Greytide as a result of mapchange/extended.

christ110 · Post by **christ110** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:17 pm #297329

Ever since we have made the extended round telegraphed and the introduction of new maps which is not the box-standard, we have suffered a drastic increase in "minor ic crime" aka greytide.
This would be ok, if minor ic crime wasn't something typically wasn't used to escalate conflict to lethal levels, or was something that is too strong for our average shitcurity to handle.
The fact that we have extended as a round type proves that RP still has a place on our station, and we aren't just about minmaxing different depts for the eventual validhunt that comes around eventually. Greytide however goes against RP, and is people being shit for nothing but an ooc reason.
Can our admin team please start being a little more heavy-handed against this very poor behavior
>Inb4 low/norp server.
Ss13 is a role playing game, and although we are very loose with our definition of rp, that doesn't mean that we should just abandon it entirely.

christ110 · Post by **christ110** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:24 pm #297331

Yes, that means that this is a persistent problem that has not been fixed, and is a problem in multiple people's eyes.
Also, note how I specified "people being shit for an ooc reason"

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:29 pm #297332

Just kill them

christ110 · Post by **christ110** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:30 pm #297333

D&B wrote:Just kill them

"This would be ok, if minor ic crime wasn't something typically wasn't used to escalate conflict to lethal levels, or was something that is too strong for our average shitcurity to handle."

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:31 pm #297334

So, i was in the process of making a thread for the exact same thing, then i noticed this thread, So.

"Simply put, I've been playing Captain quite a lot as of late. And i am getting very fed up and sick with the rampant crewmembers breaking into both low-security and high-security places or deciding to "meme" and break everything because they don't like the map that was selected. Some shifts, i have to deal with the entire crew trying to break into the bridge/security repeatedly, warning them to leave repeatedly, and being called a shitter for removing them from the bridge, repeatedly, before finally resorting to have to kill them. Sometimes it's Revs, sometimes it's a Cult, oftentimes, it's just average Greyshirts. I don't know this stuff, all i know is, it's a bad sign and they will jump me if i let them get in. As often times they will when i try to non-lethally remove them after requesting they leave several times, It gets so hectic that i don't find it enjoyable.

Why does it feel like nothing is being done about this, exactly? Nobody ever seems to get punished over it, It's annoying, it feels like a violation of rule 1. I feel the admins should start cracking down on this kind of behavior, it's not creating the kind of conflict i'd enjoy and i'm sure nobody else would in my place, either."

And we can't kill em either, not unless we want to be meta-grudged or insulted by the player-base over it. Which is strange, to say the least. A medical officer can kill someone for refusing to leave their department, that's fine, but Command Staff killing people who keep refusing to leave the bridge = Shit player???

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:32 pm #297335

Short answer: Adminhelp it.

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:33 pm #297336

I did, four times. Guess who responded? Nobody. Shifts were trash and unenjoyable.
I really feel that admins should start doing something about people deciding to grief because of something they don't like. Shouldn't always fall on us to a-help it either, some of this stuff is repetitive and blatant shift by shift.
Hell, if only we had "Ban Requests" for this type of situation.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:08 pm #297344

We know there's a problem with admin coverage, but that is separate from the issue here and likely temporary (it's finals for a lot of people, myself included).

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:57 pm #297350

D&B wrote:Just kill them

A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:05 pm #297354

Why contain it?

Also this is getting old guys.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:05 pm #297355

Pascal125 wrote:I did, four times. Guess who responded? Nobody. Shifts were trash and unenjoyable.
I really feel that admins should start doing something about people deciding to grief because of something they don't like. Shouldn't always fall on us to a-help it either, some of this stuff is repetitive and blatant shift by shift.
Hell, if only we had "Ban Requests" for this type of situation.

Admins are not God. We cannot see everything going on in the round. We can only observe one area of the station at a time, chat logs usually move too fast to keep up with, and we can only see things like someone's attack logs (for instance) if we specifically look for them. Nor can we psychically determine someone's intent. Nor do we have an instant telepathic replay of things that happened in rounds we were not around for. If something does not get ahelped, then most likely the admins do not know about it, because we have no way to.

tl;dr: ahelp your shit

also ahelp it AS IT HAPPENS, not when the round is over and it is 10000% more of a pain in the ass to investigate

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Mon May 22, 2017 11:08 pm #297375

tbh when people greytide I just beat the shit out of them and they normally stop, or if they continue it becomes lethal in the way that, they started this shit so theyre valid to me, but if they kill me theyre removing me from the round for a fight they started. Greytiders will just give you valids if you try to stop them

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:00 am #297389

You can't play nice with people like this. You have to kill them, gulag them, or perma them. The latter will probably end in the shitter's suicide anyway. And for those saying shitter is a memeword: Please tell me how greytiding because you do not like the map is okay. I've never seen an admin have a problem with me doing the above to tiders who act this way no matter what the map. If you do get bwoinked, explain to the admin and the tider will more than likely get banned or noted.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:07 am #297393

Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B

Tell icepacks to fuck off

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:11 am #297397

D&B wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B
Tell icepacks to fuck off

hahahahaha what >icepacks telling you not to kill tiders
thats like me getting admin, watching someone be shitcurity, and bwoinking you when you kill them.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:30 am #297408

bandit wrote:tl;dr: ahelp your shit

also ahelp it AS IT HAPPENS, not when the round is over and it is 10000% more of a pain in the ass to investigate

absolutely this

the odds of me being able to do anything about your situation decreases as time passes, and if the game has moved to the lobby screen and you're ahelping it is far too fucking late

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 1:17 am #297425

D&B wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B
Tell icepacks to fuck off

This, if you tell ice packs to fuck off for defending the tide and he bans you, it'll only get funnier when you appeal it and everyone sees him getting told to fuck off

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 1:38 am #297441

Listen,

Killing them is not working. Rarely does that do more then exacerbate the problem/behavior or turn them into metagrudgers.
A-helping is not working. Sometimes no Admins are on, or nothing gets done and the behavior continues. We don't get a second opinion for these things.
We cannot report the behavior anymore. That possibility was removed.
It shouldn't be a problem players or admins need to deal with. But it doesn't change the fact that it is, and it is detrimental to the community.
It would be better if nobody had to deal with it, there's only one real way to make that happen. Admins need to start cracking down on it, themselves. And if they can't do that, find someone willing to.

Yes, they cannot see everything. But they still see and have access to more knowledge then players do in-game.
You'd be dealing with and know a decent chunk of the bad players to look out for if you spent a couple shifts as Security/Command. Especially on any map but Box/Meta or Extended. I can guarantee it.
The players certainly cannot fix this through violence. Not without running the risk of being banned or harassed over it. They try to follow the rules, and don't want trouble. But they have the poor issue of trying to do so against people who neglect it or don't care, yet still get away.

Nowadays, the community is terrible, some things need to be done. People have and are losing interest, i feel that this is clearly evident, and has been for some time.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Tue May 23, 2017 1:57 am #297447

Nothing wrong with cremating them. If you feel they're metagrudging you collect pictures and use them in your eventual appeal.

Admins have been clear in that this is not something they can fix easily. In fact I'd argue to some point they don't care much about it, even if we get moaning threads every week.

