Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

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Zellion
 
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Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:10 pm #57537

Dominions 4 is a game about being a pretender god vying for the previous god's seat of power. You use magic, monsters, and soldiers to conquer land and claim the thrones of ascension. The learning curve is a bit like dwarf fortress, unlimited fun awaits at the top of a cliff. I think a few people have it, so we should get some games going.



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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:40 pm #57553

This game is the shit.

Just remember that it is the kind of game where you don't just have to read the manual, but reading the manual during the game is vital to play, mainly to figure out what you can and can't realistically accomplish with magic. The game is really played with meta strategies that utilize magical levels you can't quickly obtain riding on magic level 1 or 2 mages or obtained purely with in nation elements, but it is stupidly rewarding to throw down with cosmic tier magic and summons.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:13 pm #57565

Honestly, you dont need to read the manual. It obviously helps but I learned how to play by playing. Just takes some getting used to, but the manual can help a lot.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:57 pm #57574

>you don't need to read the manual

You need to be taught how to play this game or sit down with the book and learn otherwise you're fucked.

There's so many systems and weird shit going on at once that it's impossible to just "pick it up on the fly". Good fucking luck with that.
I think Dezz means you need to have the manual with you all the time because of the huge matrix of spells and artifacts you unlock by having different magic levels. If you can memorize all that shit good for you but most mortal men aren't autistic enough for that.

I'd totally be down for playing this. This would be a much better choice for streaming/recording than CK2.

EDIT: Inspector is love, Inspector is life

http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Balut » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:37 pm #57583

Reminder that Ulm is the best race and you shouldn't let nerds arguing things about 'strategy' and 'they die a lot' dissuade you of this
"Yeah, they're kick-ass robot pilots!" "But they sing and dance!" "They launch from a secret base..." "...that's right under the opera house!"
Sakura Wars

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:44 pm #57604

Too busy being made out of lava to care about your shit.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:24 pm #57608

skellington best race

I have a group that I play with a lot lately, they would probably maybe be cool with some more people. We could have huge games instead of just us 5 + however many AI. Yes/No? You'll need skype if yes.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby ColonicAcid » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:36 pm #57611

Balut wrote:Reminder that Ulm is the best race and you shouldn't let nerds arguing things about 'strategy' and 'they die a lot' dissuade you of this

ulm is underwhelming in all ages

daily reminder that ermor is the cancer killing this land
crack is whack but smacks got your back

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:43 pm #57614

daily reminder that ermor did nothing wrong

add my skype zellion78 if you wanna play

also my steam is /zellionking

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:15 am #57647

An0n3 wrote:I think Dezz means you need to have the manual with you all the time because of the huge matrix of spells and artifacts you unlock by having different magic levels. If you can memorize all that shit good for you but most mortal men aren't autistic enough for that.

I am not autistic enough for that.

I have a general idea of what I can get with what (Nab a few earth to get... more earth with earth boots) and how to do things (You need a certain amount of patrolers and blood mages to maximize your blood economy per province) but I can't remember off the top of my head what every summon's stats are or what special powers always do. Because sometimes spells don't ever list their full effect in game.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:34 am #57700

Post your swaglords:

CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS STINGIN.png
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:33 am #57747

So looks like you finally managed to get into the Blood Economy, picked up some good IPOs, and diversified your portfolio?

Luck and order are oddly ill mixed but the fact you took what I assume is defensive drain to guard your high armor swag lavamen means you kind of have to have it.

Fire+Earth+Blood gives you amazing access to boosters, and fire has a ton of synergy with earth and blood. And Dormant is a pretty safe pick for an Abysian player. Only problem I can see is the standard weakness of Abyssia, an overfocus on evocation and little ability to directly counter enemy mages without assassins decked out in low grade anti-magic gear, which slows down your mage production and research. You can churn out a fuckton of troops though and hope there are no high end astral or air players to turn that against you, or hope you can play the diplomacy game with them to keep them off your back. Once you get 4 forts shit gets stupid, especially if you get low grade native nature mages for supplies.

I tend to bounce around Arcoscephale, R'yleth, and Pangea, though I have been experimenting with T'ien Ch'i. This is my current pretender for Pangea and my most solidified one.

Image

Strategy is to control early game with the free spawns I get from unrest, midgame ride nature summoning, and then late game adapt based on my site finds and opponents to either focus on blood rituals to crush the enemy with near infinite demons or camp and outlast using astral super weapons to steal entire armies or using summonable preists to domkill.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:49 am #57753

ColonicAcid wrote:
Balut wrote:Reminder that Ulm is the best race and you shouldn't let nerds arguing things about 'strategy' and 'they die a lot' dissuade you of this

ulm is underwhelming in all ages

daily reminder that ermor is the cancer killing this land

Early Age Ermor and Sceleria are #1

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Show me a greater general.

None shall defy fantasy Rome. (even if the dude is from Carthage)
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:05 am #57755

>Magic resistance 14
>Hit pints 30
>Protection 19.

Excuse me while I quiver in my boots. Don't mind the horrific nightmares that general gets by the way. I am sure they are nothing.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:18 am #57758

while that may be true you are ignoring the fact that he is roman.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:21 am #57768

I had some crazy fucking warlock demon thing as an Abyssian once that was dripping in jewels and other bullshit one game. I was dominating the map but those goddamn chinese asshole ghost sorcerer fucks had holed up in their final city.

Every combat would begin with them banishing the fuck out of a ton of my forces. I conquered every single province but this one, and yet I still couldn't crack it. They had a whole army of goddamn mages and nothing else.

So I went apeshit turning out even better and better artifacts for this guy, built a crack squad of other motherfuckers that could all infiltrate in there and then attacked with everything I had + the special unit.

It was glorious. Watching these fucking half demon dudes teleporting and running amok in their back end while my main forces just soaked a shitton of pure magical hatred.

If I had a screen capture of him I would present him as the best General I ever had. I got him as a result of some weird hero event and then just showered him in magical resources. I didn't really know what the fuck gems were for at that point so I just dumped my entire economy and horde of gems over his head and unleashed him.

I won with *teleports behind you*
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:21 am #57779

Yeah I struggled against Ur, they had holed up in their final castle with a fuckton of mages and giants and it took 6 years of sieging to finally bring down their final castle. I only won through attrition and the courageous act of a Centurion called 'Remus' who fought to the death with his legion. The fighting to the death didn't destroy the entire force but it knocked out their pretender long enough for Hannibal to return with a new legion and crush the remaining defenders. The good thing is most my generals survived (Except Remus) so they were all experienced as fuck, I even had some Hastus that were around since the first six year siege.

I even kept track of my losses of the 11 Legions deployed during the siege as the years went on.

Spoiler:
Legion I - Deiotarus
- 113 units

Legion II - Hannibal
- 197 Units

Legion III - Clodius
- 203 Units

Legion IV - Remus (KIA)
-120 Units

Legion V - Fadius
- 80 Units

Legion VI - Quirnirus
- 156 Units

Legion VII - Degalus (Auxiliary/Gladiator Legion)
- 180 Units

Legion VIII - Ancus
- 56 Units

Legion IX - Herminius
- 189 Units

Legion X - Maximus
- 23 Units

Legion XI - Cluentius (Missing an Arm)
- 54 Units

Total Losses: 1371

You might say it was a......... Pyrrhic Victory
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:28 am #57781

Seiging the last castle isn't hard unless you were starting out like An0n3 was. Especially because of dom kills. Every element of magic gets ways to deal with that final seige. Astral and Fire especially, because you can once you get someone to 1 provine effortlessly use the greater mind control magic, or just spam fire spells on the province until all the population and units are gone.
Last edited by dezzmont on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:30 am #57782

The big issue was Dezzmont is that due to the supply of the province itself I never had enough supplies to put the full weight of my army on them, and their mages man, their mages they just kept wiping out droves of infantry and routing the rest. It was only after Remus had killed the Pretender that I had a chance.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:32 am #57783

Snake2512 wrote:The big issue was Dezzmont is that due to the supply of the province itself I never had enough supplies to put the full weight of my army on them, and their mages man, their mages they just kept wiping out droves of infantry and routing the rest. It was only after Remus had killed the Pretender that I had a chance.


Wasn't taking about throwing them into a meat grinder, and assuming that people handle the final seige with pure unit spam kinda is a big noob tell. Versus AI (And I am assuming this is vs AI) you are mainly trying to figure out "unfair" magical combos. The way you deploy and develop infantry matters a lot, but the game is primarily about the mages.

I mean think about it. THEIR mages kept taking you out in droves, presumably AI mages even who can't figure out 90% of the spellbook. You really should have had such an advanced magical economy you could brute force your way through with global spells in a single turn.

And supply problems are for early game and baby tier players. Nature mages are the most common in the game and any construction research obliterates food as an issue, so end game you should very easily be able to produce enough supply granting items to handle it even if your entire army eats food. Summons are generally considered the best units as well and many summons don't eat or don't care about starvation. And starvation only matters if you spend more than a turn in the space you are seiging, which shouldn't ever happen with total map control.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:37 am #57784

I brought up 4 of my own mages, the rest were either researching at the time or dealing with Ry'leh with 2 other legions(or wotever they are) it really didn't tip the scales in my favour all that much and the only ritual spells I had that MIGHT of assisted me was Fires from Afar and Second Sun but I imagine the latter would have fucked me over a lot more, and for the former the mages that could use it were out of reach (probably should have spent some time building them up but I really wasn't expecting the siege to last that long).

Any strategy you recommend for EA Ermor? Magic paths to focus on etc.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:57 am #57793

My fucking dudes weren't even getting to the fight though.

Fat fucking chinese ghost genie asshole snaps his dumbass fingers and all my spooky skellybones and giant demon bat things just get instapopped back to hell.

A good third of my number, which counted for easily half of my strength, were just victim to being taken out at the start of the battle before we could close.

I seiged those bastards for a looooooong fucking time. Spent that time building up the FUCK YOU ANTIMAGIC BRIGADE and giving them the best our demonic bloody treasury could buy.

It worked in the end but I had to basically stop and change the entire way I was playing the game up until that point to do it. Before than I was balls deep in badass summoned creatures and steamrolling the map. Then I walk into like 50 fucking mages all hold up in one castle spamming fucking Banishment at me.

RIP Arch Devils. You guys were fucking bros and looked AWESOME. You cost a fuckton of blood slaves but the cool factor was worth it. In the future I will have to find some way to build amulets or some shit that prevent fuckers from banishing you and hand those out.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:01 am #57796

also holy shit Anon3 this dom4 mod inspector thing has made my life 20x easier.

And im probably never going to use it.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Big Faggot » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:07 am #57797

im not spending 35$ on a game with this big of a learning curve wtf. you never know with shit like this if ur going to drop it or get bored.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Preamble » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:10 am #57800

An0n3 wrote:Post your swaglords:

CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS STINGIN.png


Jesus fuck Anone that thing is an abomination.
I can't think of an age of Abysia where that isn't terrible
>F4 on a nation with national F4 mages in EA
>B4 on a nation with national B4 mages in MA and LA
>Order 2 luck 1
>No growth

More like Lame the Cock Johnson.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:21 am #57806

It's really fucking ridiculous. It's very similar in scope and weirdness to Dwarf Fortress...except it costs a surprising amount of dosh to find out if you like it or not.

I pirated it before buying it. If a company isn't going to make a demo, you make one for yourself.

For your reading pleasure I give you my favorite Dominions story, the story that first interested me in the game. Though it's from Dominions 3, it's still glorious. Behold "What the fuck have I done: The Eater of the Dead"

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/28362785/

Preamble wrote:Jesus fuck Anone that thing is an abomination.
I can't think of an age of Abysia where that isn't terrible
>F4 on a nation with national F4 mages in EA
>B4 on a nation with national B4 mages in MA and LA
>Order 2 luck 1
>No growth

More like Lame the Cock Johnson.


Sounds like someone suffered too many rock bottoms ayy lmao
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Preamble » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:31 am #57808

>Implying your weak-ass Abysia game is in any way acceptable.
Yeah nah mate. I'm basically a master of this game.I've been playing for 3 years, and I have played 53 PBEM's and 18 blitzes. I have won all but 3 of these games. I even modded the game so that my waifu would be a national hero of Jomon (meanwhile your waifu pillow is being put in the wash by Yomom). I have practiced with the most powerful nations for over 23 years now, and to see your pitiful excuse for a pretender is an insult to my intelligence. If you'd like to try to regain a tiny bit of your shattered pride, feel free to 1v1 me, but I must warn you that I will domkill you very, very slowly.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:58 am #57818

Is this level of sperg intentional or unintentional?

I have only ever played three full games. If we played a game I would win not because I beat you but because you would probably get so fucking frustrated with how long I spend on each turn you would quit.

I have dicked around a lot, tried different things and gotten bored, but otherwise only three games have I ever played to completion.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Preamble » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:13 am #57822

An0n3 wrote:Is this level of sperg intentional or unintentional?



I am deadly serious. I am also seriously deadly (this is my catchphrase, btw, so DON'T use it. It's mine)
It's also amusing to me, that you call skill sperg. You wouldn't dare say something like that to my face in game. I'd use my horde of triplebles living pillars to end your pathetic attempts at playing the game. The fact that you think you would beat me as I became bored says a lot about you. I take over 3 hours meticulously planning my moves, and then another 3 hours implementing them. This TV Tropes article might give you an inkling about me: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hessmaster
As a true tactical mastermind, you'd be nothing more than a pawn to me, to manipulate to further my goals. I'd say I look forward to destroying you on the battlefield, but that would be like a king looking forward to slapping a baby to death.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:28 am #57832

Snake2512 wrote:I brought up 4 of my own mages, the rest were either researching at the time or dealing with Ry'leh with 2 other legions(or wotever they are) it really didn't tip the scales in my favour all that much and the only ritual spells I had that MIGHT of assisted me was Fires from Afar and Second Sun but I imagine the latter would have fucked me over a lot more, and for the former the mages that could use it were out of reach (probably should have spent some time building them up but I really wasn't expecting the siege to last that long).

Any strategy you recommend for EA Ermor? Magic paths to focus on etc.

4 mages in a grand 1,000 troop seige means you didn't start pulling mages off research quick enough. In an army of that size you really should have pulled 15, maybe 20. Players getting eliminated generally is an apocalyptic event, especiall when human players are eliminating them. Fires from Afar is one of THE best seige breaking spells in the game, and nations with fire researches are seen as very strong because you can pull some of them to a different lab closer to the front and keep them researching until you corner a large army and have them launch a magical WMD.

EA Ermor have very weak, but spammable, fire 1 national mages that have a 100% chance to get an additional element, making them bog standard human mages. What makes them special is recruit anywhere. Fire on a standard mage isn't normally super amazing, as fire tends to not play well with summons and without high ranks doesn't work well as magical artillery, but the fact that you can recruit them anywhere means you can have every province in the game generate a mage. Note however that it takes a 900 gold investment to be able to recruit them, so you need to have good gold scaling. Fire also synergizes well with gold generation spells, if you find yourself getting a ton of gems. Fire magic boosters can be made rather effortlessly for your nation, which is impressive as fire magic is considered the hardest to break into and the hardest to boost, Skullfire can even be made with a native mage, the flame helmet with fire 4, which you can make with a native mage who lands a fire pick, and if you want to get really fancy with water 4 and fire 4 you can make a booster that affects every base element. However you don't have any sharable fire boosts unlike astral, which can give +1 in a path in combat, which is very unfortunate.

Augurs meanwhile are slow to recruit, making them unsuitable for research magic, but also have something that opens up your game dramatically, astral 1 and death 1.

Astral 1 opens up plenty of great spells if you can get boosters onto them. With S (Astral) 4 on and E (earth) 2 on your pretender you can boost them up to S3 using the skullcap and a crystal coin, which allows some pretty neat out of combat magic like telestatic animation. With the addition of a crystal shield and the light of the north star spell that boosts your in combat astral magic on your mages to 5.

Death has an easier time crafting boosters. The skull staff only requires 2 death, meaning that once you get one on one of your mages you can have him make a bunch of spares, and the skullface require death 5, meaning your pretender only needs to have 4 death magic to create all the low hanging fruit to get a +2 death boost. 3 death has a lot of fantastic summons, including granting you the ability to summon death mages who can summon more death mages!

Paths wise, like many human mages, EA Ermor is entirely dependant on their mage play. While their base units are decent at early expansion and can be massed for large battles that giant players will not be ready for early, they are never actually going to be able to handle serious threats. That means, unlike a more fancy race with giants, you won't want to be crafting magical swords to be passing to your generals, a human decked out with all the best gear still probably gets squished, though assassins are very strong with some basic gear versus mages. However, because path boosting is so important to you, you want to hit construction 4 as soon as you see a point in the game where the first level of boosting is helpful. Don't rush it right away, remember that every nation, even ulm, doesn't want to have crafting set up before they have the thing that will use construction. Eventually want to hit construction 6 to get your second tier boosters. Don't be afraid to give low ranking magical bows early game to your commanders, as human commanders tend to be worthless save for firing those off. If you happen to somehow summon something big, you can give that some gear, but it is unlikely for EA Ermor, you tend to focus on using massed undead. If you find an enemy spamming priests or banishing units invest in assassins to bumrush them. Assassins are best served not with awe inspiring magical armor and weapons, but some of the simpler, finer things in life like winged boots and something like an antimagic amulet or winged trident, or an eye of aiming and a bow, or even a bow, a skull talisman, and some antimagic stuff if you feel really nice. Note that you will likely always face mages in open combat, so getting a strong undead commander with flying or five set to attack the enemy commanders is a great choice. Finally remember that amulet of the dead ends up paying for itself very quickly.

As for the research you will use specifically as Ermor (EVERYONE uses construction), Ermor is in a weird spot. They obviously want some evocation as they have a large amount of fire mages, but it isn't really going to win them the day and most of their mages will never be able to handle most of the fire evocations in the game. Getting it moderately high is fine for the pretender but 6 is the absolute highest you want to go, as that gets you banefires, an arguably rather scarry spell versus giants. However banefires is pretty meh for Ermor compared to what they can get on summoned units.

Conjuration is weird. It is really useful with death magic, and rank 4 is vital to obtain if you want to use serious in combat astral magic, but fire and astral tend to be extremely weak in conjuration for summoning units, being either overpriced or end game respectively. Instead, you will want to focus on enchanting. You do have some very good options for conjuration, but it isn't something I recommend going too deep into unless you have a plan to push into other elements with creative summoning using a pretender, as some elements can be used to summon units with different magical skills than the one used to summon it. This is very high end though, and Ermor is bad at it.

Enchanting has a lot of great utility with death, as just as many summons can be found there. You have some pretty neat summons open due to having fire and death as well, but a standout is reanimate archers, which for only 5 death gems nets you 10 units with a decay proc on arrows, allowing you to decimate living armies and anhilate larger more robust races. Enchantment also helps your troops with a fire synergy, even low level fire mages can turn a battle using flaming arrows with javalin spam. This is especially deadly versus unarmored nations like Pangea or Mictlan. The biggest advantage of enchanting however are simple raise dead spells, which allow you to use death mages as unit factories, is sort of weak on your native mages however due to old age, so you want to do your best to summon low ranking death mages early to take care of that as soon as you start getting death gems. Create reverant at enchantment 3 is a good candidate, as they spawn with 1 death magic, exactly enough to summon more of themselves and build legions of long dead! And if given a skull staff, they can construct... more skull staves! Reverants are like a Von Neumann machine, as long as you got death gems you can make more... and more... and more. With 2 death magic easily spammed you can have them fire off horde of skelletons in combat. Enchanting also grants you access to the eternal pyre, which grants you a fire gem income.

Thamaturgy is normally a strong death pick, but your death mages are not that great and won't realistically enter into an arcane communion with each other. Likewise astral mages generally require you to take some thamaturgy to maximize their utility, but unfortunately you will not be able to mass enough astral mages to link up communions. However there is plenty of low hanging fruit here. Telestatic animation is a fantastic spell if many of your enemies are using undead and allows you to shore up provinces with a powerful priest for a mere 5 astral pearls. and vengance of the dead is a terrifying spell to cast on super combatants.

Finally, your last really viable path for deep exploration is Alteration. Alteration 1 grants you distill gold, which lets you quickly get cash for fire gems if you have extra in order to fund more mage generation, though by the time you really want to make true factories transmute fire really should be ready to go. Solar eclipse has a lot of synergy with your hordes of undead because, remember, Ermor did nothing wrong. Alteration also has a lot of beneficial low level spells for earth, water, and air for your national chance paths, such as wind guide, castable with a generic elemental staff, which makes those decay archers you made earlier much more potent. But if you can get to alteration 8? And have a bunch of reverants with staves? You can start spamming the disentergrate spell, which instantly kills any target hit by it after a magic resistance test, spammable at 10 fatigue. Not exactly practical, especially due to all your evocation fire mages tossing around moderate explosions, but whatever. Alteration 6 also offers soul vortex, which requires only 3 death magic and lets you get a steady income of death gems, which is a huge reason to reach this threshold.

Path wise on your pretender I recommend at least 4 death, which allows you to maximize death boosters. 2 astral and 2 earth allows you to boost astral magic out of combat by 2. If you were to have the ability to get 3 fire and 2 water you could also mage a generic elemental booster, but this is rather unlikely to be possible unless you are playing a very weak pretender. You need good gold income to maximize the benefit of your mages, so order is a very strong pick for you. This means unluck can be used to balance out, but bad events can be very painful if you take drain, which you may want to due to not relying on in combat magic and because you can spam so many researchers. Dormant is a pretty safe pick for you, and imprisoned is actually feasable if you are smart and get boosters using native path chances. Finally, never ever never ever never take a dominion strength of less than 5. Most players consider 6 to be the actual minimum, and 7 is generally considered the "safe" value. 8 is where you start to see dom-kills, and above is almost always a very specialized strategy. Using astral magic boosters and low ranking thamaturgy you can quickly shore up your dominion against stronger foes, and you will be spamming temples as well.

In game strategy site searching is vital for any nation, but especially vital for you. You are extremely gem hungry, so you need to do your best to secure as much land as you can and consistently search it for sites with dedicated mages. EA Ermor absolutely devours gems to power up their summoned mages with path boosters and to cast ritual summons, so finding sites is critical. Don't make the mistake of having your army stop to site search along with the mages and then wait another turn to build a temple and lab if you find a good native mage, you want dedicated teams doing that systematically searching your empire. Defense is important, don't ever forget to build some up on every provence, and make sure all borders have at least 20 defense (which costs 210 gold) but don't generally go over 40 unless you have good reason. Province defense is very fast and lasts forever, but remember that each point costs 1 more than the last, so 50 province defense costs you 1229 gold! Even 30 provine defense costs you 495 and shouldn't be purchased unless you are sure you will consistently hold that point. Instead once you get 20-25 start to recruit native units to that spot, as it will cost much less overall. Summoned undead also are really great for defending provinces as long as you leave an undead leader there, you can easily add 100 units to defend a spot just by having two reverants summong for a few turns.

Preamble wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Is this level of sperg intentional or unintentional?



I am deadly serious. I am also seriously deadly (this is my catchphrase, btw, so DON'T use it. It's mine)
It's also amusing to me, that you call skill sperg. You wouldn't dare say something like that to my face in game. I'd use my horde of triplebles living pillars to end your pathetic attempts at playing the game. The fact that you think you would beat me as I became bored says a lot about you. I take over 3 hours meticulously planning my moves, and then another 3 hours implementing them. This TV Tropes article might give you an inkling about me: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hessmaster
As a true tactical mastermind, you'd be nothing more than a pawn to me, to manipulate to further my goals. I'd say I look forward to destroying you on the battlefield, but that would be like a king looking forward to slapping a baby to death.


Oh snap. Is it on? Its on. I think there is only one way to settle this...

Spoiler:
Also growth with luck and order sounds like overkill to the extreme. I don't think he really needs it. Furthermore the 4 fire and 4 blood is almost certainly there for being a Sabbath master as it would allow him to, with basic boosters, rocket his pretender up to fire 9 using only 8 supporting mages, allowing him to easily fire off flame storms like they were nothing. Blood 4, fire 4, and earth 4 also allow for some very specific magical combos item wise, like the blood stone, and earth boots, granting him +2 to earth magic and locking down earth 6 out of combat for earth blood well, and makes his earth evocations much stronger. He needs both regardless of which age he is in to quickly hit those marks. I suspect he is focusing on lots of lava spells supported with some easy path splashing early game into evocation heavy for end game communions.
Last edited by dezzmont on Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:51 am #57839

Preamble wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Is this level of sperg intentional or unintentional?



I am deadly serious. I am also seriously deadly (this is my catchphrase, btw, so DON'T use it. It's mine)
It's also amusing to me, that you call skill sperg. You wouldn't dare say something like that to my face in game. I'd use my horde of triplebles living pillars to end your pathetic attempts at playing the game. The fact that you think you would beat me as I became bored says a lot about you. I take over 3 hours meticulously planning my moves, and then another 3 hours implementing them. This TV Tropes article might give you an inkling about me: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hessmaster
As a true tactical mastermind, you'd be nothing more than a pawn to me, to manipulate to further my goals. I'd say I look forward to destroying you on the battlefield, but that would be like a king looking forward to slapping a baby to death.

>Dominions 4
>Tactics

and dropped, bloke is clearly joking.

Cheers btw @Dazza
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:54 am #57841

Snake2512 wrote:
Preamble wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Is this level of sperg intentional or unintentional?



I am deadly serious. I am also seriously deadly (this is my catchphrase, btw, so DON'T use it. It's mine)
It's also amusing to me, that you call skill sperg. You wouldn't dare say something like that to my face in game. I'd use my horde of triplebles living pillars to end your pathetic attempts at playing the game. The fact that you think you would beat me as I became bored says a lot about you. I take over 3 hours meticulously planning my moves, and then another 3 hours implementing them. This TV Tropes article might give you an inkling about me: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hessmaster
As a true tactical mastermind, you'd be nothing more than a pawn to me, to manipulate to further my goals. I'd say I look forward to destroying you on the battlefield, but that would be like a king looking forward to slapping a baby to death.

>Dominions 4
>Tactics

and dropped, bloke is clearly joking.


>Not knowing the difference between tactics and strategy.

A lot of people use tactics to refer to small scale engagements and strategy as larger ones, but no, that is not what they mean.

Strategy is the term for broad goals and objectives that advance your position. "I want to control enough gems to endlessly cast spells" is a strategy. Tactics are multiple specific choices you make to obtain those goals. "I will use 1 out of every 3 mages to site search" is a tactic.

While Dom clearly focuses way more on your overal strategies and long range planning, tactics matter a ton. For example EA Ermor's tactics include using javalin spam to surpress low armored indy units. They will use this as part of their overall strategy to sweep out claiming as many spots that are viable for forts as possible as well as one tile around each of them, and then hunker down to spam mages and high armored melee units, which in turn plays into an even larger strategic goal. Because depending on what level you are looking at the same thought can be a strategy or tactic, sweeping out to claim good fort space is the strategic goal of javalin spam, but a tactical goal in a larger metagame to secure a base of income to spam mages, which in turn a tactical goal in your overall spell strategy.

It sounds sort of like semantics, and in a way it is, but semantics are powerful because they affect how you think, and in Dom 4 you benefit greatly by clearly understanding what you want, why you want it, and how it plays into everything else, so realizing when your strategy turned into a failed tactic to obtain a larger goal is important.
Last edited by dezzmont on Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:59 am #57842

I know mate, I know but if you want to brag about something wouldn't you want to gloat your strategic mind? As that is how you want to achieve your victory. Its all well and good being able to carry things out but if you can't think of the proper strategy you are boned.

Simply wanting to control all the gems in order to cast all the spells isn't an adequate strategy anyway, what spells? Why endlessly cast them all? Would it be faster to simply take the opponent by storm? etc etc

I think we can all agree that in a game like Dominions 4 a strategic mind is the most important.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:07 pm #57846

Snake2512 wrote:I know mate, I know but if you want to brag about something wouldn't you want to gloat your strategic mind? As that is how you want to achieve your victory. Its all well and good being able to carry things out but if you can't think of the proper strategy you are boned.

Simply wanting to control all the gems in order to cast all the spells isn't an adequate strategy anyway, what spells? Why endlessly cast them all? Would it be faster to simply take the opponent by storm? etc etc

Actually Dom 4 is often decided by who can control enough gems to spam any useful spell. While of course spamming the right spell is great and all, not much can stop you casting Master Enslave over and over even if your opponents are all high MR targets that generally resist the spell. You need to remember that the game is about magic as an engine. The best engine in the world doesn't drive without fuel, and even a shitty engine can get some movement some of the time as long as you pour gas into it. Gems are your fuel. Always remember that.

Taking your opponent by storm generally only works against the AI. Players are generally going to slap your shit hard if you are going after them early, they tend to research magic paths that lock down early agression quickly by element (Like dipping into some evocation in man for your fire and air attack spells even if your end game is air-fire enchantment, and alteration or enchantment early is really popular with death before going into conjuration if you have a more traditional death nation) and organize their units and armies way better. Army orginization in PVP is intense, and asking fliers to attack rear instantly generally results in a lot of dead fliers as any player worth their salt places some rapid attacking troops in the back to lock that down, and gives bodyguards to their important mages off to the side and to the center of their army. This ain't anyone's first rodeo and in general rushdowns don't work in strategy games vs anyone but the weakest of players.

Of course early fights happen all the time because if you are smart you can hurt your opponent's economy that way, but it rarely is about killing the other players for real until you assemble your mid game engine and fuel it. Some nations, like Ry'leth, are really good at stalling out the game hard. Others, like Pangea, are great at wrecking early. Most human nations fall somewhere in the middle, they don't rush early due to being squishy and tasting good with ketchup, but they can't camp the entire game because most human engines don't stand up to end game ones due to low magical paths, so they want to do as much damage at the mid game when they can leverage their spam advantage the most. If they take enough territory at the mid game it becomes really difficult to break out and win against them, because even though undead archers may not actually be all that scarry once you get superweapons, if you can't fire that weapon often enough to kill those disease arrow throwing freaks you are not going to win.

I would agree being able to rapidly make new strategies or develop a sophisticated one is more important than tactical acumen, but being tactically strong in Dom 4 is really important and more important is understanding those microgoals. A player able to micro in dominions is probably stronger than one able to macro in most situations, as they generally end up being the players who get those early leads in gems and troops by micromanaging movement paths for mages and army formations vs barbarians.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:29 pm #57851

Yes, the battle is decided by the soldiers and weapons but its how you are able to achieve it and adapt to your enemy is where strategy comes into play. We can assume that in the average player v player match both players will be competing for the Throne of Ascensions (if that is the game mode). The goal is to control them all and while your method may to be invest your time into capitalising on all the gems possible, it is no doubt a diversion of resources to do so, thus we can assume a player who plans to swipe the Thrones as fast as possible will apply some pressure onto you and use all his resources into a concentrated offensive into your line. As you have indicated this plan can and most likely will fail, however it is your knowledge and strategy to deal with this that is most valued above your ability to simply search for magic sites and buff your mages. How you plan to react against such a move, the nessecary coutnermeasures to redirect the pressure onto the player (whether it is the destruction of his material through the use of your own or magic, i imagine it depends on the nation).

Your long term thinking on how you plan to obtain the gems, throw off enemy armies(this comes under strategy just as much as tactics), and when to use them would be the real crux of the game ain't?

>You need to remember that the game is about magic as an engine.
Hence the importance of knowing how to obtain and utilise it.

>Master Enslave

Wouldn't achieving this be considered the final goal of successful strategy? (of course achieved by successful tactics)

>Of course early fights happen all the time because if you are smart you can hurt your opponent's economy that way, but it rarely is about killing the other players for real until you assemble your mid game engine and fuel it. Some nations, like Ry'leth, are really good at stalling out the game hard. Others, like Pangea, are great at wrecking early.

Aye, hurting the opponents economy and attempting to stall out the game are formidable strategies that in the end allow you to achieve your final goal.

> but being tactically strong in Dom 4 is really important and more important is understanding those microgoals. A player able to micro in dominions is probably stronger than one able to macro.

Indeed, I agree with this I am not in anyway saying tactics are not important, having the capacity to achieve the goal is vital or you are no more than a dreamer. But to me it just seems background knowledge and developing a concrete strategy is the real first step and I would consider identifying Microgoals to be apart of Strategy as they make up the grand frame work, while tactics being the carrying out of the plan.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby srifenbyxp » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:30 pm #57853

I'm not paying attention to any of this jazz but Human faction will forever be the best faction in any game which it is presented in. So says JOHN CENA THE NECROMANCER
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:37 pm #57856

Snake2512 wrote: We can assume that in the average player v player match both players will be competing for the Throne of Ascensions.

Nnnnnnnope. Not in the least. Those are there to make the end victory faster for people playing normal conquest, not really to replace standard victory, though really weird air-astral players can sometimes manage it with odd builds. I know I did it as Ry'leth once when I realized I was on the verge of dom-killing a player who was next to multiple thrones, allowing me to teleport or fly my armies to the now neutral areas next to them in a single turn and take them the next, but it was sort of a crapshoot. It is generally impossible to swipe all the thrones in a PVP match due to how they are dispersed, with at least one throne for example always being underwater and the map distributing a throne very close to each player's capitol if possible. The thrones do not provide enough of an immediate bonus to replace an actual gem-magic engine, your darkvision doesn't stop my fire arrows as Man from wiping you out.

You are welcome to try to get a throne kill early game if we all play, but you will almost certainly fail because of how hard it actually is in dominions to hold a very specific province in dom 4 and because you are essentially forcing yourself to take the entire map without gems. An0n3 specifically will eat you alive, Abyssia's early game lead with evocation and high armored flaming units will absolutely crush your spearmen and fireflies that mages throw out, and he will grind you into dust if you never actually sit down and prepare yourself to unleash a firey undead apocalypse.

Meanwhile if I am Ry'leth you can kiss any sort of early game win goodbye. And if I am Pangea you just flat out wouldn't ever out fight me with low grade summons and evocations, it just wouldn't ever happen no matter how well you planned the fights and moving about your armies. The only match up versus me that you would have a chance with is vs Arcoscephale and even then the second I noticed you burning your end game I would knuckle down with some ridiculous national summons to end you.
Last edited by dezzmont on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:38 pm #57857

I see, so you would prefer to go after me for normal conquest? Hit me in the source rather than compete for the objective i am going after?

