Elections, campaigning and ooc: The final decision.

[MrStonedOne]

So it's about time to address the elephant in the room.

Goofball has gotten some flack for "campaigning" in ooc lately. And by flack, I mean mutes and kicks and (i think) threats of bans.

At 7am GMT monday, the elections ends, but one lingering question remains in my mind. Where is the line.

While goofball is getting muted from ooc for shilling for votes, in other elections candidates have abused their ability to utilize html enabled admin tools to campaign in big bold text. One candidate even popularizing the phrase "remember: put me up top, and goofball down on the bottom" by shilling using admin announce and ooc.

At the end of the day, I want the elections to be ran as unbiasedly as possible. Flaky rules subject to discretion are not unbiased. For the election, and where the lines are for ooc vote shilling, I want to create sharp well defined lines in the sand that can not be subjected to selective enforceful on the whims of admin biases.

As much as I and just about all of the admin team does not like the idea of goofball as headmin, this dislike should not be able to influence his ability to run for headmin in the player election.

So my question to you, for this thread: Where should the line be drawn.

How should we decide how much ooc shilling is too much? Should we even care? Should we forbid the use of admin tools like admin announce or injecting html into ooc messages for election shilling. What about if non-running admins use it to shill for the candidates they like?

[onleavedontatme]

I think anyone bothered by OOC messages should use the (little known) personal mute function.

As long as it isn't turning into full on spam (nobody else can read the game/chat) admins probably shouldn't be intervening.

[DrPillzRedux]

Admins who use their powers to shill should be removed.

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

You guys can't even keep an election for a fucking free 2D game sensible.

[MrAlphonzo]

I've been kicking anybody who shills for their campaign in OOC. But I am yet to see a fellow admin shilling for themselves/somebody else or doing the same with admin tools.
I'd kick them too.

Not only is it just shitty, but it just turns OOC into a toxic mess that will eventually reach such levels of instability it'd have to be muted for an extended period of time.

I never liked the idea of admin endorsements, and I don't think admins should be misleading players into thinking "Shitty admong #7 likes this dude so I better vote for him without even reading his campaign thread." Especially with large and obnoxious admin tools.


I suppose announcing you're running over OOC and linking your thread is fine and dandy but when you keep going on and on and on about it, it should stop there.

[J_Madison]

pay up if you want to advertise

[iamgoofball]

The forums are only 15% of the playerbase.

Are you telling me I can't talk to players who are actually involved with the game at this very moment? Don't you think they should get to talk to their candidates?

[captain sawrge]

I've been kicking anybody who shills for their campaign in OOC. But I am yet to see a fellow admin shilling for themselves/somebody else or doing the same with admin tools.
I'd kick them too.

Not only is it just shitty, but it just turns OOC into a toxic mess that will eventually reach such levels of instability it'd have to be muted for an extended period of time.

I never liked the idea of admin endorsements, and I don't think admins should be misleading players into thinking "Shitty admong #7 likes this dude so I better vote for him without even reading his campaign thread." Especially with large and obnoxious admin tools.


I suppose announcing you're running over OOC and linking your thread is fine and dandy but when you keep going on and on and on about it, it should stop there.

People can be ignored, OOC can be locally muted.

[D&B]

If admins are using tools to make fuck hueg text in order to shill that seems like an abuse of admin powers and should go in a complaint, no?

[iamgoofball]

If admins are using tools to make fuck hueg text in order to shill that seems like an abuse of admin powers and should go in a complaint, no?

Why would the admins internally punish people for trying to make sure that candidates they don't like don't get elected?

[MrStonedOne]

I don't know if it happened in this election, but it's happened in past elections.

[Deitus]

my two cents are this

goof should be outright banned from the elections, and people that show his behavior in the future should as well.

behavior such as:
-coding for votes. goof and everyone else can twist themselves up in all the wording and semantics of "suggesting" code to him, but here's the thing: goof knows exactly what he's doing. admins know exactly what he's doing. everyone knows goddamn well EXACTLY what he's doing, and the line-toeing here is basically as mature as a kindergartner sticking a finger in your face and saying "IM NOT TOUCHING YOU IM NOT TOUCHING YOU," but worse, as he has said that "a testmerge is on the table." its time we address this and hold him responsible.

