Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

[PathOfChaos1]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Is it okay to execute non-implanted people after a catastrophic event happened? What is the threshold of badness do we have to get to before security's aggression inhibitors are turned off? Can we change policy on revolutionary rounds?

Just recently I was banned as HoS during a revolution round. Link to appeal here.

Spoiler:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14208

The Cobbinator [Excessiveuseofcobby] Had a different opinion on how the situation could have been handled. In the thread we have admin supporting my side, and vice versa. This leaves pretty much an open interpretation when to ban someone by just feeling. In the situation the brig was destroyed. I as HoS made the decision to execute non-implanted crew members. I had previously through out that round. Only executed a Head-rev, and was implanting people never field executing them.

I am aware that when situations get bad security, and heads of staff are allowed to start executing people. I believe that losing the brig to explosions is indeed one of those situations. My personnel investment is that I don't like the note, or the ban I got. I believe that its an honest to god strategy to blow the brig up during rev. It forces the crew to pick a side. Get implanted, or get executed by security. Which fully separates the factions. Revolution is supposed to be a somewhat quick timed round. With admin intervention being lessened than on other rounds.

This is not a ban appeal, or an admin complaint. Cobby feels he is right, and is entitled to his opinion. I have no particular issue with him.

Tl;Dr Revolution is hectic. I think severe damage to the brig should allow security to activate purge the un-implanted/Head mode. I think policy for revolution should be changed to be more exclusive, or inclusive of the ancient execution rights. If I was in the right I don't like notes.

[captain sawrge]

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.

Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

Not even remotely the same thing.

[Pascal125]

If you hear that security is taking names and kicking asses because the brig blew up, it's revs, and there's barely any security left. Or you are the only one left. Especially if you're the HoS.
then maybe you'll be encouraged to stay in your department.
Or to ask for an implant.
Or be willing to submit to searches.
Or anything but being suspicious.

Because you're at the point where you know that you'll get your ass whooped otherwise.
How do you think Revs win? Anybody could be one. You wouldn't know unless they're implanted.
Yes, you're there to "Protect" and i personally frown upon the idea of "Playing to win" but it's literally what the gamemode tells you to do in that situation.

A classic tactic happens to be storming cargo because they're likely ordering guns as you speak.
"Asking" if you can search people who look suspicious. Read: Tazing people randomly because if you stop to chat you will get mobbed.
Stomping the shit out of anyone with a flash, or who is "confirmed" if you failed to secure cargo or they are slow on implants.
Scientists. Boy howdy do they fucking love bombing the brig. And when they do, they kill everyone. Revs, Security, Heads, Taze them on sight if they're anywhere near it. Chances are you'll find a bomb.
If somehow security failed to secure cargo, they'll likely be out of implants. Because those who wanted to live would have already shown up to the brig to ask for implants. Those 8 Implants are gone instantly whenever it's rev. All that's left is gulagging and beating people. And they'll whine about both options. If you then take the brig out of the equation with a bomb. And all of security with it.

What do you think is left?
Don't punish people for the gamemode.

[captain sawrge]

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.

Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

Not even remotely the same thing.

[EagleWiz]

I agree that murdering medical doctors who show up at a bombing site is going too far, but thats a fairly specific case, and any policy is probably going to be more general, and would probably bar not only killing medical doctors showing up at a bombing site to render aid, but would also bar security from killing a group of assistants loitering near the brig/bridge and following implanted people around.

I guess what I'm getting at is
Policy that if there's no reason to suspect a department is compromised you dont show up at that department and kill them all - Totally reasonable
Policy that you shouldn't murder medical doctors who show up to help (unless shit really hit the fan) - Narrow, and possibly abuseble but not horrible.
Policy that you can't kill that chemist who keeps showing up near cargo and hanging around with groups of unimplanted crew in a rev round - Not good
Policy that you can't show up at cargo and kill the guys who ordered swat crates and zero implants - Really Really Bad.

[Wyzack]

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.

Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

Not even remotely the same thing.

Care to elaborate how it's not the same because I thought the exact same thing

[imblyings]

just woke up gonna read this thread later there is a parallel thread in adminbus forums so i will copy what i wrote there first

Waiting on permission from someone who may be dead, incompetent, never-joined-the-game or just plain petty does not make for a fun experience. Players can choose to RP authorizations for lethals, we can consider that as a factor when making admin decisions, but it should never be an actual requirement by server rules. Let's please not go back to those SoS-era rules, it wasn't fun for anyone except the guy who knew he could ahelp about it and cause a fuss.

