1) Literally do nothing except report crime early in the shift
2) Sec repeatedly and wordlessly stuns me as I stand still in maint
3) I bitch about it on radio and someone drags me away
4) Another officer chases me down and stuns me again, I shout "SEC HAS TURNED ON THE CREW! FIGHT BACK!"
5) Sec harmbatons me all the way to perma and then tosses me in a sealed cell
6) Get told its valid because I tried to incite a riot
At this point why even have a brig? Just give every officer a box full of lethal injection because they can apparently sprint around maint shooting anyone they like without saying anything and then kill me if they point out that I'm acting more like an antag than the actual fucking antags that round (this was actually true). No wonder posing as security as a ling is GODMODE - I dont' blame 99% of our players for not wanting to even touch a sec officer, even one with an armblade, when even sneezing in their direction is now grounds for taking you out of the round.
How about we start enforcing Rule 1 on Officers again? Or better yet can we get rid of "random arrests" under code blue. Someone slipped in the word change in a PR from "Probable" to "Random" searches under Code Blue and that timing has basically coincided with all of my worst encounters with security when security has the greenlight to fuck with a good 25% of your round for absolutely no reason, it leads to this sort of shitty policy where sec can take a big shit on your round for absolutely no reason but also take a nice permanent shit on your round if you so much as look at them funny.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Any arrest will always seem to be "for no reason" unless you know you're guilty. An officer will never state the charge before stuncuffing you, but I assume there's usually a reason behind it because officers don't run around stuncuffing random people. Maybe someone reported cult activity in your department and the HoS ordered to search everyone in it, maybe your prints were on an emagged door, there can be plenty of reasons you don't know because you can't hear sec channel. Giving everyone freedom to murder any officer who is trying to arrest them "for no reason" will just end badly.
The problem is for some reason security is always allowed to escalate to perma/lethals and the person getting arrested is not.
When a security officer wordlessly tries to taze me, I fight him off and he goes back for more then I should simply be allowed to dunk his ass out of an airlock.
Because you know, that is what will happen the other way around once you are caught.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Also since when was a single instance of "inciting a riot" a perma offence......
What's next, perma sentences for minor vandalism?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
CPTANT wrote:Also since when was a single instance of "inciting a riot" a perma offence......
What's next, perma sentences for minor vandalism?
Well it's a major crime in space law, plus if you dont just go AFK after an officer looks at you, you get hit with resisting arrest, manhunt, etc etc whatever they feel like, so now you are permaworthy.
Basically if you stray into a gray area you get fucked because "well if I dont remove them from the round they will come back to get REVENGE so I need to remove them from the round first", which goes both ways as you've seen from the posts in the thread.
Founder and only member of the "Whitelist Nukeops" movement
CPTANT wrote:Also since when was a single instance of "inciting a riot" a perma offence......
What's next, perma sentences for minor vandalism?
As I said earlier in the thread, which you should before posting, it wasnt just the riot, it was the bullshit during the arrest and trying to incite a second one as I was arresting him
I play Ostrava of Nanotrasen (good name) and Rolls-The-Bones (Crag Given name god bless)
Signature Memes
CPTANT wrote:The problem is for some reason security is always allowed to escalate to perma/lethals and the person getting arrested is not.
When a security officer wordlessly tries to taze me, I fight him off and he goes back for more then I should simply be allowed to dunk his ass out of an airlock.
Because you know, that is what will happen the other way around once you are caught.
This is because sec's job is literally to taze people, and admins usually see the one resisting arrest as the one who's initiating conflict, despite the sec officer being the one who actually started it.
But yeah, one way to deal with this would be to apply escalation rules and treat sec as any other role. An assistant stuns you and tries to cablecuff you? He started the conflict, if you defend yourself and escalate to lethal if he doesn't desist, you're good. If he ends up killing you, he gets banned. Sec officer tazes you and tries to cuff you? Same thing.
Of course this would result with less and less people playing sec out of sheer frustration as they would be constantly attacked by anyone they try to arrest and spaced/banned (depending on whether they lose or win the ensuing fight) but I guess we reached that point of the cycle anyway.