-goof has come into the servers and done little more than stir shit up by mudslinging at other candidates and then playing victim when he is told to stop ("THE CRUMBLING INFRASTRUCTURE IS SILENCING ME oh yeah vote goof!") furthermore, he has lied about endorsements and brought in people from other servers to shill/vote for him who would otherwise not know about, much less be involved with, the election. this is all not mentioning as well the generalized shitposting and shitstirring he has shown to continually do in other candidates threads, as well as private messaging them to drop out so he can have the votes.

here's the thing: goof can do some things well. but him doing one or two good things does NOT make up for the massive amounts of immaturity, abuse of power, and overall lack of common goddamn sense that he HAS and CONTINUALLY exhibited throughout his time here in everything from PR's (posting literal joke PR's, posting bleeding assholes in ones he wants closed, as well as LITERALLY stating he codes for himself and his friends and has NO interest in balance/bugfixing), the forums (previously mentioned lack of maturity as well as lack of seriousness in his own election thread when asked what he would accomplish in an administrative position and to account for his own wrongdoings), and in-game (previously mentioned abuse of power and abrasiveness to the community at large).

i guess my point is this: to be perfectly frank, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO TELL GOOF TO FUCK OFF? if not for the outright rule breaking not only in the election but on many other fronts, he at the VERY least does not show the integrity that should be in the spirit of the election.

im sure goof will come in and make some random ad hominem attack or say im a professional hater or whatever he can parrot like he has been in his thread, but my opinion stands: ban from election running (if not from /tg/ outright) until he has proven, over a LONG period of time, that he can act like a goddamn adult.

EDIT: mso, i dont know if you've been following the shitshow of his election thread, but i would suggest you take the time to read through it to show exactly why i made this post.

also:

If admins are using tools to make fuck hueg text in order to shill that seems like an abuse of admin powers and should go in a complaint, no?

Why would the admins internally punish people for trying to make sure that candidates they don't like don't get elected?

for someone who was so quick to say "WHY DIDNT YOU MAKE A COMPLAINT THREAD ABOUT ME ABUSING POWER ON YOU DEITUS I GUESS IT DIDNT MATTER HUH??", you sure dont seem to make complaint threads yourself. almost seems like you know you'd get proven wrong, hm?

you really need to decide whether you think the admins are too incompetent to run the server or masterminds of deception that run a shadow government behind the playerbase's backs.

[MrStonedOne]

also:

If admins are using tools to make fuck hueg text in order to shill that seems like an abuse of admin powers and should go in a complaint, no?

Why would the admins internally punish people for trying to make sure that candidates they don't like don't get elected?

for someone who was so quick to say "WHY DIDNT YOU MAKE A COMPLAINT THREAD ABOUT ME ABUSING POWER ON YOU DEITUS I GUESS IT DIDNT MATTER HUH??", you sure dont seem to make complaint threads yourself. almost seems like you know you'd get proven wrong, hm?

To be entirely fair to goof, I feel like I should point out he didn't because goof has been banned from the entire fnr section since november. he only recently was able to appeal that to get me to remove the ban.

[onleavedontatme]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

[Deitus]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

it is, but i think there's a difference between promising something for the community at large and promising something for to individual people specifically in exchange for votes.

To be entirely fair to goof, I feel like I should point out he didn't because goof has been banned from the entire fnr section since november. he only recently was able to appeal that to get me to remove the ban.

isnt that just because he kept getting banned for stupid shit and then came to whine about it in robustin-tier essays?

[bandit]

Does all this shilling actually affect anything? (This is a serious question, I have even less way of knowing this than the little that people with the actual data do.)

[MrAlphonzo]

I've been kicking anybody who shills for their campaign in OOC. But I am yet to see a fellow admin shilling for themselves/somebody else or doing the same with admin tools.
I'd kick them too.

Not only is it just shitty, but it just turns OOC into a toxic mess that will eventually reach such levels of instability it'd have to be muted for an extended period of time.

