Why is Artyom dying?

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420goslingboy69
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Why is Artyom dying?

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:10 pm #19855

First and foremost, I don't know why. I have theories and assumptions but none of them are based on anything that I can prove. So, I just want to ask the public: If you dislike Artyom, why do you not play on it?
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:21 pm #19857

There are a few reasons I assume people just flat out don't play on Artyom.
For one thing, it doesn't run Box. That's a big issue for a lot of people.
Another reason is it's lowpop for the most part.
People may also be turned off by the tight knit social circles.
From what I've heard it's slooowly losing people, is that true?
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby bandit » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:32 pm #19861

Some people don't want to get involved in NTStation, whether it's because they don't like the code or don't want to be associated with TEH DRAMAZ.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby NikNakFlak » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:49 pm #19865

There is legit almost zero drama. #nanobus is full of the same talkative individuals day to day. We talk about mapping, away missions, code, events in our lives, day to day shit, random shit, sprites, more random shit, and more random shit. There is never any drama.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:51 pm #19866

"We circlejerk all day and yell at people if they have different opinions. Thankfully, that isn't often, as nobody wants anything to do with NTstation anymore."
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby ColonicAcid » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:52 pm #19867

i stopped playing because i lost the motivation to play.
y'know the fun thing about ss13 was learning it. I went on goon like a week back and I had more fun than I have had playing this shitty game for the last 2 years. Why? Because woah what is this and what is that and I can OD on bath salts and wow I can supplex people. This is superficial mechanics due to the fact that after a while it'll stop being fun because you understand it. This game for me lacks any form of retention value apart from roleplay, and when the roleplay isn't exactly great there is no point in staying.

How do I know the roleplay isn't good? Well I don't, but the majority of the reason why people didn't like #2 and in turn don't like Artyom is because of the social circles. This problem haunted #2, it haunted sigurd, it haunted Basil and it'll haunt Artyom. The people in the social circle do not move to inhibit anyone into their clique. To get into the clique you, the newbie, have to smash at a proverbial wall and hope one day you'll go through and be known. That is the only way you can have an enjoyable experience with people interacting with you round and round again. Some people don't want that and hey I can't blame them for it. Unless you play a "TOTES WACKY XD" character you'll never get noticed because you're average, no matter how good of a roleplayer you are.

The roleplay not being great isn't the reason I left, I left because well; I'm burned out. I'll probably come back again at a later date. This doesn't matter though, anyone who says that Artyom is going to die is a dumbass though. This is a phase that has happened with #2 since literally for ever. After sigurd became popular guess what happened to #2? It died pretty much. Now look at Artyom's userbase. Pyrocreep, a player I remember from 2012 and 2013 came back a few weeks ago and he literally had 0 idea who 99% of the server was.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:56 pm #19869

People having friends in the community and preferring to play or roleplay with them over other people isn't a problem under normal circumstances when the population is high but when it's the same 20 people and the same admins every day I'm pretty sure people get a lot of cabin fever, and that's speaking from my personal experience. I didn't give a fuck about MUH METAGAMES, MUH METAFRIENDS when the population on basil was high because it was like a very minor thing that made it slightly different than sybil and it wasn't this big all-encompassing 'feature' of the server.

Artyom isn't server 2 like basil was, CA, so that's where you're wrong. If people want an alternative to sybil, basil already exists for that. If anything you're proving that artyom is the sigurd in this situation and basil is the one going through a phase and will eventually be repopulated.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby ColonicAcid » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:59 pm #19871

Oh fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:01 am #19872

Basil will be back to metastation eventually and we'll all migrate there and artyom will die like sigurd did but at least we got a bunch of features and polishes we can port to /tg/ that /tg/ has already expressed they want. I'm going to start on that as soon as the feature freeze is over since it's a pretty easy thing to do, porting things from one /tg/ fork to /tg/ itself.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Mandurrrh » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:25 am #19876

Started with losing a significant amount of basil pop with the nt/tg split.

-low pop means rare event rounds. It's slowly decreased to we are lucky for enough pop to have a ling round. Players aren't staying in game when not enough ready up for events because we are playing the same round over and over again and it becomes repetitive and boring. And it's a domino effect. We lose a few more and chances of enough readied up players becomes less and less likely.

