Payday 2

[dezzmont]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Their use of DLC is also interesting as it is very ala-carte. You don't need any of it and you can have a top tier loadout without it. You also can go to all the missions and even join them without owning the DLC or knowing a friend with it. Some DLC has more of an effect on the game than others. The Shotgun DLC adds special ammo for the shotguns that can dramatically change playstyle, and while default ammo still has some use 00 ammo is for many builds extremely strong. Likewise the weapon pack that adds grenades in helps you out way more than you would think, to the point I am kind of miffed because its the only DLC that flat out adds power directly to your character.

The best DLC to get however if you get any, after getting grenades, is grabbing the courier pack. Those guns you can get are neat, but if you are not using that gun you are not getting value from the DLC. But those courier mods can be used on anything and are often a great way to specialize your gun further.

Meanwhile the assault and sniper DLC isn't at all mandatory and you can just skip them if you don't want to drop the cash. They have good weapons in them that are top tier but they don't invalidate anything else in core. DLCs also tend to, but don't always, have things for DLC owners to grant to their buds. Like the DLC with grenades added a grenade case asset that spawns near the spawn and lets people without the grenade DLC get a set for themselves. Sniper DLC added really worthless zip lines.

Heist DLCs are generally not worth it if you play solo, as you can just join to an existing lobby, meaning you are just buying the right to host and to get one exclusive weapon and a few masks. In group play you just need one person to be able to host it. So if you are just getting into the game don't pick those up.

[Steelpoint]

As you said, DLC wise the only one which I would consider absolutely critical to nab is the courier pack, it really helps bypass the inane RNG attachment unlock system Payday 2 use's and the attachments on offer are overall very effective. The weapon packs are really nice as well, but you can do very well with the base weapons. Not to mention you can get a crap ton of equipment/guns by joining the PD2 Steam group for free.

I also love how you don't need to buy DLC to play a heist, great thing from the first game.

There's currently a sale on PD2 and its DLC's, if you want my opinion on what DLC's to look at here it is.

• PAYDAY 2: Armored Transport - The masks are nice, the guns are mediocre however. However the SMG can be modded to be a very powerful/low concealable weapon which can be good for stealth/fugitive builds.
• Gage Weapon Pack #1 - Very strong DLC, all three weapons are very good and grenades are a good asset. I like using the Eagle Rifle as a modded single shot battlerifle, the MP7 is personal favourite SMG and the pistol can be effective.
• Gage Weapon Pack #2 - If you like LMG's than this is a solid pack. LMG's are more reliant on you going for a Enforce build but can be viable either way. If your not a fan of LMG's than you can skip this.
• Gage Courier Pack - As I said above, at minimum this is the best DLC you can get.
• Gage Sniper Pack - Snipers are surprisingly a very viable weapon in PD2. I've personally enjoyed the R93 Sniper. They also have a added utility of being able to shoot through a Shield. Not a critical DLC to get unless your big into Snipers or you really hate Shields and like three shooting Bulldozers.
• The Big Bank - You don't need this DLC to play the heist. It adds some US President masks and a weapon. Its ok but not something you need and you can easily pass this DLC.
• Gage Shotgun Pack - Adds three shotguns, four melee weapons, masks and alt shotgun ammo. If you love Shotguns/are a Enforcer than this is a must get. The street sweeper secondary is a great Bulldozer stunner and is viable even on Deathwish.
• Gage Assault Pack - Adds a single shot explosive weapon and three Assault rifles. I've not played around with most of them but from what I can tell there just ok.
• Hotline Miami PD2 - Adds 3 SMG's and 5 melee weapons (Technically 4 melee). I love the Uzi SMG but as always its not a critical weapon to get. If you love Hotline Miami you can get this just for the masks. Its an ok DLC otherwise,

[dezzmont]

I would GWP #1 as the second or first heist you get.

The assault pack is really solid. It has really high powered and versatile assault rifles that have the main problem of extreme ammo inefficiency. The grenade launcher however is really good and is a surprisingly good concealable primary if you prefer handguns over SMGs.

Every single DLC weapon bypasses the RNG in mod drops to some degree. The main attachments that are exclusive to the guns and that affect the stats the most are achievement based. The courier mod pack is however overall a better deal not for RNG bypass but because those mods go on EVERYTHING and affect every gun you get.