I never liked the idea of admin endorsements, and I don't think admins should be misleading players into thinking "Shitty admong #7 likes this dude so I better vote for him without even reading his campaign thread." Especially with large and obnoxious admin tools.


I suppose announcing you're running over OOC and linking your thread is fine and dandy but when you keep going on and on and on about it, it should stop there.

People can be ignored, OOC can be locally muted.

You can say the same thing about IC in OOC.

EDIT: Shit Owegno was right.

[Owegno]

IC in OOC is (an attempt at) cheating. Someone telling people to vote for them has no effect on the game.

[DrPillzRedux]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

Promising things to a specific person before being elected (goods, positions, etc) is against the law in the US.

[onleavedontatme]

Does all this shilling actually affect anything? (This is a serious question, I have even less way of knowing this than the little that people with the actual data do.)

Every study of real life politics and advertising would suggest yes. Name recognition is a huge deal.

[oranges]

The previous player headmins who won were usually extremely prominently involved in the server day to day, with very high connection counts.

That pattern continues to bear out.

[Cobby]

The forums are only 15% of the playerbase.

Are you telling me I can't talk to players who are actually involved with the game at this very moment? Don't you think they should get to talk to their candidates?

If the only way people know you is a "Vote for me haha " oneliner in OOC then perhaps there's greater problems that are regardless of whether we ban shilling or not.

[DrPillzRedux]

Maybe Oranges should host some official voice interviews where people can submit questions or something?

makes u think

[PKPenguin321]

Using admin tools to promote yourself with hueg text seems pretty lame

Flooding OOC to promote yourself is lame (but an occasional 1 or 2 lines saying "vote for me" or whatever are probably fine, more so if the current discussion in OOC gives context to it)

If you do these lame things, you should stop. That is what I think

[Arianya]

Shilling/occasional promoting yourself in OOC seems okay so long as admin tools aren't being abused, though whether Admin OOC colours count as admin tools is a whole 'nother bag of worms.

• (I'd probably suggest limiting it to once per round or something similar, possibly per candidate to avoid "brigading" OOC though that gets messy fast)

Shitslinging/mudthrowing in OOC as a means of "campaigning" should be banned outright and be punishable with bans/OOC mutes if repeated. It makes the server look bad and its a fundamentally uncounterable tactic, given the mercurial nature of OOC and talking behind people's backs

• As goof himself notes, there is a large proportion of people who don't read the forums, to them OOC and *maybe* github is the main centers of the community. We shouldn't have toxic and frankly immature insults being thrown around where the affected people have little to no chance of being able to respond or disprove the allegations

Promising favours, whether its code PRs, testmerges, bans of specific players or anything else in that vein should be banned.

• The difference between a favour and a stance is that a favour is a very targeted, personal bribery attempt where a stance is a more general offer to the community at large.
• This obviously includes the inevitable rules-lawyering and toeing of the line that would inevitably ensue.
• And yes Kor, if you walk up to voters and offer them cash to vote for you in the real world you get in trouble for that, its called election fraud.

[DemonFiren]

I'd say any offers that only affect, apply and extend to your voters (and require you to prove you voted in a specific way) should result in you being told - or better: made - to fuck off.
Headmin policies must be universal and also be valid for those who did not support you.

[kevinz000]

advertising your campaign should be fine.
shitstirring against others/administration to boost your campaign shouldn't.
using admin powers to do any of the above definitely shouldn't as the other candidates will likely not have/won't use things like global narrate to make huge text to promote themselves.
people bribing others with favors for votes *cough goofball cough* definitely shouldn't be fine.

and on an off topic note on the ooc color, i sometimes deadmin/stealthmin if i'm going to get into a dumb 20 minute shitstorm in OOC because yes, people do tend to notice and listen to colored text names because it's a symbol/indication of administration.

