secbans for it.

Ohw, and those reasons are clearly noted in their security file, so why do I have to answer ahelps about what admin can clearly see themselves.

[TheNightingale]

'Powergaming' is about knowledge or actions a typical SS13 employee really wouldn't do, to benefit yourself. Like carrying coffee in case of a cryosting, or stealing the spare ID when the HoS was about to secure it, or desyncing the borgs when you make them.

'Playing to win' is a misleading term - it's not playing for yourself to win, it's playing for other people to lose, like Shaps said. Some people get too hung up on the 'game' part of 'roleplaying game' and forget the roleplay entirely - executing a traitor for having a balloon is playing to win. It's also powergaming, because it's just a balloon.

Sure, this is a game, but it's a roleplaying game, and you are - oh, the humanity! - expected to roleplay. You're not MLG pro 360 noscope validhunter, you're Urist McGreyshirt with a strong sense of justice. Not everything is about greentext or redtext - sometimes it's the journey along the way that matters more.

[CPTANT]

'Powergaming' is about knowledge or actions a typical SS13 employee really wouldn't do, to benefit yourself. Like carrying coffee in case of a cryosting, or stealing the spare ID when the HoS was about to secure it, or desyncing the borgs when you make them.

'Playing to win' is a misleading term - it's not playing for yourself to win, it's playing for other people to lose, like Shaps said. Some people get too hung up on the 'game' part of 'roleplaying game' and forget the roleplay entirely - executing a traitor for having a balloon is playing to win. It's also powergaming, because it's just a balloon.

Sure, this is a game, but it's a roleplaying game, and you are - oh, the humanity! - expected to roleplay. You're not MLG pro 360 noscope validhunter, you're Urist McGreyshirt with a strong sense of justice. Not everything is about greentext or redtext - sometimes it's the journey along the way that matters more.

Waving around a a syndicate balloon on the shuttle is like waving an ISIS flag on air force one.

Now roleplay how security will react when you start waving an ISIS flag on air force one.

BUT ITS JUST A FLAG

[TheNightingale]

They'd give you funny looks and tell you to put it away, probably. They wouldn't smack you with a baton, handcuff you and execute you - and certainly not without a trial. (Can we bring this back? Trials for perma/execution sentences?)

EDIT: Actually, roleplaying how Security would respond is a great idea.
"Hey, officer, like my balloon?"
-twitch- "Do you have any idea what that S stands for? How many people have died to the Syndicate's agents just this week alone? My brother was murdered by one of those assholes, and I'll see us all burn before I see their death celebrated. Now, you feel like putting that thing away, or does my good friend Harmbaton have to do the talking?"
"Wait, wait, they killed your brother? I'm so sorry, I had no idea... I just saw it in a market stall and thought it looked cool!"
"Yeah, well. It doesn't 'look cool', it mocks the very lives of those who died defending people like you against them. So get lost, and pop the balloon or I'll pop you. Capiche?"

[ColonicAcid]

At the end of the day, SS13 is and always will be a roleplaying game. You take away the roleplaying aspect and you're left with some fucking garbage coded piece of shit game with shitty atmospheric simulation and stun based "lol u get hit u LOSE SON" combat.

Some people, for god knows what reason, enjoys this aspect more than roleplaying. This has and still does baffle me to a large extent.

[DemonFiren]

I hate ColonicAcid as much as the next person, but he has a point there.

[Ikarrus]

Sportsmanship tends to be a byword for "this is how you lose" in competitive play.

>SS13
>competitive play

Gee I wonder why people don't like playing with you.

[Tornadium]

Sportsmanship tends to be a byword for "this is how you lose" in competitive play.

>SS13
>competitive play

Gee I wonder why people don't like playing with you.

That's an assumption of my opinion.

People view this game as competitive, a lot of people don't have fun losing. I didn't express my personal opinion, more an observation.

Please don't jump to conclusions about what I do and don't think.

[Pybro]

Because sometimes winning isn't fun.

[Donk Honk]

Nothing wrong with playing the game. That includes winning.

However define winning?

Because there is a strict lines to everyone's view of "winning" or getting red text.

