Drones and power sinks

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:02 pm #332459

My personal feeling is that in the absence of a being clearly interacting with the powersink, the drone should remove or isolate the powersink.

The drone's laws state:
Your goals are to build, maintain, repair, improve, and power to the best of your abilities, You must never actively work against these goals.


And the wiki page for Drones goes on to clarify:

Law 3 gives your mandate: station upkeep. This is not the same as prevention! Upkeep can include repairing hull breaches, cleaning bloodstains or vandalism, repairing power issues, and generally what a Station Engineer or Janitor never does. This is intentionally somewhat broad. For example, setting up the solars is definitely okay. Building a fort in maintenance is probably okay. Dragging around the nuclear authentication disk like a party train is not okay. And interacting with living beings in the process is never okay. If you see an active bomb, you leave it alone. There is no damage yet after all. Once it goes off, the station is damaged and only then does your third law come into play. Use common sense or get banned.


Now, while the case law for bombs/nukes/etc is pretty clear cut, disabling/isolating a powersink isn't *prevention*, its active upkeep. Part of your drone objectives is to keep the station powered, and the powersink is obviously not allowing this.

No amount of additional power is going to satisfy the powersink, until it explodes (at which point you need to repair the damage, obviously), and per our general Rules:

Rule 2 wrote:Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists


So the drone knows the powersink is:

a) Draining power
b) Cannot be satisfied
c) Is an active detriment to keeping the station powered

With this in mind, I'm of the opinion they should be allowed to isolate it from the powernet, if not remove it entirely. Not just for general drone reasons, but also because the "counter" to powersinks is the Engineering forces of the station, which as well as Engiborgs and Engineering staff, also includes drones.

A traitor should be aware of and deal with the automated forces of the drones, if he wants his powersink to remain active, not be given a OOC free pass while the drones are forced to ignore their Law 3 and Rule 2 privileges and pretend they can't see the powersink.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Cobby » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:03 pm #332460

Drones are the shittiest role tbh, I don't understand why they exist when their whole premise is "touch the round BUT NOT TOO MUCH!"
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:04 pm #332461

It's always sad to see people rules lawyer ghost roles, especially in the case of Drones. The old lawset was flavor text explaining how you're a unimportant little machine that slowly maintains, fixes or upgrades parts of the station independant to events of the shift. The spirit of a ghost role drone was always fairly clear: it's not a second chance to live in the round, you are little machine doing work on the station in the background, you aren't supposed to impact the round in any serious manner. Unfortunately people kept arguing the lawset so it got replaced with big OOC text telling you not to mess with critical objects like bodies, traitor items or weapons.

A powersink is very clearly a critical object. It only exists when a traitor spawns it and it's purpose is always to sabotage the station's power supply. Interacting with it is clearly undoing a traitors sabotage and impacting their round. Same for seeing someone break things really, clearly someone is acting towards some end (like getting into the Captain's Quarters) so the correct response would be to move along as though you saw nothing and if you must come back in 5-10 minutes and fix the hole when it no longer impacts that player.

It isn't especially hard to understand drones as repair bots working in the background and understand ghost roles (with exception of antags) aren't there as a second life on the station. They fit a little niche for bored ghosts to play. So be a drone that wires the solars, or works on some project by escape. Fix broken windows around the ship patch long standing damage. Don't be that drone that immediately repairs a emagged/hacked APC to fuck with the AI, or that drone who immediately fixes the SM after a traitor sets it to blow.

It's fair to want clarification on sabotage damage though. Using the powersink as a example I wasn't completely sure it's ok for a drone to try and fix the power issue though other means. Something like C4 or Thermite damage seems a bit more clear that you don't immediately fix those problems because some player clearly did those intentionally. Still, I feel the spirit of Drones shouldn't be too hard to understand.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:13 pm #332467

Gigapuddi420 wrote:It's always sad to see people rules lawyer ghost roles, especially in the case of Drones. The old lawset was flavor text explaining how you're a unimportant little machine that slowly maintains, fixes or upgrades parts of the station independant to events of the shift. The spirit of a ghost role drone was always fairly clear: it's not a second chance to live in the round, you are little machine doing work on the station in the background, you aren't supposed to impact the round in any serious manner. Unfortunately people kept arguing the lawset so it got replaced with big OOC text telling you not to mess with critical objects like bodies, traitor items or weapons.