If they want ic issues, give them the ic issues

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:23 am #297452

Nilons wrote:
D&B wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B
Tell icepacks to fuck off
This, if you tell ice packs to fuck off for defending the tide and he bans you, it'll only get funnier when you appeal it and everyone sees him getting told to fuck off

Open admin complaints

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:30 am #297454

Pascal125 wrote:Killing them is not working. Rarely does that do more then exacerbate the problem/behavior or turn them into metagrudgers.

If they kill you because they start shit, they'll get banned, if they metagrudge you, they'll get banned. This has nothing to do with greytide.

Pascal125 wrote:A-helping is not working. Sometimes no Admins are on, or nothing gets done and the behavior continues. We don't get a second opinion for these things.

This is not a greytide issue, it's an admin issue. If the behavior continues its because an admin decided its not harmful, which is theirs to decide

Pascal125 wrote:We cannot report the behavior anymore. That possibility was removed.

This is not a greytide issue, it's an administration issue, ahelps go to the irc and im fairly sure they're logged in there, as well as pming an admin on the forums can prove to help get people banned if theyre giving you trouble. If you feel like opening a policy thread advocating for ban requests to reopen I'm sure you'll be met with supporters, I can think of at least 3 prolific posters who would also like to see it come back.

Pascal125 wrote:It shouldn't be a problem players or admins need to deal with. But it doesn't change the fact that it is, and it is detrimental to the community.

It is a problem for some players and some admins, certain players like to greytide, certain admins think it adds to the round and are entitled to think that.

Pascal125 wrote:It would be better if nobody had to deal with it, there's only one real way to make that happen. Admins need to start cracking down on it, themselves. And if they can't do that, find someone willing to.

>It would be better if no one had to deal with it, so lets make the admins deal with it. And it's not as easy as "finding someone willing to" that is also trustworthy enough to hold ban power.
Also take into account that what you decide is better for the server may not be better, although your opinions are valued and discussion is to be had its not your place to decide whats better for the whole server.

Pascal125 wrote:Yes, they cannot see everything. But they still see and have access to more knowledge then players do in-game.
You'd be dealing with and know a decent chunk of the bad players to look out for if you spent a couple shifts as Security/Command. Especially on any map but Box/Meta or Extended. I can guarantee it.
The players certainly cannot fix this through violence. Not without running the risk of being banned or harassed over it. They try to follow the rules, and don't want trouble. But they have the poor issue of trying to do so against people who neglect it or don't care, yet still get away.

What you're looking for is a medium rp serious business server friend.

Pascal125 wrote:Nowadays, the community is terrible, some things need to be done. People have and are losing interest, i feel that this is clearly evident, and has been for some time.

If you don't like the community, why are you posting.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:01 am #297460

Look, we know about the admin coverage issue. We're doing what we can on our end to fix it. As far as ban requests I suggest making that an issue in the next headmin election.

EDIT: Also which ahelps get answered in IRC depends HEAVILY on the amount of context you give. "Was that valid?" is bad enough in game, but in IRC there is literally nothing to go on.

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 am #297476

Nilons wrote: If they kill you because they start shit, they'll get banned, if they metagrudge you, they'll get banned. This has nothing to do with minor IC crime.

This thread appears to be about addressing much more then "Minor IC Crime", given that the nature of things tend to correlate with one another.
And if that happens to be the case, it feels odd that it doesn't seem to happen that way. Speaking from experience, here.

Nilons wrote:This is not a minor IC crime issue, it's an admin issue. If the behavior continues its because an admin decided its not harmful, which is theirs to decide

While that notion does seem fair. Sometimes, they're wrong. Or, people feel things should change. That's what part of what policy discussion is about.

Nilons wrote:This is not a minor IC crime issue, it's an administration issue, ahelps go to the irc and im fairly sure they're logged in there, as well as pming an admin on the forums can prove to help get people banned if theyre giving you trouble. If you feel like opening a policy thread advocating for ban requests to reopen I'm sure you'll be met with supporters, I can think of at least 3 prolific posters who would also like to see it come back.

I do feel it may help the situation if reinstated. And never understood the reasoning behind it's removal, being that it was simply something admins could undertake as a benevolent act on their free time. Much like admining in general. I'd say it had it's uses. But that is likely a thing for another thread, yes.

Nilons wrote:It is a problem for some players and some admins, certain players like to minor IC crime, certain admins think it adds to the round and are entitled to think that.

Another fair opinion. But is it truly acceptable, when at the expense of another's enjoyment? Lots of threads are coming up, and i know many people are becoming jaded or frustrated over it. It is an issue that can and, in my opinion? Should, be avoided. What benefit do we, as a community, gain from driving these players away?

Nilons wrote:>It would be better if no one had to deal with it, so lets make the admins deal with it. And it's not as easy as "finding someone willing to" that is also trustworthy enough to hold ban power.
Also take into account that what you decide is better for the server may not be better, although your opinions are valued and discussion is to be had its not your place to decide whats better for the whole server.

More fair points, It certainly wouldn't be easy, but it is doable. I could say that from my perspective, there are better alternatives then some admins already. And if they don't wanna handle their position and make the server/community a better/more enjoyable place for everyone, what's the point of being one? But i'm sure they pull their weight and try in their own ways, They just need more direction.

These admins basically signed up to admin, They're the first line of defense, and the ones with the power to do something. who else is supposed to do it? Why should the players be the ones dealing with the issue?

Nilons wrote:What you're looking for is a medium rp serious business server friend.

These sort of statements are not really contributing to the topic or discussion, and you know that.

Nilons wrote:If you don't like the community, why are you posting.

Because i like this place, It's nothing like it used to be, but that doesn't mean it can't be. And i happen to want this community to change. And i know it definitely won't if we continue to twiddle our thumbs and keep silent. That isn't to say that it might not even if we're bothering to post or try to get things fixed, either. But at-least we can say we tried.

bandit wrote:Look, we know about the admin coverage issue. We're doing what we can on our end to fix it. As far as ban requests I suggest making that an issue in the next headmin election.

Somehow, i'm not all that convinced that merely fixing a coverage issue will make all these problems go away. But, it is good to know this, and i do hope it does wind up improving things.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:01 am #297507

Pascal125 wrote:This thread appears to be about addressing much more then "Minor IC Crime", given that the nature of things tend to correlate with one another.
And if that happens to be the case, it feels odd that it doesn't seem to happen that way. Speaking from experience, here.

What this thread is amounting to is "People are breaking the rules and being mean to me and I want you to ban everyone even remotely involved with them." Even though the initial rule breakers do get banned

Pascal125 wrote:Another fair opinion. But is it truly acceptable, when at the expense of another's enjoyment? Lots of threads are coming up, and i know many people are becoming jaded or frustrated over it. It is an issue that can and, in my opinion? Should, be avoided. What benefit do we, as a community, gain from driving these players away?

Unfortunately tgstation is not a small group of friends playing it with the expectation that everyone is going to enter and exit the game happy. No matter what you do in this game you are going to make someone have less fun at some point in the round, with the exception of precious few, very good rounds. We can't force the responsibility of other player's fun onto people to the extent you're suggesting. If you cut down on greytiding because it ruins other people's fun, are you not just as bad for cutting down on greytiders fun? If the argument is made that they can find a different server, it can be made inverted, with the added fact that there are plenty of servers that punish greytiding how you've described, but precious few who welcome it. Especially when greytiding is normally punished with being removed from the round by other players, and if a greytider does remove you from the round then they're the ones who get banned. Why are we so hell bent on punishing players who create organic conflict without a card that says they can kill people, we should be lauding them for making the round more interesting than waiting for your valids to come knocking or your greentext to pop up. If you ban people who break windows then people are bound to figure out the only people breaking windows are antagonists, you cannot have a mystery whodunnit where it's as easy to meta who is valid or not without more robust rules regarding how you get information and what you know going into the round, as in medium-highRP.

