Finding the syndicate shuttle.

[Bluespace]

Policy time.
As it stands, visiting or entering the syndicate shuttle, is likely to get you bwoinked.
Personally, I think trying to find the syndicate shuttle at the first sign of ops is a pretty arsehole thing to do, but I present another scenario.
You're able to make an educated guess on where the shuttle is, the crew is mostly dead, you have space gear and an agent ID.
If you do nothing, the crew will likely die.
If you fly around to the area you think the shuttle is, and you don't find it, you return and try to evacuate.
If you find the shuttle, you board it and return to the syndicate base, preventing the nuke from going off.

Which of these do you consider the correct option?
Is it time to revise the policy about finding the syndicate shuttle?

[Reimoo]

I assumed the policy was you could follow the ops back to the shuttle in order to reclaim the disk but that's it.

[cedarbridge]

I've been boinked on one occasion for being in space when the syndicate shuttle landed and spotting a borg leaving it. This same borg which I followed to the AI sat and stopped from killing the AI.

As far as boarding goes, we have some extra issues. There's no counterplay there for the ops. How are the ops supposed to do anything now that the shuttle is on a zlevel that cannot be accessed. Even with the disk, they can do literally nothing because somebody got an agent AI and boarded the shuttle while they're gone.

[bandit]

I've always thought that the policy about the syndicate shuttle is the single most idiotic policy we have. It makes no sense, except from a metagaming perspective: why the fuck, IC, would someone just whistle and ignore the syndie shuttle if they find it, besides "welp gonna get banned if I do anything"? If someone wants to board the nuke op shuttle on purpose, that is a legitimate strategy that makes rounds interesting and the ops should prepare for that. If someone finds it by accident - which has happened - it's like a SURPRISE YOU'RE FUCKED button.

As for operating the shuttle itself, just make it so that humans cannot access it without an agent ID (and remove agent IDs from the shuttle if they're not there. After this, if an op manages to lose its ID, have someone steal it and have that person get to the shuttle / past the turrets, then the ops honestly deserve their loss.

[elyina]

can we just add turrets to the syndicate shuttle already, there's already gun turrets in the game files that are automatically friendly to nuke ops and kills everyone else

[Stickymayhem]

Bandit there is a good reason for this.

First of all people will do round trips of the areas the shuttle frequents. This policy is required due to game limitations since the shuttle only has certain areas in which it can appear and thus is easily guessable, particularly as the metagame for ops is to go SW or North and not much else.

I think if we modify this policy then it will become a lot greyer and less explicit. At the moment it's a fairly simple question of "Did you follow an op back to the shuttle? No? Then you saw nothing move along" and the issues can be resolved easily.

The current policy is absolutely fine and prevents a lot of nuke ops rounds from being completely fucked over.

Turrets would work though.

[bandit]

Bandit there is a good reason for this.

First of all people will do round trips of the areas the shuttle frequents. This policy is required due to game limitations since the shuttle only has certain areas in which it can appear and thus is easily guessable, particularly as the metagame for ops is to go SW or North and not much else.

Then ban people who do this because it is metagaming. Doesn't mean you have to close off an entire avenue of legitimate play in addition to fucking over people who accidentally stumble across it. As soon as the ops are known, it should be fair game to go after their shuttle.

[Incomptinence]

With Elyina here. Turrets in space are pretty robust (not much cover to set up girder cheese) give the shuttle some self defense. Maybe some cheaper "defender" versions of syndiborgs and viscerators that cannot leave/be spawned outside the shuttle. Increasing the number of places it can be would also be helpful

The whole shuttle out of bounds thing is silly and I would much prefer the shuttle be heavily defended in game not by OOC banning.

[oranges]

What the fuck, I'm sure the syndie shuttle had turrets added.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/2030

Did this get changed at some point recently?

They got map added here
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/2479

I'm trying to find if there was a revert

[Jordie0608]

I'm trying to find if there was a revert

Kaze's changes to nuke ops got reverted due to something something names and bugs; the gun turrets also went away in that revert.