Last edited by Grazyn on Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Rude and abrasive; I apologise in advance. I play Betrays-Its-Kin if you wanna Metagrudge me.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
You know very well that no officer will waste time saying anything before they taze because if the target is actually guilty they will either a) run away before they've finished typing or b) kill them while they're typing. Asking officers to do this in MAINT of all places, when the target is already moving away is just ridiculous.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
One of securities greatest strengths is the sec hud, which lets them see why and when someone's wanted. If you shift click someone and see 4 counts of assaulted an officer with a big fat W over their head, the safest course of action is not to politely ask you to put these cuffs on before dragging you to the brig. Sec is already hated enough as is, they can rarely stand still long enough to have a conversation with someone about their arrest without risking a greytiding loser snatching them off. Sec will always tell you your crimes when you're at the brig, and if they don't, ahelp it. Screaming bloody murder and starting riots when sec tazes you wordlessly doesn't mean they don't give enough of a shit to tell you why, it's because they're scared of a known criminal, need to move fast, and most importantly because most of the station thinks it's hilarious to fuck with them. When you scream over radio that sec is rogue, you put literally every security officer at risk of being pushed over and killed the next time he pulls his stun baton out, all because ONE didn't announce his arrest in fucking advert like a gmod server. Of course they're going to up your sentence for that.
I play Ostrava of Nanotrasen (good name) and Rolls-The-Bones (Crag Given name god bless)
Signature Memes
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
You know very well that no officer will waste time saying anything before they taze because if the target is actually guilty they will either a) run away before they've finished typing or b) kill them while they're typing. Asking officers to do this in MAINT of all places, when the target is already moving away is just ridiculous.
I am not asking them to and neither do I do that when I am security. I ask you to accept the conflicts of interest in the game and the resulting escalation that happens because of it.
People seriously seem to think that every time there is a confict someone is "wrong" and the other side is "right".
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
You know very well that no officer will waste time saying anything before they taze because if the target is actually guilty they will either a) run away before they've finished typing or b) kill them while they're typing. Asking officers to do this in MAINT of all places, when the target is already moving away is just ridiculous.
I am not asking them to and neither do I do that when I am security. I ask you to accept the conflicts of interest in the game and the resulting escalation that happens because of it.
People seriously seem to think that every time there is a confict someone is "wrong" and the other side is "right".
It is my interest as a botanist to have a chem dispenser in botany, but I don't get to be mad when the chemist comes to dunk me after I stole it.
I just hope you treat all of this as IC issue and don't ahelp or complain OOC when sec eventually catches you and executes you.
Is to encourage more Tiders versus Security gameplay.
Literally. I wish people would just stop tiding whenever they are being detained or they see someone being detained. Security doesn't start shit. Security doesn't arrest you cause "Lol. Memes.". They arrest you for a reason. Much as you disagree with it, you know they're right. You just can't handle being stopped and decide to try to inconvenience them or try to get people to inconvenience them. Sometimes resorting to outright banbaiting and lying. If they removed Assistant as a role for a little while i guarantee there'd be less issues.
It's not rocket science. Be a good boy, and you won't get Jailtime.
Conflicting interests. I don't give a shit about what motive a security officer has to taze me if he doesn't say anything. Someone tazing me without saying anything in maint (especially in cult rounds) is someone I should be able to take out, ESPECIALLY if he comes back for more after the first encounter.
You know very well that no officer will waste time saying anything before they taze because if the target is actually guilty they will either a) run away before they've finished typing or b) kill them while they're typing. Asking officers to do this in MAINT of all places, when the target is already moving away is just ridiculous.
I am not asking them to and neither do I do that when I am security. I ask you to accept the conflicts of interest in the game and the resulting escalation that happens because of it.
People seriously seem to think that every time there is a conflict someone is "wrong" and the other side is "right".