Ask yourself some of these questions, as traitor or security. There isn't meant to be a straight answer but just more of how you honestly view yourself.

- Do you try to take actions when in character? Why? Do you have fun doing it or do you just do them because you can?

- Do you consider other players choices or how they view your actions? Why or why not? Is the game for you or them, or all of you?

- Is killing another character without reason bad? Is it ever acceptable to kill another character, even RP wise based on a whim? Would you go further and destroy their body so they have no chance of re-entering the game? Even if it was over nothing?

- Do you get mad or do you shrug off things that bug other players in game? Can you have fun where others don't?

- Do you offer yourself for events because you want others to have fun or because you want to have some fun? Is it wrong to have fun yourself?

- When something new is added do you think of the RP implications it has or do you test it out to see how much better it makes the mechanics of the game? Why is either of this important to you, and how is it important to others in your view?

- Do you communicate easier in game or in OOC? Which do you find impedes you more when playing if either?

- Do you believe these reasons are enough to keep you coming back and playing the game?

NOTE: These are personal questions you should ask yourself. Not sme forum quiz to take and hope you get the right answers.

Do any of you feel like any of this affects your game play when you come on to game? Because again there is nothing wrong with winning or having fun winning.

The concern is do they understand the differences between having fun and winning to going all out for the win?

[Mister_Doc]

(Can we bring this back? Trials for perma/execution sentences?)"

As much as I'd love this there just usually isn't time in a round to do it decently because whiny bitches call the shuttle as soon as something breaks. That and shitlers love bombing trials.

[Saegrimr]

Because stealing a pair of magboots and idling in arrivals O2 locker isn't fun. You'll get your greentext though!
Because executing someone for having a pair of secret documents on them isn't fun, when you could just confiscate them, put a tracking implant in them, and tell them to fuck off. They'll run off and blow up a huge chunk of the station, flood plasma, god fucking knows what. But whatever they end up doing afterwards is more interesting then sitting in the warden's office until the CMO gets bored and calls the shuttle. Plus now you have someone to chase down in the chaos and personally beat the shit out of for going against your good will to cause more trouble!

[Falamazeer]

The RP arguments are weak, I see no reason I should have to engage in weak role play to let someone go, especially when this server and community has done absolutely nothing but brutally punish me since creation for trying such things as an officer.

it's the same logic you very same people use to whine about shooting first and asking questions later, Asking quesions first just tips your hand, and now you got an alert target to take down, who will feel completely justified in disarming you of your goods to protect themselves, because now they are harrison ford in the fugitive, and they didn't kill their wife!


I'll re-capture the light rp-roots as security the day I stop getting bent over for it.

[NikNakFlak]

BUT NIGHTINGALE WHAT IF THEY DO TRAITORESS STUFF AFTER THEY BUY THE BALLOON. IF I KNOW THEY ARE A SYNDICATE EVEN THOUGH THEY ONLY BOUGHT A BALLOON I CAN ASSUME THEY DID SOMETHING HORRIBLE LIKE MURDER MY BROTHER IN MAINTENENCE OR SOMETHING THEREFORE THEY MUST BE PURGED RIGHT NOW

[imblyings]

The line's not always clear. When players are allowed to know everything and roleplay competent people, the end result is really not too different from what some people call playing 2 win/powergaming/metagaming. The balancing factor is sportsmanship, where one example might be to acknowledge and play along with those who risk their own fun in order to bring fun to others.

Also oh my god after years and years of tldr posting, some of my views have finally stuck

I can die happy now

[Falamazeer]

At the least They violated a trade embargo by purchasing a product from an enemy of nanotrasen, the space cash that must have been spent on that baloon and thousands like it go to fund their efforts to destroy the company and it's employees wherever they find them.

So they are supplying the enemy with the funds to destroy us, a capital crime that deserves a brutal end in punishment.
Even if that's not the case, they had to have obtained it from the criminal syndicate somehow, and dealing in good faith with an enterprise dedicated to our destruction is punishable by summary execution.


This is the sort of thing you people call RP, mental gymnastics to get your way, and QQ at anyone who doesn't play along for being a play2win faggot.