Least valuable DLCs in my opinion are Big Bank, then the Sniper Pack. Snipers are powerful but are far more niche than LMGs. Meanwhile powerful and efficient SMGs are really great in so many ways to allow you to play with more unusual primary choices, the shotgun pack offers the goofyness of an HE judge with bullet storm and the efficiency of concealed couchette ravens and pseudo-primary AP locomotives, and the assault pack gives you really strong assault rifles.

My current weapon pairing is a cross-kill (Which is still viable despite the new guns as long as you fully mod it. The new community guns are stronger pre-modded, the crosskill post modded) and a raven. Currently running mostly Fugitive, which is a surprisingly strong tree focused on short bursts of violence. With the new changes to tanking I am seeing a lot of enforcer-techies dying in transit to objectives simply because armor can't always keep up with a wave at the speed they are moving. So high movespeed combatants now have utility and can function as pathfinders for the team.

And dropping first aid kits around makes me way too giddy. It feels like I am leaving a present for someone to find.

If anyone gets the game they should put their steam in the thread. It isn't a game that is impossible to get into without friends, but having a mentor makes things a blast. You level up much quicker and get enough money to not be scraping shit together to buy skills let alone apply a mod, and having someone talking you through weapon load outs by mission and working on your build with you removes some trial and error.

[Ricotez]

I love the sniper rifles from the sniper pack. The bullets go through shields, and because the guys carrying shields usually have a big red outline around them, it is very easy to headshot them right through their shield. Usually it only takes 2 bullets to put them down.

They're pretty effective against dozers too. 5-6 headshots will usually take them out or at least smash their visor so your team mates can shoot them in the face.

Their only downside is that they take up your primary weapon slot, but a shotgun secondary will ease the pain.

[dezzmont]

I love the sniper rifles from the sniper pack. The bullets go through shields, and because the guys carrying shields usually have a big red outline around them, it is very easy to headshot them right through their shield. Usually it only takes 2 bullets to put them down.

They're pretty effective against dozers too. 5-6 headshots will usually take them out or at least smash their visor so your team mates can shoot them in the face.

Their only downside is that they take up your primary weapon slot, but a shotgun secondary will ease the pain.

I think that the sniper rifles overall have a weird place in the game right now. AP shotguns can also easily destroy shields at the cost of being less effective at longer ranges. HE shotguns can deal with shields as well. And both options fit into secondary.

Sniper rifles require you to either surrender your primary to be an ultra-specialist with the Thanatos or find a use for the long range semi-efficient platform of the R93. The Rattlesnake holds up really well as a pesudo assault rifle on its own. All 3 are great guns but I just feel like the shotgun pack makes so much more sense if you are specifically looking for anti-shield and splash of dozer duties. Snipers do have the distinction of being one of the guns that gains damage from silencers from a ghost rather than mitigating their damage penalty, and dedicated sniper builds are popular. I wouldn't mind a secondary sniper carbine coming out personally, in order to match the utility of secondary shotguns.

[Ricotez]

I virtually only play Payday 2 with my brother, so I always have someone I can coordinate loadouts with. That's why I always take a sniper rifle, and can usually focus on the special roles that are easier to take out with one.

[dezzmont]

Snipers are perfectly fine in public matches and only get better with co-ordination.

It is just that they can't be an afterthought like an AP loco can be. If you are worried about getting stuck in a channel you can just take an AP loco with your efficient assault rifle. But you can't just take a sniper rifle and get an efficient SMG for more standard firefights. If you pack a sniper rifle, you need to make it do work. And if you don't take a sniper rifle you don't get utility out of the sniper pack, where as shotguns are very common even outside of the penetrating role, meaning that just getting access to new types of shotguns and 00 ammo or flechette is useful.

I would, ideally, get both. But if I had to pick shotguns vs snipers after getting GWP1 and the Courier pack I would just grab shotguns first for the most bang for my buck, even if sniper rifles shine more in their niche.

[srifenbyxp]

Ill start playing payday again if one of you shoot me a buddy request and invites me to a game

[miggles]

idc what dezz says, sniper pack is the only one that adds very important weapons to your game
the rest is only if you want the extra stuff
snipers are important. if you can get kills with it, youre "making it work"

[Saegrimr]

Miggs is right, sure theres perks where you can melee through shields or get AP shotguns, but holy fuck popping visors off bulldozers and then killing them in the next shot before they get a chance to blast your crew is worth it.

Plus all the normal rifles just feel super weak to me, 3 headshots required for most enemies and there is not nearly enough ammo capacity for the amount of shit they throw at you.