Otherwise I want to quote what I said in the ntr hut

I don't think security should be skipping straight to purge station but not all players are lucky enough to be part of a well-coordinated and robust team that can proactively fight revs. This is worsened by the level of inaccuracy any admin should have come to expect by now in terms of what information a player might reasonably know and base their actions off. Then we have to consider how players, who we don't consider to have any obligation in being good at policy, have to make good decisions anyway during high-stress rounds. They don't have the luxury of carefully examining what is ok or not after the fact while pulling from years of experience of adminning to avoid any fouls. We can and should expect them to make as reasonable a decision as possible based off what they reasonably know but even that has a margin of error we've come to tolerate.

With that in mind, understanding that the actions done by sec players in rev aren't necessarily to specifically ruin the rounds for others isn't making rev a symmetrical team deathmatch. Sec players do dumb shit in good faith during rev because they get pushed into that corner.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't curb the excess. Players acting unreasonably given what they know should still be taken to account for it. Killing when implants are available, when security/heads are still mostly intact, when there have been few if any attacks on them, is silly and something actionable.



Players should make reasonable attempts to deconvert.
However players, even smarter ones, make dumb mistakes in the heat of things and not out of malice or flagrant negligence. We definitely punish and remove for the former, and we try to curb or ultimately punish/remove for the latter but dumb mistakes brought on by stress are not always either of the two.
Proof is tricky and so case by case I don't want to approach trying to make rules about it. Many revs do not have suspicious things on them and there are some times where experienced players can accurately tell that someone is a rev solely by how they move.
Players should be reasonable when they valid. I might have said it somewhere else or not but things like killing the bartender behind the bar, or the chaplain in his chapel, or a random assistant drawing using crayons, isn't reasonable.

also if we do ever put restrictions on sec validing, I'd like to see the same placed on revs not validing bystanders.

I think we won't really move on from the 'I don't want sec to devolve into murderfest' group and the 'but good sec players have a sixth sense' group arguments. Both are valid points, maybe the point is we can't define 'make a reasonable effort to not be a dick'. Discuss anything if you're not sure when it happens because it's always a case by case thing, if you do ask on irc or even ''''''discord'''''''''''' at least you will have considered a second opinion or maybe even reached a consensus with any other online admins. And if the ruling is kinda flaky but there is definitely no malice, there's no harm in just a verbal warning or light note being placed instead of a ban which carries a lot more finality and weight in regards to precedents set.

You can't have consistency with an all-volunteer barely trained group of internet strangers who put in irregular hours and often admin alone without any colleagues to talk to. We can compensate by being more understanding and lenient of actions that aren't malicious or grossly negligent and use carefully worded notes as records of what a player did in case we're not sure so if it turns out many different admins with differing opinions still come to the same conclusion that a player is being malicious/grossly negligent, there is a pre-existing consensus that justifies hard action.

tldr I don't see how we could make rev free of hurt feelings, there will never be consistent rulings when hurt feelings happen, admins should be lenient/understanding of players who don't seem to have acted with malice or gross negligence at the time because a) players do dumb shit without meaning to b) with rulings being so inconsistent it's better to let the smaller things go

[CPTANT]

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?

K I will just let myself be killed next time Cargo and sec are gone/overrun because you will ban me if I actually try to fight.

Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

No part of that post says anyone will get banned for fighting. No part of that post says you have to die without capturing cargo. No part of that says you have to die at all, really. What it does say is that throwing up your hands as soon as things aren't in your favor and initiating the purge on the station is stupid and lacks even standard levels of human creativity. I'm really baffled that it is so hard for so many sec players to get their heads around the idea that it might not be something desirable for anyone involved to start purging literally everyone you find without implants from the station while hiding behind ingrained OOC protections and full roundstart combat gear.

Its pretty funny because just that happened today. It was a rev round and 80% of the crew died. Cargo was burned to shit and it was a complete standoff. I asked centcom what to do and the answer was "Smack em in the head until you find the right one".

So we smacked em in the head until we found the right one.