-No regular admin presence to help keep players logged on and active in these low pop long rounds. We have a few regular admins but they are there for only a handful of hours during the peak population time and the rest of the day/night no admins on artyom. We have a blast when they are there but it's such a small window of time it's not making much of a difference.

-because we are playing the same round on repeat its caused groups to form and limited opportunities to mix it up with out events to pull us away from our jobs and rp. Getting comfortable in these repeat rounds with the same characters is not only causing the clicks but it gives us little distraction or platforms to interact with other regular players from a different role or perspective. Without the events/objectives/common enemies/common goals we focus on ic rp get stuck in our ways. It's human nature. So there's fighting, griefing, grudging, and exclusivity.

At this point we don't have much to offer new players other than drama. No events/special rounds. No regular admin/server wide events.

I really don't want artyom/basil to die out. I play spessmen because of the player base that made it so enjoyable. But it's falling apart and the player base is dwindling.


Hashtag Save Artyom

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby bandit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:43 am #19878

I just want to point out, for history's sake, that the same problems (low pop, only tator/extended, no admins) plagued Sibyl for quite some time.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Tokiko2 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:52 am #19880

The current game mode is - Secret!
Possibilities: extended, extended, extended and 1 traitor that won't be able to do anything that impacts the round in a meaningful way

Boring! Probably not the main reason but I am sure that this is atleast partly responsible for new people not wanting to play on Artyom and regulars leaving.

I liked Basils slightly slower rounds with 30-40 players but Artyoms current population is so low that the game becomes really boring and makes people leave, leading to even lower population. Bad cycle. Still sad about the drama stuffs, the split and the large population drop that followed this.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Spacemanspark » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:58 am #19882

I feel bad for going back to Sybil for a bit now.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Rumia29 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:03 am #19883

I'm not sure what other peoples reasons are, but I migrated to Sybil (when I rarely play on /TG/) mainly due to wanting to stay with the original code, for whatever reason I had.
I wouldn't mind the two codes merging though. That would be neat.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Bluespace » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:27 am #19885

People are straight up bored of Artyom.
It offers nothing to new players.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:47 am #19888

I mean, I'll be back on Artyom shortly, I've just been too busy moving to play.
Because I know I truly was a loved and well respected player in the community.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby IcePacks » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:31 am #19894

Rounds are long, slow, and understaffed. The dev team has made considerable concessions towards people who just want to fuck around and hang out. Death is often stultifying.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby bandit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:41 am #19895

IcePacks wrote:Rounds are long, slow, and understaffed. The dev team has made considerable concessions towards people who just want to fuck around and hang out. Death is often stultifying.


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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby mrpain » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:19 am #19897

I'd play it if it had more people. Low pop rounds are dreadfully boring most of the time.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Konork » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:37 am #19900

mrpain wrote:I'd play it if it had more people. Low pop rounds are dreadfully boring most of the time.

This is probably what everyone else is saying. Everyone wants more people, but no one wants to be the people that hang around at low pop before it gets to a decent level.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:38 am #19901

I-I hang around before it gets there sometimes.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:47 am #19902

Tokiko2 wrote:The current game mode is - Secret!
Possibilities: extended, extended, extended and 1 traitor that won't be able to do anything that impacts the round in a meaningful way


You have no right to complain about this since you never ready up, even though your character is the LEAST likely to get murderboned when targeted by an antag. People who play a character with a largely punchable personality and still ready up knowing they'll be mercilessly hunted by people who have assassination objectives (and sometimes don't) are the true heroes.

Anyway, yeah, the promises of us having all these supposed features that would never get merged on /tg/ didn't happen since most of the people in #coderbus associated with /tg/'s codebase say that almost all of our features are ones they'd accept. The only thing we have over /tg/ is faster (buggier, half-assed) implementation.

And metastation, which /tg/ has anyway, and metacide who enjoys mapping on /tg/'s code branch more too, for basil.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby WJohnston » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:09 am #19911

This is an extremely depressing thread.
Apparently I was an director or something.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:10 am #19912

It's just a video game, we all want something, if we don't get what we want from artyom we'll either start a new server or go back to what worked before (basil running metastation).

