So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by firecage » #198606

Bottom post of the previous page:

Cheimon wrote:Well, like any close poll, there are still a bunch of people who think what they voted for was right. Pro-secborg people shouldn't suddenly expect anti-secborg people to go "I see, I was wrong, let's have secborgs now" especially when anti-secborg people weren't very keen on poll results when their polls didn't give them satisfaction.
Cheimon, naturally I wouldn't expect them to agree with the polls results, but I would expect them to just suck it up and accept it, instead of trying to either blame the poll, or try to make excuses that the people who voted didn't know what they were doing. And I know, in every single case, both sides do the same thing. if the poll had ended up on the opposite side, people on the pro-secborg side would have used the same excuses, and it would be equally as retarded.

Screewmonster, And yah, in elections/polls/referendums, the losing side always gets extremely butthurt and tries to prevent whatever said election/poll/referendum went out to do, or just impede its progress, which is pathetic when people do it IRL in a supposed democratic country. Only democracy when it suits you.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198607

Secborgs are fucking gone. Get over it.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198608

It wasn't a close poll, as I've said gain and again 2/3 of the people who did care want them back, only 1/3 is opposed to it and near as many people don't even care.

Why do we even have player polls if the result is just ignored when it's not to the taste of certain people? And I'm sure they wouldn't be like this if the poll went the other way.

And apperantly secborgs have been testmerged with a silly transformation function so that Peacekeeper turn into Secborgs but only when certain conditions are met, so even though the pro-secborg people won by a good majority there's apperantly still the need to nerf and compromise, which is pretty stupid in and on by itself.

I rather have them be whitelisted as the only position in the entire game or not have them back at all if we're going that route.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Davidchan » #198609

PKPenguin321 wrote:Borgs are not fun to play against
Antags are not fun to play against, you need guns and stun prods to fight and most jobs don't start with access that. REMOVE /s
Law 0: Secborg din do nuffin.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198610

dionysus24779 wrote:It wasn't a close poll, as I've said gain and again 2/3 of the people who did care want them back, only 1/3 is opposed to it and near as many people don't even care.

Why do we even have player polls if the result is just ignored when it's not to the taste of certain people? And I'm sure they wouldn't be like this if the poll went the other way.

And apperantly secborgs have been testmerged with a silly transformation function so that Peacekeeper turn into Secborgs but only when certain conditions are met, so even though the pro-secborg people won by a good majority there's apperantly still the need to nerf and compromise, which is pretty stupid in and on by itself.

I rather have them be whitelisted as the only position in the entire game or not have them back at all if we're going that route.
What is it about secborg that you can't get out of playing security officer?
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by InsaneHyena » #198612

paprika wrote:
dionysus24779 wrote:It wasn't a close poll, as I've said gain and again 2/3 of the people who did care want them back, only 1/3 is opposed to it and near as many people don't even care.

Why do we even have player polls if the result is just ignored when it's not to the taste of certain people? And I'm sure they wouldn't be like this if the poll went the other way.

And apperantly secborgs have been testmerged with a silly transformation function so that Peacekeeper turn into Secborgs but only when certain conditions are met, so even though the pro-secborg people won by a good majority there's apperantly still the need to nerf and compromise, which is pretty stupid in and on by itself.

I rather have them be whitelisted as the only position in the entire game or not have them back at all if we're going that route.
What is it about secborg that you can't get out of playing security officer?
Everything. Secborgs are much more powerful than security officer, it's easier for them to get valids, and they can be antags. That's what pro-secborg crowd wants.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198613

InsaneHyena wrote:
paprika wrote:
dionysus24779 wrote:It wasn't a close poll, as I've said gain and again 2/3 of the people who did care want them back, only 1/3 is opposed to it and near as many people don't even care.

Why do we even have player polls if the result is just ignored when it's not to the taste of certain people? And I'm sure they wouldn't be like this if the poll went the other way.

And apperantly secborgs have been testmerged with a silly transformation function so that Peacekeeper turn into Secborgs but only when certain conditions are met, so even though the pro-secborg people won by a good majority there's apperantly still the need to nerf and compromise, which is pretty stupid in and on by itself.

