Drones and Silicons

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Drones and Silicons

Postby Kangaraptor » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:49 am #29662

I realised that this hasn't properly been discussed or clarified - so this'll be the thread, I guess. The whole point of this is to come to some sort of consensus to avoid confusion about the drones and their relationship with the silicons on the station.

It's simple: should drones regard the AI as part of the station, or as another 'being' (contrary to what a lot of the current rules and policies seem to imply), thus being unable to do anything about the AI itself if it's been damaged or whatnot (ie: return it to the core, move it if the core is depowering, stuff like that).
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby peoplearestrange » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:13 pm #29675

I like to see drones as something like a nanobot swarm, though obviously not nano.

They are there to make repairs, fill in holes etc. They do this without question or really knowing why. In fact I see them as an incredibly simple robot, not a cyborg or AI at all.

So dragging the AI or returning something to where it should be should be considered beyond their comprehension.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:57 pm #29679

I do foresee some discussion on the limits of Drone interaction with the crew, there is already some debate in game on the limit of how Drones can interact with the crew. I do agree the AI and Silicon's should be considerd to be individual species and cannot be interacted with, as I did witness the Drone take the carded AI away (I think it was to safety)
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby QuartzCrystal » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:13 pm #29681

I would say they should treat the AI and borgs just like any other crew. While there's certainly going to be instances where drones do interact with the crew (since they can be worn as hats crew are going to inevitably try to make them their pets) which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think the drones should be concerned with keeping an AI safe. In fact, I think part of the appeal of drones is how funny it is when they repair the station while people/silicons are dying around them.

I will say this though, whenever I play AI or borg, fully expect me to be very condescending and rude about the drones.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:18 pm #29683

To ask the inevitable question so we can get it out of the way.

Can people freely kill Drones?

I'm neutral on this issue, I think its shitty but Drones are expendable.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Alex Crimson » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:35 pm #29685

Id say killing drones is a rule 1 issue. Drones are not hurting anyone. So long as they do not violate their laws, then i think they should be left alone. However, if you see one dragging a gun away from a human, or pulling the AI around, shoot it.

The whole "do not interfere with humans" thing. I think indirect interaction is fine. If a human is repairing a hole, its fine for you to help. If a human is dying, you ignore it.

If a Traitor blows a whole in a wall with C4, do you repair it before Sec comes to chase him?

Is taking metal from Robo ok? Even if there is a Roboticist working there, but not in the room at the time? Seems like IC its fine, but OOC its a little rude.

Can you mess with Atmos? Its directly affecting the whole populations air supply.

Can you set up the PA/Solars? They power the station after all. What if a Traitor has set the Sing to break free? Do you repair the sabotage? What if you repair it without realising its sabotage?

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby QuartzCrystal » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:18 pm #29689

Headmin decision is that rule 1 applies to them, antags can kill em if they want just like with everyone else, but you're still removing someone from the round, potentially permanently depending on if there's a competent roboticist.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby elyina » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:48 pm #29704

this was already ruled on back when drones were implemented to artyom.

you can't kill them FNR, non-antags don't really have any reason to ever be killing them. if a drone is trying to steal shit from you/your department or being a general nuisance, adminhelp it. a "being" is considered anything sentient that isn't a drone and also applies to dead bodies. we're going to be pretty no tolerance with job banning drones that break their laws.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Antimattercarp » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:05 pm #29779

So if a drone is thieving stuff from the brig or otherwise not being where it is supposed to be, can I discourage it by hipfiring lasers and adminhelping it later? I find that it would be a lot of work for an admin to attempt to return things that are stolen so it will never happen and if a badrone takes a egun from the and gets banned in the middle of nowhere there is a good chance of that egun ending up in someones pocket.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby tkdrg » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:19 pm #29795

On a recent rev round, I broke into the HoP's office through a window and a drone immediately started fixing it behind me, trapping me inside, which led to me getting lasered and murdered by the HoP. My interpretation of the law 1 (based on /vg/'s policy) says that drones can't close holes behind people breaking in unless they can reasonably expect that the person won't be coming back any time soon, so you can't, for example, seal a hole trapping a person inside the AI core if he thermites inside. Does the same apply to /tg/?

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:32 pm #29797

tkdrg wrote:My interpretation of the law 1 (based on /vg/'s policy)

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Stickymayhem » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:10 am #29802

I think it's hilarious if drones just totally ignore the existence of other beings and try to work.

When a random event blob occurred a swarm of drones were repairing walls over and over as the free expansion of the blob destroyed them in an endless pointless but hilarious cycle.

Similarly repairing a c4ed hole in the captain's office while someone is already inside is funny.

I'd rather see drones pretend to be unaware of anything other than repairing and upgrading the station, to the benefit and detriment of everyone. Mindless little machines hellbent on doing their work even if they are repairing the same wall over an over again for an hour.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Pandarsenic » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:30 am #29811

If you've played Mass Effect, think of the Drones as being like Keepers. They don't care about the sentients (players) around them. They just address the nearest problems they encounter. They shouldn't be fucked over FNR and they shouldn't consciously try to affect the flow of the round with their abilities, but otherwise they're free to fix what they like when they like.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:13 am #29824

If we do end up wanting them to avoid fucking over traitors, I think two additional rulings would accomplish it pretty well.

1: Drones cannot interfere with destruction in progress. This would cover dragging sydibombs, turning down the particle accelerator, that sort of thing.

2: Drones cannot repair damage that is currently within sight of any being. Drones just stupidly working despite the chaos around them is funny, but drones stealthily sneaking in, making repairs, then scattering when someone approaches so that you can look away for a few moments, look back, and suddenly everything's repaired is way cooler.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:21 am #29825

After watching a valiant display of about 5 drones setting up a secondary containment field after singuloose'd, i'd have to disagree about not interfering with bombs and the like.

Theres a bomb.
They have to "maintain, repair, improve, and power".
That going off would break at least 3 out of 4 of those.
Space that fucker.

Same with the singulo, if that escapes then they aren't doing a very good job of powering the station nor maintaining it.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Apsis » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:09 am #29826

I just ignore anything that isn't the stations functions or my fellow enlightened drone friends. Skittering into a room to fix a something by a dead dude is the best.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Aranclanos » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:43 am #29829

So lets say that there is plasma in a hallway and there's a guy trying to start a fire, but there's a drone following him with an extinguisher instantly stopping the flames before the entire hallway bursts out. Is the drone breaking his laws?
The drone is not touching in any way the person, he's just 'deleting' the firespot objects.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Jordie0608 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:50 am #29835

It's a bit of a whimsical comparison but that reminds me of the cleaning robot from Wall-E.

The drone can't actively prevent the guy from causing a mess while he's around but he can deal with the mess once it's been created. The fire isn't a being nor is it in any way an extension of the being creating them so the drone should just ignore whether there's even a being or not.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby MMMiracles » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:54 am #29836

Aranclanos wrote:So lets say that there is plasma in a hallway and there's a guy trying to start a fire, but there's a drone following him with an extinguisher instantly stopping the flames before the entire hallway bursts out. Is the drone breaking his laws?
The drone is not touching in any way the person, he's just 'deleting' the firespot objects.


I think that'd fall under the same category as players causing destruction in general. Its sole purpose is to fix and maintain, so putting out fires some jackal is trying to start should be fine, as long as he doesn't directly fuck with him at least.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:55 am #29838

Jordie0608 wrote:It's a bit of a whimsical comparison but that reminds me of the cleaning robot from Wall-E.

The drone can't actively prevent the guy from causing a mess while he's around but he can deal with the mess once it's been created. The fire isn't a being nor is it in any way an extension of the being creating them so the drone should just ignore whether there's even a being or not.