The fuck are you supposed to do when there are no implants...... You don't get an antag hud you know. Throwing everyone in perma is just as useless and letting everyone walk by is just giving them all the time they need to convert every single crew member left.

So yeah you are actually saying sec/heads should just die if they can't get implants.

[PathOfChaos1]

Is it possible to have central command step in and give the weapons free order? If there is sufficient damage or danger to the crew. I know some automated systems for wizard spawn antags if the wizard sucked. Could there be a way to have an automated message tell the crew that its do or die time?

I don't like the note, and were back, and forth with this thread. The brig being destroyed is more than "The cards not being in your favor" as one somewhat explained. None of what I wanted is being discussed its being discussed as if the brig, and security are fine. I believe its not just "security's fault for murdering people not implanted." If revs don't want that outcome don't do substantial damage to the brig, bridge, cargo, or the engine. The emergency shuttle won't come/leave with an ongoing rev round in play. Everyone knows that if you fuck with security hard enough thats the outcome that will be brought around. So why are security members being punished for extenuating circumstances. When they were not the ones who wanted to be in the situation at all? The revs are causing it. All security can do in a rev round is react, attack, defend, or just fall. All of these outcomes are bad. Reacting, defending. Are almost always complete, and total failures.

Reacting involves trying to play the round normally. Only implanting people who have done mis-deeds, or confirmed revving. The only good points it has is it protects security from scrutiny, and being banned if they over step somehow. Almost always assuredly leads to a failure on security team, and non-rev crew members being pissed off security did fuck all.
Defending involves setting up bases, and indiscriminately grabbing, or killing anyone who approaches. Welcome to bomb central unless you want to try and control science, the brig, and the cargo bay all at once. While sorta defending security from the bans.
Attacking involves taking pro-active steps in defeating the revs the most successful everyone knows if a rev round is confirmed there are only 2 people implanted, and non-implanted. Thats how the round type leads itself. If you actively avoid getting implanted for whatever reason be it some RP reason, or your thirst for the hard murderbone for security. You play a dangerous game with the round type. Its like janitors mopping during emergency situations. Don't act like an idiot. All these methods only work if one thing that is accomplished you have a place to drag the prisoners to. Unless you were granted all access (Which is stupid btw because if one officer fails whoop you lost completely)

[Anonmare]

tbh there should be a Centcom announcement at the 40 minute mark to tell everyone to sort this out or be blown up remotely, followed by a printout of the Headrev leaders and a centcom ferry shipment of implants and weapons

If there's a stalemate by the hour mark, just blow it all to hell because rev shouldn't be lasting that long

[Pascal125]

I sort of like the idea of a centcomm announcement. But if it's set to out the headrevs in 40 minutes i could see it possibly forcing hands or messing revs up.
While it's extremely unlikely for revs to go 40 minutes without being detected, it's still somewhat possible... And if they know that in 40 minutes they will be outted, they may wind up acting under pressure.

If it was made in such a way that at the hour mark the station would explode, admins would probably have to find a way to punish people for stalling the gamemode to the one hour mark. And it could all abruptly end at the one hour mark even in the event that nobody is stalling due to the size of the station and various other factors that could potentially make it possible for the round to last that long without it being the intention. And if you were to punish people for "stalling" then people would be pressured to go in the open and do dumb round throwing things.

The centcomm ferry of weapons and implants idea seems nice though... I could see Centcomm making an exception and trying to remain impartial under the belief that whoever wins the conflict will assume command and resume regular productivity.

If there's gonna be a print out of headrevs, They could also add their current status. (Dead, Alive, Exiled) they could also announce the heads of staff and their status. Making the report(s) another thing to possibly fight over for intel.

[Cobby]

I have PRd a "Major Victory" for Revs and Heads alike that encourages people to minimize casualties to get the utmost greentext and I'd like to see if that changes rev behavior.

This works two-fold hopefully

Revs will be discouraged from killing security/implanted/nonconverted to give sec and nonconverted a tad bit more breathing room
Security will be discouraged from trying to grasp at any reason they can to clean up the round (and everyone in it not implanted)

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33208

[cedarbridge]

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.

Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

Not even remotely the same thing.

Care to elaborate how it's not the same because I thought the exact same thing

I figured it was apparent but I guess not.