Pascal125 wrote:More fair points, It certainly wouldn't be easy, but it is doable. I could say that from my perspective, there are better alternatives then some admins already. And if they don't wanna handle their position and make the server/community a better/more enjoyable place for everyone, what's the point of being one? But i'm sure they pull their weight and try in their own ways, They just need more direction.

These admins basically signed up to admin, They're the first line of defense, and the ones with the power to do something. who else is supposed to do it? Why should the players be the ones dealing with the issue?

I'm not saying admins shouldn't do their job, I'm saying that it will never be no one dealing with it. If its decided that greytiding is a problem, its not going to be as simple as everyone just stops, it's going to be followed by an avalanche of policy threads about line toeing and what is minor ic crime and what is bannable greytiding. This isnt a major problem to be honest though because as stated, its the admins jobs. However making broad statements like "it shouldn't be admins, or players problem to deal with" solves nothing, because it is going to be one of their problems. Although I strongly agree that admins lack direction from what I can see as a player, I wish headmins had more weight to throw and a better way to direct the server, i'll give you that head on. The conversation that I'm seeing being had here is not, should admins do their job, it's, should banning grey shitters be in their job description. If you're dissatisfied with admins I encourage you to make a complaint. To discard admins who don't agree with one policy change they don't want to enforce because it goes against their view of where the game should progress doesn't mean they're shitty admins, it means the policy change isn't worth it. Admins deserve to be able to put their foot down on policy at least once, and even then they rarely do, normally opting to enforce policy they don't agree with at the behest of a headmin because they're not dickhead losers who take their ball and go home. On the subject of why should players be the ones dealing with the issue, the game is about conflict, it's players jobs to deal with traitors, and lings, and nuke ops, just like it's players job to deal with greytiders. It provides something to do besides validhunt for sec, which is a value in and of itself and an integral part of the way sec is designed. If there were no greytide why not just start with 3 deathsquads instead of a security department, because anyone doing anything outside of their designated job that could be construed as minor IC crime is obviously either an antag or soon to be banned.

Pascal125 wrote:These sort of statements are not really contributing to the topic or discussion, and you know that.

I didn't mean it in a "our way or the highway" sort of fashion, I meant that medium RP servers will have a lot more stringent policy on justifying character actions, whereas what this community has put themselves on the path of is much more lowrp, allowing for ooc driven actions. Instead of "I broke that grille because I thought it would be funny" medium RP servers will generally expect something to the tune of "I broke it because I wanted what was on the other side of the grille for a goal I'm following/other strictly IC driven actions or chains of thought. What you're pushing for has been talked and talked to death on these forums as well, and other policy threads have been based firmly on the allowance of greytiding, meaning that there would be a cascade of policy changes necessary if it was disallowed.

Pascal125 wrote:Because i like this place, It's nothing like it used to be, but that doesn't mean it can't be. And i happen to want this community to change. And i know it definitely won't if we continue to twiddle our thumbs and keep silent. That isn't to say that it might not even if we're bothering to post or try to get things fixed, either. But at-least we can say we tried.

In one post you say the community is terrible, that people are losing interest, in another you say you like this place. I'm sorry that you dislike the forums in their current form but you'll be hard pressed to find many sympathizers who wanna flip it on its head just because you don't like it anymore without giving actual objective reasons it's of lower quality. You come in here swinging fists saying the community is shit and the admins aren't doing anything, where were you when the changes you dislike so much were being made? Why didn't you object then, frequent policy and trialmin reviews, or if you did, why did no one listen? In your opinion the forums need to be fixed, but to what form or iteration would you have them restored? Is there a specific time period you have nostalgia for that you think the server and forums were in a better state then they are now? What about the people who like the forums currently? Should they all go get fucked because you miss the glory days?

All in all if you stop greytiding from happening then the only thing to break the monotony in a round is rping with other players, which I strongly support, but it's not what this servers community is pushing towards. Coupled with the fact that it will shake the foundation of other policy. Also stop inadvertently trying to start a coup against the admemes svp. Enjoy my autism wall of text/novel. TL;DR read it if you care dont if you dont

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:07 am #297513

yo word up heard you nigs like autism walls

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Tue May 23, 2017 7:29 am #297524

What exactly do you have to do as sec in extended? Greytiders give you a reason to play the round. You should be thankful

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:19 am #297530

I am glad the telegraphed extended rounds always escalate, because otherwise they would be boring as hell.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 23, 2017 9:47 am #297536

>he doesn't know how to rp properly

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:26 pm #297604

bandit wrote:Look, we know about the admin coverage issue. We're doing what we can on our end to fix it. As far as ban requests I suggest making that an issue in the next headmin election.

EDIT: Also which ahelps get answered in IRC depends HEAVILY on the amount of context you give. "Was that valid?" is bad enough in game, but in IRC there is literally nothing to go on.

Just want to chime in and say that the vast majority of admins do not like ban requests and it's an uphill battle for anyone that wants them back

Also bandit continues to speal gospel with the edits because theee has never ever been a situation where I had any clue what someone was talking about when they asked if X was valid

We MIGHT be orbiting an antag, but often we're alttabbed/dealing with ahelps/etc. and rhe chat log goes by at warpspeed even as a normal ghost - admins get a bunch of spam about explosions/shit like flamethrowers/etc. so we're not going to see you die in 99% of the time

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:04 pm #297613

It's okay that it escalates.
It's bad that it escalates instantly.

Just had a shift where these three well-known science staff "Shitters" decided to raid and attack Security/Brig as a group with All-Access, Shadowshrooms, Stunbatons/Spam disarms and Slippery fruit after building an Autocloner to ensure they cannot be removed for their behavior. All that was missing this time, was the spam recalling. They had kidnapped me to remove my eyes and brain and generally taunt me ICly about it. I was the acting HoS.

It was Extended. And yes, it was A-Helped.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:11 pm #297617

Give me a reason to remove you from the round and I will.

I do not ask of much from the crew;

Treat others as you wish to be treated.

Do not complain it is unfair when it is you that deliberately starts it.

I am also going to bring into the fact and the irony that you ran with a metagang, pascal, and caused trouble because you would involve your buddies and thought because of this you had a right to mess and stand on others.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:21 pm #297619

Pascal125 wrote:Listen,

Killing them is not working. Rarely does that do more then exacerbate the problem/behavior or turn them into metagrudgers.
A-helping is not working. Sometimes no Admins are on, or nothing gets done and the behavior continues. We don't get a second opinion for these things.

While both of these are true, sadly, killing them is the best solution ICly and then adminhelping. If the problem persists across multiple rounds, I'd take down logs and screenshots and send them to headmins- I've done this and they were great about handling it. Killing them is in no way a permanent solution but it usually takes them out of the round which is usually the point. For the admins thing, I feel like we need more active admins- I don't know about sybil but I usually see the same few admins on regularly on a day-to-day basis on bagil. I understand real life takes priority, etc, that's why I suggest we get more admins that can deal with this stuff. Once you adminhelp the person I'm sure it gets dealt with effectively, but the admins have to be there to respond to the adminhelps.

tldr: admins need to start cracking down on this shit or get more admins that can be online more often to crack down on it.