[Spacemanspark]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

[Stickymayhem]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

[Bluespace]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

This is a really bad way to handle things.
Add gun turrets.
Remove the spaghetti policy (!!Which isn't actually on the rule pages!!)

[bandit]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

This is pretty much exactly what I meant by "metagaming." What the HELL kind of IC motivation would cause this?

[Cipher3]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

This is a really bad way to handle things.
Add gun turrets.
Remove the spaghetti policy (!!Which isn't actually on the rule pages!!)

[Spacemanspark]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

Well, on higher RP servers, it's happened. And they were allowed to give us away immediately, which fucked over the entire mission.
It makes sense, ICly, as well.
Unless you want to have us be unable to know what the Syndicate Nuclear Operatives are until they start gunning down the hallways. Shall we offer them a drink of tea as they walk in as well, too?

[Psyentific]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

You didn't see anything.

This is a really bad way to handle things.
Add gun turrets.
Remove the spaghetti policy (!!Which isn't actually on the rule pages!!)

Gun turrets please.

IC solutions to IC problems, Admin solutions to Player problems, Policy solutions to admin problems, code solutions to code problems.

[Reimoo]

IC solutions to IC problems, Admin solutions to Player problems, Policy solutions to admin problems, code solutions to code problems.

Too bad nowadays it's more like

Policy solutions to IC problems, Policy solutions to player problems, Policy solutions to admin problems, and code solutions to code problems.

[Kangaraptor]

Iunno, I feel like we could benefit by expanding the size of z-levels a bit too. That might help with the whole 'find shuttle get hype' thing considering how close it spawns to the station in every single position.

edit: maybe give the syndie shuttle a couple turrets and a small comms jamming radius around the shuttle too? stops people from calling out 'LOL OPS' while they die but means if they manage to get away from the shuttle, they can pull the alarm.

[cedarbridge]

I'm just going to say it. The only thing that is really hidding that shuttle is the fact that Byond assumes that all characters are Mr Magoo tier nearsighted.

[Psyentific]

I'm just going to say it. The only thing that is really hidding that shuttle is the fact that Byond assumes that all characters are Mr Magoo tier nearsighted.

Yeah, if 'realistic' visual ranges were in, we'd have a lot different station design and a lot of things could be spotted just by looking out the window.

[Incomptinence]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

I can remember maybe two instances where the nuke team opens fire on the poor space suited ditz so fast they don't even let out a peep.

[cedarbridge]

So... If you decide to go space exploring that round, and come across it just as they dock... What do then? It's happened to me before.

I can remember maybe two instances where the nuke team opens fire on the poor space suited ditz so fast they don't even let out a peep.

I've had flikes dump whole egun charges/magdump pistols trying to hit my nasa suit. Telescience stronk. Nasa stronk.

[Alex Crimson]

I fail to see the problem with the current policy. Using meta knowledge of syndie shuttle spawns points is bannable. Following a Syndie to his shuttle is allowed.

This topic only popped up because Boris Pepper aka Bluespace felt the need to spacewalk to the syndie shuttle, move its location, then raid the place for syndie items. Then he got told off by admins. Having been an admin himself, he should know full well how powergamey his actions were.

So no. I think the current policy is perfectly fine.

[Psyentific]

I fail to see the problem with the current policy. Using meta knowledge of syndie shuttle spawns points is bannable. Following a Syndie to his shuttle is allowed.

This topic only popped up because Boris Pepper aka Bluespace felt the need to spacewalk to the syndie shuttle, move its location, then raid the place for syndie items. Then he got told off by admins. Having been an admin himself, he should know full well how powergamey his actions were.

So no. I think the current policy is perfectly fine.

The problem is that the current policy is both special case and undocumented.

Also, that it's a policy solution to an IC problem. This exact problem would have a more elegant solution if it was solved with gun turrets, guard robots, or similar in-character methods.

[cedarbridge]

I fail to see the problem with the current policy. Using meta knowledge of syndie shuttle spawns points is bannable. Following a Syndie to his shuttle is allowed.