The first cases is me pointing out that sec behaving in a certain predictable way invites me as an antagonist an opportunity manipulate them into doing something counterproductive.
The second case is a player intentionally misinterpreting a rule to act indignant.

[Incomptinence]

I have PRd a "Major Victory" for Revs and Heads alike that encourages people to minimize casualties to get the utmost greentext and I'd like to see if that changes rev behavior.

This works two-fold hopefully

Revs will be discouraged from killing security/implanted/nonconverted to give sec and nonconverted a tad bit more breathing room
Security will be discouraged from trying to grasp at any reason they can to clean up the round (and everyone in it not implanted)

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33208

Won't do jack other than slyly bypassing policy to code in you absurd SOS era expectation of Blartsec.

Oh we gave them more objectives! That'll control em!
Just like how changelings politely do their laundry list of traitor objectives and don't murder everyone they can with their absurd endurance and built in sword.

Rev is a simple and functional mode and the pure violence of it is one of the high points, such a shame you two can't realise that.

[onleavedontatme]

Security threads are actually somehow worse than silicon threads

[Incomptinence]

Security threads are actually somehow worse than silicon threads

Local slime still soft.

[Cobby]

I have PRd a "Major Victory" for Revs and Heads alike that encourages people to minimize casualties to get the utmost greentext and I'd like to see if that changes rev behavior.

This works two-fold hopefully

Revs will be discouraged from killing security/implanted/nonconverted to give sec and nonconverted a tad bit more breathing room
Security will be discouraged from trying to grasp at any reason they can to clean up the round (and everyone in it not implanted)

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33208

Won't do jack other than slyly bypassing policy to code in you absurd SOS era expectation of Blartsec.

Oh we gave them more objectives! That'll control em!
Just like how changelings politely do their laundry list of traitor objectives and don't murder everyone they can with their absurd endurance and built in sword.

Rev is a simple and functional mode and the pure violence of it is one of the high points, such a shame you two can't realise that.

I mean in that pr My first sentence is “I realize rev is often tdm: the mode”.

I think changelings is more of an outlier given that they have a bunch of objectives and a lot of murderbone tools. Ofc I’m not sure yet so I’d like to see how this goes.

> trying to circumvent policy
What policy? I’ve simply encouraged people to not murderbone through opt in mechanics. You still win, just you win *more* if you minimize casualties.

> violence is one of the high points
And violence is still integral to the mode. However you are rewarded more if you keep as many people as you can in the round. Note that the check here is 50 percent of the population, meaning there’s a LOT of wiggle room to work with.

[cedarbridge]

slyly bypassing policy to code in you absurd SOS era expectation of Blartsec.

What the fuck does this even mean?

[onleavedontatme]

It means he thinks a non binding line of post round text encouraging people to not kill the entire crew at random is a coderbus attempt to make it bannable for security to fight antagonists

[Incomptinence]

The entire thing is a suggestion to admins to take up your sick mindset.

Basically oh the revs are totally gonna hold back now WINK WINK so security can get bwoinked to hell.

[cedarbridge]

The entire thing is a suggestion to admins to take up your sick mindset.

Basically oh the revs are totally gonna hold back now WINK WINK so security can get bwoinked to hell.

Seek help.

[Qbopper]

The entire thing is a suggestion to admins to take up your sick mindset.

Basically oh the revs are totally gonna hold back now WINK WINK so security can get bwoinked to hell.

it's a single line of text that means the revs "win harder" if they manage to do it without murdering people but there's no incentive or requirement to do so

also, "sick mindset"? dude you need to chill the fuck out

[BeeSting12]

This PR will not change my view on how I enforce the rules on a rev round.

[onleavedontatme]

It's pretty fucking nuts that I'm the one who removed all the rules security players said made the job impossible (like having to get permission to execute) and pushed heavily for years to give security a ton of leeway in team/conversion modes and I'm still being told I have "sick mindset" and want to ban all sec when I post that security shouldn't execute the entire crew when they're in control of cargo

[Owegno]

It's pretty fucking nuts that I'm the one who removed all the rules security players said made the job impossible (like having to get permission to execute) and pushed heavily for years to give security a ton of leeway in team/conversion modes and I'm still being told I have "sick mindset" and want to ban all sec when I post that security shouldn't execute the entire crew when they're in control of cargo

That's because those players are wrong and just wanted to get rid of the mild detour they had to take to perma people. Everyone whines about the SoS era being awful for security, but at least on Basil I was able to play only security for roughly a year without getting a single bwoink. I firmly believe that the vocal sec players that whined about how hitler admins used to be to them in the old days just wanted to be able to bypass minor inconveniences like putting people in perma, asking the captain for permission over the radio or confirming that someone is a cultist before executing them. Now those same people want to get rid of whatever new inconveniences there are, like clicking some buttons on a cargo console and then putting an implant in a guy.