I rather have them be whitelisted as the only position in the entire game or not have them back at all if we're going that route.
What is it about secborg that you can't get out of playing security officer?
Everything. Secborgs are much more powerful than security officer, it's easier for them to get valids, and they can be antags. That's what pro-secborg crowd wants.
Oh, I see! Thank you for clearing that up! I understand now that these cuckolds are still upset as fuck for no reason and there's no reason to readd secborgs!
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198624

paprika wrote:What is it about secborg that you can't get out of playing security officer?
That's actually a valid question for once.

To me it isn't exactly about playing a secborg or sec officer, but about playing a borg role, which I just enjoy so much more than any human role. There certainly is an overlap in what both roles offer, but secborgs are no real repalcement for sec officers and there are unqiue diffrences.

As a borg you are very limited and specialized to do one job well and nothing else, which adds interesting restrictions to what you can and cannot do, in return you may have allies that can cover what you cannot do which creates more interesting dynamics than being a human who can do everything by him/herself. Just as sec has the Captain and HoS the borgs have the AI to guide them, which is a great help when you have a competent communicative AI and communication and coordination are key to playing silicons anyway because there is so much reliance on each other.

Then there're the laws which are a unique and fun gameplay element that no other role really has. They allow you to be much more lenient and have interesting interactions. Now I know that some players will stuncuff and brig you for cracking a glas or seeing you holding a weapon without even checking if it's a toy... and that is a player problem... but otherwise you won't have to do anything, besides direct orders, as long as there's no harm involved. If you witness someone stealing something you can just roll along happily, if you see someone break into a place you might just open the door for them, if someone asks you to bring them an item you can't say "Fuck off" you just do it. It's also really nice to have stationwide access so you can be wherever you need to be to do your job.

And getting unique original and fun laws can be a ton of fun too. Granted many people aren't every original and many custom laws do kind of suck... but every once in a while you still get really fun stuff. Sometimes even the random ionic laws you get from ion storms can be funny as well.

You also have Roboticists taking care of you, you have a unqiue resource in form of your energy, you can get neat upgrades when others do their jobs... etc.

It's also interesting to engage in combat as a borg because oftentimes you have to be tactical about it, simply because you have these restrictions. Though a secborg of course has a much easier time here against humans because... well that's its job. But a secborg is often more inefficient against other types of hostiles than an engie or even mediborg! It's all about specialisation. Combat is also interesting because, unlike what others believe, you are pretty fragile...

And this isn't just about being a secborg, the same applies to every other module, especially engineering. If you would ask me what I get out of playing an engieborg over an engineer it would pretty much be the same answer and yet engieborgs would still not be a replacement for actual Engineers.

And I know that some people will bring up how silicons can be subverted or emagged... yeah true, but it doesn't happen as often as you might think (but I guess people only remember the times it does happen because confirmation bias) and these days it's probably easier and more likely to become an antag by staying human (2x cult, gang, rev, shadowling, etc.) or being dead (ashwalker, Xenobio, nuke ops, blobbernaut, ninja, wizard apprentice, holosprite, EMTs, cult, etc. etc. etc.) than being a borg.

Being a borg is fun, it offers unqiue experiences and it's my most favourite job and I've played them all. And this is despite borgs getting five nerfs for every buff.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198628

I played a lot of secborg. I know they're fun. I would usually suicide if I didn't get assistant and get borged to play secborg instead.

Nobody is arguing that secborg wasn't fun.

Secborg was removed because it ruins the experience for everyone ELSE. Secborg does not actively contribute to a better game in any way except for it being a fun role for the borgs themselves.

Hopefully you can understand why people don't want it back. Beyond all the name-calling I personally understand why silicon players are attracted to secborg and want it to return. But silicons are a minority role on the station and secborgs gave them a much larger presence than they should have. Secborgs in every conflict, secborgs every time someone is arrested, secborgs guarding prisoners, secborgs when aliens show up, etc etc. Secborgs are attached to an omnipotent eye that is more likely to direct their LAW-BOUND BORGS to an event than security officers because every good AI player knows that secborgs are a huge force multiplier versus antags and can almost always get the job done if you throw enough of them at an antag.

READ THIS.
Yes they have counters. Yes they are easily killable if you have a flash. Stating common knowledge does not change the argument. This game has been revolving around fair fights and a robust combat system since it was created. An antag with an esword can get killed by an UNARMED ASSISTANT because that's how this game is. You can't do that with borgs, you NEED one of their counters to kill them, turning the game into a heaping pile of shit and combat boiling down to 'if you have the thing'. An antag can dick an officer over with the disarm intent easily. An antag trying to go up against a borg unarmed is mince meat. It's shit and it always will be shit.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198637

I absolutely cannot relate to any of that, I never had a problem or had my experience ruined by a Secborg when I wasn't a borg myself.