I assume you're talking about when officers come back after you, and I agree, letting someone go and then having them gun for you is frustrating and lame. But the answer is not "well ill just fucking kill every cop who tries to arrest me because he can't come after me if hes a corpse!" If you haven't done anything permable, you won't get permad until you start making a ruckus (screaming for the death of all sec over comms will quickly upgrade you from 5 minutes to perma) and if you do, ahelp it, it's against the rules, if you have done something permable, take your medicine. I'm not saying just take whatever sentences you're given, but don't complain when YOU escalated it to riot incitation because you're terrified that the cop will break the rules and perma you 4noraisins, then get a permanent sentence for it. I can't stress this enough, if sec gives you a completely wrongful sentence, just ahelp it, multiple admins in this thread have made it clear its nbd and they just tell the officer he made a mistake he couldn't have known he made. With the presumption that a wrongful sentence will be dealt with oocly with neither parties being punished, the only way to move forward is to clarify that turning a five minute sentence into a perma is VERY easy if you jeopardize the life of the officer in question.
Tl;dr: killing someone because you think they might break the rules and give you an unjust perma sentence, or complaining when they upgrade you to perma for trying to get them killed because you think they might break the rules, is silly.
I play Ostrava of Nanotrasen (good name) and Rolls-The-Bones (Crag Given name god bless)
Signature Memes
Admins investigate plenty of things and 90% of the time security is in the right.
Some examples:
I've had people crying to the admins because they got lethaled while they broke into the armory.
Lizard ahelps me because he got his stuff taken from him by me, the warden. After he casually walked into the armory with the captains jetpack, laser, all access id and handtele but conveniently leaves it out and goes full dindunuffin, wasting both mine and the admin's time. << this one is even grand because he didn't even get lethaled and just brigged for 10 minutes.
Chaplain ahelps me because after beating someone to crit they get arrested and I find a nuke core extraction kit on him. Chaplain claims I planted it on him. Chaplain was just retarded and didn't see the huge YOU ARE THE TRAITOR text.
I also had a tide going insane because I brigged him for riding a borg into the hos office and telling it to open the locker to steal the hos' greycoat.
Also before you ahelp people/tide consider the following security precedents:
The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.
For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. However, security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes, especially important department-specific items like hard suits. Obvious exceptions to this are things like radio headsets, if players use it to harass security over the radio while being arrested.
While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armoury, is in the armoury, or is leaving it
As long as sympathy comes with a tactical disadvantage then no-one in sec is going to show any in any situation other than when they feel they have an overwhelming advantage, being nice can and will get you and others killed, whether its shaking up the wrong person in the middle of a clusterfuck of a fight, coming into a situation with half the information and helping the wrong person because they screamed over comms first, or assuming the person with the command role has your best interests at heart, being trustworthy and otherwise sympathetic backfires more often than not.
And think about dealing with the consequences of this, responding with "greytide" when you get bwoinked is much easier than dealing with whatever the antag had planned, when you explain to the admins why you killed that fluro-haired greysuit you know they're going to be reasonable, but explaining to the other players why you didnt kill the tator who you could only find through killing them all and letting redtext sort them out you know they're not going to take it well.
Back to the tactical disadvantage, most people will start running on instinct as soon as a sec officer enters their vision, even if they have no reason to be scared of anything, this is probably partially due to the sec reputation of sending people to the great deadchat in the sky with as much provocation as they decide they need that shift, to ask someone for a search you need to meet the requirements of, they dont feel like running like a deer in headlights, they arent in a hurry to get somewhere and do something, most people will just run around the station without stopping even without either objective, and they need to feel safe enough to release control of their movement to type out a response and/or be prepared to continue to release control to engage in a conversation.
Needless to say many people decide all those criteria arent worth meeting when you can just yakety sax away, if you're a non-antag you dont have nothing to fear from security, you just have the assumption that you wont be killed since you arent the bad guys, nevermind if you end up acting and appearing like an antag because the confidence in your innocence makes you think any punishment directed at you is unjust since you werent picked by the game to kill people or steal shit.
Even greytiders who do both of those things, killing people who come into their workplace, steal items, or otherwise do something apparently worth dying for, or stealing an important item because they need it for their autism fort or project for testing something weird they decided to do this round, feel what they're doing isnt wrong since the rules say they arent an antagonist and arent the "enemy" of the bulk of the station.