Edit: I don't regret anything about arty though especially contributing, it helped me cut my teeth and get into ss13 code as well as find a bunch of shit that could be improved on /tg/.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:20 am #19914

I just realized now that I'm not living under Eastern Standard time, a lot of my late night spessmaning will be with a very lower pop. than what I normally do.
Which is totally fine.
paprika wrote:People who play a character with a largely punchable personality and still ready up knowing they'll be mercilessly hunted by people who have assassination objectives (and sometimes don't) are the true heroes.

The people that wait to join in annoy the Hell out of me, even if I like them as a player/character.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Aranclanos » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:04 am #19918

Because sybil is more fun, it's really only about population. Yeah, you might deslike meta or box, you might deslike NT or tg, but at the end of the day, it's about population.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby NikNakFlak » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:31 am #19935

paprika wrote:
Tokiko2 wrote:The current game mode is - Secret!
Possibilities: extended, extended, extended and 1 traitor that won't be able to do anything that impacts the round in a meaningful way

You have no right to complain about this since you never ready up, even though your character is the LEAST likely to get murderboned when targeted by an antag. People who play a character with a largely punchable personality and still ready up knowing they'll be mercilessly hunted by people who have assassination objectives (and sometimes don't) are the true heroes.

As much as I don't want to jump on the hate train, this is very true. The rare chance we do get above 20 players, there is tokiko in the lobby, refusing to ready up so they don't get targeted by objectives. Great player, and good role-play, but I agree with paprka in the saying that you should not complain.

Wjohnston wrote: This thread is extremely depressing

I agree with this too.


As much as I like the NT codebase policy and "way" more, I usually do PRs for both codebases anyway. The only thing that annoys me in TG is how painfully looooonggg it takes for anything to get in. And feature freezes that happen every month in a codebase with far fewer bugs than NT. All coding aside, I don't even understand why sibyl gets population that is absurd in numbers. Every position is filled on sibyl and there are 20 assistants. I mean, seriously??? I find it more enjoyable to play on artyom, and I just find the people nicer but I get along with really everyone. I think both code bases are great, I just like the NT pace more, in both speed of merging of PRs and speed of play style.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:20 am #19941

420goslingboy69 wrote:So, I just want to ask the public: If you dislike Artyom, why do you not play on it?

It generally has low population and lack of staff, I don't like that.
It runs map which I consider to be bad, especially with low population.
It runs NTStation which I didn't like in the beginning, I dunno if anything changed, but the changes that were made at first I consider bad.

Also stuff that Colonic said about burning out.

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Sishen » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:26 am #19944

Aranclanos wrote:Because sybil is more fun, it's really only about population. Yeah, you might deslike meta or box, you might deslike NT or tg, but at the end of the day, it's about population.

lol'd hard

server is dying because I'm not there, simple as that

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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Miauw » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:16 am #19949

I don't like NTcode, but Basil was the only server that I could stand playing on.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:24 am #19952

I see many external factors that can't be helping Artyom and may be contributing to a decline in player population. The hub servers are WAY more popular now than they were in the years prior. d20 is also running NTstation and overall decreasing the number of people joining from /tg/ in recent months. The forum drama couldn't have helped; we still get people who show up and say "hey did the website move?". http://spacestation13.com/about/ doesn't have links to Artyom but does link Sibyl and Basil.

Now of course most of these also apply to Sibyl, so obviously other factors are at work. We really can't do anything about most of these sadly. I don't think an advertisement campaign would help much, although interserver linkage might.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:56 am #19954

A message as simple as "Why not join Artyom for an alternate codebase and to reduce Sibyl overcrowding?" when Sybil inevitably falls over 60-70+ would help a lot, I think.

I started on Sybil and pretty much play it exclusively, in large part because the few times I joined Artyom, OOC heckled me out for being a Sybil player, which wasn't the greatest impression.

I might try adminning more since it seems like a better place to run events, but I've always liked that I can do multiple small things in Sybil that tend not to interact, all in one round, and when they do clash they often have hilarious consequences. I just enjoy having more people to work with.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby ShizCalev » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:35 pm #19956

60 really isn't overly crowded on Box. At the least it means that someone'll likely set up the engine eventually.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:15 pm #19962

The reasons why Artyom is "dying" are simple.

