Chaplain accountability

[J_Madison]

I am not happy about some Chaplains having little to no accountability recently and using cult/clock as an excuse to grief as a pseudo-protagonist.

I am also not happy about the complete lack of quality and accountability of Chaplains that have managed to suicide or get themselves arrested and in bad standing with sec during cult rounds.

Chaplain relics are also vitally important, yet they're frequently no-drop or not shared.

For such a vital job, there is zero accountability to it. And it is a unique job so brigging or executing them is often out of the picture.


Is there any way to enforce Chaplains better?

[Cobby]

Open slots for chaplain if the first is a shitler

[ShadowDimentio]

JMad are you incapable of dealing with things yourself or are you just so stupid that you want policy to dictate every single thing in the game

[D&B]

It's a valid policy discussion. Right now at least two gamemodes have a working chaplain as a pillar for resistance in part of NT. Asking if they should be held to a higher standard due to the role they have now it's not unreasonable nor petty.

[ShadowDimentio]

It's a valid policy discussion. Right now at least two gamemodes have a working chaplain as a pillar for resistance in part of NT. Asking if they should be held to a higher standard due to the role they have now it's not unreasonable nor petty.

Hardly. The chaplain isn't required for sec to blast some cultist ass, though they do help, and we don't need "higher standards" for a job that's only marginally more important than the clown in every mode except two, and in those two modes they're only needed* to slap one tank of holy water for deconversion. If the chaplain is being an unreliable turd in a cult round, just let him get killed and fire up the gas chambers for any cultists brought your way.

*Not really needed

[Reece]

Chaplains are needed to tuen cults from 'security is an actual death camp' to 'security is a deathcamp but the priest feeds you juice and hits you on the head a lot'

They're not exactly a make or break factor

[Steelpoint]

A good Chaplain can make or break a game for NT/Sec/Crew in a cult game mode. The issue with Holy Water is either you have more than you never need or you all but virtually nothing.

Without a good Chaplain, security turns to simply executing virtually anyone they capture as they have no way to discern cultists from non-cultists. However with a good Chaplain, security can detain and deconvert anyone they get.

So the ultimate issue is a good Chaplain can save lives whereas a bad Chaplain will cost them.

This can make or break NTs chances of winning since the more people they save and deconvert the more allies they have. Whereas if they execute everyone the entire station, cultist or otherwise, will turn against them.

[DrPillzRedux]

This is why you don't make flavor/gimmick jobs important pillars in a game mode; play 2 winners get mad you aren't playing to win.

Just like security officers can fuck off and do whatever, chaplains should be able to do the same. Half the time you get Chaplain you can't do any gimmick you've planned because OH NO CULTISTS ARE HERE. Your round turns into sitting in the brig force feeding/smacking people.

Honestly the Chapel should have an object in it to deal with cultists, that way sec can just take that over themselves or cultists can try and take it over first. Or cult shit should just not work in the chapel only.

[Grazyn]

If there was a way for sec to take over the chaplain's powers and do the thing themselves, they'd do it every single round. However, it is true that there is an unbalance of forces when cults are getting more and more foolproofed to prevent incompetent cultists from ruining the inevitable victory, while chaplains can just fuck off forever.
Case in point: bloodcult was foolproofed by robustin with the cult master ability to summon everyone to his location, since herding cultists to the rune was the hardest part; clock cult was foolproofed by joan removing any possible useless component sink because the only way for clock to lose was new cultists wasting components on stuff other than the ark.

[J_Madison]

JMad are you incapable of dealing with things yourself or are you just so stupid that you want policy to dictate every single thing in the game

yeah no i dont ever kill captives that cooperate and have the sportsmanship to know when they've lost. i prefer to deconvert as many as i can

also don't say cargo because we need the implants too


miss me with your bullshit else i send 2 officers with combat shotguns to massacre a department over a team antag

This is why you don't make flavor/gimmick jobs important pillars in a game mode; play 2 winners get mad you aren't playing to win.