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:21 pm #297620

J_Mad,

On one hand, you hit the nail right on the head, but, they shouldn't be doing this at all. It's not really enjoyable when they do these things. They tend to be "Robust" "Metagamers" fighting unprepared people just trying to enjoy their game-play, it tends to be completely unsolicited and stressful and is likely the cause of Security/Command staff deficits. Antags doing that is enough as is, being that generally one third of the crew happen to be antags. But on the other hand,

i have no idea what you're talking about. Meta-gangs have always been something i viewed as unfair. I was just a known popular player and talked with an entire server ICly, still do. i don't see how being social over remaining silent and unknown to everyone is bad. Admins, feel free to check me for this behavior if you desire.

Me actually siding with people in the shift against troublesome players or as a result of a troublesome situation has nothing to do with meta-ganging. It's just how things work. Sometimes, you do things and people side against you. Most likely because they are convinced or have had similar experiences with you. Take a Captain demoting Security due to an Assistant complaining over their behavior, for instance. It does not always happen, but sometimes it does. Does that make them Metagangers? I don't think so.

In severely bad and clear-cut cases, they side against you for existing the moment the shift starts, often wordlessly.
There is a difference, and i think you need to learn it if you want admins to start taking you seriously on these things. But that's irrelevant to this thread, so let's leave it at that, and save the ad-homs for another time, no?

EvilJackCarver · Tue May 23, 2017 4:14 pm

At this point you might as well just remove Rule 1; it's not like it gets enforced.

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:38 pm #297636

Nilons wrote:Unfortunately tgstation is not a small group of friends playing it with the expectation that everyone is going to enter and exit the game happy. No matter what you do in this game you are going to make someone have less fun at some point in the round, with the exception of precious few, very good rounds. We can't force the responsibility of other player's fun onto people to the extent you're suggesting. If you cut down on committing minor IC crimes because it ruins other people's fun, are you not just as bad for cutting down on greytiders fun? If the argument is made that they can find a different server, it can be made inverted, with the added fact that there are plenty of servers that punish committing minor IC crimes how you've described, but precious few who welcome it. Especially when committing minor IC crimes is normally punished with being removed from the round by other players, and if a greytider does remove you from the round then they're the ones who get banned. Why are we so hell bent on punishing players who create organic conflict without a card that says they can kill people, we should be lauding them for making the round more interesting than waiting for your valids to come knocking or your greentext to pop up. If you ban people who break windows then people are bound to figure out the only people breaking windows are antagonists, you cannot have a mystery whodunnit where it's as easy to meta who is valid or not without more robust rules regarding how you get information and what you know going into the round, as in medium-highRP.

That may be true, but it doesn't have to be for things to change. I don't see the problem with forcing them to cut back on the IC Crime when it is clearly negatively impacting the community and their enjoyment of the game. Greytiders can find fun in other ways, there are other ways that don't break the rules, or involve trying to kill people. I'm not saying greytiding is inherently bad, sometimes it can be interesting, but it is often very prone to frustrating players or turning into meta-grudging. And, if left unpunished/unwarned it becomes consistent. These are not things we as a community should be encouraging or pushing towards. Valids, Conflict, Greentext, why should these be all we care about? There are other things to do. Conflict can be interesting, but sometimes people want a break. They shouldn't have to consistently deal with it every shift and run the possibility of being removed from the shift or lynch-mobbed. People take it too far, nowadays. We shouldn't be praising them for pushing people away.

We shouldn't start banning people for breaking every window. But something needs to be done about people consistently being a detriment. They're not exactly difficult to spot.
It's getting too extreme, when they consistently Greytide or break into places to get into fights with Security/Command/Staff. Especially during legitimate emergencies.

Nilons wrote:I'm not saying admins shouldn't do their job, I'm saying that it will never be no one dealing with it. If its decided that committing minor IC crimes is a problem, its not going to be as simple as everyone just stops, it's going to be followed by an avalanche of policy threads about line toeing and what is minor ic crime and what is bannable committing minor IC crimes. This isnt a major problem to be honest though because as stated, its the admins jobs. However making broad statements like "it shouldn't be admins, or players problem to deal with" solves nothing, because it is going to be one of their problems. Although I strongly agree that admins lack direction from what I can see as a player, I wish headmins had more weight to throw and a better way to direct the server, i'll give you that head on. The conversation that I'm seeing being had here is not, should admins do their job, it's, should banning grey imperfect people playing an imperfect game be in their job description. If you're dissatisfied with admins I encourage you to make a complaint. To discard admins who don't agree with one policy change they don't want to enforce because it goes against their view of where the game should progress doesn't mean they're shitty admins, it means the policy change isn't worth it. Admins deserve to be able to put their foot down on policy at least once, and even then they rarely do, normally opting to enforce policy they don't agree with at the behest of a headmin because they're not dickhead losers who take their ball and go home. On the subject of why should players be the ones dealing with the issue, the game is about conflict, it's players jobs to deal with traitors, and lings, and nuke ops, just like it's players job to deal with greytiders. It provides something to do besides validhunt for sec, which is a value in and of itself and an integral part of the way sec is designed. If there were no minor IC crime why not just start with 3 deathsquads instead of a security department, because anyone doing anything outside of their designated job that could be construed as minor IC crime is obviously either an antag or soon to be banned.

Ofcourse, but the behavior is being encouraged and has been increasingly becoming more problematic. I don't see an avalanche of policy threads over line-toeing and what is bannable greytide being the result. It's pretty simple, and basically already covered under TG's Rules, specifically rule one. But even then, i don't see anything wrong with taking a step forward in trying to improve the servers/community. Sometimes, these things are necessary. We shouldn't be trying to avoid it. I feel i've said this many times, but. Yes, this game is about conflict, but there are limits to these things. Sometimes it is unnecessary and detrimental. Sometimes, it's done due to metagrudgers, sometimes, it's metafriending. Often times, It's done to be a dick. Not create conflict for "Enjoyment". I happen to play this game with all my Antag preferences off and never greytide or try to "create conflict" by killing people unsolocited. This is how i've been playing for a long time. I realize i may be one in a hundred, but i know there are like-minded players here, too. I play Security and i play Command, yes. They are there to handle greytide and conflict. But it gets extremely tiresome when you wind up having to deal with more Non-Antags then Antags, and they continue repeat offending until they manage to kill you.

I'm not trying to promote Med-HighRP, here. I've said and am saying, something needs to be done about these people. Why punish those who try to abide by the rules and encourage those who refuse to. They create "Conflict" is not a good reason.

Nilons wrote:I didn't mean it in a "our way or the highway" sort of fashion, I meant that medium RP servers will have a lot more stringent policy on justifying character actions, whereas what this community has put themselves on the path of is much more lowrp, allowing for ooc driven actions. Instead of "I broke that grille because I thought it would be funny" medium RP servers will generally expect something to the tune of "I broke it because I wanted what was on the other side of the grille for a goal I'm following/other strictly IC driven actions or chains of thought. What you're pushing for has been talked and talked to death on these forums as well, and other policy threads have been based firmly on the allowance of committing minor IC crimes, meaning that there would be a cascade of policy changes necessary if it was disallowed.