But I guess fuck player polls anyway. It's not like it even mattered. You're already getting what you want by tying Secborgs to some silly and asinine transformation mechanic.

Even when a 2/3 majority want them back there has to be a compromise or restriction or nerf. It's kind of mind boggling to me, but I guess that's just how it is.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198639

Because a poll of 'yes they should come back' or 'no they shouldn't come back' does not fully detail how people think

What if people are not ok with how secborgs are, but they want them back after they've been nerfed more? Ever consider that?

This is why player polls are fucking dogshit.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by MMMiracles » #198640

Blame the group of people who insisted that they were 'THE LAWWWW' and ruined the module for everyone else who actually tried playing to their lawset instead of spacelaw.

Also they were complete ass to deal with as any semi-competent AI would have the fuckers on your position the moment you even sneezed harmfully.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198641

I give up, do what you want.

MMMIracles is half-right though, it's ad that some players can ruin it for everyone, we had the same stuff happen before as well, like when telescience was initially removed because players would start meta-ing it and stealing stuff.

However I disagree that "any semi-competent AI" having Secborgs in position is a problem, that's like punishing them for coordinating and communicating and it's not like the AI isn't relaying information to sec if it's really semi-competent.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Wyzack » #198643

Wait let me get this straight. They are back in a limited capacity and even then Kor says they are still being shit. And a bunch of people are saying that it is just because they have been gone too long? I am curious what it would take to convince the pro secborg group that they are a negative influence on the game if actual IC proof presented by a neutral party who is also the design lead is not good enough
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Reece » #198647

As someone who plays borgs I'd say borgs are both too weak and too strong. They are hard to beat but when they are beat then GG because you're fucked when playing as them, but at the same time without a counter you go down hard when trying to fight one.

It might be better to have cyborgs get 'micro-EMP' by taser shots, so they lock down for the same time as a taser shot for a human.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #198660

Reece wrote:
It might be better to have cyborgs get 'micro-EMP' by taser shots, so they lock down for the same time as a taser shot for a human.
Ugh, I hate how I sound saying this, but this is a good idea. Right now, the only ranged stuns that work against borgs are flashbangs (eew) and the ion rifle (which is missing because greytide broke in and stole it).
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by onleavedontatme » #198668

The people who have tasers already have flashes and flashbangs though (and are in the same department as the guy with the flashers, ion rifle, lasers, etc).
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Cheimon » #198692

Alright, this is a bit left field and more suitable for the ideas subforum, but here goes.

What about a *short* stun for borgs if you splash them with *enough* water?

Water is easily accessible, as are water containers, water is bad for electronics in real life, and cyborgs don't need to be waterproof to do their job. It also has this neat emergent effect where if you miss the cyborg, you make the floor slippery (for you, but not your enemy). It would even work as a ranged stun if you threw something full of water at a cyborg. It shouldn't be impossibly novel (r-right?) to code either, given precedent for other liquid splash effects on people.

It'd probably have to be balanced to be more useful for escape than killing (unless you had a really good weapon or a big crowd) but it would give everyone that didn't spend points for specialist tools a way to easily fight back.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Scott » #198718

Cyborgs are supposed to be very efficient at their designated role, while being restricted by laws. The security cyborg had no inherent problems, it was a combat oriented cyborg memed into legend as being an unstunnable death machine but convieniently leaving out all the easy anti cyborg tools.

But we can't have this because of players who should have been educated by admins but weren't.

And also security players. Security players are very adamant about not letting anyone who might be on the other team (read everyone who isn't roundstart security) into their safespace brig.