Just like security officers can fuck off and do whatever, chaplains should be able to do the same. Half the time you get Chaplain you can't do any gimmick you've planned because OH NO CULTISTS ARE HERE. Your round turns into sitting in the brig force feeding/smacking people.

Honestly the Chapel should have an object in it to deal with cultists, that way sec can just take that over themselves or cultists can try and take it over first. Or cult shit should just not work in the chapel only.

it isn't about winning for me. it's about ensuring everyone has a fun round and the innocent quiet guy doing his job doesn't get killed because one person in his department was a cultist or the ai saw something near their workplace.

[BeeSting12]

This is actually quite a good thread and he holds a valid point. Chaplains should be held to more of a standard than "greytider with cool sword and smoke spell." I've had multiple rounds, one just yesterday in fact, where the chaplain has acted shitty enough to be permaed/gulagged and then a cult pops up. Naturally we open more slots but chaplains should still be held to some sort of standard if they are going to be vital to two gamemodes.

Yes, I am aware that I can execute cultists and more often than not I do, but the chaplain is the only way to nonlethally deal with clock cultists unless you want to order religion crates from cargo, which are (2000 points I think) and only contain the means to deconvert one person with the vial of holy water, so it isn't really feasible. Honestly, if a chaplain's blessed a tank of water for security and makes a good faith attempt to not die then I think he's done his job- The chaplain isn't really needed beyond that except on blood cult for the null rod which he can give up or just come as called.

[Cobby]

Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

A potentially avoidable situation by opening slots is unjokingly the best course of action instead of forcing a primarily gimmick job to not do anything from security players' idea of norm.

Perhaps you should work around them previously being a shitler. Maybe cut a deal with them or something.

IDK there are many ways to approach one guy being a loser who isn't even vital to win the game [especially when some of you admit you just kill cultists anyways] that doesn't require a man who has an importance in only 3 gamemodes to be held to standards that security is not even held to.

[J_Madison]

Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

A potentially avoidable situation by opening slots is unjokingly the best course of action instead of forcing a primarily gimmick job to not do anything from security players' idea of norm.

Perhaps you should work around them previously being a shitler. Maybe cut a deal with them or something.

IDK there are many ways to approach one guy being a loser who isn't even vital to win the game [especially when some of you admit you just kill cultists anyways] that doesn't require a man who has an importance in only 3 gamemodes to be held to standards that security is not even held to.

i expect to lose to;
adminbuse
codebuse
unrobust
too robust
lolsorandumb events

not shitty players

[Cobby]

But you can mitigate "shitty players" by investing in a religious crate box, opening chaplain slots, simply offing the cultists, or a combination of the three.

Admins do not need to shoehorn themselves into situations because you dislike how you're losing.

[kevinz000]

Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

A potentially avoidable situation by opening slots is unjokingly the best course of action instead of forcing a primarily gimmick job to not do anything from security players' idea of norm.

Perhaps you should work around them previously being a shitler. Maybe cut a deal with them or something.

IDK there are many ways to approach one guy being a loser who isn't even vital to win the game [especially when some of you admit you just kill cultists anyways] that doesn't require a man who has an importance in only 3 gamemodes to be held to standards that security is not even held to.

i expect to lose to;
adminbuse
codebuse
unrobust
too robust
lolsorandumb events

not shitty players

I expect to lose to
1. Shitty teammates


Not any of the above

[ShadowDimentio]

There's like five different ways to get more holy water in addition to the chappy, if you're so bad that you can't get a single one working nor can you just kill the cultists you deserve to lose.

[BeeSting12]

There's like five different ways to get more holy water in addition to the chappy, if you're so bad that you can't get a single one working nor can you just kill the cultists you deserve to lose.

Name the other four, because the only one I'm aware of is cargo.

