Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

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Lumbermancer
 
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Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:56 am #398380

I'm the Head of Security. War is declared. I announce I don't really care about War Ops either way, implying rule of law is still in effect, but I'm not sure if that got through.

Usual happens, rabble forms in front of brig, demanding weapons to get their valids on. I say the Warden is in charge of the armory. Warden is not there unfortunately. I ask Captain on command channel if I should arm the crew. Unfortunately before I get answer, all access folk roll in and waltz straight into armory and begin looting.

I approach one of the looters, and order them to get the fuck out of my armory. They insult me. So I stun them, and make an attempt to gulag them. They are helped by one of my officers and are freed. Scuffle ensues, and ultimately I get kidnapped, stripped down, and put into captains locker cuffed. My goal was then to break out, find them, and kill them, but I figure it'd counterproductive and just remain in the Captains office for the remainder of the round.

OOC happens, and I'm being told I was in the wrong. That if I want to HRP with operatives (I don't) I should find the other server. That they will just kill me next time.

So, what could I do? What can one do?

Can I arrest HoP for dispensing all access without explicit approval?

Can I fire at the rabble forcing their way into the brig, and people looting armory?

Can I exercise rule 6 of Security Policy in any way?

Can I exercise a modicum of control over brig and SOP?

Can I attempt to rp in basic capacity?

Or, should War Ops be treated like a meta-game the round, and everything else goes to trash, and "give me the guns or else" people are right?
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby starmute » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:13 am #398382

So In my opinion:

First things first: Don't be a dick trumps every rule there is. I would tell you that you should arm the crew. From a role play perspective: Nanotrasens cops aren't there to just protect themselves they are there to protect the station from nearly everything. While you usually control the armory the HOP (who is only second to the captain) is giving out all access to everyone.

Imagine the station more like a Ship, everyone is under Nanotrasen. The HOP is above you in the chain of command and has given the orders to open the armory.

So in order of your questioning

1. Open the armory to the Crew

2. No you aren't the captain and it is a war-time situation

3. No you should not. It is a war time situation

4. Don't do that.

5. To a degree. However understand that this is a extremely different circumstance.

6. Yes

This is coming from a person who plays a warden all the time, you can still RP.

Edit:

Also lumbermancer whoever told you to find another server is a jackass. From all accounts that I remember you are a good player. Tell me when this happened.
Last edited by starmute on Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:20 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:18 am #398386

I feel deciding whether or not to arm the crew is well within the freedom a player has while playing HoS, however so is dealing with the IC consequences of that choice, such as mutiny by officers.


OOC happens, and I'm being told I was in the wrong. That if I want to HRP with operatives (I don't) I should find the other server. That they will just kill me next time.


These two things don't follow from each other. They are free to escalate against you if they feel you are endangering the station in a war situation, however they open up themselves to escalation in return.
Last edited by CPTANT on Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Screemonster wrote:how the fuck are you supposed to RP with a grille

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:22 am #398387

starmute wrote:So In my opinion:

First things first: Don't be a dick trumps every rule there is. I would tell you that you should arm the crew. From a role play perspective: Nanotrasens cops aren't there to just protect themselves they are there to protect the station from nearly everything. While you usually control the armory the HOP (who is only second to the captain) is giving out all access to everyone.

Imagine the station more like a Ship, everyone is under Nanotrasen. The HOP is above you in the chain of command and has given the orders to open the armory.

So in order of your questioning

1. Open the armory to the Crew

2. No you aren't the captain and it is a war-time situation

3. No you should not. It is a war time situation

4. Don't do that.

5. To a degree. However understand that this is a extremely different circumstance.

6. Yes

This is coming from a person who plays a warden all the time, you can still RP.

Edit:

Also lumbermancer whoever told you to find another server is a jackass. Tell me when this happened.


