[POLL] Murderbone as antag

scaredofshadows · Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:42 am

Bottom post of the previous page:

We're finally going to add this to the rules. I'd suggest that silent mass murder (without roleplaying of any kind) can be considered a bannable offense under rule 1. These bans might be anywhere from 24h to permanent and would be subject to review.

The community should decide what constitutes unacceptable murderbone with no roleplaying elements. I'm going to define 'unusual objectives' for the purpose of this thread as any objective where mass murder is an aid to rather than a hindrance from completing objectives. Obviously 'escape alone' requires a lot of murder. Assassinate one person and steal one item not only does not require mass murder, the odds of succeeding go down when you have the rest of the station hunting for you. Antagonists who have a reasonable motive for mass murder (borgs during Malf for example) are not under scrutiny here.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:55 am #31714

paprika wrote:admins please do this more it's not like you'll get admin complainted for doing it

You'd be suprised.

I prefer to just fill the room where they have the communications console with spiders, a little more subtle.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:12 am #31718

Pandarsenic wrote:Speaking of recalling:

1) if you recall it while being boring, don't be surprised if you explode
2) Don't get upset if people force through a restart vote because we don't or won't cancel it to enhance your ability to rub your murderection
3) If you manage to exterminate the station, or nearly so, before the shuttle can be refueled, uh... yeah I dunno.

This is what I like to see.

Not some awful blanket policy....we already have way too much policy as it is....not some awful Baystation rule...but proper admin intervention.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:17 am #31745

Incomptinence wrote:People really just need to push the restart votes you know stop jumping on our old I DED PLS RESTART wagon and let them actually RESTART A ROUND on occasion.

Nope. Player restart is fucking awful.

Incomptinence · Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:19 pm

Look there are times when the players aren't happy. We know they can get unhappy, the proof is right here. They have a way to be happy again and they just do not take it.

Am I meant to be sympathetic to someone who finds a tired joke more important than their own enjoyment?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:38 pm #31768

They're not happy because i ded pls restart. Ever since I got denied hard-earned greentext because of i ded pls restart, I fucking hate it.

callanrockslol · Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:28 pm

To be fair, if you managed to force a restart its worth like 20 greentexts, it's so satisfying to watch people freak out in OOC and force the current round to end at every else's expense because you managed to trick the better part of 20 people into a tcomms sat laser corridor, for an example.

I ded restart is fucking terrible if you aren't the cause though, especially if its most if its on dead guy and a bunch of trolls.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:30 pm #31920

Scott wrote:They're not happy because i ded pls restart. Ever since I got denied hard-earned greentext because of i ded pls restart, I fucking hate it.

You're doing the same thing in the opposite direction.

I DENIED GREENTEXT, PLS NORESTART, PLS AHELP, PLS HE DUNK ME, PLS SINGULARITY KILLED ME, PLS I DROPPED PDA INTO SPACE

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:51 pm #31929

That doesn't even make sense.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:57 am #31963

Why not a 'no murderbone until 20 readies' rule

simple, easy to follow, will keep murderbone off of lowpop where its most annoying.

Oh wait someone removed the ability to see how many lobby readies there are for some reason ???????????????????????????????????

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:04 am #31969

paprika wrote:Oh wait someone removed the ability to see how many lobby readies there are for some reason ???????????????????????????????????

Because people were using it to metagame nuke ops. Yes, that actually happened.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:06 am #31971

It's still really dodgy and hard to do, especially with HUGE amounts of players like we have normally. Well now we can't make rules based on readycount which is annoying. What about 30 players on the server before murderbone?

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:24 am #32305

No. People don't want any limitations over murderboning.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:29 am #32367

Why are you making such a blanket statement? Have you ever played on basil/sybil 2 during the 20 player murderbone fests where he just recalls over and over or subverts the AI and slaughters everyone? This policy will not affect sybil at all. Only sybil really lowpop and server 2 if it ever gets started again (which will be easier with no murderboning)

callanrockslol · Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:14 am

Why don't we just ban murderboner action on basil so they go away

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:58 am #32407

I'm of the belief that you can't put an arbitrary cap on it. Murdering people wantonly is fine, but going Dante Smith about it is immensely shit and shouldn't exactly be encouraged.

Incomptinence · Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:08 am

The traitor scaling is basically set to start at two then have diminishing returns. It isn't really a wonder low pop degenerates into murder fests when it has more tators and lings per capita than any other population level.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:45 am #33553

Kangaraptor wrote:I'm of the belief that you can't put an arbitrary cap on it. Murdering people wantonly is fine, but going Dante Smith about it is immensely shit and shouldn't exactly be encouraged.

It encourages itself. Everyone a part of those ghosts trains that follow good murderboners around are just another person who wants to do it too.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:53 am #33587

paprika wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:I'm of the belief that you can't put an arbitrary cap on it. Murdering people wantonly is fine, but going Dante Smith about it is immensely shit and shouldn't exactly be encouraged.
It encourages itself. Everyone a part of those ghosts trains that follow good murderboners around are just another person who wants to do it too.