This topic only popped up because Boris Pepper aka Bluespace felt the need to spacewalk to the syndie shuttle, move its location, then raid the place for syndie items. Then he got told off by admins. Having been an admin himself, he should know full well how powergamey his actions were.

So no. I think the current policy is perfectly fine.

The problem is that the current policy is both special case and undocumented.

Also, that it's a policy solution to an IC problem. This exact problem would have a more elegant solution if it was solved with gun turrets, guard robots, or similar in-character methods.

Exactly this. In its current state, its an undoccumented rule that is punished OOC instead of handled IC by making players not WANT to put their character next to the shuttle.

[bandit]

This topic only popped up because Boris Pepper aka Bluespace felt the need to spacewalk to the syndie shuttle, move its location, then raid the place for syndie items. Then he got told off by admins. Having been an admin himself, he should know full well how powergamey his actions were.

Not true. This has come up several times before. It's a fairly uncommon occurrence (possibly because nuke ops is a fairly uncommon game mode), but Bluespace was not the first to bring it up. He was just the first to bring it up recently.

[Raven776]

I remember it happening years ago, and admins spawned in nuke ops NPCs to deal with the person going to hijack the shuttle and caused a shitstorm in OOC.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Well, shuttle has blast doors and I'm fairly certain that there is no way in unless blast doors are not locked.

Still, the thing about ignoring it is retarded. It should be solved via IC means. Make shuttle deadlier. Add a bunch of taser/laser turrets around it. Lock everything inside with syndicate access, lockers, computers, doors. Add radio jamming radius around it. Make it alert ops over radio when somebody is entering area around the shuttle.

Just make it so it's not desirable to seek out the shuttle all by yourself.

[Alex Crimson]

But doing that will make it desirable. Just so players can challenge themselves to get on the super dangerous syndie shuttle and brag about it after the round ends.

[Steelpoint]

Why not just make the shuttle only open to members of the Syndicate faction? Meaning the only possible way a crew member could get in the shuttle is...

• If a Operative leaves the front windows shutters open, allowing someone to break in.
• Someone follows in a Operative as they enter the shuttle
• Someone drags a dying Operative's body to the shuttle entrance. But doing so would leave the crew member suspectiable to being blow up and your carrying a still living operative.

Essentially getting into the Syndi shuttle will be almost impossible unless the Ops screw up big time, at which point it would hardly matter if someone gets in the shuttle or not.

Also, I like the idea of the Syndi Ship having a radio jammer, as well as alerting the Operatives if someone gets within a certain range of the ship.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Why not just make the shuttle only open to members of the Syndicate faction? Meaning the only possible way a crew member could get in the shuttle is...

• If a Operative leaves the front windows shutters open, allowing someone to break in.
• Someone follows in a Operative as they enter the shuttle
• Someone drags a dying Operative's body to the shuttle entrance. But doing so would leave the crew member suspectiable to being blow up and your carrying a still living operative.

Essentially getting into the Syndi shuttle will be almost impossible unless the Ops screw up big time, at which point it would hardly matter if someone gets in the shuttle or not.

Also, I like the idea of the Syndi Ship having a radio jammer, as well as alerting the Operatives if someone gets within a certain range of the ship.

I'm pretty sure this is already the case. The walls are indestructible and all windows can be covered with blast doors.

[cedarbridge]

Why not just make the shuttle only open to members of the Syndicate faction?

It requires an agent ID which you can only get if an op is terrible and doesn't *deathgasp

[Steelpoint]

What I meant is that the doors be changed to only open for anyone who is a part of the Syndicate faction. AFAIK all Nuke Ops are assigned to the Syndicate faction when they spawn.

Meaning a Agent ID Card will not be enough to open the outer doors.

[mrpain]

I think meta gaming and going out of your way to look for nuke ops shuttles before confirmation of their arrival is shit and needs to be enforced against.
I think trying to find their shuttle and using "process of elimination" to find it after they've been confirmed is ok in most situations (I saw them leave out arrivals solars! They must be near there somewhere guys!).
I think their shuttle could use turrets, as it appears to have been intended to.