Ugh, HoP is not above HoS when he is not acting captain.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby The Clowns Pocket » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:41 am #398389

Nuke ops (esp. war ops) turns the game from a survival game to team deathmatch. Its how it always has been, and how it always will be without some grand gamemode rewrite
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby starmute » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:44 am #398391

CPTANT wrote:Ugh, HoP is not above HoS when he is not acting captain.


This particular debate has long been settled. The acting captain is for all intensive purposes the Captain if the original Captain is dead or MIA, otherwise its just a nations round.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:51 am #398392

The Clowns Pocket wrote:Nuke ops (esp. war ops) turns the game from a survival game to team deathmatch. Its how it always has been, and how it always will be without some grand gamemode rewrite


I am aware. You can read my opinions on this game mode in NTR hut. I guess it would be a stretch, because that's how I generally play security every round, but you could say I didn't want for the round to play the same god damn way again.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Swagbringer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:12 am #398394

SoP and Space law would have to be enforced in standard rounds before you try making it a thing during Nuke OPs tbh.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:15 am #398395

starmute wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Ugh, HoP is not above HoS when he is not acting captain.


This particular debate has long been settled. The acting captain is for all intensive purposes the Captain if the original Captain is dead or MIA, otherwise its just a nations round.


Read.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:20 am #398396

Swagbringer wrote:SoP and Space law would have to be enforced in standard rounds before you try making it a thing during Nuke OPs tbh.


It always is, when I'm in charge.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby oranges » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:24 am #398397

you forgot that your RP as the head of security has to be backed up with actual in game words.

You can deny people access to the Armoury in war ops but you need a buttoned up sec team and some decent combat ability.

IC issue anyway, people are just reacting to the round playing out.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby oranges » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:30 am #398399

Also as far as I am concerned the standard rules for armoury access apply, if anyone ahelped about getting wasted for breaking into the armoury in war ops I'd mark it an IC issue.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Bluespace » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:52 am #398418

are you enjoying this game lumber?
you seem to be getting in a lot of scuffles with policy lately, and i think you might need a small break to cool off and get your love of the game back bud.
no offense intended, just calling it as i see it
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:03 am #398420

It's not the game, but the server. I want to make it great again. But that's a topic for another thread.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby J_Madison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:12 am #398421

From my old handbook when I was killing it with Repukan, Beesting, Nilons, and the rest of the sec crew;

Recall all officers in warops.
Sec gets dibs on weapons.
Lockdown the brig and tell the masses to go to cargo.
Hand out spare vests, helmets, lasers to the masses.
Hide the sec hardsuits.
Order lasers.
Let the vultures take what's left in brig.

When I played we usually had a decent captain. If the cap ordered the brig to be free access I'd threaten a coup on the spot or delay him to get my officers armed first.

You should not be giving out armoury and sensitive equipment except to bolster numbers.
Conscripted assistants do not need the ion rifle, two tasers, shotgun, and a laser rifle.

And yes, I have arrested people for walking in with all access and taking what they want. They had their equipment removed and detained and told to go to cargo.

PostThis post was deleted by CitrusGender on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:27 pm.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby CPTANT » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:30 am #398426

People should really stop pretending their way of playing the game is the only way that should be allowed.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Bluespace » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:46 am #398427

It's funny because lasers and shotguns aren't even that good against ops.
Just hand out a bunch of stunprods and batons. Chainstun + cuff and congratulations that op is outta the game.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:47 am #398428

Bluespace wrote:Just hand out a bunch of stunprods and batons.


Jokes on you, double esword blocks batons now.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:38 pm #398444

starmute wrote:The HOP is above you in the chain of command

No he's not.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Dax Dupont » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:50 pm #398447

Might be relevant to the thread since there's a discussion about it:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby imblyings » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:07 pm #398453

Chain of command is a poisonous disgusting concept in terms of server playstyle and is best left to individual player circumstances and never enshrined in server rule as an absolute. Any authority you have you derive from luck in which players are playing, what you've done in game, how good a talker you are, and how robust you are. The server and admins are not here to protect or support horrible heads of staff players, and any good head of staff player with a problem likely has other grounds than CoC to ask for admin help anyway.

oranges and cptant said what i was otherwise gonna say
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:09 pm #398455

HoP is not above the HoS. IC issue, although security should get first pick but leaving the brig closed for the entire 20 minutes is ridiculous. SoP Coc and space law are optional for a reason because they're just bad and I don't feel like they're good for this situation anyways.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:12 pm #398456

HoPs who hand out all access cards as soon as war is declared or a blob is spotted etc make me really want to spawn traitors instantly.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby J_Madison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:29 pm #398473

All IC issues.