- Server Population: As already noted, why should a player play on a server with 2 people when the server over has 60 people?

- Server Attitude: People will proclaim otherwise, but in my brief stint on Artyom the people there can be toxic, and lord help you if you tell them your from Sybil.

- The Map: This comes to personal preference, but while Metastation is a interesting map, it is way to large for the population Artyom usually gets. Not only that but many people seem to prefer Boxstation over Metastation. Most of the time on Artyom the station feels completely empty, in contrast to Sybil where the station feels like its buzzing with activity.

- Lack of game mode's: Tying into the population problem, nothing interesting happens on Artyom since its either Extended or Traitors: Extended Edition (I think Extended was/is being removed from rotation, but that does not solve the problem at its core).

This leads to a Catch 22, you need more people to play good game modes, but you need more good game modes to attract more people.

- Lack of good and unique features: While Drones and Dismemberment are great, Artyom severely lacks in features whereas Sybil is getting constant feature additions regularly (Not so much during these inane feature freezes). Not to mention these exclusive features will inevitably end up on Sybil in the near future.

The only biggest difference in server features is run speed and stun times.

In my humble opinion, I just feel /nt/ in on course to just stop exsisting. Artyom getting moth balled, all features being ported over to /tg/ code and everyone from Artyom moving back to Basil.
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Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Ivan Issaccs » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:21 pm #19968

Well it seems to have been a little slow the last few weeks, so I can only assume that because I've been working that everyone went searching the other servers to find out where Im playing and ended up staying.
Artyom, I apologise for so grievously injuring you but I will be back around with my loving personal style that you all love so very much. Hugs and Kisses, Get well soon. Cant wait for some free time so that I can finally continue the the DonklestoopXKrake wubbing xox.

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Remie Richards
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: England, UK, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Known Universe
Byond Username: CrimsonVision

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:19 pm #19979

If Artyom "recovers" and gets a stable ok Population, it's good.
if Artyom dies and it's unique features get merged into /tg/, It's good.

The whole NTcode vs. /tg/code may have split the community a bit, but I feel it's a damn good lesson in communication between branches.
Personally I see NTcode being picked clean for it's features by /tg/ and then dieing out.
Basil will probably regain it's population and everyone will be happy again.

Artyom and NTcode existed because people felt (not saying it's true) that /tg/ didn't listen to them.
But honestly, I interacted with /tg/ coders more while NT was around than I ever did just being with /tg/ and I feel that's a nice improvement.

NTcode also served as a sort of SS13 kindergarten for new coders too, some of which just needed a seemingly more "friendly" environment to start in.

tl;dr it's all good people.
私は完璧

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Miauw
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:23 am
Byond Username: Miauw62

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Miauw » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:42 pm #19989

solution:
code server network system that alerts players on all servers when a round starts/ends on a different server, as to advoid wasting dead people.
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.

<Tobba> I stared into BYOND and it farted

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FJKrake
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:35 pm

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby FJKrake » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:56 pm #19994

"PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:37 pm.
Reason: Take your grudging arguments elsewhere" Thanks NikNak for deleting the entire post instead of that one single section. Lets recapitulate:

1.Lets retry this is a nutshell: Atryom has lost its mediums sized population, which was its main attraction. Whats left is metrafrienders n a couple of griefers. The servers main attraction was that medium sized population and medium-length rounds. Without that its plain simple a bad server that gets outdone in other respects by other servers. Bay is much better for RP and VG is better for sandboxing. The implementation of new code is done poorly and does not justify sticking around either.

2.The Lowpop extended game mode which allowed for sandboxing is no more, which means that once the server drops below 10 people, every round is a boring, repetitive death match. Extended allowed the server pop to fill up and you could have a decently populated round afterwards. Now it happens a lot that people get killed during lowpop rounds and simply never rejoin. Hence, the server stays at this low 6-10 playercount.

3.Many cool people like Kalinka, Kalim, Vinny Saylor, Oscar Grouch etcetera are gone. TG Basil used to have a striking balance between 50% greytide kids and 50% decent people that would take the jobs and keep the station running in a decent manner. That balance is gone.