Security also have the luxury of saying anything they did was in the interest of protecting the station/saving lives/stopping the antags, they have a better platform to defend themselves against criticism and so they act more boldly with the knowledge that their position makes both accusing and punishing them for any misdeeds more difficult.
Meanwhile anything an Assistant does is almost never going to make sense to an outside observer, or have any concrete reasoning that anyone would believe since they're basically freelancers, doing whatever they want for no reason other than they want to, sure it helps to have an excuse ready and even do it sometimes, like clearing maint of mice, fixing wire breaks, or dragging crates to cargo, the fact is that an assistant usually wont be able to tell you why they're doing what they're doing, so since their actions are almost always grounded in their own desires, that severely limits what they can justify to other people, meaning that if they get caught doing something, explaining the surreal train of thought that lead to the current situation is usually going to be not worth it compared to just running away hoping sec has bigger things to deal with.
Assistants know they arent protected by position like security is, so they know that anything they do is going to have more scrutiny, and it seems that most take this into account and decide its simpler to go in for a penny in for a pound and fight against everyone rather than be judged by system that wont treat them fairly anyway, of course the latter is also effected by the former, the more assistants who chose to fight to the death over the 1 minute arrest the less patience security will have for everyones bullshit, which makes choosing to cooperate seem that much less appealing.
So basically both sides are acting the way they are because its easier, its easier for sec to kill the wrong person and keep going with a sense that the ends justify the means rather than stretching out their patience trying to deal with things on a case-by-case basis because they know as security they have the most airtight excuse for any and all wrongs. "Just following orders.", and its easier for greys to never cooperate with security because they believe that since they arent valid security has no reason to fuck with them and that falling in line wont benefit them anyway.
TLDR: Security acts the way they do because of the safety of their position and the fear of the restless and erratic assistants, The Greytide acts the way it does because of the perceived safety of (usually) being non-antags, and the fear of an increasingly brutal and unsympathetic security force.
Typing is akin to a soft stun gameplay-wise, each time you talk you are potentially jeopardizing your entire round for the sake of roleplay or necessity. The issue isn't just sec not talking, but also every other combat-oriented role, including greyshirts. The only time they can safely talk is when they're already incapable of doing anything else (cuffed and pulled), but instead of asking for an explanation (which doesn't provide an instant benefit) they rather start crying about shitcurity, because it increases the chances that another random player or metafriend will drag them away.
Chat wheel was a step in the right direction but it was removed for some reason.
How security happens in reality:
Instantly feel need to prove skill be speed-tasing/be as hitlerly as possible/take everything personally
Makes guy on other end upset too because his time is being wasted
Everyone is upset
Leads to threads/policy discussion
How security should happen:
If someone is set to wanted and not blatantly murdering everyone or doing something crazy ask them to come with you to the brig or something that fits the situation
Actually talk to other person (dare I say roleplay)
Use force when actually needed (I don't mean be a pussy necessarily if it doesn't fit your character, but justify it by some reasonable standard)
Use common sense
It's about Sportsmanship
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer!#ConcurForever
Bawhoppennn wrote:
How security should happen:
If someone is set to wanted and not blatantly murdering everyone or doing something crazy ask them to come with you to the brig or something that fits the situation
It's about Sportsmanship
Out of all the times I tried that it never worked aside from one case.
Besides, this will never work on the grey tide in general.
It's not just a problem with the sec players exclusively. Everyone needs to have sportsmanship for things to not be shit.
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer!#ConcurForever
It is disheartening that many people feel that our sec policy should only enforce the most bare minimum of decency, people can't even talk shit on radio when they get randomly arrested or else they'll catch perma or watch 25% of their round evaporate. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance and as long as our administration continues to support the "Security doesn't need to talk to you, they owe you no explanation, they don't require any justification to shoot you, cuff you, and drag you to the brig - and we will support them if they kill or perma you for resisting in the slightest" then thats what many sec players will opt for since there's no difference between:
1) Officer asks if they can conduct a search based on probable cause. Crewmember flees and try to slip the officer. Officer pursues and apprehends. Officer does a field search which reveals nothing. Officer releases suspect asking them to comply with searches in the future. Upon release the crewmember immediately attacks the officer. Officer stuns the crewmember and gives them an 8 minute sentence. Crewmember is eventually released and attacks the officer again shortly after release. Officer arrests them again and notifies superior of the crewmember's action. Warden recommends perma. Crewmember is perma'd.
versus
2) Officer wordlessly tases crewmember, but lags a bit and doesn't get the cuffs on in time, crewmember gets up and tries to disarm the officer. Officer immediately harmbatons them to death.