Rules as currently written, sure, he's toeing the line. But it seems like that's defeating the intent behind giving drones the "do not interfere" law. As I understood it, they were added to give dead people something interesting to do and keep rounds from being cut short when there was still potential for interesting stuff to happen. If their laws have loopholes that let them cockblock antags, then it seems reasonable to remove those loopholes.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Aurx » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:23 am #29840

>is interfering with this dude's firestarting interfering?
>is interfering with this dude's B&E interfering?
>is interfering with this dudes attempted singuloose interfering?
Seriously, people. This isn't rocket science.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:06 am #29847

The example fire starter guy can just attack the drone. Total non issue if you are right to wreck you are right to kill. Yes the drone should not interfere directly but fires are very indirect, interference law if interpreted to extremes would just mean total inaction and drones would fail their intended purpose as station repair bots.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Alex Crimson » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:04 am #29852

Arete wrote:If we do2: Drones cannot repair damage that is currently within sight of any being. Drones just stupidly working despite the chaos around them is funny, but drones stealthily sneaking in, making repairs, then scattering when someone approaches so that you can look away for a few moments, look back, and suddenly everything's repaired is way cooler.


The problem with that is if there is say... a massive hole from a bomb explosion, Engineers will probably be around it. So drones would be unable to repair it because they are in view of a human.

I like the idea that they completely ignore any kind of living or silicon being unless they are attacked, in which case they can try to run away. Also lets say someone is C4ing into the captains office, you cannot just sit around and repair it as soon as he enters to crew him over and trap him.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:43 am #29863

Alex Crimson wrote:The problem with that is if there is say... a massive hole from a bomb explosion, Engineers will probably be around it. So drones would be unable to repair it because they are in view of a human.


If the engineers are around, they're probably handling it themselves. This doesn't seem like too bad a feature to me.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Alex Crimson » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:04 am #29867

1-2 Engineers vs many Drones. Drones are, from what ive seen, much more efficient at repairing than Engineers tend to be. Also it could be any human in the area. What if some assistant is flying around for no reason, just surveying the damage? Drones would not be able to start repairing until he left. Bomb blasts tend to be in very public areas.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Jordie0608 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:40 am #29871

We've been talking in #coderbus about removing a drone's restrictions on what they can pick up since in most cases where they do fire a gun, they're likely to have a taking with from admins anyway.

Personally I'm in favor of this as it removes the awkward questions like "drones can't use guns but why can they use eswords?".
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Aranclanos » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:15 pm #29872

When the drone is allowed to fight the damage on the station if it caused by someone?
Lets say it's a fire, is the drone allowed to fight it before the fire spreads?
Is the drone allowed when the fire is huge?
Maybe the drone is allowed when the fire ended and there are only burned turfs left and breaches?
Is there any difference if the fire was made by a human intentionally or not?

What if the intention of the human was to leave the room with breaches and burned? How are the drones supposed to know that? Can drones fix anything outside of damage done by meteors?


Doesn't fixing any damage at all made by humans break their laws?


This is what I think it's the best way to have them:
Jordie0608 wrote:It's a bit of a whimsical comparison but that reminds me of the cleaning robot from Wall-E.

The drone can't actively prevent the guy from causing a mess while he's around but he can deal with the mess once it's been created. The fire isn't a being nor is it in any way an extension of the being creating them so the drone should just ignore whether there's even a being or not.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:21 pm #29874

If some guy is running around on fire in a plasma filled area, I suggest that Drones are free to kill any fires that guy creates, but to let him burn to death as putting out the fire on him would interfere with him.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:35 pm #29885

Gun restriction stops drones using floral somatorays which is a real niche reason but still I don't like it.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:32 pm #29900

Aranclanos wrote:Doesn't fixing any damage at all made by humans break their laws?


The way I see it, drones have no comprehension of human intention. They don't even understand the language.
They're just wandering noodle dudes who end up breaking things periodically and putting you on their head, and the drones have to fix it.
Are drones programmed with knowledge of the syndicate? Wizards? Are they supposed to know that a bomb in maint was planted there with the intent to kill a scientist in the next room?

No. There is a bomb that is going to ruin the station you are by law supposed to maintain.
The dude could be on fire trying to ESCAPE the plasma. Drones have no way of knowing intent.

If theres a hallway on fire, you put it out. If Greyshit McPyro runs into your extinguisher blasts that was his action while you were fighting a fire destroying your station.

If we're going that deep into it, simply EXISTING is interfering since someone had to make you, and they should summarily self-terminate as soon as they spawn in.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:26 pm #29913

Where does that line of in-character reasoning end, though? How does a drone know which changes to the station are improvements which should be sought after and which changes are damage that should be repaired? How does a drone recognize whether something is a bomb in the first place? How does a drone know that the guy who just turned the particle accelerator up to max won't be back to turn it down again once the singularity is as big as he wants it to be?

