Payday 2

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:52 am #40732

Bottom post of the previous page:

the KKK hood is top tier

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:13 am #40793

My Brenner currently has 30 stability, 16 accuracy, and 35 damage. Likewise my KSP is currently at 40 damage, 26 stability, and an 8 accuracy, as I am testing out the funnel of fun on it, almost certainly going back to the tactical compensator to sit at 18 accuracy. Right now it feels about as niche as a STRYKE, and if I wanted a pseudo STYKE primary I would use the M308. Are you looking at an unmodded guns? Because with mods the Brenner is much more accurate and longer ranges than the Clarion without losing any kill potential, as the 5 less damage is not enough to change the headshot kill rate.

Also, I am assuming you are using a retro grip, there is no G2 grip for the Clarion.

That also happens to be my current Clarion build save for a different sight due to preference. It gives me the killing power of my LMG at close range for sweeping a room, is accurate enough to kill small groups of enemies at range if I really control the shots, yet fits in at 25 visibility for my fugitive bonuses, and can be used to charge into a group of enemies unlike my Brenner. Ammo efficient as all hell for a battle rifle too. I almost never run out as long as I make sure to use my chimano custom outside of emergencies even if you need to reload a lot. Good weapon. Great weapon. I honestly find myself using it more but I always switch to my Brenner when it is time to lock down the map utterly when I am rolling as a techforcer.

Ameri-Mad probably looks the best. I never liked the Dallas pattern though.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:03 pm #40906

One of the recent patches changed some of the names of things around (it also fucked up the model for the custom grip on the Chimano Custom).

The "Retro Grip" was misnamed from the get-go, since it's actually the grip from the second generation FAMAS. They've changed it in game to be called the "G2 Grip".

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:07 pm #40910

Either the skull or the racist.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:11 pm #40912

so i blew like 2 million dollars on a fully modded chimano custom and
its really underwhelming

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:44 am #41024

If you pimp it out it's one of the better pistols in the game.

Then again everyone uses either the Locomotive 12G or Deagle anyway.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:41 am #41060

P250 is fucking great, best gun in the game IMO

CSPAN · Post by **CSPAN** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:50 am #41081

Bernetti 9 for that ammo cap though.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:41 am #41090

The custom is a bit better than the Bernetti on harder difficulties because it has a better fire rate, which matters when you are dealing with 2 shot kills on FBI swat and 7 or 6 shot kills on heavy swat. An extra 26 bullets isn't that helpful where as the extra fire rate and stability is.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:48 am #41384

what's the point of being competitive in a cooperative game and min/maxing when trainers exist again

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:33 pm #41441

paprika wrote:what's the point of being competitive in a cooperative game and min/maxing when trainers exist again

This argument ignores some pretty heavy aspects of human motivation, and I feel is a failure of imagination. If you don't chose your skills completely randomly you are trying to optimize to do something, even if it is a non-competitive optimization. You are trying to allow yourself to do something you couldn't normally do in order to make a positive chance on the experience. It is why almost everyone gets transporter to at least basic. It makes a massively positive change on the experience. Optimization in this sense allows you to make the game easier, or at least less of a hassle.

Competitive optimization in a co-operative game is about allowing yourself to tackle larger and larger challenges and letting you tackle much more difficult experiences, not about making the XP grind easier. You are right, it is very easy to get XP, and if that is all that you care about I recommend you play cookie clicker, which streamlines the entire experience down to what you are looking for. What people going into OK loud heists want is more primal.

People optimizing their builds don't look down on players looking to do casual heists with their friends, or at least they shouldn't, because playing for the camaraderie of facing something down with friends is perfectly acceptable. They are trying to attack something challenging, and there is a certain thrill in finding something that works and sharing information and ideas you have with other people. It is a combination of sport in the sense that you need to be able to beat the level, art in the sense you are trying to create something new, and logic in the sense you need to be able to digest information in order to figure out what works and what doesn't. And the kicker is that a team of people who enjoy theory-craft can get that same sense of camaraderie that you are getting from running lower difficulty missions with a slightly sub-optimal build.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:12 pm #41460

Well at least you answered my question

Also did they make this game harder? I tried playing hard mode with 2 friends of average skill level and we got dunked and really had a struggle just because we weren't using tryhard CAR-4 builds it feels like.

I get that hard mode is supposed to be hard but when payday 2 came out I frequently did very hard with only a couple friends and did pretty well. Normal enemy difficulty is a fucking joke but on hard mode we ran into 2 dozers at once very frequently, i mean god damn.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:17 pm #41465

Hardmode got a bit of a buff if I recall, in the sense that many enemies that show up in it now are deadlier.