I'm not saying #1 should be required, its almost saintly by sec standards, but the fact that our policy gives virtually no credit to #1 because it permits #2 means that #2 becomes the default behavior for anyone who wants to maximize efficiency in their security round. It's not helped by the fact that Asimov is practically non-existent and our policy there had grown similarly lax, hell we don't even REQUIRE the AI to prohibit law changes when a harmful member of security asks for a law change anymore. HOS can straight up murder a cuffed prisoner while the AI watches, AI mutters something about "Please do not harm" and then 60 seconds later its granting the HOS upload access for an unnamed law change.
We have rules to encourage a basic minimum of decent behavior. For anyone in this game the path of least resistance is often to kill and space anyone who is giving you trouble - but we all had enough common sense to know what a shitshow that would be so we require some basic RP and escalation before people resort to brazen murder. Unfortunately in our efforts to relax security policy we've gone too far and are now in the territory where the only sec policy is a single box to check: Did someone do something to provoke you? If the answer is Yes, then you are free to do anything short of raping them.
Grazyn wrote:Typing is akin to a soft stun gameplay-wise, each time you talk you are potentially jeopardizing your entire round for the sake of roleplay or necessity. The issue isn't just sec not talking, but also every other combat-oriented role, including greyshirts. The only time they can safely talk is when they're already incapable of doing anything else (cuffed and pulled), but instead of asking for an explanation (which doesn't provide an instant benefit) they rather start crying about shitcurity, because it increases the chances that another random player or metafriend will drag them away.
Chat wheel was a step in the right direction but it was removed for some reason.
At the risk of repeating my last post I'll say this. We shouldn't require officers to talk for the reason you mentioned. If an officers spidey-sense is tingling then they should be able to taze first with confidence.
The issue is that we don't give any credit to officers who DO take this risk. If youre being a shitler and randomly tazing people and stripping their shit without saying a word, you can still kill anyone who fights back, or apparently anyone who even shouts for people to fight back on radio - but if you're a goodcurity officer does our policy give them any additional leeway when they've been handling situations with courtesy and decency? No, we've already extended the maximum amount of leeway to even the worst officers. I think yesterday's case is a good example. If sec wants to wordlessly taze and baton me for standing in maint, sure thats valid, but if I yell that security is rogue on the radio during that incident then maybe JUST MAYBE they don't get to toss me in perma for "inciting a riot". Meanwhile if an officer tries to talk to people, asks for searches, uses probable cause, and only resorts to attacking crew who don't comply, then we give them the option of perma'ing people who still try to stir shit up on radio when they're actually acting responsibly.
I think one of the things that could change is the notion that any type of resisting from the person getting arrested should equal to a perma sentence.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
I'm one of the Security officers who talks to people. Asks them to comply to searches, Sometimes i get people to cuff or follow me to the brig uncuffed so we can sort out why they're wanted if they lack any record, etc.
This usually works and proceeds smoothly 8/10 on Anyone who isn't an Assistant or a Traitor.
Otherwise. The Assistant will say "Fuck off" or sax/attack. The traitor will usually make some funny excuse like. "I have a doctor's appointment, sorry." or be threatened enough to run/shoot you. Which is why some Officers don't even bother.
Literally. What do you expect when you run or retaliate violently. They have to do something. And when they get you, a good idea isn't to scream that they're obviously rogue / beating you out of nowhere.
You people are throwing how Security acts way out of hand. Nobody gets Perma'd for simply resisting arrest. Perma rarely sees any use in general.