Stop wasting your breath, the anti silicon are in charge.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Anonmare » #198719

  • My ideas to balance secborgs:-
  • Replace their stunbaton with a telebaton
  • Replace their cyborg disabler and laser with swarmer-style disablers - a moderate cooldown between each shot
  • Remove any melee damage from the disablers and lasers so they can't be used to pistol whip while tele-batonning someone
  • General borg balances:-
  • Stunbatons and stun prods will de-equip the currently activated module (if available), discharge 10% of it's power cell's energy, confuse and blind and mute for approximately 5 seconds - but not stun or paralyze.
  • Sufficient damage or an empty power cell will automatically unlock the borg's cover (fluff it as the emergency repair systems activating for easier access), dragging the borg's sprite onto yours will let you forcibly pry open an unlocked cover with your bare fingertips if you lack a crowbar.
  • Borgs can slip on lube but won't be stunned by it.
  • Disabler shots drain 5% power per hit while tasers will drain 10% and cause a confusion effect.
  • Throwing food at a borg will blind it and it will need to examine itself to remove the blockage (similar as to how you would remove an embeded object).
  • Liquids will cause partial blindness (the white overlay thing).
  • People in borg or plant-pot disguises don't appear on it's medical or security sensors (diagnostics will show a status that would defeat the disguise however), and borg disguises will make silicons see a generic cyborg name, I.E. Standard Cyborg-123 instead of their ID.
  • People not in the crew manifest will always register as Unknown to them, regardless of their ID, face or name when speaking. They just don't recognise them. Actually, make it work off their ID and borgs will see and hear a person as whatever their ID says. Sure last you checked Sandra Kelly was a middle-aged woman with brown hair and not a black man with pink hair and a green goatee but their ID says their Sandra so they must be. No ID makes them see and hear them as unknown.
Last edited by Anonmare on Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Scott » #198722

Anonmare wrote:
  • My ideas to balance secborgs:-
  • Replace their stunbaton with a telebaton
  • Replace their cyborg disabler and laser with swarmer-style disablers - a moderate cooldown between each shot
  • Remove any melee damage from the disablers and lasers so they can't be used to pistol whip while tele-batonning someone
  • General borg balances:-
  • Stunbatons and stun prods will de-equip the currently activated module (if available), discharge 10% of it's power cell's energy, confuse and blind and mute for approximately 5 seconds - but not stun or paralyze.
  • Sufficient damage or an empty power cell will automatically unlock the borg's cover (fluff it as the emergency repair systems activating for easier access), dragging the borg's sprite onto yours will let you forcibly pry open an unlocked cover with your bare fingertips if you lack a crowbar.
  • Borgs can slip on lube but won't be stunned by it.
  • Disabler shots drain 5% power per hit while tasers will drain 10% and cause a confusion effect.
  • Throwing food at a borg will blind it and it will need to examine itself toremove the blockage (similar as to how you would remove an embeded object).
  • Liquids will cause partial blindness (the white overlay thing).
  • People in borg or plant-pot disguises don't appear on it's medical or security sensors (diagnostics will show a status that would defeat the disguise however), and borg disguises will make silicons see a generic cyborg name, I.E. Standard Cyborg-123 instead of their ID.
  • People not in the crew manifest will always register as Unknown to them, regardless of their ID, face or name when speaking. They just don't recognise them.
Or keep the PK borgs, they're already bad at being security.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by A3STH3T1CS » #198745

PK borgs aren't fun.
They're just loud service borgs
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by InsaneHyena » #198762

> security cyborgs are restricted by their laws may-may

No. Shut up. I've played the very same rounds as you did, and I've seen this way too many times. Captain walks into the upload, uploads robocop/valadin, secborgs immediately become bloodthirsty murder machines hunting for antags and ruthlessly slaughtering them. It happened again and again, and it will happen once more if secborgs come back. It's time to stop.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198766

Return humanoid cyborgs who can pick up shit but have internal arm module storage that they can't drop instead of 3 hands and also make them stunnable and susceptible to the same shit that humans are (besides atmos) so they can be disarm spammed or stunned like normal

Remove these shitty ridiculous cyborg designs that look nothing like fucking cyborgs should look (ie, modified humans and not robots)

Then the AI can have all the powerwank it wants while cyborgs are just slaved human husks

They'd be humans that run on batteries instead of food/oxygen LIKE THEY SHOULD BE instead of glorified robots

But I know the autisitc silicon crowd will go B-BUT MUH CUTE ROBOT BORGIES instead of caring about gameplay
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #198772

paprika wrote:cherry-picked slice of combat
>You HAVE to have a counter meme
>Fails to mention 99% of the time where the unarmed assistant tries to fight sec/traitor they get fucked hard

Step one: Equip floor tiles
Step two: Throw tiles at borg
Step three: Kite as hard as you can
Step four: Either get killed by said borg or kill the borg

You'll probably get dunked, but you'll also probably get dunked if you're trying to fight literally anyone equipped with traitor/sec gear because why the fuck wouldn't you.