Dozers were upped in freqency because hardmode dozers were really easy to kill with high powered assault rifles or concentrated fire. If you have trouble with them I recommend trying out a high powered secondary SMG or the battle-rifle primaries depending on if you prefer to run ammo efficient primaries or ammo efficient secondaries respectively. It is why people talk about efficient guns versus inefficient guns all the time. You need an inefficient gun to kill stuff like dozers or to clear out part of a wave in an emergency, where as your efficient gun does the bulk of the actual work.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:03 am #41658

It's not that we're being competitive with eachother, it's that the game gets really fucking ridiculous on deathwish.

REALLY fucking ridiculous. Try Transport: Crossroads on Deathwish. Holy fucking shit. Everyone needs to be on the tip-top of their game and the gang needs to cover a lot of bases in order to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting out of that one alive.

If you see Dezz and I yelling at eachother about which gun to use, it's not because we're like "IM BETTER THAN YOU" it's because we want to be sure each person is really armed to the teeth as well as they could be, because some dude running around with scrubby n00b guns on DW heists is going to fuck the whole team over.

You NEED all four people to be near-flawless on some of these fuckers if you're going to make it through.

DW Rats? You can't just blow up the lab and book. You need to cook at least 3(?) bags while the game is sending waves of skulldozers and shit at you. GOOD FUCKING LUCK HOMBRE.

It sounds retarded that we're being so vicious about it but like, it's to make sure you can trust that guy to cover your back.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:24 am #41734

That too.

Someone who uses a gun you don't like is one thing. Tastes differ and as long as the choice is not an objectively bad one for what you are doing you can generally pull through.

Someone who clearly doesn't put any thought into that is another beast. If you don't care, no one is going to care about you when they are trying to put together a DW team.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:30 am #41736

Bulldozers are pretty easy to kill with a few shots from a HE Shotgun followed by Judge to the face.

But as Anon said, DW requires you to be a top tier player.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:05 pm #41767

Depends on the shotgun. A HE round generally instantly pops a dozer mask, but is unable to kill them. Meanwhile any rapid fire weapon is sufficient to take out the dozer once his mask is out. The judge is also already so ridiculous in terms of ammo reserve that it needs to be doing something huge for you already, it can't be part of a dozer killing combo that requires you to ruin the ammo efficiency of your primary as well, when there are already anti-dozer secondaries that require no such aid. I would personally just put the HE in the judge. If you have bullet storm or aced swan song I would definitely HE the judge. It becomes brutal when you can just pull the trigger as fast as you can.

Using HE to helmet pop completely breaks down on DW. There you generally see people running inefficient primaries that strip the dozer helmet in 3 seconds or so. Sniper rifles, LMGs, or the Gewehr all work at this plenty fast.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:58 pm #41811

The Gewehr is fucking fantastic. I'm falling in love with it hard.

Dat H&K delayed-blowback roller-locking action mmm mmm mm fuckin' everybody up.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:08 pm #41815

Using the M1101somenumber shotgun with HE rounds, plus a judge coupled with mastermind/enforcer skills while using a dodge card deck is quite reliable on DW.

Ammo is not a big concern since I can run around and grab ammo, essentially every enemy dies in one hit from the judge and the HE Primairy deals with BD's/Shields/Clumps of police.

Post by **Fatal** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:24 pm #41818

Personally, I use suppressed Clarion and a dodge build, with the buffs from the ghost tree and the mastermind tree, the Clarion has practically no recoil, and massive amounts of damage, and the dodge build usually helps more than heavy armor

The next patch will fix a lot of the issues with akimbo, generally that pistol skills currently don't affect akimbo weapons, but in the next patch they will, so they might become viable

The real question is, do you guys have DW masks?

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:29 pm #41845

I have noticed that, despite everyone complaining dodge was killed with the negative dodge chances on all armor, dodge builds becoming super huge now that the new perk system is out.

I expected as much. One thing they wanted to do was make going into two trees less vital, and the two trees that had broken synergy were techforcer, giving you absurd armor regen, bonus armor, and damage resistance effects. It was just plain hard to die as one. If you think you are imagining yourself dying more often after crimefest, you are not imagining things, you probably are.

