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Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

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CitrusGender
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Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby CitrusGender » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:30 pm #369833

I can't believe I'm asking this question, but there appears to be some debate as to whether or not this is allowed. I'm glad I asked first because I expected this to be one of those unwritten rules and I was right: people disagree about this completely.

Personally, I don't think this is enough to get someone to valid you, but I understand the direction that we seem to be going towards is that: if people are attempting to be shitters: they will be treated as such. I still don't think that's enough to allow for people to kill someone over their dog though.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:33 pm #369834

I believe the prevailing stance from the past was people kept killing Ian so that the HoP/Cap would try to kill them in retaliation, which would give them a """valid""" reason to fight back against said HoP or Cap and try to steal their ID/other stuff, so admins just threw up their hands and said that it didn't make you valid to try curbing it
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make your valid?

Postby Ispiria » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:39 pm #369835

I've always viewed it as being akin to the clown not wearing shoes or the mime breaking their vow - opening up the perpetrator to a fair amount of IC bullying, IE slipping, tabling, disposaling, namecalling, etc. Outright murder, or even delimbing/gagging/straitjacketing/otherwise seriously impacting a round over a simple mob dog seems excessive, though. At the same time I'd expect the person who killed Ian to fully anticipate people might not take kindly to it, and would expect them not to fight back to a moderate amount of bullying being sent their way. If they believed their life to be genuinely in danger I'd hope they'd use all available means to disengage without fighting back, since they're the initiator of the conflict, and only ahelp if they found themselves killed or their round permanently crippled over what is essentially a non-impactful meme.

Anyone using an Ian kill to bait others into harassing them so they could further escalate and attempt to gain valids on crewmembers who wouldn't have noticed them in the first place had they not harassed the dog would be, in my eyes, guilty of killbaiting, and if they ahelped upon being bullied for killing Ian, that'd be banbaiting. It doesn't seem like a difficult situation to apply just a little bit of common sense and, in an ideal world, anyone being deliberately malicious about killing Ian would be easy to spot.

None of this would apply to antags, though, who are obviously free to murder Ian, and anyone else, with the normal repercussions that would otherwise entail.

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Screemonster » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:56 pm #369841

If you go out of your way to get a reaction out of people, don't bitch about the reaction you get.
If you go out of your way to get a reaction out of people, then kill them for the reaction you get, then you're just baiting.

But just like WGW-reading there's this subset of assholes that think the height of hilarity is to make themselves valid by pissing people off so they can have """"fun""""""" fighting everyone regardless of whether the other people actually want this brand of fun. Saegrimr did nothing wrong

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Stickymayhem » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:58 pm #369843

It makes you valid to the pet owner and no one else.

Ian was special but then lots of other pets got added. I think Ian just makes you valid to the HoP now.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:59 pm #369844

If you kill someones dog i will fucking mulebot you over and over and drag your corpse around the station flooding it with your blood
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Hatterhat » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:59 pm #369845

only two kinds of people shoot dogs
assholes and the ATF
don't be an asshole or the ATF
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Ispiria » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:00 pm #369846

Stickymayhem wrote:It makes you valid to the pet owner and no one else.

Ian was special but then lots of other pets got added. I think Ian just makes you valid to the HoP now.

That seems like a bit of a slippery slope, though. The HoP, upon seeing Ian killed, will set out a bounty with an offer of access to anyone who can bring in the killer to be valided. Alternatively people may begin actively hunting the killer just to bring them to the HoP and get to watch a valid, having participated in it. I don't strictly disagree with you that the HoP should be allowed increased escalation, but then we're just farming out valids instead of stopping Ian from being a machine for valids in the first place.

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Qbopper » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:11 pm #369849

was ruled to be "no" a long time ago but I don't remember when
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby BeeSting12 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:21 pm #369851

I refuse to bwoink a guy for killing someone who killed Ian. I might even ban the ahelper for banbaiting.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Rustledjimm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:24 pm #369853

BeeSting12 wrote:I refuse to bwoink a guy for killing someone who killed Ian. I might even ban the ahelper for banbaiting.