[dezzmont]

Snipers other than the Thanatos are LESS efficient at killing bulldozers than assault rifles or shotguns in terms of speed. Your time to kill is actually really high compared to a full sized assault rifle like the Gewehr, which kills a regular dozer in a about 3 seconds with 8 bullets, or any shotgun with HE ammo, especially semi-automatic shotguns, though in the case of HE shotguns you need to switch to a bullet weapon for the final shot much of the time, as while they pretty much instantly take out the visor you want another gun to finish off the head's last hit point. If you don't swap with a HE shotgun you are running about as efficient as AP or 00 ammo, which is still 6 shots on the predator.

Snipers are great but so many people seem to think they are way more special or unique in their role than they are. The shotgun pack is arguably the most important because it allows you to do the most new things and the additions fit into the most builds due to how it both adds new shotguns for each slot and because there are shotguns available for both slots good at basically anything, where as the R93 really isn't as versatile as people seem to think it is when it comes to taking out dozers or clearing out specials. Actually run the numbers, it takes 2 shots to clear out a bulldozer on deathwish with the new perk system, which is decently quick even with the abysmal fire rate, assuming you don't miss and don't care about not having a primary that can clear a room. You could just as easily replace that R93 with an M308 if you really care about killing dozers at long range, and can switch it to full auto in an emergency. You end up giving up ammo efficiency for emergency utility and don't need DLC to fill the same role, and being able to land these shots outside of the drop off range for shotguns, while sometimes useful, is of somewhat limited utility, and in terms of assault rifles the utility drops even more. Dozers generally can be picked off from afar safely due to their weapons and on harder difficulties hanging out in areas with very long sight-lines is usually reserved for funnels. "Normal" rifles also do not generally take 3 head shots unless you are using an economy rifle. Full sized rifles will almost always kill in one hit, and max out at around 4 versus the heaviest enemies. You almost always earn back ammo faster than you use it with good trigger discipline and are given the luxury of spraying down a wave to save the day.

Sniper rifes are fun and useful but are in no way a versatile workhorse nor the most important DLC weapon.While sniper rifles can be used at a longer range than other anti-dozer or shield and have their place the question isn't "Are sniper rifles good?" so much as "Are sniper rifles a priority over other DLC to get your money's worth all things equal?" Sniper rifles grant slightly more ammo efficiency compared to other options, but force you to reduce your ability to clear waves, punish you heavily for missing a shot, provide very specialized utility, and heavily limit your loadout choices, where as the shotgun DLC improves your ability to fight specials, clear waves, provides options with an amazing amount of utility and variety, and makes your load-out choices much less restrictive.

[miggles]

>playing on death shit

[dezzmont]

>playing on death shit

You are talking about optimization. Of course I am going to talk about death wish, it is one of the places where an anti-dozer weapon actually makes sense.

If we are just talking about very hard or overkill then, yeah, take whatever you want, a lone player who knows what they are doing can get you through.

Speaking of carrying, if people get this game feel free to hit me up. Earning your first 30 or so levels in 3 missions so you can start going nuts on real heists is pretty easy when someone just stealths 3 death wish heists for you.

[XSI]

The only reason to really play deathwish, from what I can tell, is for the achievements.
And to stealth shadow raid DW, because that thing is just as easy at normal as it is at DW. If it goes loud, you're fucked either way, high damage cops or not

But then I also did a few Rats DW and the cash from day 3 is really huge if you can grab it. I guess there's just no reason to get all the cash though. What are we going to do with 100mil? Buy more weapons worth 0.3 mil each?

[Steelpoint]

Death Wish is more for bragging rights. The amount of damage/health the AI have on Death Wish is simply unfun.

I would much prefer a AI that was actually smarter, not just more bullet spongy.

[dezzmont]

Death Wish actually gets you really impressive levels of XP. And playing for the challenge of it is fun in of itself. The health of the enemy doesn't actually increase too much in deathwish, you are forced to be more accurate and use cover better. Deathwish basically shits on you if you ignore major mechanics such as suppression and rely entirely on your armor to keep yourself safe in transit and hidey holes to keep you alive. You need to be very proactive in your safety or else you die because funneling tactics outside of some specific heists are not viable, and a lot of stuff that seems pointless in regular play becomes extremely relevant in deathwish. Thanatos users for example can save an entire run and Sentry guns go from "Kinda not practical" to "We are going to need one of these during this specific point in the heist to get to evac." The money is also relevant for people climbing infamy or recently coming out of infamy.

It is basically aspie tryhard mode, not mountains of meat mode. Not to mention the fact the AI is actually tweaked to be less player friendly.