The problem with armor right now is that dodge builds give comparable tank to armor builds, especially with fugitive players, but lack all of the drawbacks of armor. If you multiply my evasion chance into my armor currently I am packing only 20 less effective armor than someone in an iron man vest, and dodge still helps you when you dip into HP as well. Armor slows your ass down something hardcore right now and that has become a much bigger problem with post launch heists which contain less cover that is farther away. Your tank no longer holds up against even small groups of enemies during the shlep around.

I am glad dualies are getting pilstol bonus skills, but I am not sure how helpful that will be for them. Frankly the reason they are bad is that the math for them is... off, with most pistols rocking a 2 headshot kill the added ROF, dual shot, and loss of stability means they generally reduce overall kill potential, with the deagles being the biggest offender of worthlessness. Current pistol skills save for the fugitive's wouldn't synergize well at all. In fact sorry to disappoint people but as anyone who has tried STRYKE mastermind may tell you they honestly could become worse with this change, save for the dual Bernettis which will likely get better. Pistols have always been about ridiculously stable and accurate ammo efficiency that also had the capacity to decimate a squad or ten with good aim, and dualies needed to be that turned up to 11 to justify taking up a primaray slot and either a completely awful perk deck or a top tier skill. Instead they are bad at everything you would want pistol tier damage for.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:01 pm #41853

I don't want to start this argument again but IMO they're like LMG's.

They look fun to use, they can be fun to use, but ultimately they suck.

/opinions

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:06 pm #41884

Unlike LMGs you can't mod them really to be a "Good if its your flavor" type deal.

Mathematically they are just worse than other primaries, forget about superior enough to require a skill gate.

LMGs have advantages over normal guns just in terms of a massive ammo pool and the way it affects ammo rationing, and can be modded to at least be on par with rifles. It is up to you if you find their disadvantages too difficult to work around.

Dual pistols just don't have a niche. They take everything good about pistols, like their ammo efficiency, versatility, and control, and just toss it out the window. Then they put them into the primary slot, double the shot count in a way that is actually supremely unhelpful when you consider that most pistols are one hit kills anyway, and then charge a skill for it. The only current use for dual pistols is that they further increased the concealment cap, and the only use I could see for them after mastermind affects them is to allow you to have both an mid-range efficiency pistol loadout in secondary and dual desert eagles in primary for butchering specials. Even then you have to go rather high up into mastermind and get to the final tier in fugitive to make it worth it.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:27 pm #41886

Speaking of LMGs, I have no idea how effective it really is, but that panic thing from the perk deck is somewhat satisfying.

Ripping into a small group of cops and seeing one or two break off and run to more distant cover is amusing. I'm not sure if it even is the perk deck thing, but that seems to be entirely new behavior

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:26 am #41890

Man the auto shotguns in this game got either nerfed or are just generally garbage

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:35 am #41895

theyre

paprika wrote:just generally garbage

the only game i can recall where auto-shotguns arent nerfed bullshit is killing floor

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:14 am #41898

Well killing floor has monies tied to better weapons so weapons can be direct upgrades of other weapons, but they're usually have SOME downsides (auto shotgun recoil is crap)

I really hate when devs use 'less damage' as a way to balance auto shotguns. Recoil in auto shotguns irl is fucking bonkers so that should be the real counter balance vs regular shotties to keep them viable instead of a shitty gimmick.

I think you can use shotguns in payday to stun enemies pretty effectively though, right?

Also that .50 bolt action's damage is fucking hilarious

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 am #41902

As I said, HE Rounds with a auto shotgun can wreck large amount of low level guys (Very useful if your surrounded) and stun Bulldozers to kingdom come. Not to mention they stun every police unit in the game barring Cloakers.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:41 am #41904

paprika wrote:Man the auto shotguns in this game got either nerfed or are just generally garbage

The semi-automatic shotguns are insane and are automatic in almost every respect save for the fact they get single shot bonuses from the techie.

The automatic shotgun exists for HE rounds at this point as you can spray down a small area and reload quickly if you are not an enforcer. If you have good trigger discipline you can use it effectively to clear a wave and de-visor a dozer among the swat scrubs at the same time. It isn't a top tier weapon in DW because there you are expected to be using enforcer load speed boosts to maximize your damage, but it isn't the garbage it was at launch.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:42 pm #41985

Auto shotguns used to just plain be useless, before shotgun ammo types.

Now they have a very small niche they do fit into at times.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:21 pm #42711

New Gage pack planned and coming in two days

..And it actually has something I'd pay for
MG42
Yes please

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:30 pm #42762

XSI wrote: MG42

>mfw
>time to reroll Tech/Forcer

Spoiler:

When the hell are they going to get around to adding the next female heister? She's appearing in all the promo art and stuff now despite not actually having a name, any information, or a release date.