4. Admins: Many admin you wouldve seen 6 months ago are nowhere to be seen right now. Theres is only 1 rule effectively being enforced that separates TG from a pure grief server: You can not kill as nonantag. This rule aint even enforced 100%. Theres no proper nickname control, theres no basic antag guidelines, de facto making antag a legit griefer role on the server. If you get banned for murdering as nonantag, you get banned for 1 day per kills, making it laughable. Bans should stack up and increase over time if you want to discourage people from being shits. Antags need a basic guideline policy implemented to prevent people from instantly ruining rounds as antags / griefing.

Many of those faults everyone willingly overlooked so long there was that medium sized 20-40 people pop you could play on. Now thats gone, there isnt much left keeping you here.

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ColonicAcid
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:36 pm
Byond Username: ColonicAcid

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby ColonicAcid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:37 pm #19997

Ya see you've done something. I don't understand people's need to kill someone for every little infraction. They break into your workplace? TIME TO KILL THEM!!!
Like why nigga you do that shit and then they kill you and then you kill them and it's an endless cycle. I think the last time I killed someone as non antag was when I was virologist and someone broke in with a revolver and balaclava, I ran around them while disarming, managed to get the revolver and killed him. This was atleast 9 months ago.
I've never been banned for killing as non antag because I don't look for every excuse to do so.

Also Ironic shitposting is still shitposting @ you know who you are.
crack is whack but smacks got your back

PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:22 pm.
Reason: Cleaning up garbage

Mandurrrh
 

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Mandurrrh » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:46 pm #19999

Braindude wrote:
420goslingboy69 wrote:First and foremost, I don't know why. I have theories and assumptions but none of them are based on anything that I can prove. So, I just want to ask the public: If you dislike Artyom, why do you not play on it?


artyom is dying becaus artyom is bad.


Braindude please.

Then why to you keep trying to sneak on (;

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ColonicAcid
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:36 pm
Byond Username: ColonicAcid

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby ColonicAcid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:48 pm #20000

Because his crippling autism means he can only have interactions with people through a computer screen.
crack is whack but smacks got your back

PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:22 pm.
Reason: More garbage cleaning

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NikNakFlak
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:08 pm
Byond Username: NikNakflak

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby NikNakFlak » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:26 pm #20011

Krake, if you can't post without dragging your piss match in with Ivan, don't post at all. Braindude's opinion is not valid and account is evading from another permabanned forum account so that is gone too. Back on topic, I've had some good rounds on arty, and if it does dissapear, I will be a bit sad, but basil is still there too.
REDACTED
pm for deets

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Lovecraft
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:19 am
Location: Currently roaming
Byond Username: Rabukurafuto

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:32 pm #20013

I'm getting my computer fixed today, so I'll be playing regularly again.
If Alfred's not there the server is dead to me.
Friendly reminder that you are beautiful and this server would be nothing without your continued support
I play August Finster, a suave midget with a grudge, as well as Francis Heart, the naked guitarist of the Cosmos.
Spoiler:
Nobody is worthless. PM me anytime to talk.

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FJKrake
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:35 pm

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby FJKrake » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:39 pm #20014

Lovecraft wrote:I'm getting my computer fixed today, so I'll be playing regularly again.
If Alfred's not there the server is dead to me.


Didnt see Keplin in days. One more to the good guys that went missing list.

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Lovecraft
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:19 am
Location: Currently roaming
Byond Username: Rabukurafuto

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby Lovecraft » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:40 pm #20015

Well I'll be on more than I should be in an effort to get the place lively again.
Friendly reminder that you are beautiful and this server would be nothing without your continued support
I play August Finster, a suave midget with a grudge, as well as Francis Heart, the naked guitarist of the Cosmos.
Spoiler:
Nobody is worthless. PM me anytime to talk.

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paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Why is Artyom dying?

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:21 pm #20037

RR summed it up nicely. Even if artyom dies out as a server and NT dies out as a codebase the people involved have at least brought something back from it and it's not some big pissing contest -- After all, the only one with a REAL axe to grind with /tg/ code was erro and he's not even involved with NTcode anymore. Personally, I was always too intimidated to contribute to /tg/, but now that I've at least become familiar with git on NT I feel more comfortable doing so. I'm sure the same goes for other NT contributors too.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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