A powersink is very clearly a critical object. It only exists when a traitor spawns it and it's purpose is always to sabotage the station's power supply. Interacting with it is clearly undoing a traitors sabotage and impacting their round. Same for seeing someone break things really, clearly someone is acting towards some end (like getting into the Captain's Quarters) so the correct response would be to move along as though you saw nothing and if you must come back in 5-10 minutes and fix the hole when it no longer impacts that player.

It isn't especially hard to understand drones as repair bots working in the background and understand ghost roles (with exception of antags) aren't there as a second life on the station. They fit a little niche for bored ghosts to play. So be a drone that wires the solars, or works on some project by escape. Fix broken windows around the ship patch long standing damage. Don't be that drone that immediately repairs a emagged/hacked APC to fuck with the AI, or that drone who immediately fixes the SM after a traitor sets it to blow.

It's fair to want clarification on sabotage damage though. Using the powersink as a example I wasn't completely sure it's ok for a drone to try and fix the power issue though other means. Something like C4 or Thermite damage seems a bit more clear that you don't immediately fix those problems because some player clearly did those intentionally. Still, I feel the spirit of Drones shouldn't be too hard to understand.


I see what you're saying regarding the "spirit" of the role, and I don't think anyone is arguing for second life privileges, but drones are always going to be contentious as a ghost role that affects the station, as Cobbly puts it "Touch the round but not too much!"

However, I do think you have to step away from solely the drone's PoV and also look at it from the other staff's PoV, where drones are a potential asset in the engineering needs of the station. I worry that if we lean too hard on trying to avoid them "touching too much!" that we neuter them as an option for resource investment and they become less and less played because no one cares to build their shells.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Nilons » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:22 pm #332473

It should be no despite the drones laws because that's stupid and gay. Fucking with an antag's round directly as a drone is against the spirit of them wholeheartedly even if you can rules lawyer that its ok.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby feem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:27 pm #332477

A traitor placed the power sink. The power sink, if active, is actively functioning on behalf of the traitor, who is acting on the round.

By interfering with the power sink as a drone, you are interfering with a being.

This is distinct from fixing a broken system, or a malfunctioning reactor, IF AND ONLY IF you have neither witnessed the intentional, willful destruction or sabotage of same by a being. If you HAVE seen a being causing the broken system, or there are still beings wandering around and working on the system, then get your ass out of there.

You get to fix shit that you didn't see anyone break, after it's broken; you get to improve and build the station out; we generally allow you to go around nonharmfully, non-interactively cleaning up messes (that means don't wet floors or set off cleaning grenades, but you're welcome to use an upgraded janicart or backpack with space cleaner).

You get to do an awful lot, but you don't get to interfere with something someone else is intentionally doing. If you have even the slightest uncertainty about this, either ahelp to ask for clarification about it or don't play drone. There's basically no leeway here.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:29 pm #332478

It would be nice if Drones could be more of a asset to the Engineering team, but ghost roles on the whole mean you have to be strict on what they can and cannot do. Sure it can be argued that a active drone impacts a round a little just by doing things (like setting the Solars so the station doens't run out of power) but the line has to be drawn at how much they impact antagonists and loyalists trying to acheive things. We used to give them laws and they got argued to death.

Under old laws I saw a drone going around fixing a malfunctioning AIs hacked APCs as it hacked them. It was clearly against the spirit of what a drone is and isn't allowed to do so they got tightened up. I think drones generally shouldn't run afoul of any admins if they just try to understand their position both IC and OOC and avoid ruining some traitors round. Sometimes they might repair sabotage by accident and I've seen admins previously just subtle message drones that do to tell them to restore the sabotage without taking it any further. The key is to fix, repair, maintain the station without really ruining someone elses round. That hasn't really changed but some people abuse what little you give them to make them do more. I don't want to see drones removed and I'm not sure how we can make it much clearly without making silicon policy level rules for the poor guys. Seems like people should just try and get the idea into their heads not to fuck with someones round.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:41 pm #332485

And while its a nice sentiment, it quickly runs into the "But not too much!" issue. Is fixing blown lights "ruining someones round" if unbeknownst to them the traitor is using the dark to ambush people/theres a shadowling around?

What if they repair a bomb hole which the traitor created in order to try and force a shuttle call?

Again, I totally understand the sentiment behind having them, but I worry that we're leaning too heavily on "NO DON'T DO THINGS THAT MIGHT IMPACT THE ROUND" to the point where they might as well not exist on the main station.

feem wrote:A traitor placed the power sink. The power sink, if active, is actively functioning on behalf of the traitor, who is acting on the round.

By interfering with the power sink as a drone, you are interfering with a being.