It's like they've added her just enough to say "look there's a girl!" and then left it at that. No idea what her associated skill-tree will be like, what her name is, etc.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:35 pm #42765

fuck yeah wolfbrigade
i need to watch that movie

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:26 pm #42802

She has been in two pictures. The first one seemed to be a bit of a joke too, she was literally just peeking her head in.

I suspect she may enter in during this DLC. She may or may not have her own tree. If she does it may be focused on her being a psychotic and use an LMG.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:05 pm #42806

her name is clover

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:49 am #42837

I'd bet the Hoxton/John Wick stuff we're getting now was originally intended to be her tree and her deck.

They'd said on twitter ages ago that they wanted to add a 5th female heister before Crimefest confirmed Hoxton's return and this whole John Wick cross promo.

I'd imagine they're probably scratching their head trying to come up with another niche for her to fill. The run-and-gun psychopath we all guessed originally would be hers turns out to be shared between Hoxton and Wick.

It'd be funny, given how she's the slightest one of the group, to make her the heavy weapons specialist. Not sure how you would balance her around DLC exclusive equipment though? A person who hasn't bought the DLC's for things like hand grenades and LMG's would find her whole tree totally useless.

They're at the point where they're running out of mechanics to hand out. What heist objects are there left to give someone bonuses to? Hacking computers faster? Cooking meth faster?

What things could be given new interactions? Being able to pick up and carry a hostage like a human shield? Being able to tazer cops yourself? There's not a lot of stuff left that would be unique enough or balanced enough to get away with.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:24 am #42842

Hoxton has a very conservative playstyle that absolutely prevents you from running around spraying a room down. You play it like a 2005 third person shooter where you glue your shoulder to cover every so often.

It also includes a few nods to Hoxton's old role as the team marksman, despite being terrible with sniper rifles.

I highly doubt John Wick's tree was pre-planned at all, as it was extremely poorly planned and actively hurts you the more you level into it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:50 am #42843

They both share the Scoundrel tree.

Hoxton's deck, the "Crook" deck, is fucking great. It's top-tier. The amount of evasion you can get with it and a ballistic vest is stupid, and on most builds is better than wearing anything else. If you see people running into DW games with only skimpy ass vests on don't worry about it. They're probably crooks.

Wick's deck, the "Hitman" deck, is GARBAGE. It's the worst deck in the game. It gives you the ability to use a garbage weapon and is geared towards a cover huddle style of play where you keep taking short breathers from fighting to get your armor back.

(Incidentally IMO from best to worst decks: Crew Chief > Armorer > Crook > Muscle > Rogue > Hitman)

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:43 am #42848

An0n3 wrote:They both share the Scoundrel tree.

Hoxton's deck, the "Crook" deck, is fucking great. It's top-tier. The amount of evasion you can get with it and a ballistic vest is stupid, and on most builds is better than wearing anything else. If you see people running into DW games with only skimpy ass vests on don't worry about it. They're probably crooks.

Wick's deck, the "Hitman" deck, is GARBAGE. It's the worst deck in the game. It gives you the ability to use a garbage weapon and is geared towards a cover huddle style of play where you keep taking short breathers from fighting to get your armor back.

(Incidentally IMO from best to worst decks: Crew Chief > Armorer > Crook > Muscle > Rogue > Hitman)

Wick, if you force him to being a fugitive, doesn't work in any way, because the loss of armor for dodge doesn't actually work. You end up reducing the light ballistic vest down to below a normal unarmored guy with the same dodge value as you or better and more speed. Furthermore its capstone is completely redundant if he is a fugitive. It doesn't even help huddle style because even with heavy armor the regen rate never helps you. Armor regens near instantly and you actually conserve more by just having more.

His deck doesn't go with any class, not jut the sense that it isn't designed for any class, but in the sense no one gains from it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:14 am #42853

Making Wick's deck work requires some stupid combination of Ghost for more dodging, Mastermind for pistol skills, and Technician for better armor regen.

The rapid armor regen combined with a higher passive dodge would hopefully result in more small breathers where you succesfully dodge shots while moving around resulting in brief periods of rapid armor regen.

But even if that did all work you'd be left with a guy who has a good tank and absolutely shit weapons.

Compared to a simple Tech/Forcer + Armorer deck who has a much better tank and stupidly powerful shotguns.