[Qbopper]

Just make it so that

-using ooc to say "hi vote for me" and maybe some discussion if people reply is fine, because whatever, who cares
-spamming ooc is against the rules (like it already is)
-spending significant amounts of time not even playing the game and just talking in ooc about you running for headmin is against the rules
-using admin tools/prs/anything beyond regular old ooc is against the rules

[Grazyn]

Also to pour cold water, or I suppose hot water, on the poured cold water of "There's a mute OOC button", I assume this is talking about when OOC has been abused to the point an admin decided to intervene

You can mute OOC on your own, no need for an admin

[DemonFiren]

Also to pour cold water, or I suppose hot water, on the poured cold water of "There's a mute OOC button", I assume this is talking about when OOC has been abused to the point an admin decided to intervene

You can mute OOC on your own, no need for an admin

One day while Andy was masturbating, Woody got wood. He could no longer help himself! He watched as Andy stroked his juicy kawaii cock. He approached Andy which startled him and make him pee everywhere on the floor and on Woody too. Being drenched in his urine made him harder than ever! Woody: "Andy Senpai! I'm alive and I want to be INSIDE OF YOU." Andy: "Oh Woody Chan! I always knew you were alive! I want to stuff you up my kawaii ass!" Woody grabbed a bunch of flavored lube and rubbed it all over his head Woody: "Oh my! It's cherry flavored lube! Cherry is my favorite! Woody then stuffed his head up into Andy's tight ass! The other toys around the room watched intently as Woody shoved his head back and forth into Andy's nice ass, continuously making a squishy wet noise. The other toys also became aroused and they all gathered around Woody and Andy and started to urinate all over them, and then they started to masturbate. Andy: "Oh my goodness, Woody Chan! You are churning my insides up so well! Your nose is stimulating my prostate! OH YES! All the other toys became so aroused by this, that they could not help themselves anymore! They pushed Woody completely inside, and they all went inside. All of them wanted to be inside Andy's nice round ass. Andy: "No wait guys! My ass cannot hold this much! I'm getting so full! All the toys went inside of poor squirming Andy and pretty much, he was beyond full, and died from having his insides completely damaged. The mother came inside and found Andy, dead with a huge ass hemorrhage on his anus, with a HUGE belly full of toys.

What? You can always put me on your ignore list :^)

Admin edit: Yes this is kind of spam but I won't delete it because he has a point

[Dax Dupont]

The lizzer has a point.

[Grazyn]

Yes, because one line of shitposting in OOC is exactly the same as someone spamming paragraphs. One could just mute OOC as soon as Goof starts talking and voila, you don't have to read all the shitflinging that happens next

[DemonFiren]

You're missing the point that it never was about just one line.

[Grazyn]

Here's a sample of goof campaigning in OOC, the pic was crafted by his detractors so I think it's good enough to represent the kind of "shitposting" people are talking about in this thread.



Those were all short messages and if you muted OOC after the first one you would have been safe from what came next.

[DemonFiren]

So that reduces the argument to "if one person is shitting up OOC everybody else should hold their ears, there's no reason to make that one person shut the fuck up."

[Grazyn]

Holy lizard batman, it was in response to cosmicscientist misinterpreting the "there's a mute ooc button" remark, as if they have to wait for an admin to stop the shitposting when they can actually mute ooc for themselves.

[DemonFiren]

Except Cosmic explicitly mentioned he was talking about times where muting OOC for yourself was no longer sufficient.

I assume this is talking about when OOC has been abused to the point an admin decided to intervene.

[Arianya]

"Mute OOC" is also a poor response to mudslinging/""""jokey insults"""", since the players exposed to it don't know whats true or isn't.

Slightly off topic but I do agree that logging in just to sit in OOC and campaign should be frowned upon. Let alone connecting/disconnecting repeatedly in a single round in order to try and influence stats offered to players as an aid to choosing their candidate(s).

[TheColdTurtle]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

Why the fuck would we want this to actually be like fucking real politics?

[iamgoofball]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

Why the fuck would we want this to actually be like fucking real politics?

Do you want an election or not?

[bandit]

I'm still not convinced this is an election problem rather than just a goofball problem

[cedarbridge]

People who promise something in exchange for votes should be removed.

Isn't that politics though?