I guess that's symptomatic of deathmatch gamers with no creativity, then; the whole 'I saw x murder a bunch of people with lube and a circular saw, I wanna do it too!' thing instead of figuring out a much more interesting, amusing way of doing it.

idk really, like I said, performing a small genocide in the name of the Syndicate shouldn't be bannable, but being especially shit in the process should be.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:36 pm #33595

paprika wrote:Why are you making such a blanket statement?

Because as we speak, 55% of the voter said no to any kind of limitations to murderboning.
We don't want to set a rule over some shitty precedent.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:38 pm #33596

paprika wrote:It encourages itself. Everyone a part of those ghosts trains that follow good murderboners around are just another person who wants to do it too.

I follow murderboners around as a ghost simply because I want to follow the action. That's a pretty wide statement saying that anyone who spectates a antag on a mass murder spree wants to do the exact same thing.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:43 pm #33602

Kuraudo wrote:
paprika wrote:Why are you making such a blanket statement?
Because as we speak, 55% of the voter said no to any kind of limitations to murderboning.
We don't want to set a rule over some shitty precedent.

That is absolutely not true. 55% of the voters said no to the proposed way of limiting murderboning.

Stop misinterpreting polls, jackasses.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:39 pm #33607

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:
paprika wrote:Why are you making such a blanket statement?
Because as we speak, 55% of the voter said no to any kind of limitations to murderboning.
We don't want to set a rule over some shitty precedent.
That is absolutely not true. 55% of the voters said no to the proposed way of limiting murderboning.

Stop misinterpreting polls, jackasses.

Question: "When does murderbone cross the line into bannable territory?"
Answer: "Never"

That's not clear enough to you ?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:26 pm #33636

The poll didn't provide an option for "none of the above, but on lowpop / during protracted server-crippling lag / with endless chain-recalls," which would have been my vote.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:59 pm #33649

Kuraudo wrote:Question: "When does murderbone cross the line into bannable territory?"
Answer: "Never"

That's not clear enough to you ?

I actually read posts, including OP and ALL of the fucking answers to the poll, may be you should as well. Scaredy wants to introduce a limit on how many people can one kill. Most people, including admins, think this is a stupid way to do it, and rightfully so in my opinion, however, that doesn't mean they think murderboner shouldn't be restricted at all, it just means that they don't like this method of restricting it.

Clear enough?

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:34 pm #33660

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:Question: "When does murderbone cross the line into bannable territory?"
Answer: "Never"

That's not clear enough to you ?
I actually read posts, including OP and ALL of the fucking answers to the poll, may be you should as well. Scaredy wants to introduce a limit on how many people can one kill. Most people, including admins, think this is a stupid way to do it, and rightfully so in my opinion, however, that doesn't mean they think murderboner shouldn't be restricted at all, it just means that they don't like this method of restricting it.

Clear enough?

Fine, i'll dissect the question for you.

When does murderbone cross the line into bannable territory?

First, limit means making it bannable. If you're not willing to ban people not respecting the limit set by a rule, the rule is only a declarative one and has no reach.
Setting a rule mean you are ready to ban people for enfreigning it.
The mean to make it a rule is unique; Get it in bannable territory.

Furthermore, murderboning is defined as the mass killing of the crew by an antag. The main criteria will always be in terms of numbers of people killed, people playing, etc. Setting the criteria elswhere is irrelevant because of the very nature of the act of murderboning.

The answer "Never" encompass everything you can think about. From the relevant and submitted criteria of the number of people killed, to the imaginary ones, setting up an opposition in the principle of the idea of limiting murderboning.
It's safe to assume that someone voting "never" to a question like that, never want murderboning to enter bannable territory. Not from 12 people killed, not if it's nuke ops, and not even the fourth of july.

Malkevin was right when he said that the admins became carebears. Since when the playerbase should be treated like 5 years old getting into a kitchen, with every sharp and dangerous ustensil removed from their grasp ?
What kind of admin would decide, out of the blue, that banning someone for murderboning is ok ? With the poor banned dude appealing and begging to be allowed back in the server ? Since when this kind of thing can happen with nobody saying anything about it ?
Worst of it is the fact that it created a debate while there was no problem in the first place.
How many times do you seriously see someone grabbing syndicate weapons and successfully hacking or shooting his way to victory without being stopped at some point ?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:47 pm #33663

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:
paprika wrote:Why are you making such a blanket statement?
Because as we speak, 55% of the voter said no to any kind of limitations to murderboning.
We don't want to set a rule over some shitty precedent.
That is absolutely not true. 55% of the voters said no to the proposed way of limiting murderboning.

Stop misinterpreting polls, jackasses.

no, youre misinterpreting the poll
"When does murderbone cross the line into bannable territory?"
"never" means that people think murderbonering should never get you banned as an antag

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:44 pm #33670

Are you seriously arguing with Lo6?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:45 pm #33671

do you seriously need to italicize something in every post you make

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:46 pm #33672

It's fucking obvious that "Never" includes anyone who didn't like the other options (which are all the same idea, just different numbers), as well as those who just don't want murderboner banned in any way. I don't even know why you try to argue otherwise.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:13 am #33735

because the only other option is to increase the number of acceptable kills further which is stupid
if you dont agree with any of the options, maybe you shouldnt vote in the poll???
considering its a change by sos himself i doubt there ARE any other options

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:19 am #33737

I do believe the unlisted option is that really it's not based purely on kill count, but rather the extent to which mass murder is acceptable is dynamic and should be intuitive at the time.