I've seen people using Scoundrel/Rogue + Crook deck to ridiculous effect. Motherfuckers just can't be hit. ECM for stealth heists and health kits for loud. Light Ballistic Vest allday errday.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:18 am #42854

You realize that Wick's deck doesn't decrease regen delay correct?

It increases the regen rate by 40% but reduces armor by more than that amount. And regen rate is not even 1:1 in utility with armor.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:37 am #42856

holy shit it doesnt decrease regen delay?
i thought it had at least that going for it
if it did, maybe it could actually be useful

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:18 am #42864

It does. I was wrong. however it still isn't helpful at all because it reduces your armor to the point a few shots down you. I believe it puts you at the point where even a tactical vest is dealt health damage in one hit by a sniper, which is unacceptable with no dodge rate.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:54 am #42870

A Ghost/Fugitive + Rogue deck in a two-piece can have a 50% dodge that jumps up to 75% when sprinting
...but unfortunately they only get 20 armor.

A Ghost/Fugitive + Crook deck in a lightweight ballistic vest can have a 35% dodge that jumps up to a 60% when sprinting, and gets 50 armor.

EDIT: Forgot you could get another 10% while crouching with Lowblow.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:57 am #42871

How valuable is that 30 armour on OK and DW? In my experience having a higher dodge potential far outweighs the additional 30 armour.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:29 am #42873

Steelpoint wrote:How valuable is that 30 armour on OK and DW? In my experience having a higher dodge potential far outweighs the additional 30 armour.

It's hard to say based on my experience. I've never tried a dodge build on DW. I'm not sure it's viable because even with a 60% dodge from crouching or a 75% from sprinting you WILL still get hit.

I can say that, from screwing up stealth heists in a two-piece, getting hit while dressed for a job interview on DW is prettymuch instant floor. Just going on what I know works, my dream team is two Master/Techs (one Crew Chief, one Armorer perks) and two Tech/Forcers (either Armorer or Muscle perks).

If anyone wants to go be a guinea pig and report their successes on trying to outrun bullets on DW while dressed for your own funeral, by all means let us know how that goes. Remember you have to keep your conceal at or below 25 for it to work, so no big guns either.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:50 am #42878

An0n3 wrote:If anyone wants to go be a guinea pig and report their successes on trying to outrun bullets on DW while dressed for your own funeral, by all means let us know how that goes. Remember you have to keep your conceal at or below 25 for it to work, so no big guns either.

Workin on that, two skill points away from the full build at level 97.
Got tired of being fat. Clarion is pretty decent for low detection, just can't decide on if I want the Signature .40 or the Stryke as my secondary. Either way i'm currently at like 11 detection. 7 if I take off the stupid flashy shit.

Generally stick to Overkill though, deathwish is just dumb that unarmored enemies take multiple headshots to go down.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:19 am #42887

Fugitives benefit massively from wearing the undercover vest. It is actually 50 armor for them and their dodge can go up to 65% on a sprint and 50% on a crouch.

Crouching gives you an effective armor points of 100, 10 over the combined tactical vest non-enforcers have to wear, and 70 under the improved combined tactical vest enforcers wear.

Here is the kicker though, dodge builds help your HP as well.

Your base health is 230. An armorer techforcer therefore has a total effective HP from full health of 485.

A well built fugitive will have with a light armor vest on a crouch 560 effective hit points. They are also faster than the techforcer and thus will be exposed to less enemy fire moving the same distance, meaning your armor will generally go down rarely. You are more useful flanking tough enemies like shields and moving to help people in trouble. If you use quick fix and heal before doing something like a revive your effective HP jumps to 675, and if you are dashng your effective HP is 666.5 without quick fix and 799 with it. More of your overall soak is from health but that is why first aid kits are so OP.

I have repeatedly used fugitive on DW successfully many times. If you think hard about moving to and from cover using things like run and gun you end up having ridiculous suitability.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:00 pm #42959

It seems like the Goto build people are using is Mastermind/Fugitive with the Rogue deck.

I ran a bunch of Overkill and DW missions earlier in two different groups that each had someone doing that, and in each group they were the guy who was keeping everyone else alive.

Post by **Fatal** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:08 am #42992

Dodge builds are certainly viable for DW, but compared to overkill, merely one shot will take your armor away

As long as you play smart, it's no sweat, I run a crook / fugitive / ghost / mastermind build, and DW is no greater challenge than it was when I did it before as mastermind / enforcer, as long as you play smart

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:43 am #43609

Saegrimr wrote:Workin on that

BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA