[dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

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Tearling
 
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[dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Tearling » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:45 am #601630

Server: Manuel
My Username: tearling
Admin name: dreathtil
Round ID: 163265
Detailed Summary: The situation started when I, playing as a Herald, managed to get on the station. I went ham and killed several people, and was having a grand ol' time murderboning. Dreathtil bwoinked me, asking me if I had a minute, so I hid in maintenance while we chatted. Dreathtil claimed
We don't have any solid policy statements on Herald but general murderboning rules mean a few of your kills haven't been exactly proper.


While I was trying to defend myself (I had to look for a previous ahelp in which I was told murderboning as a lavaland elite is fine, I can provide that ahelp if requested) I was practically defenseless, and to no surprise, i was killed. Dreathtil, after reading on a previous precedent, let me go without any action done. The problem is that no action was done. I wasn't revived, I wasn't teleported to a safe area to defend myself against the bwoink, absolutely nothing was done to allow me to continue the round normally during or after the bwoink was finished. I hope my frustration is justified over my 1 and a half hour lavaland elite round getting ruined by a grey area policy.



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Vekter
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Re: [dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Vekter » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:51 am #601632

Per the roleplay rules (found here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_R ... rboning.3F)

Killing anyone without justification is considered murderboning.


There isn't an exception listed for murderboning when it comes to Lavaland elites and, as far as I'm aware, you shouldn't be going onto the station as an elite at all. That being said, there should be clarification on the matter so it's worth bringing this up one way or another.

Regardless of the rules, you don't get a freebie revive if you die while talking to an admin. The situation was in no way time sensitive and a simple "hang on I'm dying" would have likely been enough for the conversation to be paused.
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Dreathtil
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Re: [dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Dreathtil » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:46 am #601677

Thank you for taking the time to Air out your grievances and for giving your feedback

Just to open things up I did not note you in any capacity and I did give you a solid stance in the scenario that happened as you asked for near the end the end of the ticket.

I can somewhat apologize for not having the foresight to assist you in that regard but due to the sensitivity and grey area of the situation, I was not particularly quick at handling the situation. Your point during the ticket of "Is murderboning not okay with lavaland elites anymore?", had me rechecking several possible areas thinking I had missed a past policy discussion that had concluded since my In-game activity has only recently picked back up to be more consistent, but getting you out was not at the forefront of my mind and for that I admit I am somewhat at fault. I could of asked for additional assistance in this regard from other admins on Discord but I wanted to keep myself focused on the 3 areas I was already checking (Forum, wiki and even the text for Lavaland elites themselves in game) and the thought took a backseat also for which I'm at fault. To keep things quick for you, I decided to end this by looking at the past point an admin made about the murderboning (the previous ticket you had with Positiventropy) and deferred to that in this specific situation aiming for consistency with a decision deciding I would check more thoroughly through policy later potentially starting a thread.

Here is the ticket I had with you taken from Round 163265
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... nd-163265/ - Public logs

Code: Select all
[2021-05-31 23:18:50.416] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Tearling/(herald): So got a moment?
[2021-05-31 23:18:57.764] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Yo
[2021-05-31 23:19:21.510] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Is murderboning not okay with lavaland elites anymore?
[2021-05-31 23:20:46.994] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): hello?
[2021-05-31 23:21:06.760] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Tearling/(herald): I'd like to hear exactly what brings you stationside. Lavaland Roles are in a relatively grey Area when it comes to murderboning. I believe you were given instructions to stay mostly Lavaland side.
[2021-05-31 23:21:41.639] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Was I given instructions to stay lavaland? I thought lavaland elites can do pretty much whatever they want? Am I wrong?
[2021-05-31 23:25:36.898] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Tearling/(herald): It is a perogative to protect the pulsating tumor. You have more liberty if crew escalates on you, but you have done a lot of shooting first, ask questions later now that you are stationside. Mostly getting your side of things. We don't have any solid policy statements on Herald but general murderboning rules mean a few of your kills haven't been exactly proper.
[2021-05-31 23:26:14.237] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): I have been told in the past that murderboning as lavaland elite is okay, want me to go through my past ahelps to find it?
[2021-05-31 23:29:35.252] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Tearling/(herald): For Manuel? I'll take a look through things but based on current round events I'm not going to note you or anything. I'm not 100% up to date on Admin stance on Lavaland Elites For Manuel. only 30%. I hope you can understand this bwoink is mostly cause there were one or two upset parties so I have to step in in some regard. There is no solid policy statements on it.
[2021-05-31 23:30:46.576] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tearling/(herald)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Please make a solid policy stance on it then because I had to stop playing the game to care about this ahelp nonsense, when I was having a perfectly fine time murderboning.
[2021-05-31 23:33:18.668] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Tearling/(herald): Alrighty you are good to go. It's a Yes based on past admin precedent. Hate having to look up unmarked admin discussion.


However as Vekter put it in their previous post (and after my review of the situation) you also didn't particularly give me any prompt that you needed time or assistance to get out of the situation and given how slow I was sifting through information, only really added pressure to speed up my look into the situation.

As well Healing you or making it up to you in the moment for this particular instance, was in my viewpoint not healthy for the round at all and would of just made more people upset as the round had already spiraled towards a shuttle call and round end

I did not mind you getting upset about this apparent ahelp nonsense, as it was understandable you were having fun and the incident ruined it for you.
But I will add now that I'm not allowed to make Solid Policy Stances on this kind of situation as I failed to mention in the ticket, as that is for Headmins to decide following some proper policy discussion

Aside from the details I apologized for at the beginning I do not believe I handled this incident in a particularly bad way or did anything particularly awful.
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Tearling
 
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Re: [dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Tearling » Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 am #601680

There isn't an exception listed for murderboning when it comes to Lavaland elites

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While I completely respect your decision, I have to ask that you make this public policy as several admins have had disagreements and this is what led to the frustration in the first place. I attached an image for reference to why I believed murderboning as a lavaland elite was an exception. Thank you for letting me air my frustration, and I hope you have a nice night.

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Arianya
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Re: [dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Arianya » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:54 am #601693

Tearling wrote:
There isn't an exception listed for murderboning when it comes to Lavaland elites

While I completely respect your decision, I have to ask that you make this public policy as several admins have had disagreements and this is what led to the frustration in the first place. I attached an image for reference to why I believed murderboning as a lavaland elite was an exception. Thank you for letting me air my frustration, and I hope you have a nice night.


Hi, as a point of order - if your main issue is with the lack of clarity on this particular policy, the best course of action is to make a thread in Policy Discussion, as opposed to an Admin Complaint. An Admin Complaint is generally made when you believe an administrator's acted maliciously or negligently in their work, and that they need punishing/correcting.

As a general principle, things without a firm rule are left up to the admin on the scene (our Rule 0) - that said sometimes admins will have conflicting views on these grey areas, and that's when we would generally expect a Policy Discussion to be made for the Head Administrators to make a ruling.
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Coconutwarrior97
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Re: [dreathtil] Tearling - Grey area policy

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:38 pm #603037

Dreath could have moved you to a safer spot during the bwoink if he had thought about it. However not thinking about that while trying to find precedent and discussion around a grey policy area is hardly indicative of improper admin conduct.
The ruling regarding murderboning as a lavaland elite on MRP has been made here: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28712&view=unread#unread. This complaint is not upheld.

Headmin Vote:
Coconutwarrior97: Do not uphold.
Jimmius: Do not uphold.
Naloac: Do not uphold.


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