[DemonFiren]

botany's holymelons is another
that aside, name the other three shadowmemes

[ShadowDimentio]

Cargo, chemistry, botany, roundstart chappy, extra slot chappys

[J_Madison]

Cargo, chemistry, botany, roundstart chappy, extra slot chappys

lolno
nope
yeah right
brigged
closed slot/nobody opens

[DemonFiren]

>chemistry can make holy water
wait what

[PKPenguin321]

How serious is this thread? Jmad's last two posts are making me think it's not actually an issue at all, just him bitching about nothing

[DemonFiren]

Only the last two?

[ShadowDimentio]

>chemistry can make holy water
wait what

They can on Goon, after we ported all those chems from Goon I thought we brought the holy water recipe too. Apparently not.

[NikNakFlak]

How serious is this thread? Jmad's last two posts are making me think it's not actually an issue at all, just him bitching about nothing

Basically yea

[Grazyn]

I too don't understand why jmad is mad about this, he gets to torture a non-antag member of the clergy while whispering "it puts the holy water on the cultist or else it gets the baton again", isn't that everything he dreams for?

[J_Madison]

Like you would ahelp a blatantly incompetent CMO for doing shit surgery to you or a CE that can't wire or mix.

I do not want to be forced to work with someone who either hates me or is grossly incompetent.

[Qbopper]

Like you would ahelp a blatantly incompetent CMO for doing shit surgery to you or a CE that can't wire or mix.

I do not want to be forced to work with someone who either hates me or is grossly incompetent.

But we don't ban people who fuck up unless it's a symptom of a larger problem

I know this game has a very insular community but the day we ban people for genuine mistakes and nothing else is the day the server dies

[J_Madison]

a genuine mistake is not greytiding brig and spamming smoke whilst pissing off sec

A genuine mistake is not attacking sec and brig then using your armblade to break out of the cell then ghosting in permabrig.

A genuine mistake is not beating all prisoners retarded during cult with the bible.

A genuine mistake isn't giving a prisoner 100u of holy water.



It's easy to dismiss my arguments if you view me as a monster. How about tonight 1500 EST get on discord and chat to me and we work things out and get to know eachother.

All of you.

[Qbopper]

a genuine mistake is not greytiding brig and spamming smoke whilst pissing off sec

A genuine mistake is not attacking sec and brig then using your armblade to break out of the cell then ghosting in permabrig.

A genuine mistake is not beating all prisoners retarded during cult with the bible.

A genuine mistake isn't giving a prisoner 100u of holy water.



It's easy to dismiss my arguments if you view me as a monster. How about tonight 1500 EST get on discord and chat to me and we work things out and get to know eachother.

All of you.

Then why include "incompetent" in your posts

We don't ban people for being incompetent unless it's part of a larger problem (they consistently fuck up rounds for everyone, for example) so of course I'm going to dispute the part of your post that was hilariously unrealistic

[J_Madison]

I'm not making this thread into a ban request.

Last 3 incidents happened within the last week. First incident happened on a daily basis on Sybil.

We'll pull ckeys on discord tonight.

It's part of a larger problem when ckeys involved have a history of gross abuse of power and shittery.

[Qbopper]

I don't think jmad is reading my posts

[Xhagi]

It's part of a larger problem when ckeys involved have a history of gross abuse of power and shittery.

How ironic.

What you seek to remove is the element that makes the game interesting, the human element. The one capable of making mistakes, or making decisions you do not like, and the one making the game interesting through conflict. As Qbopper said, the day we remove people for mistakes, is the day the game dies. You have plenty of other ways to get your valid fluid, please use those ways instead.

[kevinz000]

ITT: wtf chaplain isn't enabling my validhunting ban he
Shit I play security and I think you're overreacting.

[feem]

tfw mekhi thinks you're validhunting too hard

I don't know if the problem here is that chaplains aren't taking things seriously, but that, as several people have noted, coderbus is putting what were previously or at least traditionally fluffy characters into roles of responsibility.

At this point we have some options.

1) don't care
In the instance of not caring, things continue as they are and no changes are made.