As they've mentioned, these are player issues.

These issues rarely persist with more organised and experienced players whose playstyles and mindsets work well together.
Player mindset and playstyle changes over time usually relating to a gimmick, which can be flavours of the month.



If there was a full things you could legally do under "IC issue" the list would never end, but covering the examples here I'll testify on things I've legally done under "IC issue" and did not get punished.

Punished a HOP for giving all access without permission and around 10 crew for having all access. Resulted in HOP death and brig/death of several crew.
Executed a HOP and CE during a coup for acting Captain succession. Captain was cloned but was not allowed to return to duty due to shuttle.
Arrested and demoted HOP for giving security access without permission. Warden promoted to HOP. HOP demoted to Assistant.


Spoiler:
As for who succeeds Captain, it is usually selected by might makes right where might can be bigger armies, better tools/capability, strongest power, or more importance.

During a medical crisis, the CMO usually acts and leads.
During massive station damage, the CE usually acts and leads.
During a race to upgrade and advance, the RD usually acts and leads.
During a violent emergency, the HOS usually acts and leads.
During general events, the HOP usually acts and leads.

There's infirm army diplomacy, such as when the CMO when others are incapable and infirm due to medical conditions.
There's integrity army diplomacy, such as when the CE is able to rule the station by restricting access and resources to starve other departments into accepting his rule.
There's better army diplomacy, such as when RD is able to overpower and force other departments to submit under him as acting Captain.
There's faster army diplomacy, such as when HOS mass mobilises and places all dissidents under arrest to legitimise himself as acting Captain.
There's bigger army diplomacy, such as when a HOP challenges another Head for power, he could technically conscript and order the service, cargo, and civilian departments to help legitimise his acting Captain role.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby leibniz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:43 pm #398479

Lumbermancer wrote:Usual happens, rabble forms in front of brig, demanding weapons to get their valids on.


"Validkilling is bad" type of phrases might be meaningful in situations when an antagonist is just doing their own thing without affecting the round much, it is not really relevant in a situation when a team of badguys is coming to gun down everyone and blow up any survivors, it is not bad RP to want a gun for defence under these circustamces.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby J_Madison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:46 pm #398480

leibniz wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Usual happens, rabble forms in front of brig, demanding weapons to get their valids on.


"Validkilling is bad" type of phrases might be meaningful in situations when an antagonist is just doing their own thing without affecting the round much, it is not really relevant in a situation when a team of badguys is coming to gun down everyone and blow up any survivors, it is not bad RP to want a gun for defence under these circustamces.

yeah well here's the issue;

I want my gun because bad guys
well you can't have it, its our stuff
I'm going to get it what are you gonna do to stop you
I'm going to stop you
Conflict arises. It either defuses or one side caves in.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:20 pm #398491

cedarbridge wrote:HoPs who hand out all access cards as soon as war is declared or a blob is spotted etc make me really want to spawn traitors instantly.


???

The entire point of war ops is that the crew gets to meta to balance out the ops having an insane pile of gear, why would you punish them for playing the mode as intended?

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:23 pm #398492

Lumbermancer wrote:It's not the game, but the server. I want to make it great again.


I don't think there was ever a time in server history when players would roll over and sit around waiting unarmed while a broadcasted, station ending antag was on its way.

It isn't fun mechanically and it is not even that unreasonable from an IC standpoint to mutiny if they're being made to feel helpless and unsafe in a crisis.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:30 pm #398495

Kor wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:HoPs who hand out all access cards as soon as war is declared or a blob is spotted etc make me really want to spawn traitors instantly.