Assuming you are not running anything besides framing frame stealth of course. Most heists on stealth should be run on death wish at all times.

[nsos]

i did some heist on very hard then my teamg ets shit on in some random jewelry heist on normal

[XSI]

It is basically aspie tryhard mode, not mountains of meat mode. Not to mention the fact the AI is actually tweaked to be less player friendly.

Assuming you are not running anything besides framing frame stealth of course. Most heists on stealth should be run on death wish at all times.

Im actually fairly sure that the special DW extra armour and health cops are balanced. outside of specials, the cops in Payday 2 work on a relation of armour to firepower. Higher armour means lower firepower, and vice versa. This is why the unarmoured FBI guys shoot you down in 2-3 shots while the fully armoured units only kinda tickle you.
The exception to these are specials. Tasers, cloakers, and so on all are full power with their own health bar. And dozers most certainly aren't lacking in firepower despite their huge armour

So the special DW ones? Shoot the armoured ones last. They're not going to hurt you as much as the specials and unarmoured.

[dezzmont]

Deathwish missions have the same high damage units as very hard, FBI rescue teams. While the super heavy armored units do not deal as much damage as medium and light units, they still deal hefty damage at least equal to the standard SWAT team.

[Timbrewolf]

LMG's are fucking useless.

They're kinda fun on Normal or Hard missions to just burn through ammo and mow people down but the penalty you take to speed combined with their terrible accuracy and comparatively low damage is garbage through and through. Unless you have pickup buffs you chew through way more ammo killing anybody than you'll pick up from their corpses. On harder difficulties they're dead weight. You'll get gunned down by high level cops as you try to waddle close enough that you can pour damage on people, meanwhile everyone else is just popping helmets and wondering what the fuck you're trying to accomplish.

I'd like to see them get a damage buff across the board to keep them more in line with "assault rifles for people who can't aim" instead of "it's a big SMG". Also working them into the Enforcer tree somehow would be nice. Some kind of perk like "Spray and Pray - When firing a machine gun you take X% less damage" for more Rambo moments.

[dezzmont]

LMGs are amazing, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Their ammo efficiency is absurdly good, they generate a large amount of threat and thus suppression, and their damage sits at the 40 mark when modded, which is considered the ideal on deathwish as it grants you the two hit kill headshot on the heaviest enemy. Mod them for stability and on certain maps they are literally the best weapon you can take. Firestarter Day 3 and Election day 2 Backup Plan both come to mind. On firestarter specifically there is a car up on the bridge that, if an enforcer with an LMG is manning, makes it almost impossible to fail the mission as he can suppress and kill the entire enemy force at spawn. I actually really like running with Book because he really understands his tools when it comes to LMGs and he consistently racks up the bodycount.

If you are having trouble hitting people with the LMG mod a Brenner 21 with a millitary laser module, stubby compensator, and the ergo grip. Fire in tight bursts while aiming down sights at mid range and remember that the movement penalty only applies with the LMG out. You can also mod it for accuracy if you want to snipe with the thing, which is sort of hilarious. If you are a locomotive enforcer there is very little to lose from maining a Benner, and if you are a mastermind with leadership they are downright terrifying. On smaller maps the KSP can clear waves faster than any gun in the game and has the highest DPS of any weapon, but you wield it more like a stereotypical videogame shotgun than a support weapon.

[Steelpoint]

The thing with Death Wish is that it requires the player to min-max their skill set and weapon attachments to the absolute maximum, the equivalent of maximum powergaming, and it heavily discourages you in doing something gimicky or against the gold standard. I prefer Overkill because not only is it still a challenge but it does not punish you for going for a unique build.

An example being my enjoyment of using duel pistols as a cross between a Fugitive and a Mastermind, its extremely effective and enjoyable but would get crapped on hard in Death Wish.

[miggles]

r8 my build http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mnLhiJeGBDa:e ... a:pA4::l88

[dezzmont]

The thing with Death Wish is that it requires the player to min-max their skill set and weapon attachments to the absolute maximum, the equivalent of maximum powergaming, and it heavily discourages you in doing something gimicky or against the gold standard. I prefer Overkill because not only is it still a challenge but it does not punish you for going for a unique build.

An example being my enjoyment of using duel pistols as a cross between a Fugitive and a Mastermind, its extremely effective and enjoyable but would get crapped on hard in Death Wish.