Literally get good and accept that sometimes you get dunked
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by InsaneHyena » #198775

Sec is easily dunked with just as much as stun prod or soap, both extremely commonly found and easily made. But I understand that since you're a silicon player, no amount of reason or logic can persuade you.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Screemonster » #198776

paprika wrote:Return humanoid cyborgs who can pick up shit but have internal arm module storage that they can't drop instead of 3 hands and also make them stunnable and susceptible to the same shit that humans are (besides atmos) so they can be disarm spammed or stunned like normal

Remove these shitty ridiculous cyborg designs that look nothing like fucking cyborgs should look (ie, modified humans and not robots)

Then the AI can have all the powerwank it wants while cyborgs are just slaved human husks

They'd be humans that run on batteries instead of food/oxygen LIKE THEY SHOULD BE instead of glorified robots

But I know the autisitc silicon crowd will go B-BUT MUH CUTE ROBOT BORGIES instead of caring about gameplay
so basically halfway between current borgs and the full-body-prosthetic things that polaris has?
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #198777

Davidchan wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Borgs are not fun to play against
Antags are not fun to play against, you need guns and stun prods to fight and most jobs don't start with access that. REMOVE /s
except that that literally is not true
antags can have gimmicks where they rig bombs and hold fake hostages, they have weaknesses like you so fights are intense on both sides, they have an intense amount of possible variety with so many things in their uplink and so many things they could sabotage on the station

borgs are just "do you have a flash y/n"

nice strawman though
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by A3STH3T1CS » #198781

PKPenguin321 wrote:borgs are just "do you have a flash y/n"

nice strawman though
who can hit who first, flash or stunprod

works either way and something tells me you're projecting your opinion unto the entire community.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #198788

yes it can come down to that and often does, but it also often does not come down to that. think of shit like assistants disarming the HoS for his gun (cant disarm borgs), people straight up chasing down others with axes or swords (pretty much doesn't work with borgs, no slowdown from damage), fist fights in the bar, throwing spears -> catching spears -> throwing spears back -> spears embedding, etc

pretty much anything can happen with humans, even "do you have stun y/n", but with borgs it is ONLY "do you have stun y/n"
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Wyzack » #198792

Wyzack wrote:Wait let me get this straight. They are back in a limited capacity and even then Kor says they are still being shit. And a bunch of people are saying that it is just because they have been gone too long? I am curious what it would take to convince the pro secborg group that they are a negative influence on the game if actual IC proof presented by a neutral party who is also the design lead is not good enough
Pls someone answer my question
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #198797

>Secborgs are gone for a year
>People forget how to fight them
>Secborgs come back and start decimating
>People start screeching that it's evidence that secborgs are OP

no
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198801

I don't think they've been gone for that long.

Anyway, I just have one more thing to add... if we keep this silly transformation mechanic then I would like to see the required security level lowered.

Code Green - "All Clear" = Have Peacekeepers to keep the peace, just as Security shouldn't brandish weapons or do random searches.

Code Blue - "Confirmed Threat" - Have Security borgs who work to restore the peace.

I would honestly be fine with that and even like it, when the station is peaceful and there's no need for Security borgs then they can be Peacekeepers instead.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198803

ShadowDimentio wrote:
paprika wrote:cherry-picked slice of combat
>You HAVE to have a counter meme
>Fails to mention 99% of the time where the unarmed assistant tries to fight sec/traitor they get fucked hard

Step one: Equip floor tiles
Step two: Throw tiles at borg
Step three: Kite as hard as you can
Step four: Either get killed by said borg or kill the borg

You'll probably get dunked, but you'll also probably get dunked if you're trying to fight literally anyone equipped with traitor/sec gear because why the fuck wouldn't you.

Literally get good and accept that sometimes you get dunked
I don't even play that much and last time I hopped on I disarmed a dual esword weilding traitor and sliced his head off, you can't be seriously this unrobust to think that my example is 'cherrypicked', unarmed people beat armed humans all the fucking time in this game. The reason sec is the only real circumstance where unarmed humans are massively skewed against the armed officer (taser) is because it's LITERALLY SEC'S JOB TO HAVE AN UPPER HAND IF THEY SHOOT FIRST. The point of antags is to be stealth because SEC DOES NOT KNOW YOU ARE A TRAITOR UNTIL YOU REVEAL YOURSELF, GIVING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO STRIKE FIRST. This is why antags are 'hard to play', this is why sec has 'OP gear', this is why nuke ops have swarms of AI killbees immune to fucking tasers and mechs and cheap adrenaline implants.