Not saying I bother with balloon purchasers typically, but if you're stupid enough to broadcast it, why do I have to engage with thin watery role play and let you do it? I'm not the fun police, so I ignore it, but fuck man.

[Scones]

The balancing factor is sportsmanship

This, honestly.

As for balloon people, I literally only ever see them on the shuttle and at that point I don't see a reason to fuck with them, if they did their objective and bought a balloon to shit around and show off I won't question it.

[John_Oxford]

Its based around this.

"Powergamers" execute traitors to reduce the odds of them being killed by traitors, because traitors are the only people who can kill without consiquence.

The reason people like that aren't called "Smart" is because traitors like to be pansys and whine and bitch to admins because "lol i had a ebow, but i didn keel no 1 wif it, so ban sec offcur 4 arrestin me"

Life is unfair, so is this 2D spessman simulation. The problem is not with powergamers, its with traitors who want to be fucking pansys and not man up and deal with getting dunked



EDIT:

The same goes for if a clown decided to buy a ballon.
That doesn't mean he can't whip out a egun and baton, and kill me in all of 2 seconds because i didn't execute his ass.

Traitor gear has nothing to do with traitor status. All traitors are to be killed equally.

[Saegrimr]

When a clown spawns in a ballon, just because he didn't spawn in a esword and ebow, and proceed to kill everyone, doesn't mean he couldn't run to toxins right after you let him go, and release shit loads of plasma. Killing around a equal ammount.

Powergamers powergame because we don't want to get killed by someone who can kill us.

Is dieing really that big of an issue? Wouldn't you rather go up in a huge fireball than waddle your donut-laden sphincter over to a pod once someone gets bored enough to call the shuttle?

[John_Oxford]

When a clown spawns in a ballon, just because he didn't spawn in a esword and ebow, and proceed to kill everyone, doesn't mean he couldn't run to toxins right after you let him go, and release shit loads of plasma. Killing around a equal ammount.

Powergamers powergame because we don't want to get killed by someone who can kill us.

Is dieing really that big of an issue? Wouldn't you rather go up in a huge fireball than waddle your donut-laden sphincter over to a pod once someone gets bored enough to call the shuttle?

Look, if i get killed, i can't do anything, i can't talk to anyone alive, i can't do anything in game. There are other things to do besides take traitors down, but thats not the point. Traitors are the only people on the station that can take you out of the round freely, without consiquence. If i kill the traitor first, the traitor can't kill me.


Being deads not fun, Both the sec officer and traitor want each other dead. Thats where the sportsmanship thing comes in. Its Sec Officer V Traitor, may the best man win.

But some traitors like to bitch and whine to admins because they got dunked, simple as that.

[Saegrimr]

There are other things to do as a sec officer than capture traitors, and traitors are the sole thing on the station that can kill you freely. And you can't do much when your dead.

So you go and toss a cuffed guy out an airlock.
Then what? Go home?

[Falamazeer]

There are other things to do as a sec officer than capture traitors, and traitors are the sole thing on the station that can kill you freely. And you can't do much when your dead.

So you go and toss a cuffed guy out an airlock.
Then what? Go home?

Then wait for a smarter traitor to force a shuttle call.
or mulligan and the same
or wait for admin to push two thousand buttons
or deal with any number of shitlers who remain to cause trouble.

letting traitors go so they can force a shuttle call is a decent idea on the surface, but honestly it's not excuse enough to let em go fuck shit up.

[John_Oxford]

Go to the bar, drink gin, talk to people, go to research, ask what you can do to help, go to the chef, give him carp you killed (Or give him that dead traitor body). Go to cargo, order fancy costumes to fuck around in. Get engineering access and go build a autism fort on north west solars.

Whatever you want to do, like i said, there are other things to do as a sec officer then kill traitors.

Once more, traitors are the only people on the station who can freely take you out of the round without punishment.

Just because its a light-RP server, doesn't mean your not allowed to RP.

[Saegrimr]

Go to the bar, drink gin, talk to people, go to research, ask what you can do to help, go to the chef, give him carp you killed (Or give him that dead traitor body). Go to cargo, order fancy costumes to fuck around in. Get engineering access and go build a autism fort on north west solars.