The best way to educate yourselves is to play Security and actually find out what it's like on the other end of the spectrum. See how you wind up acting.
Just, for the love of god. Don't lose your taser to a random grey-shirt five minutes in. Keep that shit hidden when not in use.
Oh, and if you want more advice. Don't even try to tase/disable a mob of them. They'll sax or shake eachother up and attack you. Claiming you're rogue.
Rude and abrasive; I apologise in advance. I play Betrays-Its-Kin if you wanna Metagrudge me.
Pascal125 wrote:I'm one of the Security officers who talks to people. Asks them to comply to searches, Sometimes i get people to cuff or follow me to the brig uncuffed so we can sort out why they're wanted if they lack any record, etc.
This usually works and proceeds smoothly 8/10 on Anyone who isn't an Assistant or a Traitor.
Otherwise. The Assistant will say "Fuck off" or sax/attack. The traitor will usually make some funny excuse like. "I have a doctor's appointment, sorry." or be threatened enough to run/shoot you. Which is why some Officers don't even bother.
Literally. What do you expect when you run or retaliate violently. They have to do something. And when they get you, a good idea isn't to scream that they're obviously rogue / beating you out of nowhere.
You people are throwing how Security acts way out of hand. Nobody gets Perma'd for simply resisting arrest. Perma rarely sees any use in general.
The best way to educate yourselves is to play Security and actually find out what it's like on the other end of the spectrum. See how you wind up acting.
Just, for the love of god. Don't lose your taser to a random grey-shirt five minutes in. Keep that shit hidden when not in use.
Oh, and if you want more advice. Don't even try to tase/disable a mob of them. They'll sax or shake eachother up and attack you. Claiming you're rogue.
Do lose your taser, it means you can smash their skulls in when you catch them.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
No. They will use it against you and you will be at the disadvantage of chasing some greysuit running down the hallways at the speed of light with a taser whilst having nothing but short range stuns.
Heck, sometimes they'll be on meth. Too.
You will undoubtedly be stunned. And potentially mobbed on because "VIVA" "Haha Unrobust" and, or "Greytide Stationwide". Some new/unrobust officers go through several tasers a shift. If they are not dead.
The ironic truth of the matter is. People who play Assistant are basically picking on new players playing Security. But it's always presented as the inverse.
This thread began as a pseudo ban request because he got dunked on for being an Assistant during a Clock Cult shift and deciding to be a little bitch. And still couldn't accept that he was wrong and shouldn't have tried to escape several times, call security rogue, sic the AI on them, scream that he's being harmed when he wasn't. Etc, etc, etc.
Now the thread's just gone down the usual "Something must be wrong with security" path he wants. In spite of that fact.
Rude and abrasive; I apologise in advance. I play Betrays-Its-Kin if you wanna Metagrudge me.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It is disheartening that many people feel that our sec policy should only enforce the most bare minimum of decency, people can't even talk shit on radio [wall of robustin deleted]
This is the part you STILL don't get. You literally told people to fight back, and they did. That's past the point of talking shit. It's like yelling FIRE in a crowded theater when there's no fire, and then complaining when you get your shit slapped for it: "b-but I was just talking shit!"
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro
I don't want to peruse the drama so I'll just chime in my thoughts
1. ahelp shitty security or your opinion is actually irrelevant, I'm so fucking tired of seeing people complain post round about poor security and never having gotten an ahelp about it
2. I figure there's a sort of cycle that's happened/happening (this is entirely based off my personal thoughts and is likely incorrect)
-player does something shitty
-admin bans them
-player appeals
-extreme drama happens
-admin drama also happens as admins debate if it was deserved or not
-it all leads to nothing because a headmin or older admin just unbans the player, probably to avoid the headache
-everyone loses because the banned player is told their shitty behaviour is okay, the person who was wronged sees that the admins let that behaviour go unpunished, and the admin team has infighting and drama
-admins start not wanting to ban people who are toeing the line because it creates drama and they get unbanned anyways
I don't actually know how accurate this is and this was my theory when I was just a player
now that I'm an admin, I still don't know how true it is - we certainly have internal debate, but I won't pretend to speak for other admins on why they don't ban these "problem players"
hell, every admin has a different definition of what constitutes shitty play - if admin A thinks [player] is a line toeing asswipe who contributes nothing, that doesn't mean headmin B or admin C agrees - we can't define what constitutes line toeing or shitty play because of the above, and this might lead to admins just leaving notes and not bothering trying to ban because of the drama it creates
I'm not trying to imply anything about anyone but I think there is a fair chunk of regular players who view a small number of other players to be consistently shit, and when the admins don't ban the people considered shitty, it leads to posts like this - that's also ignoring the fact that there's also people who aren't regulars that do "shitty" stuff and don't get banned
I'm sure another admin will quote me and put a bolded line under each of my sentences explaining why I'm a braindead fuckwit who doesn't know anything, but I think this is why we don't see a lot of these "shitty" players banned
Security would probably be more willing to play nice if it wasn't for the more extreme grey tide happening.