[oranges]

lmao losing my mind at incomp rn

[BeeSting12]

I may have a rep for killing everyone during a rev round but I just completed one killing only rev heads. It's really not that hard guys, secure toxins once you hear about revs and then start mass implantations

[imblyings]

sticky/hg approved the rule changes and it was because in part sos was griefing security and kept on using the rules to his advantage, it was stupid then and sec players rightfully had enough

no one here is also advocating for security being able to kill everyone at any time why is that always the implied strawman being fought against right now

what a dumb thread

[Cobby]

sticky/hg approved the rule changes and it was because in part sos was griefing security and kept on using the rules to his advantage, it was stupid then and sec players rightfully had enough

no one here is also advocating for security being able to kill everyone at any time why is that always the implied strawman being fought against right now

what a dumb thread

It's a counterattack against the "We're back to SoS days boys" strawman when all we want is for people to not kill for flimsy reasoning (ofc accounting for the circumstances around rev).

[Pascal125]

I may have a rep for killing everyone during a rev round but I just completed one killing only rev heads. It's really not that hard guys, secure toxins once you hear about revs and then start mass implantations

Yes, but in comparison. We are veterans. We know what people are likely to do and what we have to do. The majority doesn't and it leads to this. And you shouldn't fault them for it when it does. It's just how the gamemode goes. They'll eventually learn but it's still going to wind up this way forever. Again, because that's how Revs roll.

[Dax Dupont]

The entire thing is a suggestion to admins to take up your sick mindset.

Basically oh the revs are totally gonna hold back now WINK WINK so security can get bwoinked to hell.

what the heck

[onleavedontatme]

no one here is also advocating for security being able to kill everyone at any time why is that always the implied strawman being fought against right now

what a dumb thread

Because twice in the last week I saw the kill order go out as soon as cargo ran out of money despite security being in full control of the station and got a bunch of arguing how it was critical to do so in OOC when I told them not to do that outside emergencies in the future (and not just from the guy who gave the order)

[PathOfChaos1]

I am somewhat in the same mind. If the security team isnt in an emergency don't wipe out the crew, but I dont consider other departments as the crux for that. I consider security, and its place in the station. If security/brig/armory falls I count that as an emergency. Using other departments for a base is hardly the same in defense. As well as having a crushing effect on our morale.

I think having the revs dictate the round should go that way. The more damage they cause/the more ruckus. The more security gets aggressive/hateful. If the revs can do it quietly/with some stealth, or just with minimal damage to the station. Security wont feel the need to execute the ever living shit out of them. If they do start smashing in places, attacking people, flash storming the halls. Exploding sections of the ship, or sabotaging departments. Then security should be allowed to go full Gestapo mode.

One of the reasons I believe that is because I have done a round as warden, with like 9 people in permanent cells, and each cell filled.

[Incomptinence]

Because twice in the last week I saw the kill order go out as soon as cargo ran out of money despite security being in full control of the station and got a bunch of arguing how it was critical to do so in OOC when I told them not to do that outside emergencies in the future (and not just from the guy who gave the order)

You are encouraging a two hours or more rev rounds.

Rev heads could just hide in plain sight after losing if things went your way.

Spending all the cargo points doesn't mean an implant for every man, woman and monkey.
Well when cargo isn't busted and getting insane points from tech disks like they are currently.

[onleavedontatme]

See? Was not a strawman to say some security players are openly arguing that it isn't fair they cant butcher the crew as a time saving measure

[onleavedontatme]

And I know it is not fair to people struggling through an often difficult mode in good faith but it is harder to take "it was an emergency I did what the mode made me do" at face value when many of the same people claiming that start playing deathsquad to save time/because its more fun to go on a killing spree

[Incomptinence]

I don't mind longer rounds usually.