2) coderbus reduces the role or efficacy of chaplains in conversion cult game modes, OR implements balancing mechanisms to be used at some other cost (research items, ordered shit from cargo, maybe as easy as being able to order holy water from cargo) in the event of an unwilling or absent chaplain

3) admins/coderbus add chaplain to the 'you must be this old to play' list and begin more closely monitoring chaplain behavior, to an extent greater than that of any other non-head job (i.e. chemists are replaceable, chaplains aren't, etc etc etc)

I think that 3 is ridiculous. Implementing admin oversight for a chaplain, who most of the time is a meme character, is silly.

2 has some promise. I feel like antagonists should have several paths to win, and players should have several paths to defeat them. Making the chaplain a choke point is a legitimate complaint.

I also don't really see much problem with 1, if only because the amount of complaint received over this issue is smaller than several other outstanding issues, though I'd really prefer, again, that multiple paths be available for both antags and regular players.

[J_Madison]

I don't even validhunt what are you on about
I have the lowest kill ratios of hos players on team antag


I just don't want to feel like I could do a better job playing chaplain and hos on two screens at the same time.

Like it's my duty to do to you what you want to do to me - convert you to my side.

[kevinz000]

Eh, I feel like chaplain is one of those chill civilian roles that have a roleplay side to it whatever that means to you.
It shouldn't be strictly regulated.
As for the balance of gamemodes being balanced around the dude.
Well what can I say, pray to RNG. Some chaplains are incompetent and nearly insane while others are security players and do exactly what security does.

[D&B]

I feel there should be shorter ways of having a reliable source of holy water rather than make chaplains a more restricted role.

Else we have cases were you're just forced to massacre depaetments because one cultist was from there.

[Lazengann]

Step one: Plant melons
Step two: Dump mutagen on it until they're holy melons
Step three: Unwrench the tray and move it to Sec

[D&B]

Meanwhile
>Blood cult has caught you alone in botany and stun paper you
>If you're with backup they just assault the brig because now sec is down x amount of officers for meme melons

>Clock cult has set meme sigils on the doors to get you as you step out
>Or a culted Borg has just bolted you in and syphoned you.

>While you're dealing with getting into chemistry, the cult multiplies
>While you're making mutagen, cult multiplies
>While you're playing the RnG lottery for the mutation and stats, the cult multiplies

Deconversion and securement is already an awful lot of steps, and pretending that adding more steps is a non issue is stupid

[Wyzack]

Here is an idea

Remove both cults because they are shitty and unfun, the players voted them as the least favorite game modes and their very existence makes the rest of the game worse by forcing stupid wide-impacting design decisions.

[feem]

Turning a job that's important in less than 10% of total rounds played into an essential/time-based/heavy-admin-oversight role isn't stupid? There are other options.

[D&B]

Sure, but it's either slog through shit, or shoot the shit out of them, and one of them puts you into admins bad faith, and the other one is a tedious hell.

[captain sawrge]

just remove cult

[captain sawrge]

motherfuckers get so up in arms trying to come up with ways to treat the symptoms instead of just cutting out the infection.

[feem]

I don't think asking players to grow something is unreasonable. In the event of a missing/dead/irrational chaplain, it would be security's job to secure botany, the same way they already (sometimes, if they feel like it) secure cargo for revolution. I also suggested, and I think it's been suggested before, that maybe holy water could be made available via cargo in a bulk package instead of just the religious supplies crate (which is already available).

This isn't a game about being comfy and you have to adapt to the situations presented.

[Grazyn]

Add a real botany sec guard instead of just the joke armband

[bandit]

If we banned for incompetence 90% of the server would be permabanned immediately.

maybe we should start

[onleavedontatme]

Having a civillian player who is expected to doodle with crayons on the floor in 8/10 round types and in fact will catch shit from security/admins for "validhunting" and then having that player be round critical with important mechanics hard locked behind them being a cooperative "validhunter" is a design problem more than an individual player problem I think.

[ShadowDimentio]

We had this conversation a while ago but just killing the cultist is always on the table and is very effective