I can respect that. I generally only play DW on weekends when I want to go all out, or when I am playing with my own crew who I know can handle it. And honestly you don't need to min max too hard to do DW well. You can't go in using complete crap but most people run efficient builds anyway and a surprising number of guns are viable. You should be aware however that akimbo doesn't get the handgun bonus, and a mastermind-fugitive pistol specialist would be considered DW viable.

r8 my build http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mnLhiJeGBDa:e ... a:pA4::l88

Pretty good, clearly a support build that doesn't skimp on the ability to actually fight. The fact you have equilibrium on a rifle build infuriates me but you honestly don't have a much better option without infamy and the swap speed can come in handy if you use snipers and pistols. Silent drilling is honestly not great to take unless you know specific situations where you would want it, like if you run shadow raid a ton. Considering you have spotter the points may be better spent on combat engineer and tactical mines, with 1 point in rifleman. Especially because sensor mines tend to have more actual utility in stealth heists than stealth drilling tends to, because stealth drilling can be a determent as drill noises are useful for luring guards on things like day 3 of firestarter. And you took shinobi basic which is always a good sign.

Overall very solid build, ahead of the curve with nuance choices made. 9/10 would rob shit with.

I am currently experimenting with a combat fugitive character. It is surprisingly useful in deathwish and with the passive perk changes I am seeing more and more techforcers die to a lack of speed rather than a lack of tank. I usually serve as the pointman on death wish heists, pushing out to the initial cover quickly while my team provides supporting fire, then drawing fire so they can move safely. Flanking is also ridiculously efficient, and when running it gets more effective armor than the ICTV, and when crouching in a firefight its effective HP matches a flack jacket. The first aid kit is also arguably more useful than a medkit in most situations. http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mda:eDa:gefCa ... a:pO8::l70

[miggles]

im not interested at all in skilling sentries or improved C4, i just have it for the shaped charges and the top tier armor bonus
i would like to make a more offensive build but the utility of fucking up doors, safes, etc is too good to pass up

[dezzmont]

im not interested at all in skilling sentries or improved C4, i just have it for the shaped charges and the top tier armor bonus
i would like to make a more offensive build but the utility of fucking up doors, safes, etc is too good to pass up

Think of it less as an improvement to the C4 and more a way to get actual utility out of those 2 leftover bricks after you blow a door or safe, as well as giving you something more helpful on shadow raid than silent drills. Stealthed drills do not offer utility on any heist besides shadow raid and bank jobs, and even then it isn't useful there as the cages require too much sacrifice for so little gain and no one drills that door anymore. And it removes utility on firestarter day 3 and other heists where you want to lure guards.

It is ultimately your call, but you should seriously think about how often a silent drill actually helps you. You have a 50/50 shot at getting the security door in the right spot for bank and most everyone keycards or bypasses anyway, and cages on shadow raid require you to use 2 pagers to get what statistically will be nothing. Is that really worth 12 points?

As an alternative you could also get the sentry gun and jack of all trades aced, allowing you to deploy a sentry gun to cover the team's dash to escape after you use your C4 on the doors, though that has less synergy with your mastermind skills and doesn't help stealth like you want to with techie.

The build is currently solid. I wouldn't mind having someone set up like this in DW, it is just silent drilling is never worth it outside of extremely dedicated stealth builds for really specialist outfits. It isn't a 1-2 point utility dip, it is over 1/10th of your skill points.

[miggles]

this is what ill do http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mnLhiJeGBDa:e ... a:pA4::l88

[dezzmont]

Trip mine explosive radius is an interesting choice. I personally see more people using trip mine left overs to mark but if you place it in a location where it is unlikely to detonate by accident you could probably use it to clear a horde of specials or highly armored targets.

Basic reduces the drill noise to 4.5 meters or 9 meters depending on if there is a wall in the way, which is for most stealth heists perfectly sufficient as anyone within 10 meters of the drill with LOS is going to see it anyway. Only stealth drill heist I can think of where that is an issue is bank heists, and no one drills the security door anyway.

[miggles]

the thing is that in any given stealth mission ill pretty much be left to wait for whoever's stealthing it to either succeed or fuck up, so ill carry loud gear
in which case, bringing the medkits makes much more sense in case things DO go wrong, since they might need more liberal usage when you have people running around in suits or small vests

[dezzmont]

Many people prefer to cancel heists, but I am a proponent of having people less confident sneaking geared for plan B, especially on the jewelry store, D2 firestarter, and nightclub heists . Sensor mines are only useful on infiltration with real co-ordination so I can see just not bothering. And as a bonus you still can C4 if you are the plan B on Ukrainian job.