Last i'd heard, this community was Low-Med RP. I'm not saying we need to start questioning everyone's actions and banning them for failing to justify it. Again, I'm saying we need to start cracking down on repetitive, consistent hostile behavior. It's gone too far. And it overlaps so many issues. Greytiding is often tying in with Metagrudging/Metafriending. They're being dicks to be dicks at the expense of everyone else on the server. Not trying to "Create Enjoyable Conflict".

Nilons wrote:In one post you say the community is terrible, that people are losing interest, in another you say you like this place. I'm sorry that you dislike the forums in their current form but you'll be hard pressed to find many sympathizers who wanna flip it on its head just because you don't like it anymore without giving actual objective reasons it's of lower quality. You come in here swinging fists saying the community is shit and the admins aren't doing anything, where were you when the changes you dislike so much were being made? Why didn't you object then, frequent policy and trialmin reviews, or if you did, why did no one listen? In your opinion the forums need to be fixed, but to what form or iteration would you have them restored? Is there a specific time period you have nostalgia for that you think the server and forums were in a better state then they are now? What about the people who like the forums currently? Should they all go get fucked because you miss the glory days?

In my opinion, the community was once good, now it's less good. People are in-fact losing interest, as is evidenced by the threads popping up and admins quitting. I do like this place, this is the server i'd played on for a long time, and this is where i enjoyed playing. I'm not talking about the forums, here. And if you want the truth? I left and played in other servers. Much like everyone else did, i eventually left. But i'm back now. Some are back now. And at this point there's nothing else to do but this.

Ofcourse i don't think people should go "Get fucked because i miss the glory days". I don't know what gave you that idea. I think people should go get fucked if they're needlessly being dicks and pushing people away. Why should people go get fucked because they want change or to not have to deal with these players?

Nilons wrote:All in all if you stop committing minor IC crimes from happening then the only thing to break the monotony in a round is rping with other players, which I strongly support, but it's not what this servers community is pushing towards. Coupled with the fact that it will shake the foundation of other policy. Also stop inadvertently trying to start a coup against the admemes svp. Enjoy my autism wall of text/novel. TL;DR read it if you care dont if you dont

Again, it may not be. But i don't see the issue with encouraging communication and interaction over validhunting and robusting/trying to piss off your fellow crewmembers, here. I don't think clicking a sprite untill it turns sideways, should be all the gameplay we get.

I don't think you would find it enjoyable to have to deal with people hunting you shift after shift because you stomped their grey-tiding business one shift. Nor would you find it enjoyable to have to deal with the same consistent people doing the same boring consistent thing shift after shift, and not being able to act on it for fear of meta-grudge/meta-knowledge. It's like knowing exactly what's going on, but not being able to do anything until it inevitably kills you. By then it's too late, and nothing is more infuriating then when it's by some greytider "creating conflict" for "fun" during emergencies or times of duress.

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:49 pm #297644

Pascal125 wrote:
Nilons wrote:Unfortunately tgstation is not a small group of friends playing it with the expectation that everyone is going to enter and exit the game happy. No matter what you do in this game you are going to make someone have less fun at some point in the round, with the exception of precious few, very good rounds. We can't force the responsibility of other player's fun onto people to the extent you're suggesting. If you cut down on committing minor IC crimes because it ruins other people's fun, are you not just as bad for cutting down on greytiders fun? If the argument is made that they can find a different server, it can be made inverted, with the added fact that there are plenty of servers that punish committing minor IC crimes how you've described, but precious few who welcome it. Especially when committing minor IC crimes is normally punished with being removed from the round by other players, and if a greytider does remove you from the round then they're the ones who get banned. Why are we so hell bent on punishing players who create organic conflict without a card that says they can kill people, we should be lauding them for making the round more interesting than waiting for your valids to come knocking or your greentext to pop up. If you ban people who break windows then people are bound to figure out the only people breaking windows are antagonists, you cannot have a mystery whodunnit where it's as easy to meta who is valid or not without more robust rules regarding how you get information and what you know going into the round, as in medium-highRP.
That may be true, but it doesn't have to be for things to change. I don't see the problem with forcing them to cut back on the IC Crime when it is clearly negatively impacting the community and their enjoyment of the game. Greytiders can find fun in other ways, there are other ways that don't break the rules, or involve trying to kill people. I'm not saying committing minor IC crimes is inherently bad, sometimes it can be interesting, but it is often very prone to frustrating players or turning into meta-grudging. And, if left unpunished/unwarned it becomes consistent. These are not things we as a community should be encouraging or pushing towards. Valids, Conflict, Greentext, why should these be all we care about? There are other things to do. Conflict can be interesting, but sometimes people want a break. They shouldn't have to consistently deal with it every shift and run the possibility of being removed from the shift or lynch-mobbed. People take it too far, nowadays. We shouldn't be praising them for pushing people away.

We shouldn't start banning people for breaking every window. But something needs to be done about people consistently being a detriment. They're not exactly difficult to spot.
It's getting too extreme, when they consistently minor IC crime or break into places to get into fights with Security/Command/Staff. Especially during legitimate emergencies.

Nilons wrote:I'm not saying admins shouldn't do their job, I'm saying that it will never be no one dealing with it. If its decided that committing minor IC crimes is a problem, its not going to be as simple as everyone just stops, it's going to be followed by an avalanche of policy threads about line toeing and what is minor ic crime and what is bannable committing minor IC crimes. This isnt a major problem to be honest though because as stated, its the admins jobs. However making broad statements like "it shouldn't be admins, or players problem to deal with" solves nothing, because it is going to be one of their problems. Although I strongly agree that admins lack direction from what I can see as a player, I wish headmins had more weight to throw and a better way to direct the server, i'll give you that head on. The conversation that I'm seeing being had here is not, should admins do their job, it's, should banning grey imperfect people playing an imperfect game be in their job description. If you're dissatisfied with admins I encourage you to make a complaint. To discard admins who don't agree with one policy change they don't want to enforce because it goes against their view of where the game should progress doesn't mean they're shitty admins, it means the policy change isn't worth it. Admins deserve to be able to put their foot down on policy at least once, and even then they rarely do, normally opting to enforce policy they don't agree with at the behest of a headmin because they're not dickhead losers who take their ball and go home. On the subject of why should players be the ones dealing with the issue, the game is about conflict, it's players jobs to deal with traitors, and lings, and nuke ops, just like it's players job to deal with greytiders. It provides something to do besides validhunt for sec, which is a value in and of itself and an integral part of the way sec is designed. If there were no minor IC crime why not just start with 3 deathsquads instead of a security department, because anyone doing anything outside of their designated job that could be construed as minor IC crime is obviously either an antag or soon to be banned.
Ofcourse, but the behavior is being encouraged and has been increasingly becoming more problematic. I don't see an avalanche of policy threads over line-toeing and what is bannable minor IC crime being the result. It's pretty simple, and basically already covered under TG's Rules, specifically rule one. But even then, i don't see anything wrong with taking a step forward in trying to improve the servers/community. Sometimes, these things are necessary. We shouldn't be trying to avoid it. I feel i've said this many times, but. Yes, this game is about conflict, but there are limits to these things. Sometimes it is unnecessary and detrimental. Sometimes, it's done due to metagrudgers, sometimes, it's metafriending. Often times, It's done to be a dick. Not create conflict for "Enjoyment". I happen to play this game with all my Antag preferences off and never minor IC crime or try to "create conflict" by killing people unsolocited. This is how i've been playing for a long time. I realize i may be one in a hundred, but i know there are like-minded players here, too. I play Security and i play Command, yes. They are there to handle minor IC crime and conflict. But it gets extremely tiresome when you wind up having to deal with more Non-Antags then Antags, and they continue repeat offending until they manage to kill you.