???

The entire point of war ops is that the crew gets to meta to balance out the ops having an insane pile of gear, why would you punish them for playing the mode as intended?


And old blob, while not so explicitly designed with "meta" in mind, was (ostensibly) balanced around cooperation of the entire crew fighting, so it seems weird to suggest a deficiency in the players for then cooperating.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby NikNakFlak » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:44 pm #398502

Why exactly is jmad posting in policy? Policy does not apply to you.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:47 pm #398503

cedarbridge wrote:HoPs who hand out all access cards as soon as war is declared or a blob is spotted etc make me really want to spawn traitors instantly.

Do you not consider "THERE IS A SYNDICATE STRIKE FORCE THAT IS LANDING ON YOUR STATION IN 20 MINUTES TO DETONATE A NUCLEAR BOMB" or "THERE IS AN ALIEN BIOMASS THAT IS RAPIDLY CONSUMING THE STATION AND POSES AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO HUMANITY" to be all hands on deck last ditch situations?
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:51 pm #398505

If a war ops or blob round was made into a movie, any HoS or Captain that refused to arm the crew and wasted time retaliating against them for trying to arm up would be painted as a retardedly incompetent secondary antagonist whose hard on for regulation gets everyone killed
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Stickymayhem » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:53 pm #398506

It's as simple as this, imo: You have the right to lock off all the guns and do whatever you want with your brig, and the crew has every right to fuck you up for that. Enforce your choices by keeping a loyal team, being more robust than anyone so they don't want to fuck you up or convincing people with words.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:56 pm #398508

Kor wrote:
Kor wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:HoPs who hand out all access cards as soon as war is declared or a blob is spotted etc make me really want to spawn traitors instantly.


???

The entire point of war ops is that the crew gets to meta to balance out the ops having an insane pile of gear, why would you punish them for playing the mode as intended?


And old blob, while not so explicitly designed with "meta" in mind, was (ostensibly) balanced around cooperation of the entire crew fighting, so it seems weird to suggest a deficiency in the players for then cooperating.

Because it removes what is essentially the only true distinction between roles and departments we have apart from your roundstart jumpsuit and a title on the ID card. Access is the only thing that sets a chemist apart from an assistant. I know we don't enforce player roles because it would require an entire different playstyle from the way the server here has developed, but throwing what little distinction between roles we DO have out the window and calling it a metabreak (the same reason shit like "Its revs" or "There's a wizard so there can't be traitors") rubs me the wrong way. That's really just going to have to stay a peeve though since there's certainly no policy basis for it.

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:08 pm #398511

While I agree with that in most "normal" situations, there's definitely a very justifiable IC reason for throwing access restrictions out the window when there's an imminent existential threat to the station as a whole. I think that separates it from being a lame meta concept like shouting over comms that it can't be revs because someone got caught with a radioactive scanner, since it has backing both on a mechanical and a roleplay level.
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:13 pm #398512

Tldr stop being a bad hos :^)

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:17 pm #398514

Besides sec already gets first dibs on the armory by virtue of having brig access and only needing the Warden/Hos/Captain/AI/Borg to open the shutters for them
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby J_Madison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:21 pm #398515

Shaps-cloud wrote:Besides sec already gets first dibs on the armory by virtue of having brig access and only needing the Warden/Hos/Captain/AI/Borg to open the shutters for them

No. We don't Shaps.
We need to get to the brig then we can get armed, whilst hordes of assistants with all access and a tunnel vision for the armoury will beeline in.

kevinz000 wrote:Tldr stop being a bad hos :^)

where did all the good sec go?