Your points only further convince me that long term planning against your opposing nations is the absolute key to this game.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:43 pm #57859

Snake2512 wrote:I see, so you would prefer to go after me for normal conquest? Hit me in the source rather than compete for the objective i am going after?

Sort of. Dom 4 is very much about understanding what you want and why you want it. The main ways to win are domkill, mid game lockdown, end game supercombo, and early game bless rush. All but domkill generally win by the thrones, but they don't really contest the thrones too much. Sure, take em when you can get them, but when given the choice to build up my collection of gems where every single one is a meaningful increase to my ability to fight and achieve my goals, or given the choice to add to my collection of fancy chairs that only matter once I get all of them, I am going to take the gems.

That means I am going to try to control an area and after my initial explosion of territory just slowly creep about, gain some, lose some, whatever, and focus on finding sites and securing those while also getting more and more momentum as I upgrade my engine with research and fuel it more and more with mages and gems until I steamroll over you and take all of those thrones once I KNOW I will win.

If I am not looking at your armies and seeing 100 undead being spawned a turn at least, I can be pretty sure you are not even close to being ready to win.
Last edited by dezzmont on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:44 pm #57860

Also, what about Sceleria, are they just EA Ermor but with a bunch more Formation Fighters and ability to raise the undead? Or are their mages majorly different in some way?
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Preamble » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:47 pm #57861

You guys are taking this joke too far.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Snake2512 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:47 pm #57862

fuck off nigger, the REAL MEN are talking.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby dezzmont » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:51 pm #57863

Snake2512 wrote:Also, what about Sceleria, are they just EA Ermor but with a bunch more Formation Fighters and ability to raise the undead? Or are their mages majorly different in some way?

They are astral+death without the recruit anywhere fire mage (or ANY fire actually).

This dramatically changes how they play. They depend more on summoned commanders even than Ermor, making conjuration death magic much more important than the massive lines of augmented troops enchantment or alteration gets death, and their astral magic gives them more unusual toys.

Furthermore, because they spam astral mages easily from fortresses, communions are actually feasable for them. In general they play more late game and have much less a focus on undisciplined swarms of evocation mages following hordes of undead, and play better with mages linked into groups casting very large game changing spells. Boosting is harder for them however outside of fights making what is on the pretender much more important, and reduced magical versatility means low hanging fruit is less beneficial because they pick less of it at any given time. So you will often find Sceleria with powerful summoned death champions or very strong summoned death units being supported by high end tactical spells like nightmare and astral geyser designed to distrupt their opponent's important units by horror marking them, slaying them, or enslaving them.

Thamaturgy and Conjuration are the two huge areas of magic that they practice. A good example of a unique tactic would be to use divine name on a normally very powerful and maneuverable death unit that can't lead units on its own, to allow it to lead a group of itself and fly over multiple provinces to distrupt an important magical site for a turn. They often will use long range tactical magic like teleportation or soul imprinting as well to harass you down mid game to try to get that steamroll advantage, and some of the most powerful end game "I fucking win" buttons are astral or death, meaning they can afford to wait things out if a lot of the other factions are humans and not something weird like giants or sea slugs.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:54 pm #57900

Scleria is my favorite faction and youre slightly wrong dezz, grand thaumaturges have a chance to get F1, and I think a very low chance to get F2, but its not something you can count on.

Edit: I was thinking of ermor's dusk elders. You were righ about sclerias not having any fire.
Last edited by Zellion on Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:42 pm #57943

Snake2512 wrote:fuck off nigger, the REAL MEN are talking.


84127920.gif


Sounds like we need to get another game in. Maybe some good vs. evil type shenanigans?
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby ColonicAcid » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:36 pm #57961

Even if you weren't just "I was only trolling guys!!!" I still know you're not the best player and that the majority of regulars in /domg/ could wreck you so hard it would be considered rape.
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:05 pm #57967

Tonight, my niggas. Good vs evil, the final frontier. Sound good to all involved? We still should play tonight. Maybe get a steam group up?

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:07 pm #57970

Talk is cheap. Blood makes a better currency. Let's get this thing rolling.

An0n3 - Abyssia - Demon worshipping lava men
Zellion - Scleria - Roman-esque legions of men
Dezzmont - Pangaea - Druidic nature faction
Snake2512 - Ermor - Spooky Scary Skelerangs
Balut - Ulm - Industrialist men who eschew magic to focus on military might
Preamble - Jomon - Samurai and pals
ColonicAcid - ??? - ???
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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Zellion » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:09 pm #57972

As long as this happens in several hours. Im at work right now. I get out 7 pm EST.

what age tho?

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Re: Dominions 4; Good luck, im behind 7000 supayas!

Postby Balut » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:21 pm #57980

Chaos 3 Luck 3 master race.
"Yeah, they're kick-ass robot pilots!" "But they sing and dance!" "They launch from a secret base..." "...that's right under the opera house!"
Sakura Wars

Spoiler:
Malkevin wrote:
No no, I don't want to be surrounded by spergs

An0n3 wrote:
Why are you here then?

http://sam.wileycomputerworks.com/SS13/

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