This is distinct from fixing a broken system, or a malfunctioning reactor, IF AND ONLY IF you have neither witnessed the intentional, willful destruction or sabotage of same by a being. If you HAVE seen a being causing the broken system, or there are still beings wandering around and working on the system, then get your ass out of there.


So if a drone sees a being (for example a gorilla or hulk) smashing around the station its then forever forbidden from repairing that damage? This seems a far stray from what the original intent for drones and beings was, which wasn't "avoid beings or stuff they touch" but "beings literally do not exist as far as you are concerned", and makes it really questionable how a drone can repair anything but the most incidental stuff.

If as a drone, I find a damaged cable in maint and a fried mouse next to it, am I now totally forbidden from repairing that cable because a being clearly is/was involved with it?

I realise these are all drifting off the point of the OP, but my point is that we risk becoming too prescriptive with what drones can and can't do for fear of them "ruining a someone's round", and as such neutering them as a fun, harmless ghost role.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:42 pm #332488

Double post to address a different point but:

non-interactively cleaning up messes (that means don't wet floors[...]


Since when has that been a thing? That seems really awfully over the top
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Cobby » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:43 pm #332489

Arianya wrote:to the point where they might as well not exist on the main station.


That's lowkey the goal.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby feem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:48 pm #332491

Drones cannot impact someone else's round experience except indirectly. That's the purpose of their laws, and the rule we generally enforce.

You can repair damage as long as it's been long enough for the person who caused the damage to have benefitted from it. If there's a massive hull breach caused by a bomb, you can PROBABLY get away with proactively going to repair it, but if the person who caused the hull breach is still around you should probably run away.

If someone's breaking into something actively, you aren't allowed to prevent them from doing it or fix the glass as they're breaking it.

You can repair broken wires. You just can't knowingly interfere within temporal or physical proximity to an event caused by an actor or the actor themselves.

It's basically Rule 1.

And, no, wetting floors means you're slipping people. If you're slipping people, you're fucking with the round. I've seen way too many drones say "BUT I WAS JUST CLEANING!!!" when they're cleaning bloodstains during a nukeops attack or when they set off cleaning grenades on the shuttle.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Dax Dupont » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:49 pm #332492

Copypasting the drone's BIG BOLD LAWS you get when you spawn:
DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ROUND AS A DRONE OR YOU WILL BE DRONE BANNED
Drones are a ghost role that are allowed to fix the station and build things. Interfering with the round as a drone is against the rules.
Actions that constitute interference include, but are not limited to:
- Interacting with round critical objects (IDs, weapons, contraband, powersinks, bombs, etc.)
- Interacting with living beings (communication, attacking, healing, etc.)
- Interacting with non-living beings (dragging bodies, looting bodies, etc.)
These rules are at admin discretion and will be heavily enforced.
If you do not have the regular drone laws, follow your laws to the best of your ability.

See https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... dm#L72-L79
Last edited by Dax Dupont on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:50 pm #332494

Perhaps the traitor should put more effort into hiding the powersink when deploying it.

On a technical sense I think Drones should be prevented from interacting with active Power Sinks, I can fully understand the arguments for allowing the Drone to interact, but the spirit of Drones is to avoid interacting with the greater events of the round as much as possible.

Now if a Drone were to rearrange the wire grid which, by chance, happens to direct the powersink to only drain power from one room on the station, I think that would be teetering on the edge, so I won't comment.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby imblyings » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:56 pm #332497

can a drone 're-arrange' the atmos pipes to make sure a plasma flood hits less rooms?

no

for simplicity's sake and while it would be interesting for a drone to rewire the station so a powersink doesn't affect the station so badly, it would be more clear-cut to just make it a blanket no because you have smart girls like steelpoint here who might make it so a powersink is never touched but only drains power from one room. Loading extra power into the grid is fine though.

This thread and the precedent above is now in the rules, subject to possible future change.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:56 pm #332498

Arianya wrote:And while its a nice sentiment, it quickly runs into the "But not too much!" issue. Is fixing blown lights "ruining someones round" if unbeknownst to them the traitor is using the dark to ambush people/theres a shadowling around?

What if they repair a bomb hole which the traitor created in order to try and force a shuttle call?


Repairing damage after it's done, and repairing damage while its being done are two different things. I concede that you are still interfering with their sabotage, but if you weren't aware of that then you can't be held fully accountable. The only grey area I see on drones is fixing sabotage, most the time it seems like enough to just not fix any obvious sabotage or at least wait a while before doing so. Most drones I see getting banned or in trouble are ones blatantly breaking the drones laws like moving bodies or carrying a weapon. In this case I think powersinks are actually described in the OOC text you get as critical round objects so again, it a clear case of don't do that.