It's good to design drones with promoting a particular kind of atmosphere in mind, but the drones themselves aren't themselves roleplaying in the same way that other silicons are. To keep things consistent and unambiguous, they should be given laws that they're expected to follow to their player's best ability.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby bandit » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:38 pm #29921

I am not an admin, but:

Arete wrote:Where does that line of in-character reasoning end, though? How does a drone know which changes to the station are improvements which should be sought after and which changes are damage that should be repaired?


Up to the drone's discretion, as well as Law 1. Broken shit is probably damage that needs to be repaired. Rage Cage, probably not.

How does a drone recognize whether something is a bomb in the first place?


How does an assistant recognize whether something is a bomb? This isn't Bay.

How does a drone know that the guy who just turned the particle accelerator up to max won't be back to turn it down again once the singularity is as big as he wants it to be?


He doesn't. However if the drone sees the singularity at max size it can turn off the PA.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:12 pm #29940

bandit wrote:How does an assistant recognize whether something is a bomb? This isn't Bay.


Things have already gone full Bay when a drone can repeatedly turn off the particle accelerator to stop an antag from releasing the singularity, but can't figure out any other way to prevent someone from releasing it.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby bandit » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:05 pm #29948

It's a drone. It's not a drone's job to "prevent" an antag from doing shit. It is a drone's job to maintain the station. That's like saying an Asimov AI "can't figure out" any way to neutralize a traitor but locking it into a room.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:51 pm #29952

It's completely different. Asimov AI doesn't want to neutralize traitors in the first place, it just wants to prevent harm, and it can use whatever tactics it wants as long as those tactics minimize harm (and aren't dickish). With the current rulings on drones, a drone is allowed to use some tactics and not allowed to use other tactics, even when those tactics are functionally the same in 99% of cases. A drone that stops an antag from freeing the singularity is interfering with that antag's actions, whichever means are used. Claiming innocence due to some convoluted story reason is just rules lawyering.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby bandit » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:11 pm #29955

You're looking at this entirely the wrong way.

The drone isn't trying to "stop" an "antag" from "releasing" the singularity. In a drone's mind, the antag doesn't exist. All that exists is a singularity in danger of causing station damage. This is like saying the PA console is "helping" the antag by willingly turning on -- it's a machine. It doesn't give a fuck about humans.

This works both ways. If a drone runs by a changeling absorbing some guy in maint the drone doesn't give a fuck. It doesn't mean the drone is trying to "help" an "antag" accomplish his "objectives" - they are just living beings and not its concern.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Aurx » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:20 pm #29980

bandit wrote:You're looking at this entirely the wrong way.

The drone isn't trying to "stop" an "antag" from "releasing" the singularity. In a drone's mind, the antag doesn't exist. All that exists is a singularity in danger of causing station damage. This is like saying the PA console is "helping" the antag by willingly turning on -- it's a machine. It doesn't give a fuck about humans.

This works both ways. If a drone runs by a changeling absorbing some guy in maint the drone doesn't give a fuck. It doesn't mean the drone is trying to "help" an "antag" accomplish his "objectives" - they are just living beings and not its concern.

The laws clearly indicate knowledge of the existence of other beings. If drones were to be unaware of other beings, they'd have a law stating such.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:36 pm #29981

Drone repairing something you just broke? HIT IT!

There are lots of potential scenarios where a drone could pop by and see damage and not know it is fresh, quit gibbering about drones spoiling your grey/yellow tide old hat boring filth.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:38 am #30010

Incomptinence wrote:Drone repairing something you just broke? HIT IT!

I mean really guys. If you can break through a wall, you can hit a drone with a toolbox twice.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Hibbles » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:13 pm #30392

I have to say, I like the idea of them being essentially an extreme version of the "Yes Captain, that is in fact a door." school of AI play. Namely, that they know living beings like humans and cyborgs and carp exist, but literally are incapable of understanding why they do anything. Like, they have no forward modeling or premeditation at all. So they go and fix a hole, but they don't stop the guy making more holes, as was suggested.