People tend to not enjoy last head of staff hiding out, most people want rev over quickly.

Also mister magoo'n around for two hours arms wide open to tider spears.

That doesn't sound stressful at all.

[onleavedontatme]

I wouldn't have banned OP for his exact situation so maybe its unfair to be arguing about this in his thread but it was pretty borderline and given that others are openly admitting they're killing everyone because they feel like it I can understand why admins would feel the need to give extra scrutiny to security lately

[cedarbridge]

most people want rev over quickly.

I don't have a thinking emoji big enough for this post.

[imblyings]

Re:Kor

We would've told sec off for those two instances anyway

Re cobby

There were admins in the admin forum suggesting sos era policies

But none of this is relevant anyway, I'm sure both camps mean well. The don't want sec to kill fnr and the sec player camp. And we can ignore the third party if they suggest shitty sec practices. The practical issue is to shift to enforcement based on determining malice or gross negligence/repeated negligence despite warnings. Taking stances will just continue the whole pendulum thing with sec.

[Incomptinence]

most people want rev over quickly.

I don't have a thinking emoji big enough for this post.

Deaths aside it's still enormously chaotic and most civilian roles are disrupted by the you know rampant crime, threat that anyone could attack or convert you etc.

[cedarbridge]

most people want rev over quickly.

I don't have a thinking emoji big enough for this post.

Deaths aside it's still enormously chaotic and most civilian roles are disrupted by the you know rampant crime, threat that anyone could attack or convert you etc.

Alternative and simpler answer: They want it over because the mode is shit.

[Incomptinence]

If you consider a round type shit and the first thought you have is "I better ban any security managing to cope with this mode I hate" you're administrating poorly.

[kevinz000]

who else just reads policy to see kor/headmin reactions to security and silicon policy threads?

[Qbopper]

who else just reads policy to see kor/headmin reactions to security and silicon policy threads?

it's the only subforum where he usually doesn't call me rude things so yes

If you consider a round type shit and the first thought you have is "I better ban any security managing to cope with this mode I hate" you're administrating poorly.

if you read the admin replies to this thread and you believe this is how the admins feel you're not posting in good faith

[Incomptinence]

I'm paraphrasing cedar's post in the ban appeal. Basically puts being a in disguise near an exploded brig on par with being a silicon killed for following laws.

I don't believe that being present at the site of a bombing is the same as clearly setting a trap. If a bomb goes off and the first thought you have is "I'd better get to the scene and gun down any survivors" you aren't playing security. You're a deathsquaddie.

I have read cedar's replies a few times in particular.

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?

Practically advocating accelerationism for game modes they don't like.
I could even interpret cedar and Cobby's position on this as turning fairly standard rev strategies like bombing the brig into ban baiting.

Pretty good way to undermine the mode and get it removed really.

[cedarbridge]

I'm paraphrasing cedar's post in the ban appeal. Basically puts being a in disguise near an exploded brig on par with being a silicon killed for following laws.

I don't believe that being present at the site of a bombing is the same as clearly setting a trap. If a bomb goes off and the first thought you have is "I'd better get to the scene and gun down any survivors" you aren't playing security. You're a deathsquaddie.

I have read cedar's replies a few times in particular.

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?

Practically advocating accelerationism for game modes they don't like.
I could even interpret cedar and Cobby's position on this as turning fairly standard rev strategies like bombing the brig into ban baiting.

Pretty good way to undermine the mode and get it removed really.

Not a single one of the posts you've quoted matches anything you described them as containing. Its pretty hard to follow what you're trying to get at anyway with nonsense words like "accelerationism" thrown in seemingly at random.

The first post you quoted:
-Does not mention silicons in any way or make a comparison to them.
-Does not mention anyone being present in disguise or mention anything about anyone being there for actual nefarious reasons. If your presumption is that anyone at the site of a bombing is the bomber then you've got some logical misteps to work through before you should be posting about bombings.
-Accurately states that if your first idea when you hear about a bombing is to rush to the site of said bombing and kill everyone, you're not acting as security. You're acting like a deathsquad trooper.