CYBORGS HAVE NO COUNTERS LIKE THIS. THERE IS NO SITUATION, NONE, IN WHICH A HUMAN, ONE ON ONE, WILL BEAT A CYBORG IF THEY'RE BOTH 100%.

Please, shadowdimentio, try learning about how game balance works. At the very least your arguments won't be as pathetic as your headmin campaign, where I fucking crushed you & your pathetic arguments in obvious vote lead.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by dionysus24779 » #198809

Make Peacekeepers transform at Code Blue and this could actually work... because that's the point at which they are needed.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198811

That's also the default code which means it's basically code green
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #198823

paprika wrote:CYBORGS HAVE NO COUNTERS LIKE THIS. THERE IS NO SITUATION, NONE, IN WHICH A HUMAN, ONE ON ONE, WILL BEAT A CYBORG IF THEY'RE BOTH 100%.

Please, shadowdimentio, try learning about how game balance works. At the very least your arguments won't be as pathetic as your headmin campaign, where I fucking crushed you & your pathetic arguments in obvious vote lead.
Woah golly gee dudes Paprika is mad he's got the ruler out measuring his e-peen I better back off man

>No situation where a human VS cyborg will win if they're both at 100%

Unless the human has one of about a dozen items that utterly destroy cyborgs, including just pushing their inbuilt /kill button.

Also I once fended off two syndie medborgs virtually alone and naked in the Thunderdome with nothing but a stack of floor tiles. So get good.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #198825

ShadowDimentio wrote:including just pushing their inbuilt /kill button.
i don't know how you're able to acknowledge this in a negative light yet still claim that cyborg "combat" is good
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by Davidchan » #198840

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Davidchan wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Borgs are not fun to play against
Antags are not fun to play against, you need guns and stun prods to fight and most jobs don't start with access that. REMOVE /s
except that that literally is not true
antags can have gimmicks where they rig bombs and hold fake hostages, they have weaknesses like you so fights are intense on both sides, they have an intense amount of possible variety with so many things in their uplink and so many things they could sabotage on the station

borgs are just "do you have a flash y/n"

nice strawman though
I don't think you understand what that term means.


Traitors are only 'fun' to deal with because there is a chance you can steal their shit. They only have so many options to go through because the majority of PRs and features added to the game are for antags, and the majority of the antag updates go to traitors because they are the most common. If you feel that borgs have stagnated or have no variation in play and counterplay, take it up with the coders.

Changlings, Slings, Wizards and Nukes are all about as common if not more common than malf, which is about the only time you'll be fighting emag/antag borgs. And I can tell you from expierence, the general crew has a MUCH easier time taking on a handful of borgs than they do any of the other antags who often have one shot LOL attacks that incap or instakill you, borgs need to work in teams to have any chance of preventing a victim from screaming out.

Borgs have weaknesses too, and none of them have any capable ranged combat outside of the syndiborg and secborg, and even those can be dealt with by using cover and dragging around objects. Don't have a flash? Metal rods, floor tiles, tools, anything you can throw can do damage, and if you're even slightly robust you can deal with a secborg more effectively than you can deal with a sec officer trying to taze you.

"BUT THEY WIN 1v1!!!"

Speak of the strawman. Sec Borgs are designed around shutting down shitters. That said their modules eat power like no ones business and just going 2v1 and shaking each other up anytime the borg tries to incap one of you and he's toast. Sec borgs vs groups are going to get wrecked, which is why revs have such a high rate of success when sec borgs make up most of sec.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198844

ShadowDimentio wrote:
paprika wrote:CYBORGS HAVE NO COUNTERS LIKE THIS. THERE IS NO SITUATION, NONE, IN WHICH A HUMAN, ONE ON ONE, WILL BEAT A CYBORG IF THEY'RE BOTH 100%.

Please, shadowdimentio, try learning about how game balance works. At the very least your arguments won't be as pathetic as your headmin campaign, where I fucking crushed you & your pathetic arguments in obvious vote lead.
Woah golly gee dudes Paprika is mad he's got the ruler out measuring his e-peen I better back off man

>No situation where a human VS cyborg will win if they're both at 100%

Unless the human has one of about a dozen items that utterly destroy cyborgs, including just pushing their inbuilt /kill button.