Incomptinence · Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:49 am

We need a zero to negative five option obviously. Oh and fractions, for traitors who lop a percentage of your limbs off.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:01 am #33759

miggles wrote:if you dont agree with any of the options, maybe you shouldnt vote in the poll???

I couldn't imagine somebody would claim that "never" for some reason would apply to absolutely everything, not just one matter that the poll is based upon.

In any case, he said that everyone who voted never don't want murderboner restricted in any way, that is wrong, because at least I voted never and would like murderboner restricted SOMEHOW. If I recall correctly, there were others like me in the thread, so there you go, you can calm down now.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:37 am #33761

Cipher3 wrote:I do believe the unlisted option is that really it's not based purely on kill count, but rather the extent to which mass murder is acceptable is dynamic and should be intuitive at the time.

damiac · Post by **damiac** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:48 pm #33813

Apparently this is why polls need an 'other' option.

However, I believe everyone who picked anything except never actually just meant 'Not specifically never', not the thing they actually voted for. Anyone who thinks someone picked a poll option because of what that poll option specifically said is obviously misinterpreting the results.

So by my estimation 55% want no restrictions, and the other 45% want some random restriction, like you must wear gloves while murderboning. There! Logic!

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:03 pm #33820

I suspect this pool is gonna stay open for an extended amount of time, until some day, for like one hour, the "Never" is gonna get under 50 %
It's then gonna get closed super fast with a premade message stating something in the lines of:
"There. The majority of the community expressed their will of seeing some limitation to murderboning. We are gonna work on a new rule reflecting that. Thank you for playing on TG."

On a more serious note; Close this topic please.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:26 pm #33824

This is why polls are a terrible idea - people start misinterpreting them based on their opinion and don't stop even when you present them with facts.

elyina · Post by **elyina** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:16 pm #34320

The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:35 am #34358

elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.

Plus you know, half the people that play on the server pay very little attention to the forum. But still, I am sure the vast majority would vote for never. If sec can't handle a traitor murderboning, then perhaps its time to give sec a new toy?

Incomptinence · Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:47 am

Well yeah we used to have in game polls for a reason.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:50 am #34360

Murazor wrote:
elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.
Plus you know, half the people that play on the server pay very little attention to the forum. But still, I am sure the vast majority would vote for never. If sec can't handle a traitor murderboning, then perhaps its time to give sec a new toy?

Sec tried that once. They banned him.

Bibliodewangus · Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:19 am

Antags should be able to do whatever they want. You will kill this game if you limit their options.

callanrockslol · Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:02 am

elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.

Please give several examples

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:06 am #34404

Visible voter names in polls when?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:06 am #34405

Bibliodewangus wrote:Antags should be able to do whatever they want. You will kill this game if you limit their options.

How? Explain your points beyond stating them.

elyina · Post by **elyina** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:13 am #34424

callanrockslol wrote:
elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.
Please give several examples

It was investigated by stickymayhem and myself, and confirmed by MSO last night that several trash accounts were made just to vote in polls. It's been changed so that 10 forum posts are now required to vote in polls, but from what I know we can't take off the existing fake votes.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:06 am #34449

elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.

Implying "We are gonna make murderbone bannable anyways."
It's easy to shout "CONSPIRACY !" when the results of a vote doesn't fit your desires.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

elyina wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:
elyina wrote:The poll can't be trusted as accurate anyway, people have been making multiple forum accounts to spam them.
Please give several examples

It was investigated by stickymayhem and myself, and confirmed by MSO last night that several trash accounts were made just to vote in polls. It's been changed so that 10 forum posts are now required to vote in polls, but from what I know we can't take off the existing fake votes.

They weren't that bad. No more than four or five extra votes have been made this way according to MSO. The rest were most likely silent OOC votes after some people stirred up shit there and posted the links.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:14 am #34456

But silent OOC votes are biased and not useful, since they are very likely to be people who just listened to this guy telling them to vote and didn't read threads or anything.

People need to stop acting like polls are some kind of 100% accurate judgement that is ultimately correct. It's not, it's just a fucking source of information. Which, as we've seen, can be misrepresented.

callanrockslol · Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:19 pm

We also need to accept that there is legitimately only 5 people vocally supportive of this change

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:01 pm #34468

Alternatively you could all stop going LOOK THESE PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME THAT'S BECAUSE I'M RIGHT LOL every time the votes swing one way or another.

Unless it's like 20 against 2 it really doesn't matter. Votes should display close to unanimous support to be the reason for change. But they usually don't. In my opinion they aren't a good idea and discourage discussion in favour of slapping your votes on the table and fencing with them.

Just use your words to explain why something is good or not. Then use your words against someone else's words if you disagree with them. Then shut the fuck up and sit back and let whoever is in charge make their decision.