I'm not trying to promote Med-HighRP, here. I've said and am saying, something needs to be done about these people. Why punish those who try to abide by the rules and encourage those who refuse to. They create "Conflict" is not a good reason.

Nilons wrote:I didn't mean it in a "our way or the highway" sort of fashion, I meant that medium RP servers will have a lot more stringent policy on justifying character actions, whereas what this community has put themselves on the path of is much more lowrp, allowing for ooc driven actions. Instead of "I broke that grille because I thought it would be funny" medium RP servers will generally expect something to the tune of "I broke it because I wanted what was on the other side of the grille for a goal I'm following/other strictly IC driven actions or chains of thought. What you're pushing for has been talked and talked to death on these forums as well, and other policy threads have been based firmly on the allowance of committing minor IC crimes, meaning that there would be a cascade of policy changes necessary if it was disallowed.
Last i'd heard, this community was Low-Med RP. I'm not saying we need to start questioning everyone's actions and banning them for failing to justify it. Again, I'm saying we need to start cracking down on repetitive, consistent hostile behavior. It's gone too far. And it overlaps so many issues. committing minor IC crimes is often tying in with Metagrudging/Metafriending. They're being dicks to be dicks at the expense of everyone else on the server. Not trying to "Create Enjoyable Conflict".

Nilons wrote:In one post you say the community is terrible, that people are losing interest, in another you say you like this place. I'm sorry that you dislike the forums in their current form but you'll be hard pressed to find many sympathizers who wanna flip it on its head just because you don't like it anymore without giving actual objective reasons it's of lower quality. You come in here swinging fists saying the community is shit and the admins aren't doing anything, where were you when the changes you dislike so much were being made? Why didn't you object then, frequent policy and trialmin reviews, or if you did, why did no one listen? In your opinion the forums need to be fixed, but to what form or iteration would you have them restored? Is there a specific time period you have nostalgia for that you think the server and forums were in a better state then they are now? What about the people who like the forums currently? Should they all go get fucked because you miss the glory days?
In my opinion, the community was once good, now it's less good. People are in-fact losing interest, as is evidenced by the threads popping up and admins quitting. I do like this place, this is the server i'd played on for a long time, and this is where i enjoyed playing. I'm not talking about the forums, here. And if you want the truth? I left and played in other servers. Much like everyone else did, i eventually left. But i'm back now. Some are back now. And at this point there's nothing else to do but this.

Ofcourse i don't think people should go "Get fucked because i miss the glory days". I don't know what gave you that idea. I think people should go get fucked if they're needlessly being dicks and pushing people away. Why should people go get fucked because they want change or to not have to deal with these players?

Nilons wrote:All in all if you stop committing minor IC crimes from happening then the only thing to break the monotony in a round is rping with other players, which I strongly support, but it's not what this servers community is pushing towards. Coupled with the fact that it will shake the foundation of other policy. Also stop inadvertently trying to start a coup against the admemes svp. Enjoy my autism wall of text/novel. TL;DR read it if you care dont if you dont
Again, it may not be. But i don't see the issue with encouraging communication and interaction over validhunting and robusting/trying to piss off your fellow crewmembers, here. I don't think clicking a sprite untill it turns sideways, should be all the gameplay we get.

I don't think you would find it enjoyable to have to deal with people hunting you shift after shift because you stomped their grey-tiding business one shift. Nor would you find it enjoyable to have to deal with the same consistent people doing the same boring consistent thing shift after shift, and not being able to act on it for fear of meta-grudge/meta-knowledge. It's like knowing exactly what's going on, but not being able to do anything until it inevitably kills you. By then it's too late, and nothing is more infuriating then when it's by some greytider "creating conflict" for "fun" during emergencies or times of duress.

tl;dr please

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 5:08 pm #297659

Armhulen wrote:
Pascal125 wrote:-Snip-
tl;dr please

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:33 pm #297708

Pascal125 wrote: it is clearly negatively impacting the community and their enjoyment of the game.

Pascal125 wrote:i don't see anything wrong with taking a step forward in trying to improve the servers/community.

Pascal125 wrote:this community was Low-Med RP.

Pascal125 wrote:In my opinion, the community was once good, now it's less good.

You are not the community, your opinions do not represent the whole of the community, and are therein not a valid argument why people should agree with you. What you arbitrarily decide is "clearly" wrong is not representative of what probably any other player thinks is "clearly" wrong.

Pascal125 wrote:Greytiders can find fun in other ways, there are other ways that don't break the rules, or involve trying to kill people.

Pascal125 wrote:I'm not saying greytiding is inherently bad

Pascal125 wrote:Greytiding is often tying in with Metagrudging/Metafriending.

Pascal125 wrote:Why punish those who try to abide by the rules and encourage those who refuse to. They create "Conflict" is not a good reason.

They're not breaking the rules, they're breaking rules you're trying to create with this thread. You are saying greytiding is inherently bad, you made a policy thread advocating for people who participate in it to be banned. While lumping anyone who greytides together with metagrudgers and metafrienders, putting them on the same level. If the creation of conflict is not a good reason for people to do things, I would start with removing antags, not greytide.

Pascal125 wrote:They shouldn't have to consistently deal with it every shift and run the possibility of being removed from the shift or lynch-mobbed.

Pascal125 wrote:But something needs to be done about people consistently being a detriment.

Pascal125 wrote:and they continue repeat offending until they manage to kill you.

Pascal125 wrote:I don't think you would find it enjoyable to have to deal with people hunting you shift after shift because you stomped their grey-tiding business one shift.

All bannable offenses, metagrudging is against the rules, consistent toe lining is against the rules with few exceptions (repukan), if a greytider is targeting you every round it should be trivial for an admin to investigate it and ban him.

Pascal125 wrote: but the behavior is being encouraged and has been increasingly becoming more problematic. I don't see an avalanche of policy threads over line-toeing and what is bannable greytide being the result. It's pretty simple, and basically already covered under TG's Rules, specifically rule one.

"Problematic" in what objective way? Just because you decided that you don't think policy threads will happen doesn't discredit any of the logic or reasoning I gave that it would. Rule one is a subjective rule, poorly worded and desperately in need of change due to that fact. If everyone who was ever a dick in game was banned half the admin team would be perma'd as would most of the people posting in this thread, not everyone's perfect. Everyone is a dick at least sometimes to someone.

Edit: Half the people in this thread have said, myself included, when someone greytides, they just fucking kill them and take them out of the round. In what way is it encouraging someone to greytide by telling them they're rounds gonna be extra short if they do it.

Pascal125 wrote:I realize i may be one in a hundred

You realize you're a very specific player playing a very specific playstyle, one in a hundred as you've said, yet you're still pushing that everyone should play in a manner similar to you, and that other playstyles are inherently wrong.

Pascal125 wrote:I think people should go get fucked if they're needlessly being dicks and pushing people away. Why should people go get fucked because they want change or to not have to deal with these players?

