wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

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iamgoofball
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wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:17 am #205707

so i've been binge playing la noire and playing detective, and i've found that rounds where we have more than one detective, we can actually get stuff done without security just going full gestapo and ignoring me completely

so, instead of there being only 1 lone wolf detective, there are now 4 detectives who all work together while specializing in their field, and they start in a detective office room for the detectives to meet up and share case notes

the four desks: SS13 Noire edition
Code: Select all
arson:
   residue detection
   was that boom boom an IED, black powder, corn grenade, or an assistant with a bag of chips plus a sink?
   potentially scan fragments of the explosive device too for prints
burglary:
   detect what area an item was in originally
   paint bombs, attach it to an item, when it's picked up next by someone that isn't you, it colors everything in the area and sets off a security alarm with location
homicide:
   scanning corpses reveals damaged areas, what type of damage it was, and with what weapon
   "he got stabbed in the chest 3 times with a kitchen knife then beaten to death the rest of the way with a rolling pin"
   this also reveals the cause of death, aka "what damage type ticked him over the crit threshold"
   need a second item idea for him here
vice: // might be overbloating this guy a little, idk
   scan a person/corpse to see what reagents are currently in them/they had in them before they died, along with how they entered the body
   camera bugs for spying on shit
   wires, use them on people and you can listen in on their conversations and what they hear



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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby ShadowDimentio » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:56 am #205715

>4 detectives
>Huge gear buffs

Le buffing your own job meme

One detective is fine, there are rarely ever 4 sec officers, don't encourage them to play detective instead.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:52 pm #205769

One detective can't handle 80 player high pop

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby NikNakFlak » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:03 pm #205771

not with that attitude
REDACTED
pm for deets

PostThis post was deleted by Shadowlight213 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:32 am.
Reason: No suicide jokes

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:27 pm #205777

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I wish you'd write a suicide note.

why are you an insufferable asshole

NikNakFlak wrote:not with that attitude

I've been playing Detective a lot recently, and on high pop, there's simply too much shit going on for you to ever handle by yourself. I usually have to hire a partner.

It also doesn't help that as soon as it's revealed it's a conversion gamemode, you're no longer allowed to investigate anyone for crimes other than being an antag.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:51 pm #205780

I don't want to add to Crag's signature, but Crag usually isn't far from the truth.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby InsaneHyena » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:00 pm #205784

> Not traffic, homicide, arson and vice
Looks like dementia is kicking in early, Goof!
Bring back papercult.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Anonmare » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:26 pm #205804

I'd rather not take away the detective's uniqueness, but, what about instead of them being detectives; they were forensic investigators? Four investigators sounds like overkill to me but two wouldn't be so bad and, in theory, would keep the other in check while the detective could be the guy who brings them the evidence, follows up on leads and puts it all in the evidence locker at the end Ha!.
Come to think of it, you could replace the lawyer jobs with them but still keep them as is, I.E. Not give them mindshield implants and still able to roll antag and they'd still technically have the same responsibilities of a lawyer but they'd have something to actually do when there's no trials. They'd probably need maintenance access but other than that, actual balance changes are pretty minimal.

As for investigation, I'd add a special "Autopsy" surgery that can only be done on a dead body (Doing it on a living person will just tell you it's too early for that), that will determine the cause of death and give a general idea of what the murder weapon was with syndicate weapons leaving behind obvious clues. Plus I'd give the investigators a mass spectrometer to do blood analysis on bodies to determine what was in their system and a medical analyzer for overall damage to the body.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:48 pm #205811

InsaneHyena wrote:> Not traffic, homicide, arson and vice
Looks like dementia is kicking in early, Goof!

we dont have cars so I couldn't do traffic, sorry

however, the unused burglary desk worked pretty well for the concept

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby MrEousTranger » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:56 pm #205813

Give detective access to medical and surgery,
Then we can talk autopsies.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:04 pm #205816

to be honest i think detective is actually in a good place right now already

like yeah maybe he cant get to every crime be he really shouldnt be, sec should never be completely infallible like that
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Falamazeer » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:18 am #205877

file000J.gif
Meh, I copied the gif from the old forums and it looks kinda shity, rightclick open in new tab or something to see it right
file000J.gif (1.52 KiB) Viewed 6321 times

http://www.ss13.eu/oldtgforum/sprites/F ... ites!.html
I made this back in 2011 or so in the old forums, in a nutshell, I wanted these outfits to spawn in the detectives office so assistants could assist the detective by being basically CSI.