If you don't know something is sabotage and start to fix it, I don't think you'll get in much trouble. It's the blatant shit that really seems to bring people to hate drones.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby feem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:57 pm #332499

I love drones, I just wish people would follow the rules

a good drone round is usually how i chill out after getting salty

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:02 pm #332502

AdAstraPerAspera wrote:Copypasting the drone's BIG BOLD LAWS you get when you spawn:
- Interacting with round critical objects (IDs, weapons, contraband, powersinks, bombs, etc.)


The below is more the question at hand:

Steelpoint wrote:Now if a Drone were to rearrange the wire grid which, by chance, happens to direct the powersink to only drain power from one room on the station, I think that would be teetering on the edge, so I won't comment.





feem wrote:If there's a massive hull breach caused by a bomb, you can PROBABLY get away with proactively going to repair it, but if the person who caused the hull breach is still around you should probably run away.


This seems at odds with the Drone's own laws (which specify non-interaction as opposed to avoidance) and the Drone's own wiki page which specifically says:

This does not mean you have to go out of your way to avoid living beings; they simply do not exist to you.





And, no, wetting floors means you're slipping people. If you're slipping people, you're fucking with the round. I've seen way too many drones say "BUT I WAS JUST CLEANING!!!" when they're cleaning bloodstains during a nukeops attack or when they set off cleaning grenades on the shuttle.


Even if putting up signs? Because again, this seems really majorly over the top ruling for a role that is specifically intended to maintain the station (and may not have a steady supply of drying powder/space cleaner, given how touchy chemists are about their workplace)




imblyings wrote:can a drone 're-arrange' the atmos pipes to make sure a plasma flood hits less rooms?

no

for simplicity's sake and while it would be interesting for a drone to rewire the station so a powersink doesn't affect the station so badly, it would be more clear-cut to just make it a blanket no because you have smart girls like steelpoint here who might make it so a powersink is never touched but only drains power from one room. Loading extra power into the grid is fine though.


Oranges and apples to a certain extent given that the plasma flood isn't inherently "unmaintaining" the station. The lit plasma flood might but thats a degree of seperation where the powersink is directly draining power.




Gigapuddi420 wrote:
Arianya wrote:And while its a nice sentiment, it quickly runs into the "But not too much!" issue. Is fixing blown lights "ruining someones round" if unbeknownst to them the traitor is using the dark to ambush people/theres a shadowling around?

What if they repair a bomb hole which the traitor created in order to try and force a shuttle call?


Repairing damage after it's done, and repairing damage while its being done are two different things. I concede that you are still interfering with their sabotage, but if you weren't aware of that then you can't be held fully accountable. The only grey area I see on drones is fixing sabotage, most the time it seems like enough to just not fix any obvious sabotage or at least wait a while before doing so. Most drones I see getting banned or in trouble are ones blatantly breaking the drones laws like moving bodies or carrying a weapon. In this case I think powersinks are actually described in the OOC text you get as critical round objects so again, it a clear case of don't do that.

If you don't know something is sabotage and start to fix it, I don't think you'll get in much trouble. It's the blatant shit that really seems to bring people to hate drones.


Per the above, while I can see the pretty clear ruling as far as touching the powersink directly, this doesn't cover rewiring the station around it.

And its fair to say that most drone bans are dumb overt shit like carrying around a tazer, but its worrying to have a divide between what the rules/wiki say and what sitting admins think.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby feem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:07 pm #332503

If you are interfering with other players, you will be drone banned.

This is not complex.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:11 pm #332505

its worrying to have a divide between what the rules/wiki say and what sitting admins think.


Sort of, my impression of drones is that the only ones really getting in trouble are the ones going well beyond their laws. Clarification would be helpful, but the spirit of the role seems fairly clear. You have to really annoy someone to get bwoinked for doing your job as a drone at which point you're probably failing the part of a drone where you do work in the background without getting much attention. This could just by my impression though, if there is a real problem with people getting in trouble for following drone laws then it might need more work. I just suspect the only problems we have with drones are from people who clearly don't get that drones are a passive ghost role.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby kevinz000 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:06 pm #332593

Pardon my absolutely insulting not very constructive impatience but
I'm shocked that this was even a question.
Traitor invests 8tc(?) into item and goes through effort to hide it.
Drone who isn't supposed to interfere with anyone doesn't get to remove, sabotage, hinder, or otherwise disrupt said object.
Like everyone else(?) said.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby bman » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:24 pm #332601

feem wrote:If you are interfering with other players, you will be drone banned.