The second post you quoted:
-Says nothing about my preferences for or against the mode. I don't really care for revs in most cases because of the sort of things this thread has already discussed but that's got nothing to do with the quoted post.
-Does not say that rushbombing is an idea state for the game or encourage it as something that should happen.
-Does express that if security overracts in the way that security players have been asking to be allowed to overract to certain conditions "The bomb got brigged so order 66 gas everyone lads" then it would be a sound tactical move to sic sec after totally innocent crew by bombing sec and wasting sec attention and resources on random crew instead of on the actual revs.

This thread is stupid and its bad faith "paraphrasing" like that making it stupid.

[Incomptinence]

Accelerationism is an idiotic social theory that proposes to overthrow capitalism by letting it go hog wild and therefore stir up some sort of inevitable marxist revolution against it.
See your dream of seeing sec lynched every time your bomb the brig or if you got your way in policy laying listlessly like a limpet waiting for nature to take its course.

The silicons following laws comparison is a bit of a stretch yes but I feel it is to the level which you infantilize the crew in appeal (in which one of them was behind mask and stolen ID). Like there was some imperative forcing them to be there.
As if being near the explosion wasn't an unfortunate situation beyond their control but rather a proof of innocence within itself putting them under the "survivor" label, like revs never FF, and putting sec in stead of first responder and having no further obligations other than making them a cup of hot coco.

However poorly I mince things and how dumb I might have made it the "deathsquaddie" jab remains extremely absurd and it's a bit worrying you are already confusing IC escalation with an admin button pushing.
The only way it would make sense would be if he spawned and immediately killed everyone on sight like a griefer, rather than working on by design imperfect information after his equipment, department and co-workers exploded in front of him.

I didn't think I needed to quote your opinion on rev this because it was seemingly posted on this page not long ago:

Alternative and simpler answer: They want it over because the mode is shit.

As for not saying rushbombing is ideal your "oh so next time I'll just X" post is the sort of thing has been used as sufficient statement intent of toward future actions.
Also basically running X thing into the ground to provoke change ala stickymayhem and mag boots.

The primary reason driving either side to "order 66" and kill everyone not on their team is round end conditions demanding complete death or exile of rev or station heads.

[calzilla1]

Ok, as a person who wins revs almost ever time hes a head rev let me tell you this: if the round doesnt end 10-20 minutes into the round 90% of the time it will be a land slide sec victory. The best (and arguably only effective tatic) is to flash every body you can in the first 5 minutes and blitzkrieg the heads before thwy have time to react. If you don't do this, sec WILL have a chance to fuck you over and your chances of survival go down like your mom on prom night. My solution is to replace rev with /vg/'s team rev, but I really dont care. Rev is in a good spot roght now and isnt the antag we should be really evaluating right now cough cough ling cough

[PKPenguin321]

Ok, as a person who wins revs almost ever time hes a head rev let me tell you this: if the round doesnt end 10-20 minutes into the round 90% of the time it will be a land slide sec victory. The best (and arguably only effective tatic) is to flash every body you can in the first 5 minutes and blitzkrieg the heads before thwy have time to react. If you don't do this, sec WILL have a chance to fuck you over and your chances of survival go down like your mom on prom night. My solution is to replace rev with /vg/'s team rev, but I really dont care. Rev is in a good spot roght now and isnt the antag we should be really evaluating right now cough cough ling cough

not true, saw a rev yesterday where the headrev lost his flash and didnt know you could use any flash to convert and the round went on for like 40 minutes until a new staff head joined which created a new headrev who knew his shit and the rev won about an hour in

[Steelpoint]

Security should try to hold themselves to some standard during Rev rounds, executing people on the spot should be reserved for either when its obvious they are Revs and you don't have time to deconvert them (smashing their head is unreliable) or you are losing control of the situation and need to do something to get back on top.

If you want some legitimacy in executing people near a bomb site, have the station raised to Red Alert, declare martial law and order all crew to remain in their assigned departments (or bar if otherwise) unless they are mindshield implanted. At that point you have some grounds to justify executing someone if they are outside their department, even then I'd say you arrest them and reserve executions for extreme circumstances (as in the reason this thread was made).

[Arianya]

If the station is fine and sec/chain of command pretty much intact then sec shouldn't be bashing people's heads/killing people on suspicion alone.

If the revs are maxcapping sec and a head fears for his life because he's not even certain whos left to protect him then its pretty reasonable to give them some leeway in escalation, barring complete shitterdom murderboner.