Also I once fended off two syndie medborgs virtually alone and naked in the Thunderdome with nothing but a stack of floor tiles. So get good.
Shadowdimentio once again does not understand what the word 'unarmed' means.

Oh, you kited some borgs in the thunderdome? A big open area, of which there are only a couple on the station, which is more likely full of cramped areas the borgs can corner and stunbaton you in? How will your fucking floortiles help against that, you tard?

It takes a special kind of retarded to compare a fight against some medborgs, who's players could have been fucking stupid and not known how to play, in a large area, to a typical engagement of an underequipped human versus a secborg.

But hey, this is Shadow "TWO FUCKING VOTES" Dimentio we're talking about here. Sad!
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #198849

paprika wrote:CYBORGS HAVE NO COUNTERS LIKE THIS. THERE IS NO SITUATION, NONE, IN WHICH A HUMAN, ONE ON ONE, WILL BEAT A CYBORG IF THEY'RE BOTH 100%.
ctl + f search: unarmed

0 results

I don't know what you think 100% means but 100% to me and most everyone else means "fully prepared".

But if you want me to talk about fighting a borg *completely* unarmed, what kind of balance retarded hugbaby thinks that things should be balanced around being able to beat someone with absolutely ***ZERO*** gear? If you get caught by ANY antag geared up properly you're supposed to run and chelp to the crew or, if they corner you, jump on their esword and die. Why should borgs be the exception, because you don't like them? Nah.

Also keep stroking your e-peen, it makes you look very cool
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198854

ShadowDimentio wrote: But if you want me to talk about fighting a borg *completely* unarmed, what kind of balance retarded hugbaby thinks that things should be balanced around being able to beat someone with absolutely ***ZERO*** gear? If you get caught by ANY antag geared up properly you're supposed to run and chelp to the crew or, if they corner you, jump on their esword and die. Why should borgs be the exception, because you don't like them? Nah.

Also keep stroking your e-peen, it makes you look very cool
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100% means full battery and full health

The game isn't balanced around being able to beat everyone 1v1 with zero gear

It's balanced around the possibilty, the possibility for anyone to one up anyone with enough robust skill, that's how the game has always been, that's what's spawned greentext stories, and why this game is fucking awesome

If we're discussing hugbabies, maybe look in a fucking mirror mr 'borgs should mean you win versus an unarmed human haha xD' fuck yourself for defending this crutch shitter unrobust mentality

Being an antag should be hard

Being a borg should not give you free pass to shit on anyone who doesn't have one of your counters or 'floor tiles in a thunderdome arena' LMFAO good fucking riddance secborgs
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #198857

Oh I see, sorry m'dude, I didn't realize we were talking about the newest most intense combat game SS13, where one slip up and you're actually fucking dead IRL

Sorry for disrespecting the finely balanced combat system by implying that playing borg antag doesn't need to have a way for skilled videogamers such as yourself to dunk them without any gear whatsoever

I now understand your vendetta against stuns dunking you, you just don't want to get dunked ever and want to just effortlessly eat antags for breakfast (not implying you don't already, m'dude)

So sorry
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Lol"
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198863

ShadowDimentio wrote:I now understand your vendetta against stuns dunking you, you just don't want to get dunked ever and want to just effortlessly eat antags for breakfast (not implying you don't already, m'dude)

So sorry
This idea that a 'hardcore' game means sometimes people just win automatically with better equipment is fucking retarded. A hardcore game means you're NEVER FUCKING SAFE. Secborgs should NEVER BE SAFE if a human is unarmed or doesn't have their counter stun items, just like no antag is ever truly safe (arguably wizard with the right combo of spells but that's a known exception and intentionally broken as fuck). Secborg/borgs in general aren't even the only thing on this list of shit that is not counterable by unarmed humans. I'm not saying you should be able to tablestun nar'sie. I'm saying that if a sec officer comes at you with a baton or a taser, it's completely different than a secborg coming at you with a baton or a taser, and on top of this the secborg can brave a ton of damage, can't be stunned by the same things as humans (exception flashbang) and can bolt/shock doors.

If you can't wrap your head around this concept of what makes ss13's combat a deep and interesting experience which leads to a variety of fun clutch situations, you should not be arguing about secborg's place in this game and how it's balanced. This game is built on the experience that you almost always have a choice to make in combat and nobody (except some meme exceptions like death squads and wizards) are going to be automatic wins against you.