If that's your thing, by all means. I'm just trying to figure out where the divide is between roleplaying and not-roleplaying with you.
You want to space a traitor so his golem army doesn't interrupt your autism fort, or ultimate sandwich making? That's cool I guess but again the question is then what?

I guess Falamazeer has a point about waiting for mulligan or bored admins to roll the buttons, but its just gonna be the same song and dance of "fuck mulligan happened better hurry and space whatever showed up so I can get back to my fort"

[Tornadium]

Odds are though, if you don't space that fucker what are you going to do stuffed in a dark corner or maint in a locker for the next 30-40 minutes?

[Falamazeer]

that's the job Saegrimr, Are you implying security should deliberately be hollywood sugar glass for the antags to burst through to make things more exciting?

We antag hunt, that's the role we've been given.

[Saegrimr]

Odds are though, if you don't space that fucker what are you going to do stuffed in a dark corner or maint in a locker for the next 30-40 minutes?

If he's violent, remove him. I never said to turn a blind eye to the guy with an ebow strapped to each limb and one sticking out of his pants zipper.
Just the point of making it a habit to remove as much greentext as humanly possible in a short amount of time baffles me.

[whodaloo]

that's the job Saegrimr, Are you implying security should deliberately be hollywood sugar glass for the antags to burst through to make things more exciting?

We antag hunt, that's the role we've been given.

lmao

[Anonmare]

Security's job is to keep the peace, not antaghunt all day erryday. If you catch a traitor stealing something meme-y like the RD's armour, confiscate his gear + everything he stole. Give him a tracker and if you're really anal about things, a chem implant filled with morphine. If he's murdered someone, perma his ass and offer him choices: Execution, Borging or paying off his debt to society via gulag (plus track+chem implant and confiscat his PDA and get HoP to get them a new one).
If you catch and subdue a traitor during a shuttle call, your first instinct should be to subdue the suspect, restrain him and bring him back for questioning at Central Command. If the shuttle is inaccessible for any reason then you take the escape pod with your subdued prisoner. Take off his backpack, headset and empty out his pockets if you're worried about bombs or surprises but the security officer is the one with an advantage in a tight space like on an escape pod. The only time you have the authority to execute is if your superiors can't be contacted for whatever reason, your life is in immediate danger or they simply cannot be restrained - as is the case for Hulks and Wizards.

Plus by killing him, you might be giving him green-text anyway if he has the "Die a Glorious Death" objective in which case it goes against the whole "play2win" thing. Hell the objective was added simply because Officers keep thinking they're Judge, Jury and Executioner without following the Chain of Command.

[ColonicAcid]

What I'm getting from these two is that they're afraid of dying.
That is one of the core aspects of SS13, and you are afraid of it. That is not a healthy attitude to have, you should play ss13 like you play DF. Stop this whole belief that dying is a horrible thing and the bane of humanity. It's not. For every 10 "lmao get stunned and die" deaths there's that one death, the one perfect death which just makes up for it.

Stop this attitude, it's toxic to the community and it's what's causing us to go down the path of utter shit.

[CPTANT]

You are all just butthurt for sec actually upholding space law. Your existence as a traitor IS A CAPITAL CRIME

who the fuck would let people go of who it is IC known that they are trained terrorists with a mission to fuck up the station?

You all just want to commit grand theft and other shit and not be punished for it cause, god forbid, sec actually DOES KEEP THE PEACE.

[whodaloo]

You are all just butthurt for sec actually upholding space law. Your existence as a traitor IS A CAPITAL CRIME

who the fuck would let people go of who it is IC known that they are trained terrorists with a mission to fuck up the station?

You all just want to commit grand theft and other shit and not be punished for it cause, god forbid, sec actually DOES KEEP THE PEACE.

lmao^2

[CPTANT]

You are all just butthurt for sec actually upholding space law. Your existence as a traitor IS A CAPITAL CRIME

who the fuck would let people go of who it is IC known that they are trained terrorists with a mission to fuck up the station?