Trading sexual favors for votes isn't politics. Its lobbying.

[Qbopper]

"lol just mute them" isn't an argument, if there's genuine discussion going on In ooc and you don't wanna see it then muting is the solution but when something becomes an issue like this it's no longer like that

[captain sawrge]

"lol just mute them" isn't an argument, if there's genuine discussion going on In ooc and you don't wanna see it then muting is the solution but when something becomes an issue like this it's no longer like that

ignore it. if it gets to be spam then it's against server rules and that's when you mute them anyway, campaigning or not

[BeeSting12]

IMO admins should not be allowed to exchange admin-only favours to players for votes because that would be unfair to nonadmins running for candidacy. ie. Doing TC trades for votes, doing events for votes, otherwise using admin powers to shill. Really pretty similar to coders not being able to do code for votes.

If it gets to the point of spam then the player needs a mute and if the issue keeps occuring then maybe disqualification from the election. Honestly saying something like #voterepukan once or twice per round or something like:
"Hey guys I'm running for headmin, here's my thread: (link)" and answering questions relating to the campaign in a civil manner isn't spam and is just appealing to the majority of the playerbase- most players don't use the forums. The trick is, keep it confined to once or twice per round and not shitflinging/insulting in OOC which certain candidates seemed to have issue with.

[imblyings]

They shouldn't be doing things for votes but good adminning done with care is very similar.

[Grazyn]

edit: wrong thread

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I think that

Campaigning in OOC is fine.
Using OOC to shitstir about other candidates makes you a loser who cant win on their own merits and you deserve to be muted
Using admin tools to promote yourself is just sad.

[feem]

I don't think reminding people that you're running is a bad thing. I don't think answering questions when asked about your platform is a bad thing. I don't think that disagreeing with other candidates, or even a certain amount of badmouthing them, is necessarily a bad thing from the rules perspective, though given our circumstances and the need for cooperation it's probably a bad idea for the person engaging in it.

But I do think that making every conversation about you is a bad thing. I do think that engaging admins and playerbases of other servers and outside groups of people to help you with your campaign is a bad thing. I think that stacking votes and being extremely vitriolic and offering favors is a bad thing. I think that attempting to sabotage others' campaigns is a bad thing. And I think that abusing ANY position of power (coder, current admin, what have you) to either silence other candidates or amplify yourself is a bad thing.

I also disagree with any comparisons drawn between this "election" and the spectacle that is the American presidential election cycle. You shouldn't be patterning yourself after that kind of figurehead. As a headmin in our community you work pretty closely with the admins and the players. The only reason you should want to be a headmin is if you actually want to set some policy, make rulings on other admins' behavior, answer a bunch of forum posts on a regular basis, and make general decisions regarding the flow of the player and admin side of the game (as opposed to code).

I also honestly think that being both a dedicated, current coder and a head administrator is something of a conflict of interest if the PRs you're submitting are balance or gamemode/feature changes, because you can then change rules to promote code that you implement, or implement code to justify or expand upon rules that you create.

If we're going to maintain a strict delineation between coderbus and adminbus in terms of direction, then I think it's a bad thing for one person to wear both hats at the same time.

I'm not arguing that coders can't be admins, or that admins can't submit PRs, I'm just saying that the behavior needs to be monitored and level-headed, and in the case of goof we had someone who was making that conflict of interest an integral component of his platform.

Our game is full of salt and tears and salty tears. It's a place of anger and loose justifications. A headmin has to keep all the players' interests in mind, even if the playstyles don't match with what they expect or want. And while admins have to do this, too, admins get to rely on the headmins to make the final call that's going to piss someone off.

So, no, in terms of candidate selection, in my opinion there's a substantial dichotomy between someone who is going to effectively carry out the headmin role and someone who goes out of their way to damage and malign other candidates, abuses systems available to them that aren't available to others to promote their platform, and monopolizes any given conversation with their (even if inapplicable and unenforceable) offers of favoritism in exchange for votes.

[Qbopper]

feem just run for headmin so I can vote for you already

[Cobby]

feem just run for headmin so I can vote for you already

who?