Taken literally, this also would mean it wouldn't be capable of knowing that bombs and singulos and diamond picks are capable of damaging the station, and thus it doesn't do anything about them, thus fufilling the original freaking intent of drones, which is to fix the station and not fuck with anybody, even (or especially) antags.

EDIT: Although I just realized this would mean the drone could, and should, infinitely try and remove improvements, construction projects, and any modifications to the station at all and that could turn annoying, fast, so I guess I'm just stupid.

EDIT 2: Unless we want them to literally be like the Keepers from Mass Effect, who just remodel entire apartment blocks and remove stuff without asking or explaining and people should just deal with it because they also keep things running and we don't understand them entirely.

And any decision made about how drones must act must be very, very simply and clearly spelled out in the drone's laws.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:25 pm #30394

In a bomb scenario.

If a Drone see's the bomb being armed by a human, it is obliged to ignore the bomb.

If a Drone see's a bomb, and there is a human in close proximity to the bomb AND is somehow interacting with the bomb, it is obliged to ignore the bomb

Otherwise, if a Drone see's the bomb and there are no nearby humans, or a nearby human is not close enough to the bomb and is not taking any actions, it is obliged to remove the bomb.

---------

This falls under the idea of 'no interference with sentient beings'. In scenario 1 & 2 there was a human working on the bomb, thus disarming it would interfear with the human. In scenario 3 there is no human working the bomb or is close enough to be working on it, thus the Drone can work on the bomb.

In addition, the Drone's do understand the damage the bomb can deal, but is obliged under its laws to ignore the bomb if disarming the bomb interferers with a human. HOWEVER, this means if a Drone sees a human arming the bomb, it cannot disarm it as doing so would interfere with a human, this can encourage someone who plants a bomb to stay near it to keep Drones/People away from it.

This also encourages giving Drone's their own communications channel, so they can tell other Drone's what the situation is.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby FRONK » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:57 am #30512

Seriously though you just have to stop overthinking the whole thing and just think to yourself:

Are you interfering with someone directly by taking an action? No? Then continue.

You're a mindless simplemob that's supposed to fix things. That's it.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Saegrimr » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:58 am #30513

FRONK wrote:Seriously though you just have to stop overthinking the whole thing and just think to yourself:

Are you interfering with someone directly by taking an action? No? Then continue.

You're a mindless simplemob that's supposed to fix things. That's it.


You'd be surprised at how many people simply cannot comprehend this.
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby FRONK » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:05 am #30517

Saegrimr wrote:You'd be surprised at how many people simply cannot comprehend this.


It's mind-boggling, really.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Arete » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:03 am #30548

Saegrimr wrote:You'd be surprised at how many people simply cannot comprehend this.


Judging by the disagreement on things like whether interfering with a guy's attempts to start fires is interfering with him, it's not a thing everyone can come to the same conclusions on and there needs to be a policy set one way or the other.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Psyentific » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:21 am #30549

How about a rewording, then? Do not interact with other beings? Do not involve yourself?
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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Alex Crimson » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:34 pm #30722

Today i had a Drone using R&D machines whilst i was around and using them myself. Tried to tell it to bugger off, but it wouldnt listen. This is more of a game mechanic thing, but i dont think Drones should have access to the R&D console. At the very least, if i play Scientist, the next time i see a Drone using R&D to waste our materials for its Bag of Holding, im going to kill it.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:39 pm #30723

Alex Crimson wrote:i see a Drone using R&D to waste our materials for its Bag of Holding, im going to kill it.

Instead of a codelock which would be needlessly restrictive, this is what you should have done in the first place. If the drone is interfering, remove drone.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Alex Crimson » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:41 pm #30725

I didnt feel it was worth killing another player over at the time. I know you can get banned for doing it, and im not the kind of player that kills without good reason.

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Re: Drones and Silicons

Postby Psyentific » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:25 am #30732

Alex Crimson wrote:I didnt feel it was worth killing another player over at the time. I know you can get banned for doing it, and im not the kind of player that kills without good reason.

Drones aren't players. Or, rather, drones are dead players that are trivial to get back into the round; Just print some more drones.
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