You all just want to commit grand theft and other shit and not be punished for it cause, god forbid, sec actually DOES KEEP THE PEACE.

lmao^2

Fuck your lmao, git gud and stop whining about getting your ass beaten by security.

[oranges]

I just like to tool around and wave my epeen in everybody's face

[MrStonedOne]

The guy who hasn't even been here for 2 months is telling everybody how they feel.

kek.

[PKPenguin321]

imo the difference between playing2win and doing things that make sense ICly depend on two things: your position, and the acts of the antagonist at hand


sec murdering an antag for having sneaky gear > okay, you didn't have to but it's valid i guess
sec murdering an antag for mass shootings > okay, he deserved it
sec murdering an antag clown who hasn't left the theater because he has a syndicate balloon, then taking his balloon > why you doin' that

random scientist murdering an antag for having sneaky gear > that aint cool, turn them in to security or try to detain them next time if you can
random scientist murdering an antag for mass shootings > okay, also you're a hero for doing what sec couldnt
random scientist murdering an antag clown who hasn't left the theater because he has a syndicate balloon, then taking his balloon > you should probably get banned

[Mister_Doc]

I don't think this thread is going to accomplish anything. People will keep playing sec their way and if it happens to be a meta/powergamey way then eventually they'll cross a line and get bwoinked. Or it'll just spawn another Ban request that generates pages of salt and some bitchy post on Singulo.io

[Miauw]

Because stealing a pair of magboots and idling in arrivals O2 locker isn't fun. You'll get your greentext though!
Because executing someone for having a pair of secret documents on them isn't fun, when you could just confiscate them, put a tracking implant in them, and tell them to fuck off. They'll run off and blow up a huge chunk of the station, flood plasma, god fucking knows what. But whatever they end up doing afterwards is more interesting then sitting in the warden's office until the CMO gets bored and calls the shuttle. Plus now you have someone to chase down in the chaos and personally beat the shit out of for going against your good will to cause more trouble!

this, pretty much.

and if you HAVE to kill them, at least make it a public execution or something so the AI can try to stop you.

[peoplearestrange]

Given this whole situation, for a while IIRC there wasn't a shuttle brig, and even when there was (at first) it didn't effect the possibility of greentext.

Greentext or denying greentext is such a pety thing, its like 4 meaningless words, its what happens IN the round, its about what ridiculous situations you get into and maybe even how you end up dieing in all the madness.

I think people need to deal with the fact that this shouldn't be a game you can "win". Of course the greentext is used to usher along traitors and kinda give them a sense of purpose, but ultimately its up to them what they do with their status. Hence why we give antags a relatively free reign. The emergent gameplay and silly situations are what make this game and in honesty, I think we've started to forget that and slide away from it as a whole.

[Ricotez]

There is a reason why there have never been any "station objectives" beyond rounds that force a showdown between the crew and the antags like nuke, wizard and blob. In this game you pretend to be an employee of a megacorporation in the distant future, working aboard a dangerous research space station. Your "objectives" are the same it would be if this were a real life situation: do your job, have fun doing it, stay alive. Make your own fun without relying on the game to tell you when you win. I know we have a round type called sandbox, but the entire game is a sandbox game, really.

[Incomptinence]

If it is widely supported opinion among admins and players that you need to let the baloon man go isn't their intent in spawning the balloon to banbait?

I mean I ignore them myself but if pro balloon policy is enforced it is basically institutionalized banbaiting.

[Takeguru]

Murdering someone just because they have a syndie balloon is reaching pretty hard, to be honest.

It's not like it's a lethal tool like an ebow or something, and they honestly could have just picked it up.

At most, detain and search them for other stuff, but just jumping straight to "Balloon! Must be traitor!" is pretty shit

[AdenAbrafo]

Murdering someone just because they have a syndie balloon is reaching pretty hard, to be honest.

It's not like it's a lethal tool like an ebow or something, and they honestly could have just picked it up.

At most, detain and search them for other stuff, but just jumping straight to "Balloon! Must be traitor!" is pretty shit

Jobban people who do shit like this often. Why be so strict with rules if you can just get stop, and get rid of if you have to, the people who ruin it for everyone else?