It seems like the amount of greytide is getting worse, and since it mostly gets labeled IC nothing gets done.
Like there's people who'd break into sec round after round after round to do the same thing like steal great coat, training bomb and other shit.
You can't give them tougher sentences because then it's "metagrudging".
Another thing that happens is you have some players who do nothing but antag security round after round, if someone snaps and lethals them it's suddenly on them because they didn't do enough that round to warrant lethals. Admins boinking or deathchat/ooc abuse to follow.
What you generally see after an intense greytide round is none/one of the sec roles taken, sec being completely deserted. Then the unlucky one person who gets assigned or decides to join generally gets overrun because the tide never ends.
I can definitely recall the admins being harder on tiding assholes a while back. Security was played more often and the rounds were generally better quality than they are now.
AdAstraPerAspera wrote:Security would probably be more willing to play nice if it wasn't for the more extreme grey tide happening.
It seems like the amount of greytide is getting worse, and since it mostly gets labeled IC nothing gets done.
Like there's people who'd break into sec round after round after round to do the same thing like steal great coat, training bomb and other shit.
You can't give them tougher sentences because then it's "metagrudging".
Another thing that happens is you have some players who do nothing but antag security round after round, if someone snaps and lethals them it's suddenly on them because they didn't do enough that round to warrant lethals. Admins boinking or deathchat/ooc abuse to follow.
What you generally see after an intense greytide round is none/one of the sec roles taken, sec being completely deserted. Then the unlucky one person who gets assigned or decides to join generally gets overrun because the tide never ends.
I can definitely recall the admins being harder on tiding assholes a while back. Security was played more often and the rounds were generally better quality than they are now.
This. But not only that, they'll banbait you too. It doesn't matter how you did it. No matter what, they were in the right. To them. And you'll always have the post-round toxicity where everything is a massive witch hunt against security and there's lots of lying involved just to make people attack them more. It antagonizes people who even bother playing Security and care about what people might think of them. Even if they know it's just fucks calling them shit over being arrested. If enough of them call them shit, people will start believing their shit. Even if it's not true. And then, the next shift. Others are antagonizing you ICly or calling you shit OOCly when you arrest them, with them.
It becomes a massive "Minor IC Crime" circlejerk.
Only way to fix these issues is if the admins start talking about it and finding ways to reasonably handle them. It's a neverending constant issue ICly due to the lack of policy / decisiveness and it won't be handled and prevented ICly.
Not without you winding up looking bad for arresting them over it or them trying to make you look bad as a result.
Rude and abrasive; I apologise in advance. I play Betrays-Its-Kin if you wanna Metagrudge me.