Medkit is in a weird spot now and while I may have agreed it would be extremely useful on a plan B in the past, if there is a fugitive on your team you may want to co-ordinate and have him pack first aid even if you are staying out side, and take the ECM yourself depending on the map's size. C4 is also great if most of the team is geared for stealth because you can drop it to take out a huge wave or a dozer. No matter what you take you honestly are in a good spot, the build is really solid.

[Steelpoint]

If we are trading our builds, here's my in progress Mastermind-Fugitive build I've been using. As much as I love using duel pistols I've found that going with Mastermind for the Inspire and taking the buff to the amount of damage a pistol can deal lets me use a pistol as my primary weapon, with it dealing about 51 damage per shot.

http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mSOLIjefGBDa: ... bDa:ia:pO8::

[miggles]

brother's keeper is an absolutely worthless skill
it protects you only against a small group of very low HP enemies that dont respawn after being killed. even if they do do a lot of damage, you can usually kill them before it even matters.
hidden blade would be better for a little extra synergy with sneaky bastard

[dezzmont]

Brothers keeper is worthless and not in a fun way.

Sneaky bastard needs to be aced before you even consider low blow.

Never ace a first aid skill and a medibag skill. Swap combat doctor out for joker or... something. There are a lot of problems with this build and you are out around 21 of your skill points all the time, let alone on specialist runs, which is an extreme level of inefficiency in even a casual build. It means you are taking multiple 4-8 point skills that do almost nothing for you.

I threw together an edited version that trims some fat here http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mSOMIJefGBDa: ... CDa:ia:pO8::

It however doesn't cover everything you want to do. I recommend getting to infamy 2 ASAP and selecting the mastermind tier discount, as it will allow this build to actually be viable. You could throw together something like this http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mSOMIjeGBDa:e ... Da:iba:pO8:: and basically play as a pistol wielding EMT able to get to places quickly and patch people up.

[Steelpoint]

I took some shitty skills to minimize the amount of wasted skill points I'm using.

I have a more robust build but I'm still trying out one that uses Fugitive since I've had a blast with it.

You are right in that I should skip the medic bag skills and use the alternative skills.

[XSI]

I know I'm a page late
But LMGs are pretty awesome

They're for two things, mainly. Supression, where you stop the enemy from even getting to you.
And chokepoints. If for example Hoxton day 2 the group is in the forensics lab trying to figure shit out, one enforcer with an LMG aiming at the only way in can keep every last cop out(Perhaps not dozers or shields, but that's why you keep a friend nearby and call them out). And with the thing aimed head height, any of them that try to get in anyway get their helmets popped off.

They're not as great as a rifle at long range killing, sure. And they don't do as much to a dozer as the thanathos, but they have their place

Grenade launcher too. At first I found it to be pretty pointless because other weapons did better at anything it could do, and you can just toss a grenade if you want the stun. But after a bit I found that it too has a niche.
Most weapons can be used in some way for something, as long as the person using them can figure out how, where, and when

And I still want an MG42 or deployable bipods for LMGs. Preferably both

[Steelpoint]

LMG's are definitely very effective in the right hands, a Enforcer can wield it to great effect.

I also have to mention how powerful my 50 damage Crosskill pistol is. It can kill a Bulldozer in about 15 shots to the head, including a Skulldozer (At least the one on Hoxton Day 1).

[dezzmont]

The LMG can potentially become a solid ranged weapon with mods, and the KSP is, without specific skills, the fastest way to kill a dozer in the game. Most people discount them when they find how bad the unmodded recoil is, but LMGs are not just a niche weapon, but a great primary gun. While they excel in chokepints and suppression when fired with precision you can use it to one shot snipers and control the map at any range.

With gunslinger the STRYK surpasses the KSP's damage but also becomes completely uncontrollable.

[Timbrewolf]

I think you mean "fastest way to get killed by a dozer" because you have to draw aggro and be standing in the open while your bullet hose pours on the damage.

Vs. high-damage single shot weapons that let you put damage on target and then take cover between shots.

I don't think you guys are using LMG's enough across enough missions and difficulties if you think this highly of them. I've rolled Tech/Forcer, Ghost/Forcer, and Master/Tech and there's a better weapon for every situation you could possibly think to use an LMG in. They have no niche. Lacking a specific niche, they are not "Jacks of all Trades" either.