NCI stands for Nanotrasen Criminal Investiations.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby srifenbyxp » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:17 pm #205951

iamgoofball wrote:One detective can't handle 80 player high pop



Only a unrobust nigger would say this, youre not a unrobust nigger are you?
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:51 pm #205962

I've never had a problem solving crimes(during tator/ling) as a detective, regardless of population. Gotta be smart about it AND NOT ARREST PEOPLE, THAT ISN'T YOUR JOB.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby firecage » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:00 pm #205963

Goof. Naturally a single detective wouldn't be able to handle it. That is also why there are 5 or 6 sec officers, a warden, and a HoS.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Pybro » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:14 pm #205986

Fleshing out forensics more sounds nice, but I'd worry about balancing "actually being able to figure out who did something" with "people still being able to get away with murder".

As for the uniforms, why not just give the Defective two CSI uniforms in his locker or something but not create a new job. If he wants a hand, let him take an assistant to the HoPs. Anything else just invites inflating the sec force even further and making more cops. Turning the Defective into a mini-HoS won't solve the problem of Detective playing cop, it'll just exacerbate it.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Screemonster » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:54 am #206102

make two detective slots and then use the antag-roller to tell each one secretly at roundstart that they're either a BY THE BOOK VETERAN JUST WEEKS FROM RETIREMENT or a LOOSE CANNON THAT GETS RESULTS

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Gylifi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:39 am #206121

I'd welcome any changed to detective. I feel it's a very 'stale' job, and most detectives end up becoming just another sec officer. Spicing up their job could probably help this.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:57 am #206132

Four detectives: Fuck no
Other stuff about painted bombs and arson detection: fuck yes
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby ThanatosRa » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:12 pm #206237

Only if there's an option for a Magnum PI type guy. Like hawaiian shirt, shorts and a ballcap.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Malkevin » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:11 pm #206248

This space intentionally left blank.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:17 pm #206251

What if I just tase someone and find the traitor gear in their bag instead and then they get executed because I'm never traitor so everyone will believe me 100%

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:17 am #206295

detective is a role that does not belong in /tg/ ss13, there is zero roleplay and it's incredibly easy to find out who is an antag.

if you dare to use your scanner, you're called a powergaming antag hunter anyway.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby ShadowDimentio » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:41 am #206297

Paprika there's trimming fat and there's disemboweling someone

Guess which you just suggested is
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:12 am #206348

You can choose to keep this game epic mafia in space and have roles for the sake of roles or you can make the game better without relying on people's enjoyment riding on how much 'content' there is. Everyone here knows it as well as I do; gimmicks don't last long enough to warrant them being around.

The detective is replaced by someone having his tool. There is literally no reason to keep him. There's no reason to keep lawyers either. They're clowns with sec access and the courtroom is barely fucking used. I understand keeping the warden because he still has a job to do and the armory keeps him relevant but literally WHAT the fuck does the detective do that sec officers can't if they had his tool? being defined by 1 piece of equipment is so fucking gay.

And you can't just add more forensic depth because baycode/paradise/vg has that and it's the same shit. The crimes are always black and white. Someone killed someone or stole something. A fucking retard can figure out who did it 99% of the time because the game doesn't have fucking 10000000 people inside of a city or densely populated area. It's a handful of fucking chucklefucks who do the same shit every goddamn round. You can literally play for a week and antaghunt like the best of them. I'm like 99% in catching antags when I don't witness them do crimes as HoS and that's a pretty good rate for antaghunting considering it's the detective's whole purpose. Yeah I fuck up sometimes but that's why you don't blatantly murder people you think did something. They usually shoot back if they did it anyway and you can just go 'whoops guess you didn't do it'.

Also people just scream on the radio when something happens most of the time anyway. That's a huge problem but we aren't going to remove radios so there's no reason to have the detective.

The game should move towards more open conflict. Less sneak shit. The game isn't a fucking slideshow anymore and the robust combat can actually be fun if you put effort into making more 'loud' antags. Detective is useless in the future of ss13, unless it stays in this shitty limbo, in which case he's slightly less useless I guess lol?
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:11 am #206360

paprika wrote:The detective is replaced by someone having his tool. There is literally no reason to keep him. There's no reason to keep lawyers either. They're clowns with sec access and the courtroom is barely fucking used. I understand keeping the warden because he still has a job to do and the armory keeps him relevant but literally WHAT the fuck does the detective do that sec officers can't if they had his tool? being defined by 1 piece of equipment is so fucking gay.

This is one of the current problems I have with detective, as a detective player. The detective should have a variety of tools and skills available only to a detective that you can't just give to a sec officer/the HoS and completely negate his role. His tools and abilities shouldn't be available unless there is a detective.

This is a problem with a lot of jobs in my opinion, the HoS is just the biggest example of it because every HoS player absolutely loves holding the entire armory, and lone wolfing it with the detective's scanner and doing everyone's job. I find myself running into HoSes who just get all access, and just waltz into my workplace and do my job to get what they need, as any job. HoS needs chems? He just walks in, uses my dispenser, and shoots me if I resist. HoS needs R&D printed shit? RIP my resource management what the HOS says goes.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:14 am #206361

paprika wrote:And you can't just add more forensic depth because baycode/paradise/vg has that and it's the same shit. The crimes are always black and white. Someone killed someone or stole something. A fucking retard can figure out who did it 99% of the time because the game doesn't have fucking 10000000 people inside of a city or densely populated area. It's a handful of fucking chucklefucks who do the same shit every goddamn round. You can literally play for a week and antaghunt like the best of them. I'm like 99% in catching antags when I don't witness them do crimes as HoS and that's a pretty good rate for antaghunting considering it's the detective's whole purpose. Yeah I fuck up sometimes but that's why you don't blatantly murder people you think did something. They usually shoot back if they did it anyway and you can just go 'whoops guess you didn't do it'.


This is also a fair point and does undermine a lot of stuff here.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Helios » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:53 am #206366

paprika wrote:You can choose to keep this game epic mafia in space and have roles for the sake of roles or you can make the game better without relying on people's enjoyment riding on how much 'content' there is. Everyone here knows it as well as I do; gimmicks don't last long enough to warrant them being around.

The detective is replaced by someone having his tool. There is literally no reason to keep him. There's no reason to keep lawyers either. They're clowns with sec access and the courtroom is barely fucking used. I understand keeping the warden because he still has a job to do and the armory keeps him relevant but literally WHAT the fuck does the detective do that sec officers can't if they had his tool? being defined by 1 piece of equipment is so fucking gay.

And you can't just add more forensic depth because baycode/paradise/vg has that and it's the same shit. The crimes are always black and white. Someone killed someone or stole something. A fucking retard can figure out who did it 99% of the time because the game doesn't have fucking 10000000 people inside of a city or densely populated area. It's a handful of fucking chucklefucks who do the same shit every goddamn round. You can literally play for a week and antaghunt like the best of them. I'm like 99% in catching antags when I don't witness them do crimes as HoS and that's a pretty good rate for antaghunting considering it's the detective's whole purpose. Yeah I fuck up sometimes but that's why you don't blatantly murder people you think did something. They usually shoot back if they did it anyway and you can just go 'whoops guess you didn't do it'.

Also people just scream on the radio when something happens most of the time anyway. That's a huge problem but we aren't going to remove radios so there's no reason to have the detective.

The game should move towards more open conflict. Less sneak shit. The game isn't a fucking slideshow anymore and the robust combat can actually be fun if you put effort into making more 'loud' antags. Detective is useless in the future of ss13, unless it stays in this shitty limbo, in which case he's slightly less useless I guess lol?

There's all kinds of work the detective can do, it's just involving interviews and stuff.
Let's say there's a gang, in science. You can check the door for prints ,find out everyone who's not from the department, they might be cultists, might not be.
That's why you take them in, and talk to them in the interview room.
Interview room is a key room for detectives, if they RP it that way

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:08 am #206367

Then the hos barges in and does everything for you

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:52 pm #206410

iamgoofball wrote:Then the hos barges in and spams his cheap, renewable, HUD scannable, antag test.


Fixed.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Aloraydrel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:45 pm #206424

Antag testing/deconversion was a mistake

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby ShadowDimentio » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:11 pm #206436

>Cheap

They're 1000 points each nigga, 1500 points buys a crate of lasers.
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-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
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"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Sidon » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:30 pm #206467

The HoS (and security to a lesser extent, also the fault of the HoS anyway) is way way too entitled.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Cheimon » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:44 pm #206479

Pedantic, but the detective is defined by *two* objects: the scanner and the revolver. The revolver is a significant weapon (arguably the best on the station) and before steelrifles (now only on some maps) it was the only ballistic weapon you'd expect to see in a normal (that is, not armed up) security force. The presence of the gun provides Dirty Harry style situations where the detective outperforms standard officers in a few niche instances.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:40 pm #206495

There should be more security but they should be focused on killing shit and saving the crew by flinging themselves at threats like true redshirts, not solving crimes

The detective is a problem because as long as he exists, this 'crime solving' shit will exist too