I think the issue we are concerned with is less that more

>Person A kills Ian
>Person B starts a minor fight with Person A for killing Ian
>Person A escalates this straight to murder and kills person B

As has already been mentioned on this thread killing Ian was long a way to force fights to try and have an excuse to just kill people.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby RandomMarine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:30 pm #369854

Out of curiosity, has the 'killing Ian doesn't make person valid' ruling had any impact on the rate of Ian killings?

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby DemonFiren » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:05 pm #369859

If I recall correctly, initially it spiked.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby imblyings » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:04 pm #369865

the answer i have consistently given when asked is no it doesn't make you valid except somewhat for the hop himself only, who is given more leeway because it's his pet

this being said killing someone for killing ian is, depending on circumstances, not punished as harshly as a true fnr kill
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby bandit » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:30 pm #369870

Rustledjimm wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I refuse to bwoink a guy for killing someone who killed Ian. I might even ban the ahelper for banbaiting.



I think the issue we are concerned with is less that more

>Person A kills Ian
>Person B starts a minor fight with Person A for killing Ian
>Person A escalates this straight to murder and kills person B

As has already been mentioned on this thread killing Ian was long a way to force fights to try and have an excuse to just kill people.


headmins can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm concerned this is fine. killing Ian on purpose is usually a way to provoke someone, and it's OK to fight back (within reason) if you've been provoked. so person B is in the clear. person A, less so; definitely banbaiting if they ahelp it

as far as the HoP offering bounties I'm ok with that, there's a difference between someone RPing their role to get someone killed for a legit reason and the mass mindless valid mobs you used to see
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby imblyings » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:57 pm #369878

we certainly have cases where provocation was a legitimate factor but we tried to remove it from being a legitimate factor for all but the hop practically

in rustledjimm's case, kinda depends on how they killed ian, how much they were trying to provoke with his death, how minor/major the fight actually was, how long ago, etc

under post-escalation rules A might be at fault but the other big factor is determining how much B contributed to the conflict by taking A's bait.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby CitrusGender » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:14 pm #369879

imblyings wrote:we certainly have cases where provocation was a legitimate factor but we tried to remove it from being a legitimate factor for all but the hop practically

in rustledjimm's case, kinda depends on how they killed ian, how much they were trying to provoke with his death, how minor/major the fight actually was, how long ago, etc

under post-escalation rules A might be at fault but the other big factor is determining how much B contributed to the conflict by taking A's bait.


So, let's say that someone takes Ian and then kills them and tells the HoP on radio that they killed them. Does that mean the HoP is allowed to kill that person by going to find them and then murdering them? Would spacing/incinerating/hiding the body be too far?
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Dax Dupont » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 pm #369892

CitrusGender wrote:
imblyings wrote:we certainly have cases where provocation was a legitimate factor but we tried to remove it from being a legitimate factor for all but the hop practically

in rustledjimm's case, kinda depends on how they killed ian, how much they were trying to provoke with his death, how minor/major the fight actually was, how long ago, etc

under post-escalation rules A might be at fault but the other big factor is determining how much B contributed to the conflict by taking A's bait.


So, let's say that someone takes Ian and then kills them and tells the HoP on radio that they killed them. Does that mean the HoP is allowed to kill that person by going to find them and then murdering them? Would spacing/incinerating/hiding the body be too far?


Do unto others as they do unto Ian.

Generally I'd say spacing them/gibbing them is a bit too far unless they made it a point to constantly harass the hop with multiple messages about it or something.

I don't think this should ever apply to other pets, Ian is a bit of a special case since it's kinda historic for 2d spessmen and he's the de facto station mascot.

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:00 pm #369897

If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you.