This is actually horseshit. I've had rounds where as a nonantag I've done nothing wrong and stayed in my dept or run to cargo to order shit, security must have gotten bored and decided to randomly search me, tasing me, cuffing me and dragging me off to the brig for no reason, leaving me bucklecuffed to a chair for 10-15 minutes and then a 2-5 minute brig sentence slapped on me. Great game where you spend 20+ minutes in the brig over literally nothing and when you ahelp all you get in reply is 'IC Issue'. And all of this when you don't resist and simply ask why you're being cuffed or dragged around, let alone harm batoned.
there are times where sec is tipped off about someone, whether the tip be a traitor setting someone up for the fall or otherwise, and you often won't be told this as you're arrested
robustin is equating the fact the that admins won't deal with someone who murders you for inciting a riot to letting them get away with shitty arrests which is just not true.
if you ahelp a shitty arrest and don't make a fuss it's my experience 9/10 the admin will rule in your favour since you wanted the ooc ruling
if you argue with the sec officer and mouth off ic and cause a riot the admin will rule the other way sinc e it looks like you wanted to deal with it IC and it escalated
There are times where a innocent party might be arrested based on a lie or misinformation. Its entirely possibly that someone is arrested because someone else got their information wrong, or they were lied to, or the evidence points towards that person by chance.
You may be arrested even though you are utterly innocent, but the information that security has at the time leaves them to arrest you.
And it'd be a very good idea. Not to fucking scream that they're rogue and killing you and the crew needs to rise up against security when they're dragging you to the brig.
And instead explain in a calm and concise manner when you are told by the officer and when it happens.
If they then start bashing your shit in. Ahelp it.
Rude and abrasive; I apologise in advance. I play Betrays-Its-Kin if you wanna Metagrudge me.
Sligneris wrote:Maybe the best option is to simply not to start shit with security.
Better yet, apply Rule 1 and Rule 7 to CJS.
Then why does security get a free pass to start shit with you?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Oh, sure. It's so common for security to hack into secure areas roundstart, steal items, and attack people when they get caught. Oh wait. That doesn't actually happen and security doesn't usually go if you don't give them a reason to.
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
Sligneris wrote:Oh, sure. It's so common for security to hack into secure areas roundstart, steal items, and attack people when they get caught. Oh wait. That doesn't actually happen and security doesn't usually go if you don't give them a reason to.
Can we please stop with the "security is never wrong" myth.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Sure. Once you actually tell us what security does wrong.
There is literally two examples of security I encountered when security was wrong - one when an officer dedicated an entire round to picking a fight with initially cooperative crewmembers, because "the law is the law" and I ended up having to space them, for which I ate a day ban. Another was when I had to gulag one officer and kill another, because one would go ahead and protect a criminal who'd break into my office twice and attack me, and another would attack me for attempting to demote the other (after already being the one to release the criminal the first time).
Still, these aren't examples of officers starting shit - they're examples of officers being incompetent and bullheaded.
Yet that's not the kind of thing Robustin is talking about. What he is talking about is "wtf, why is security doing anything to me while I griff". So it's hard to take anything seriously from him, especially with assistant griefing being much more prevalent than security incompetence. You're very unlikely to get in trouble with security as a regular medical doctor or bartender doing your job. But security will surely "start shit" with you when you break into the brig and incite a riot within the first 5 minutes of the round.
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
Sligneris wrote:Sure. Once you actually tell us what security does wrong.
There is literally two examples of security I encountered when security was wrong - one when an officer dedicated an entire round to picking a fight with initially cooperative crewmembers, because "the law is the law" and I ended up having to space them, for which I ate a day ban. Another was when I had to gulag one officer and kill another, because one would go ahead and protect a criminal who'd break into my office twice and attack me, and another would attack me for attempting to demote the other (after already being the one to release the criminal the first time).
Still, these aren't examples of officers starting shit - they're examples of officers being incompetent and bullheaded.
Yet that's not the kind of thing Robustin is talking about. What he is talking about is "wtf, why is security doing anything to me while I griff". So it's hard to take anything seriously from him, especially with assistant griefing being much more prevalent than security incompetence. You're very unlikely to get in trouble with security as a regular medical doctor or bartender doing your job. But security will surely "start shit" with you when you break into the brig and incite a riot within the first 5 minutes of the round.
This is just more "security is never wrong"
There are plenty of instances where I got tazed for whatever reason, ranging from sec just going around mass implanting everyone to "hurr durr, assistants shouldn't have insulated gloves" to "lolz I am not even a security officer in the first place, I am a cultist trying to sacrifice you".
But that behaviour isn't a problem, the PROBLEM is unequal escalation rules.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