I LOVED the brenner in Payday and spent a long time trying to force myself to believe that LMG's were good in Payday2. They're not. At all. Anything you can do with any of them can be outdone by a Clarion or Car-4. The encumberment speed, lengthy reload, lack of irons, and piss-poor ammo economics puts them straight into the trash. If they're so great how come I've never seen any of you using them?

Checkmate, athiests.

[dezzmont]

I posted a huge ass response but I just can't. It comes across as ranting because so much of what you said makes no sense, like saying the highest DPS gun in the game has no niche, or outright wrong like claiming that the most ammo efficient weapon class in the game has a poor ammo economy or that they spend too much time reloading despite having only twice as much reload time as a car-4 and yet has over twice as much ammo as a fully modded Car. Not to mention the fact that the car has a negative ammo efficiency once you reach deathwish.

Also, you need to look at the wiki and learn what threat does. It REDUCES the am mount of fire coming at you, it doesn't increase it.

9 bullets for a 3 bullet kill an0n3. What the fuck are you smoking? I want some, because there is actually no way to get more efficient than a 3:1 ratio in PD2.

[Timbrewolf]

Oh shit dezzmont is theory crafting again everyone take a drink.

1) I've never seen you use an LMG once in the games we've played together
2) Many players (myself included) have noticed that while outputting a high threat can momentarily suppress the people you're shooting at, it also draws fire from everyone else you're not shooting at. When the suppression affect fades, they will resume being focused on you. When we first started playing the game I was a Tech/Forcer and that was my role on the team, remember? I would suppress small groups of cops, sure, while also drawing the fire of everyone else on the map.
3) I've never seen you use an LMG once in the games we've played together
4) 3 Bullet kill? You know what else easily does that? The Clarion, which (barring reloads) has an even higher DPS, better accuracy, better stability, and a faster per-reload speed. It also doesn't slow you down to use it, has iron sights, and can fit scopes. You can even silence it and let your ghost bonus give you extra damage and armor penetration for even higher DPS.

I'd love to see you run up to a DW dozer with a KSP and use your superior threat generation to suppress it before it kills you. But then again

5) I've never seen you use an LMG once in the games we've played together

[dezzmont]

1): I am currently playing a fugitive. I can't equip an LMG without nuking my concealment, though that gives me an idea for a high speed LMG build based around scooting about with a secondary and then plopping down with an LMG...
2): Many players are wrong. Threat purely works as a suppression mechanic, not an agro mechanic. There is actually an agro mechanic but it is entirely unrelated to threat, and is based on actions preformed. Firing a silenced STRYKE raises your agro faster than an LMG does. The reason you think that suppression gets you agro is because something players do to try to suppress enemies with any gun, firing a lot, generates agro. Doesn't matter if it is a silent Car-4 or a KSP, save for the fact that the KSP has a larger fire rate.
3): You know book? Who uses LMGs a ton and regularly clears the map? Or how about streamers or pretty much anyone posting in deathwish hesits. Those people use it a lot, and most advocate 2 Thanatos and 2 KSP with a battle buddy system.
4): The Clarion has a lower DPS than the KSP, needs to reload much more than LMGs, has much worse ammo economy and reserve. You are either stopping to shoot it or are not smart, and is only slightly more stable than a KSP properly modded. It only has the ammo for 3 kills assuming no misses compared to the KSP, gets less reserve back than the KSP per ammo drop, and less ammo per bag. It has worse stability on the move than the KSP, not that you should ever be firing on the move with automatic weapons anyway, and the benefit of scopes is minimal, as most LMG players are fully capable of headshotting snipers, and if the lack of an ironsight bugs you that much you can actually mod the game to have it bring the ironsight up instead of the perfectly usable zoom. Also, lmgs can be silenced and actually gain damage from the ghost silencer perk, as opposed to the Clarion which loses damage when silenced with the ghost perk unless you give up your barrel attachment, which nukes your stability and still fails to make it more damaging than a long barrel Clarion with barrel mods, capping out at 37 damage to a FOF with long barrel's 41. The Clarion also spends more time reloading than the KSP as it lacks a magazine mod and has a higher rate of fire, and ends up being less accurate or stable in damage builds. The Clarion is probably the worst comparison you could make to try to dismiss LMGs. The Gewehr 3 illustrates your intended argument better as it actually does things better than a fully modded LMG in a loud heist, though has a weakness in ammo economy. The Clarion is either used as a pesuo-sniper or a high concealment battle rifle. You can also manage to shove it up to a 45 damage beast but that doesn't really up its kill power versus specials to well, saving a few bullets on a good day and absolutely nuking the weapon's accuracy and stability lower than an unmodded LMG. And when modded for a mix of stability and damage it ends up with its accuracy and stability both being 10 lower than an LMG. If your primary issue with LMGs is a perceived lack of accuracy the Clarion should be a nightmare to use as it is in most ways worse.
5) I could equip one if you would like to show you how useful they are if you like, though Book is the real artist with that shit.