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Alipheese » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:21 am #369982

This ruling was added to the proper page in wiki
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Xango » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:40 pm #370034

Oh hey this thread happened because of me, better comment on it and kinda explain what happened. Was HOP, AFK for literally 2 mins at round start on my phone. Can still se screen. A ligger and a guy named Lief Baxter (important person in the story) are breaking into my office. When the ligger hacks the door, I walk out of the little room thing with a windoor and the guys says, "oh shit not braindead". The ligger takes Ian and Lief runs out. After I threaten the ligger over comms, I see Lief on my line asking for service right after he caused my pet to be kidnapped. I tell him "Fuck off I aint helping you" so he decides to run into my office through the hacked door and into the bridge where I retreated. I baton him, table him on some glass tables and then let the captain take him to brig. This is the last time I saw him before a random person announces over the radio that Ian was dead. I guessed that Lief was behind this and I was right. He taunts me over the radio saying that he murdered Ian brutally or some shit. I go full John Wick on his and the ligger's ass and upload a law to the AI saying that he is nonhuman and must be caught. The ligger was caught by the HOS because of something that had mothing to do with Ian so I beat and kill him brutally. Then someone says over comms that they caught Lief too. We bring them to robotics and start to borg them. After a couple secs of borging Liefborg pulls a prisoner I had out of my hands and runs. I blow him and remove his brain from the MMI. Turns out my prisoner was a new player and I let him go. I feel bad about Lief and decide to give him another chance. I put him back in an MMI and say I felt bad. He says over comms that I killed the captain so I remove him from the MMI and briefly space his brain for being a cunt. The ligger ended up getting cloned so I let him walk free thinking he already served his time in dedchat. Turns out Liefnfucking ahelped and here we are.
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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Screemonster » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:59 pm #370066

Kor wrote:If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you.

Xango wrote:Turns out Liefnfucking ahelped and here we are.

ding dong

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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby Xango » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:09 pm #370067

Screemonster wrote:
Kor wrote:If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you.

Xango wrote:Turns out Liefnfucking ahelped and here we are.

ding dong


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Re: Does killing Ian/other pets make you valid?

Postby CitrusGender » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:24 pm #370073

Xango wrote:Oh hey this thread happened because of me, better comment on it and kinda explain what happened. Was HOP, AFK for literally 2 mins at round start on my phone. Can still se screen. A ligger and a guy named Lief Baxter (important person in the story) are breaking into my office. When the ligger hacks the door, I walk out of the little room thing with a windoor and the guys says, "oh shit not braindead". The ligger takes Ian and Lief runs out. After I threaten the ligger over comms, I see Lief on my line asking for service right after he caused my pet to be kidnapped. I tell him "Fuck off I aint helping you" so he decides to run into my office through the hacked door and into the bridge where I retreated. I baton him, table him on some glass tables and then let the captain take him to brig. This is the last time I saw him before a random person announces over the radio that Ian was dead. I guessed that Lief was behind this and I was right. He taunts me over the radio saying that he murdered Ian brutally or some shit. I go full John Wick on his and the ligger's ass and upload a law to the AI saying that he is nonhuman and must be caught. The ligger was caught by the HOS because of something that had mothing to do with Ian so I beat and kill him brutally. Then someone says over comms that they caught Lief too. We bring them to robotics and start to borg them. After a couple secs of borging Liefborg pulls a prisoner I had out of my hands and runs. I blow him and remove his brain from the MMI. Turns out my prisoner was a new player and I let him go. I feel bad about Lief and decide to give him another chance. I put him back in an MMI and say I felt bad. He says over comms that I killed the captain so I remove him from the MMI and briefly space his brain for being a cunt. The ligger ended up getting cloned so I let him walk free thinking he already served his time in dedchat. Turns out Liefnfucking ahelped and here we are.



As I told you, I think that the whole making a law thing is a bit going over the line but he turned out to be a shitter. Thanks for being understanding in it all, I just had a dilemma against what I believed in and what you said was alright.

This thread is done and has solved what it needed.
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