I remember when this game had a place for roleplay, and a place for the detective looking cool as fuck and doing real sleuthing, but you can't force things to go back to that and many have tried. You might as well try to make the hyper violent and faster paced nature of modern ss13 more fun by giving sec more to do that isn't validhunting because that's all they do right now unless there's a wizard or nuke ops or one of the fringe as fuck cases that don't involve tasing the crew

I will push this 'external threats' meme until it happens
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Sidon » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:17 am #206510

External threats are more frustrating for a lot of reasons tho

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:28 am #206528

Literally how, you are the first person I've seen say that. There is literally nothing frustrating about them from a sec perspective and if anything they're way easier to balance because metagaming is much less of an issue.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby ShadowDimentio » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:58 am #206535

Paprika I know you don't play and all but there's still a place for detective. I frequently call upon them to scan shit I dig up as HoS and respond to potential suspicious areas by scanning them. Sure I could do it myself, but I've got antags to dunk. If the detective finds prints on something that points to an antag great, if not whatever.
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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Sidon » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:42 am #206543

paprika wrote:Literally how, you are the first person I've seen say that. There is literally nothing frustrating about them from a sec perspective and if anything they're way easier to balance because metagaming is much less of an issue.

1. it doesn't stop players from being shitheads to sec and others, I'm sure an admin can attest to that

2. It's harder to balance without just copying nuke ops due to players getting butt hurt for not having an easy win. See blob/wizard

3. security acts like entitled douches more than any other round. you don't even have a foot to stand on because external threats!!!

4. turns the round into a total free for all and they're often short without any payoff for a ton of jobs

5. security's perspective isn't the games perspective

6. :wetfloorsign:

These points can go for conversion modes as well, and we just need to cut one or two and just fucking leave it. Add more complex game events instead.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Jacough » Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:21 am #206563

paprika wrote:
The detective is replaced by someone having his tool.


The HoP is replaced by someone having his ID. Let's remove him too
Image

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:02 am #206574

Jacough wrote:
paprika wrote:
The detective is replaced by someone having his tool.


The HoP is replaced by someone having his ID. Let's remove him too

Nice false equivalency, it's almost like an object that you hit things with to antaghunt is way different than a role that has actual responsibility and power since ID access is way more useful & important than a random tool that could be given to sec officers
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby paprika » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:04 am #206575

Sidon wrote:
paprika wrote:Literally how, you are the first person I've seen say that. There is literally nothing frustrating about them from a sec perspective and if anything they're way easier to balance because metagaming is much less of an issue.

1. it doesn't stop players from being shitheads to sec and others, I'm sure an admin can attest to that

2. It's harder to balance without just copying nuke ops due to players getting butt hurt for not having an easy win. See blob/wizard

3. security acts like entitled douches more than any other round. you don't even have a foot to stand on because external threats!!!

4. turns the round into a total free for all and they're often short without any payoff for a ton of jobs

5. security's perspective isn't the games perspective

6. :wetfloorsign:

These points can go for conversion modes as well, and we just need to cut one or two and just fucking leave it. Add more complex game events instead.


Hm so external threat antags that aren't hidden amongst the crew don't give payoff to other jobs? Are you implying shit like traitor does? Because they don't, and the only payoff for most jobs is getting antaghunt stuff to fight traitors with and metagame, which is why those jobs are usually gravitated towards

Security's perspective is absolutely the game's perspective though, they have more impact on rounds than any other role besides command and sometimes (rarely) research/engineering, are you absolutely fucking blind? Why do you thikn there's always so much discussion/balance changes around sec and antags?
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Sidon » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:33 am #206586

You're right there, but I have too many problems in general with our gamemodes. I dunno how to fix 'em since not everyone has my opinions, and it's just hard as fuck to get anyone to compromise. Or actually do anything to fix ones that need it, like gang.

Sec only has that because the players that roll it are really the only ones who care the most about punishing bad behavoir and/or hunting for valids. They're actually one of the weakest departments, since they have no scaling and only rely on the concept of security and other departments goodies. When shit breaks loose you're not even guaranteed to get armory goodies, since it's been made public before you returned to the brig. Most of the discussions with sec stem from putting the entitled players who roll it in check, who act much like the greyshirts they love gulaging. If the game shifts more to encourage other departments to only seek valids, sec is fucked. They're too volatile with the crew, not special, and outgunned with little effort. So no, I don't think sec's perspective is the most important. It's just the most visible and talked about one.

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Re: wrote a design document for a detective overhaul

Postby Cheimon » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:12 pm #206615

Out of the external threat modes, we have nuke, blob, and wizard.

Blob and wizard have clear elements that players find frustrating. I don't see the need to go into detail here.

The 40k server's "roll the dice" system seems to do well for them.


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