Also, when you claim a weapon is trash you are, in fact, theorycrafting. Theorycrafting poorly, but still theorycrafting. The numbers just do not back up your statements.

[miggles]

[WeeYakk]

Are we all seriously being tryhards over a casual game?

[Timbrewolf]

Are we all seriously being tryhards over a casual game?

You should try doing some heists with the little yellow skulls on them. You might like it.

>Clarion bashing
> having ten less accuracy and stability then an LMG

I've lost all sense of what you're talking about. Are we even playing the same game? Who is feeding you these numbers? I look in my armory and try different combinations of mods and can't get them to represent the statistics spread you're talking about.

[Steelpoint]

So I really like the fugitive play style, but I also want to try and play on Death Wish more since I've found Overkill to be less challenging. When I tried use my earlier fugitive/mastermind build I found myself being woefully ineffective aginst standard Gensec SWAT units, it would take me three shots to the head to kill one (though I don't know if that's good or bad) with my pistol.

So I've worked on this build which seems pretty effective on DW thus far. I've almost got to Infamy 2 though which is good. This build focuses more on the Enforcer/Mastermind tree's and dabbles into Fugitive and Ghost.

http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mSNLhJefGBCda ... 7-13-16-28

I use the Judge as well. I can easily kill off most police units with a single shot from the Judge, and I use my primary weapon against Bulldozers and Shields. A few quick taps with HE round to a BD's face and some rapid Judge Dredd up its head will kill even a Skulldozer.

Essentially I'm a run and gun EMT that is packing some heat.

I'm a bit limited due to my low infamy level, if I got to lv 5 this is what I would use.

http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mSNLhJefGBcda ... 7-13-16-28

[dezzmont]

Are we all seriously being tryhards over a casual game?

You should try doing some heists with the little yellow skulls on them. You might like it.

>Clarion bashing
> having ten less accuracy and stability then an LMG

I've lost all sense of what you're talking about. Are we even playing the same game? Who is feeding you these numbers? I look in my armory and try different combinations of mods and can't get them to represent the statistics spread you're talking about.

I love the shit out of the Clarion. I use it as my primary combat gun... on my fugitive.

http://pd2skills.com/

http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons_(Payday_2)

Clarion is a nice gun because it is rather ammo efficient for a battle rifle and is extremely small. However its base stability is only 12 and modding it for damage to cause it to match a modded LMG makes that number worse. In fact its base accuracy and stability are identical to the Brenner 21, but the Clarion has 8 less damage. It either is used to reach an astounding level of DPS that is only usable at near point blank range or as a high powered stealth, as a more ammo efficient DMR than the Gewehr or by destroying it's stability for pure damage or in its new role as a fugitive gun due to the fact that its concealment increasing options also boost its damage. If you are building the Clarion to match the Brenner it ends up with less damage, less accuracy, and or less stability,.

[Timbrewolf]

I'll have to confirm that comparison with the Brenner but my clarion vs my ksp?

KSP has 38 damage, 8 accuracy, and 32 stability with 910 ROF.

Clarion has 40 damage, 16 accuracy, and 38 stability with 1000 ROF.

The BRRRRT is real.

I need to get more of these damn Big Bank achievements because GLORIOUS RIGHT HAND OF THE FREE WORLD FN FAL mods.

[dezzmont]

Rifles have a maximum of 34 stability. I am going to play with the loadouts to see what you did to it.

[Timbrewolf]

That includes a +16 skill bonus, sorry. Without skills those numbers are:

40 Damage, 16 accuracy, 22 stability on the Clarion

38 damage, 8 accuracy, 21 stability on the KSP

37.5 damage, 12 accuracy, 21 stability on the Brenner 21

Clarion has:
Short Barrel
Competitor's Compensator
Auto-fire
Military Laser Module
G2 Grip
Speculator Sight

You can confirm that shit by going on the pd2skills.com site and using the weapon tool.

So yeah. Clarion > LMG's.

[Timbrewolf]

OKay bro's I need some help deciding with MURRICA mask to make.

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[paprika]

the KKK hood is top tier