Edit: Hell, jesus christ, you can disarm death squad pulse rifles easy as fuck a lot of the time if they're retards and don't know how to keep their distance and fire pulse at you.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by TheNightingale » #198869

Okay, but you shouldn't be able to spam disarm and stand a good chance of winning fights either. Yes, you can disarm deathsquad pulse rifles easily. That's not a good thing.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #198874

i disagree, it makes the game unique

one of the first stories you'll hear when you're first told of SS13 is how the clown slipped/disarmed the nuke ops. a /clown/ disarming armed-to-the-teeth death operatives. let that sink in.
what other game lets that happen?
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by A3STH3T1CS » #198877

PKPenguin321 wrote:i disagree, it makes the game unique

one of the first stories you'll hear when you're first told of SS13 is how the clown slipped/disarmed the nuke ops. a /clown/ disarming armed-to-the-teeth death operatives. let that sink in.
what other game lets that happen?
and what other game let's the entire station be saved by a secborg more than half of the time next to people who go around disarming the captain "for fun"
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #198880

yeah you're right this game sucks let's just turn it into another perfectly balanced cover shooter
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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paprika
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198883

TheNightingale wrote:Yes, you can disarm deathsquad pulse rifles easily. That's not a good thing.
Don't get disarmed.

Alternatively, git gud.

If you need crutches to defy the base game mechanics that make this game fun and have made it fun for ages you are actively encouraging a playstyle of minmax shittery which is why secborg has attracted bad types of people that have sullied the role. Because it's easy and it's a crutch to get arrests/deny greentext/ruin people's rounds which is satisfying for a number of unrobust shitters who can't do it as a sec officer.

I understand there's roleplay and actual gameplay nuances to playing borg that makes it more interesting/fun for people. I get that working with a squad of law slaved metal death machines is cool. But you have to understand that secborg used to shit on everything in many situations. One of the most common situations is borg vs a crewmember who didn't have a flash or any other hard stun counter. Part of the reason this situation came up so often was because secborgs are a PRIME target for antag subverting. It's cheap, and you usually get the most bang for your buck when you take over the AI because the secborgs are such a force multiplier. Imagine if you could subvert security officers... it'd be so fucking easy to dunk them in comparison to old secborgs.

You all need to start thinking about the gameplay ramifications of your personal fun in the secborg role. It fosters a better game for everyone. You can't claim that you're being 'oppressed' if the oppressors are just normal players who feel that secborg strength is unfair. If you throw out accusations that 'they just want an ez game as traitor', or 'they can't git gud and take down subverted secborgs', then your arguments are based on some weak fallacies that you should consider correcting. Gameplay fairness, even if it boils down to fucking stupid byond rng disarm spam, has always been a thing in this game, it has predated secborgs, and it will certainly outlast them. Disarm has been a thing forever despite being stupid as fuck and causing a lot of stupid shit is because nothing currently does it better or nobody has coded a replacement. It's a necessary part of the game and despite a lot of people hating it, without it the game would be a sterile shit boring mess. A common presence like secborgs shouldn't be comparable to a fully armed wizard/deathsquad coming at you with huge damaging weapons. Those are the exceptions in this game, thrown in to shake things up, to go 'oh shit maybe I can't try to robust this guy'. Having a dedicated, consistent role for that is so fucking bad because it's a powerful position in the core ss13 gameplay loop that throws a wrench into everything, and NOT in a good or fun way when the roboticist can crank them out and *unzip emag to create a shitter army of stunbots that dick his enemies over. People salivated at the chance to play an emagged secborg because they knew it was one of the most broken things in the game, coming out of nowhere to tase you because their weapons aren't visible in-hand. You had to be cautious ALWAYS when a secborg was around, because there's no telling if it's a malf round or it's an emagged borg or it just wants to fuck your day up because it thinks you're a traitor.

Have I painted you a picture in your mind yet? Can you finally understand why this isn't good for the game or will you keep spouting 'muh fun who cares about hurr balance' and burying your fucking head in the ground?
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by paprika » #198934

oh shit i killed this thread lmao
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
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Re: So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

Post by DemonFiren » #198935

paprika wrote:oh shit i killed this thread lmao
>not even a month passed
>dead
???
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