It's not "needless", its for their enjoyment, which albeit is not a very cool thing, it's how they have fun with the game. If it's wrong for them to deny you of your fun, why is it suddenly just for you to deny them theirs? Even when admins consistently have a leashe on the tide. If they start a fight and kill someone about it, they get banned.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:39 pm #297720

Armhulen wrote:
Pascal125 wrote:
Nilons wrote:Unfortunately tgstation is not a small group of friends playing it with the expectation that everyone is going to enter and exit the game happy. No matter what you do in this game you are going to make someone have less fun at some point in the round, with the exception of precious few, very good rounds. We can't force the responsibility of other player's fun onto people to the extent you're suggesting. If you cut down on committing minor IC crimes because it ruins other people's fun, are you not just as bad for cutting down on greytiders fun? If the argument is made that they can find a different server, it can be made inverted, with the added fact that there are plenty of servers that punish committing minor IC crimes how you've described, but precious few who welcome it. Especially when committing minor IC crimes is normally punished with being removed from the round by other players, and if a greytider does remove you from the round then they're the ones who get banned. Why are we so hell bent on punishing players who create organic conflict without a card that says they can kill people, we should be lauding them for making the round more interesting than waiting for your valids to come knocking or your greentext to pop up. If you ban people who break windows then people are bound to figure out the only people breaking windows are antagonists, you cannot have a mystery whodunnit where it's as easy to meta who is valid or not without more robust rules regarding how you get information and what you know going into the round, as in medium-highRP.
That may be true, but it doesn't have to be for things to change. I don't see the problem with forcing them to cut back on the IC Crime when it is clearly negatively impacting the community and their enjoyment of the game. Greytiders can find fun in other ways, there are other ways that don't break the rules, or involve trying to kill people. I'm not saying committing minor IC crimes is inherently bad, sometimes it can be interesting, but it is often very prone to frustrating players or turning into meta-grudging. And, if left unpunished/unwarned it becomes consistent. These are not things we as a community should be encouraging or pushing towards. Valids, Conflict, Greentext, why should these be all we care about? There are other things to do. Conflict can be interesting, but sometimes people want a break. They shouldn't have to consistently deal with it every shift and run the possibility of being removed from the shift or lynch-mobbed. People take it too far, nowadays. We shouldn't be praising them for pushing people away.

We shouldn't start banning people for breaking every window. But something needs to be done about people consistently being a detriment. They're not exactly difficult to spot.
It's getting too extreme, when they consistently minor IC crime or break into places to get into fights with Security/Command/Staff. Especially during legitimate emergencies.

Nilons wrote:I'm not saying admins shouldn't do their job, I'm saying that it will never be no one dealing with it. If its decided that committing minor IC crimes is a problem, its not going to be as simple as everyone just stops, it's going to be followed by an avalanche of policy threads about line toeing and what is minor ic crime and what is bannable committing minor IC crimes. This isnt a major problem to be honest though because as stated, its the admins jobs. However making broad statements like "it shouldn't be admins, or players problem to deal with" solves nothing, because it is going to be one of their problems. Although I strongly agree that admins lack direction from what I can see as a player, I wish headmins had more weight to throw and a better way to direct the server, i'll give you that head on. The conversation that I'm seeing being had here is not, should admins do their job, it's, should banning grey imperfect people playing an imperfect game be in their job description. If you're dissatisfied with admins I encourage you to make a complaint. To discard admins who don't agree with one policy change they don't want to enforce because it goes against their view of where the game should progress doesn't mean they're shitty admins, it means the policy change isn't worth it. Admins deserve to be able to put their foot down on policy at least once, and even then they rarely do, normally opting to enforce policy they don't agree with at the behest of a headmin because they're not dickhead losers who take their ball and go home. On the subject of why should players be the ones dealing with the issue, the game is about conflict, it's players jobs to deal with traitors, and lings, and nuke ops, just like it's players job to deal with greytiders. It provides something to do besides validhunt for sec, which is a value in and of itself and an integral part of the way sec is designed. If there were no minor IC crime why not just start with 3 deathsquads instead of a security department, because anyone doing anything outside of their designated job that could be construed as minor IC crime is obviously either an antag or soon to be banned.
Ofcourse, but the behavior is being encouraged and has been increasingly becoming more problematic. I don't see an avalanche of policy threads over line-toeing and what is bannable minor IC crime being the result. It's pretty simple, and basically already covered under TG's Rules, specifically rule one. But even then, i don't see anything wrong with taking a step forward in trying to improve the servers/community. Sometimes, these things are necessary. We shouldn't be trying to avoid it. I feel i've said this many times, but. Yes, this game is about conflict, but there are limits to these things. Sometimes it is unnecessary and detrimental. Sometimes, it's done due to metagrudgers, sometimes, it's metafriending. Often times, It's done to be a dick. Not create conflict for "Enjoyment". I happen to play this game with all my Antag preferences off and never minor IC crime or try to "create conflict" by killing people unsolocited. This is how i've been playing for a long time. I realize i may be one in a hundred, but i know there are like-minded players here, too. I play Security and i play Command, yes. They are there to handle minor IC crime and conflict. But it gets extremely tiresome when you wind up having to deal with more Non-Antags then Antags, and they continue repeat offending until they manage to kill you.

I'm not trying to promote Med-HighRP, here. I've said and am saying, something needs to be done about these people. Why punish those who try to abide by the rules and encourage those who refuse to. They create "Conflict" is not a good reason.

Nilons wrote:I didn't mean it in a "our way or the highway" sort of fashion, I meant that medium RP servers will have a lot more stringent policy on justifying character actions, whereas what this community has put themselves on the path of is much more lowrp, allowing for ooc driven actions. Instead of "I broke that grille because I thought it would be funny" medium RP servers will generally expect something to the tune of "I broke it because I wanted what was on the other side of the grille for a goal I'm following/other strictly IC driven actions or chains of thought. What you're pushing for has been talked and talked to death on these forums as well, and other policy threads have been based firmly on the allowance of committing minor IC crimes, meaning that there would be a cascade of policy changes necessary if it was disallowed.
Last i'd heard, this community was Low-Med RP. I'm not saying we need to start questioning everyone's actions and banning them for failing to justify it. Again, I'm saying we need to start cracking down on repetitive, consistent hostile behavior. It's gone too far. And it overlaps so many issues. committing minor IC crimes is often tying in with Metagrudging/Metafriending. They're being dicks to be dicks at the expense of everyone else on the server. Not trying to "Create Enjoyable Conflict".

Nilons wrote:In one post you say the community is terrible, that people are losing interest, in another you say you like this place. I'm sorry that you dislike the forums in their current form but you'll be hard pressed to find many sympathizers who wanna flip it on its head just because you don't like it anymore without giving actual objective reasons it's of lower quality. You come in here swinging fists saying the community is shit and the admins aren't doing anything, where were you when the changes you dislike so much were being made? Why didn't you object then, frequent policy and trialmin reviews, or if you did, why did no one listen? In your opinion the forums need to be fixed, but to what form or iteration would you have them restored? Is there a specific time period you have nostalgia for that you think the server and forums were in a better state then they are now? What about the people who like the forums currently? Should they all go get fucked because you miss the glory days?
In my opinion, the community was once good, now it's less good. People are in-fact losing interest, as is evidenced by the threads popping up and admins quitting. I do like this place, this is the server i'd played on for a long time, and this is where i enjoyed playing. I'm not talking about the forums, here. And if you want the truth? I left and played in other servers. Much like everyone else did, i eventually left. But i'm back now. Some are back now. And at this point there's nothing else to do but this.