This is not complex.

this is more complex than you think since literally every move in the game might interfere with another player's round, that's where the third and fourth dimensions of drone laws come in and the reason why people try to snake around or through the laws.
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:24 pm #332603

The policy is cut and dry, you dont mess with the powersink outside of increasing power output. But here is how I approach it from a roleplay perspective.

The powersink isnt sabotage from a drones perspective, it is a machine that the humans built that needs power, you dont isolate a machine from the grid just because it needs more power than other machines, you improve the grid by increasing power output to match demand.

If you dont metagame as a drone, it becomes significantly easier to follow the rules around them. Think like a little robot and you act like it.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby feem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:28 pm #332607

bman wrote:
feem wrote:If you are interfering with other players, you will be drone banned.

This is not complex.

this is more complex than you think since literally every move in the game might interfere with another player's round, that's where the third and fourth dimensions of drone laws come in and the reason why people try to snake around or through the laws.


My nuanced descriptions of the way the policy is applied (earlier in the thread) weren't being listened to, so I simplified it.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:35 pm #332610

A good rule to live by is if anyone(such as a traitor) can complain about your actions then you're doing something wrong as a drone

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby RandomMarine » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:47 pm #332756

Lazengann wrote:A good rule to live by is if anyone(such as a traitor) can complain about your actions then you're doing something wrong as a drone


This needs to be more strongly emphasized.

As a drone, you are nobody's opponent and nobody's ally.
You patch up damage or do construction projects and do your best to do so without stepping on anybody's toes.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:59 pm #332764

>Solve OOC debate by asking admins on if someone can do something

>Admins simply answer "Don't do it"

>Someone makes a 2 page thread on why they should be allowed to do it anyway
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:16 am #332788

CosmicScientist wrote:There's a two page thread? We're at 28 posts as of this one and it's 50 a page.

Yes I'm sad for knowing that.

Keep ignoring what yakumo meant by that and keep focusing on specifics.

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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:22 am #332790

CosmicScientist wrote:Try better bait, Kev or a better mood.

if im browsing tg forums i'm already to otired to do anything else other than look at drama.
the only time i'm actually expending a good amoutn of effort to post is in fnr because it's supposed to be official. minus certain policy threads like this.

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imblyings
 
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby imblyings » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:39 am #332799

Dr_bee wrote:The powersink isnt sabotage from a drones perspective, it is a machine that the humans built that needs power.


Lmao but yes
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.

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cedarbridge
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:04 am #332803

Yakumo_Chen wrote:>Solve OOC debate by asking admins on if someone can do something

>Admins simply answer "Don't do it"

>Someone makes a 2 page thread on why they should be allowed to do it anyway

Its the worst kind of rules lawyering. Question is asked and answered. Now lets grind through a zillion "what about if" scenarios that don't actually change the rule and exist only to be slightly different from the original case and wait a contrary ruling from an admin not paying attention in the thread.

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Arianya
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:08 am #332834

cedarbridge wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:>Solve OOC debate by asking admins on if someone can do something

>Admins simply answer "Don't do it"

>Someone makes a 2 page thread on why they should be allowed to do it anyway

Its the worst kind of rules lawyering. Question is asked and answered. Now lets grind through a zillion "what about if" scenarios that don't actually change the rule and exist only to be slightly different from the original case and wait a contrary ruling from an admin not paying attention in the thread.


>People are using Policy Discussion to discuss Policy! The horror!

Stop being quite so condescending about it, please, it wasn't cute in Discord and its certainly not cute here.




feem wrote:
bman wrote:
feem wrote:If you are interfering with other players, you will be drone banned.

This is not complex.

this is more complex than you think since literally every move in the game might interfere with another player's round, that's where the third and fourth dimensions of drone laws come in and the reason why people try to snake around or through the laws.


My nuanced descriptions of the way the policy is applied (earlier in the thread) weren't being listened to, so I simplified it.


I don't see how pointing out that what you were saying and the laws/wiki say were at odds is "not being listened to".
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

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cedarbridge
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:52 am #332843

Arianya wrote:Stop being quite so condescending about it, please, it wasn't cute in Discord and its certainly not cute here.

Image

I'm sorry your feelings are so easily hurt by simple answers to simple questions.

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Arianya
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Re: Drones and power sinks

Postby Arianya » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:27 am #332847

Image

Obviously I meant the other one though, yeah
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Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg


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