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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:35 pm #398517

Are you just really bad at the game because whenever there's a war ops round as a sec officer I just walk straight to the armory and help myself, most assistants who want goodies go to the HoP for all access first
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby captain sawrge » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:56 pm #398519

Shaps-cloud wrote:Are you just really bad at the game because whenever there's a war ops round as a sec officer I just walk straight to the armory and help myself, most assistants who want goodies go to the HoP for all access first

You are replying to someone who has been permabanned for months and has zero context of the current state of the game you sick sick girl
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Luke Cox » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:39 pm #398529

Handing out the armory during war ops is optional in the same way that bathing is optional.
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DemonFiren
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby DemonFiren » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:39 pm #398534

It is, you could always just shower.

Trust me on this one.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:45 pm #398536

Shaps-cloud wrote:Are you just really bad at the game because whenever there's a war ops round as a sec officer I just walk straight to the armory and help myself, most assistants who want goodies go to the HoP for all access first

What I think he means is that as a sec officer you don't actually have armory access, but Shit McGrey with all-access does. So if you want a gun as an officer you have to wait for the warden to give you one or let you in. Assistants just grab their magic card and roll in to loot the place.

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starmute
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby starmute » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:03 pm #398542

cedarbridge wrote:
Shaps-cloud wrote:Are you just really bad at the game because whenever there's a war ops round as a sec officer I just walk straight to the armory and help myself, most assistants who want goodies go to the HoP for all access first

What I think he means is that as a sec officer you don't actually have armory access, but Shit McGrey with all-access does. So if you want a gun as an officer you have to wait for the warden to give you one or let you in. Assistants just grab their magic card and roll in to loot the place.


If you have a good warden that will never happen. Use the door remote and bolt the doors. That being said you still should let them into the armory through the officers quarters.

Edit: I now regret having only a shower, not a big bath.

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Cobby
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Cobby » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:17 am #398604

You should be able to be bureaucracy pseudoantag at the cost of not QQing when you get mutinied and don't do it often enough to where it looks like you're trying to rack kills everytime war is declared.
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Swagbringer
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Swagbringer » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:46 am #398640

Maybe tg has a problem getting security officers because during revs/ops/blob/cult any assistant can just walk to brig, get implanted if necessary, then have all the benefits of playing security while having little to no drawbacks? :thinking:

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Grazyn
 
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Grazyn » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:07 am #398641

If you want to sabotage a round because you don't like the mode by all means feel free to try that, you're not the first head of staff to do this and won't be the last. However you shouldn't expect any admin intervention and consequences should all be dealt with IC (I fully understand that it feels good to to get some free killbaits off greyshirts breaking into brig/armory).

Don't try to pass it as RP though, this is pretty far from RP (being an OOC reaction to your dislike of the mode), ignoring warops announcement to carry on like nothing is happening is pretty much the same as the captain going to the bar to get drunk during confirmed rev, this isn't something I would call "high roleplay"

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Swagbringer
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Swagbringer » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:24 am #398642

Your not ignoring WarOps, you are, as head of security, making the decision to save security equipment for security officers. There is a shortage of lethals and prioritising people who are trained in their use and understand the consequences of misuse is most definitely RP.

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Grazyn
 
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Re: Does War Ops abridge the rules and roleplaying?

Postby Grazyn » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:41 am #398643

He said "he didn't really care about warops" so that's why I said "ignored", but It would be interesting to know how many officers did sec have that round, since he already mentioned the warden "wasnt' there". I really wouldn't be surprised if there were fewer officers than ops (+ eventual syndieborg), which makes it the same as ignoring the announcement (you're going against hilariously well equipped foes and numbers is the only advantage you have). It doesn't really matter what he was thinking, if the HoS doesnt' explain his reasoning to the crew (only trained officers should have lethals blah blah) and just says "lol don't care about warops" over comms then yeah, he shouldn't be surprised if the crew assume he's being a dick and mutiny.

Also call me jaded but I've seen my fair share of players who try to sabotage modes they don't like, by doing everything they can to make the round shitty for everyone else (especially easy when they're a head) and claiming to be acting in good faith, lumber isn't even trying to hide his dislike for the mode so it's hard for me to accept this wasn't another such case.

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