Ofcourse i don't think people should go "Get fucked because i miss the glory days". I don't know what gave you that idea. I think people should go get fucked if they're needlessly being dicks and pushing people away. Why should people go get fucked because they want change or to not have to deal with these players?

Nilons wrote:All in all if you stop committing minor IC crimes from happening then the only thing to break the monotony in a round is rping with other players, which I strongly support, but it's not what this servers community is pushing towards. Coupled with the fact that it will shake the foundation of other policy. Also stop inadvertently trying to start a coup against the admemes svp. Enjoy my autism wall of text/novel. TL;DR read it if you care dont if you dont
Again, it may not be. But i don't see the issue with encouraging communication and interaction over validhunting and robusting/trying to piss off your fellow crewmembers, here. I don't think clicking a sprite untill it turns sideways, should be all the gameplay we get.

I don't think you would find it enjoyable to have to deal with people hunting you shift after shift because you stomped their grey-tiding business one shift. Nor would you find it enjoyable to have to deal with the same consistent people doing the same boring consistent thing shift after shift, and not being able to act on it for fear of meta-grudge/meta-knowledge. It's like knowing exactly what's going on, but not being able to do anything until it inevitably kills you. By then it's too late, and nothing is more infuriating then when it's by some greytider "creating conflict" for "fun" during emergencies or times of duress.
tl;dr please

Ya boi nilons ~ "Well thought out autism wall justifying greyshittery"
This fucko ~ "Yeah but I really dont like it!"

Pascal125 · Post by **Pascal125** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:21 pm #297780

I find I've been very respectful towards you. Are the ad-homs really necessary, buddy? Do us a favor and don't try to pigeonhole it into something it isn't.

And, story time.
Just had to deal with some greyshirt. Thankfully i managed to stop them, sparing everyone from the cancer that would have inevitably ensued. but. It could've gone either way. And that's the great thing about creating conflict. It could've been frustratingly annoying for everyone. And fun for one person. But luckily, in this case, it was frustratingly annoying for one person, and fun for everyone. Ain't it just great to deal with Non-Antags stealing and trying to distribute All-Access and break into the brig/places? I call that a net gain. "Fun" possibilities!

You guys should try it sometime. See how "Fun" it is. Not like it could ever go wrong!

Except that it can, and when it does. People who didn't want to get involved wind up being involved. And it's often not enjoyable. It can be chaotic enough as is, we don't need more.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:56 pm #297794

I've had similar experiences. I've been part of metagangs not on tg. I've seen how easily it can dominate rounds and give someone the idea they can trample over others.

once you get that tag and you don't take active measures to disprove it, it will stay with you forever.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:58 pm #297796

didn't read anything but the title of the thread so my post is basically exclusively an opinion on being a shitheel because you don't like the map;
stop.
grow up.
each of the maps is functional as a station within which to play the game.
stop having autist shitfits because you don't like cerestation.
toughen up you pussies

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:59 pm #297797

i can't believe it
but it's a danno post that completely shitpost-free

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue May 23, 2017 9:45 pm #297845

Pascal125 wrote:I find I've been very respectful towards you. Are the ad-homs really necessary, buddy? Do us a favor and don't try to pigeonhole it into something it isn't.

And, story time.
Just had to deal with some greyshirt. Thankfully i managed to stop them, sparing everyone from the cancer that would have inevitably ensued. but. It could've gone either way. And that's the great thing about creating conflict. It could've been frustratingly annoying for everyone. And fun for one person. But luckily, in this case, it was frustratingly annoying for one person, and fun for everyone. Ain't it just great to deal with Non-Antags stealing and trying to distribute All-Access and break into the brig/places? I call that a net gain. "Fun" possibilities!

You guys should try it sometime. See how "Fun" it is. Not like it could ever go wrong!

Except that it can, and when it does. People who didn't want to get involved wind up being involved. And it's often not enjoyable. It can be chaotic enough as is, we don't need more.

Youre getting upset because I called you a fucko and you say you like these forums?

Also story time consisting of "I dealt with a greytider and beat his ass but it coulda been no fun at all" without any details, literally just you saying you dealt with a greytider. tbh I cant tell if youre shitposting at this point

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue May 23, 2017 10:01 pm #297876

danno wrote:didn't read anything but the title of the thread so my post is basically exclusively an opinion on being a shitheel because you don't like the map;
stop.
grow up.
each of the maps is functional as a station within which to play the game.
stop having autist shitfits because you don't like cerestation.
toughen up you pussies

wtf I like danno now??

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed May 24, 2017 1:54 am #298040

bandit wrote:
Pascal125 wrote:I did, four times. Guess who responded? Nobody. Shifts were trash and unenjoyable.
I really feel that admins should start doing something about people deciding to grief because of something they don't like. Shouldn't always fall on us to a-help it either, some of this stuff is repetitive and blatant shift by shift.
Hell, if only we had "Ban Requests" for this type of situation.
Admins are not God. We cannot see everything going on in the round. We can only observe one area of the station at a time, chat logs usually move too fast to keep up with, and we can only see things like someone's attack logs (for instance) if we specifically look for them. Nor can we psychically determine someone's intent. Nor do we have an instant telepathic replay of things that happened in rounds we were not around for. If something does not get ahelped, then most likely the admins do not know about it, because we have no way to.

tl;dr: ahelp your shit

also ahelp it AS IT HAPPENS, not when the round is over and it is 10000% more of a pain in the ass to investigate

Your ahelp is 100% more likely to get stored in the trash if you wait for the roundend to say "OMG X WASN'T ANTAG????"

ohnopigeons · Post by **ohnopigeons** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:18 am #298080

Greytiders are valid under "defend your department" policy.

Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B

That's not greytiding. Greytiding is smashing glass and glass doors repeatedly and consistently.

What the fuck is all this about metagrudging, metagrudging is already against the rules.

When I greytide I'm pretty much looking to be killed or removed from the round.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Wed May 24, 2017 6:35 am #298177

the key to being a good minor ic crimer is to SUBMIT TO SEC WHEN YOU ARE CAUGHT

make it fun for them too they are people

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Wed May 24, 2017 8:18 am #298227

ohnopigeons wrote:Greytiders are valid under "defend your department" policy.
Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B
That's not committing minor IC crimes. committing minor IC crimes is smashing glass and glass doors repeatedly and consistently.

What the fuck is all this about metagrudging, metagrudging is already against the rules.

When I minor IC crime I'm pretty much looking to be killed or removed from the round.

I said minor IC crime not greytide

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed May 24, 2017 8:40 am #298238

Lazengann wrote:
ohnopigeons wrote:Greytiders are valid under "defend your department" policy.
Lazengann wrote:
D&B wrote:Just kill them
A Chaplain smashed the glass sliding door above the tables, invaded Hydro and we had a fight which I heroically won. I dragged him into the emergency storage across from hydroponics, so someone else could find and clone his dumb self.

I got bwoinked by a slightly inebriated IcePacks who yelled at me for critting the minor IC crime guy who CLEARLY dindu nuffin.

So try again D&B
That's not committing minor IC crimes. committing minor IC crimes is smashing glass and glass doors repeatedly and consistently.

What the fuck is all this about metagrudging, metagrudging is already against the rules.

When I minor IC crime I'm pretty much looking to be killed or removed from the round.
I said minor IC crime not greytide

you're getting meme'd by the word filter