Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

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Should we require the HoP to adhere to a code of conduct?

Poll ended at Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
 
Total votes : 201

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby highlow » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:02 am #41028

An0n3 wrote:He doesn't need to confirm access with anyone, and unless he's giving the clown all access every round it's not an actionable happening.

He is currently completely free to do whatever he wants with that console unless it results in something so game-breakingly bad it invokes Rule 1. Eg. giving everyone in the line all access in a single round. And even then, it's unlikely the people he gave access to would complain.

If the CE fucks off at roundstart and doesn't setup the engine, we all know that he'll get yelled at.
If the HoS permabrigs everyone, or orders his Sec force to ignore the station's problems to hang out in the brig playing D&D, he'll get yelled at.

Is it not apparent that the HoP has similar methods available to them to plunge the station into chaos "just cuz", and some of them even use it fairly regularly, yet there's no precedent or expectation of an OOC response?

Does that not strike you as a problem that ought to be fixed?

With the HoS and CE examples, rounds will be ruined and people will be permanently removed from rounds, and violate rule 1. I think that anything that the HoP does that does not reach the level of breaking rule 1 causes little enough harm and has sufficient IC fixes that we don't need new rules nor admin intervention to deal with it. HoP gives out sec or armory access to people? HoS, sec, and captain usually end up dunking HoP and demoting him. HoP gives out access willy nilly? Captain usually dunks him after getting enough complaints.


An0n3 wrote:But option 2 of the poll is exactly how it currently works.

Option 2 implies that you are not helping out the station. The real poll should be "Do we need a stricter code of conduct which allows for admin intervention in a wider variety of circumstances: Yes; No"

The current poll implies that there are no situations where the HoP assigns jobs as they see fit in a way that helps the station, which I think is what happens with 80%+ of HoPs.



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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:10 am #41031

Arete wrote:Giving him more to do doesn't necessarily mean giving him more authority or giving him authority over other departments. The central argument here is that once you take the HoP's choice of who gets what access away, his job is left with essentially nothing but tedium. He can't even choose when to leave his office or else it's dereliction of duty for failing to process the transfers ordered by other heads.


I think you're taking that a bit far. Requiring him to have a second yes from the person who runs the department before he can assign someone from his department to the job doesn't remove his ability to say no himself, or shackle him to the chair.


I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but the one being proposed here will not be drawing any better players to the job.


Nor do I think that part of solution being proposed will drive any of the better players away from the job.

If having to talk to the other heads before you give people access to their departments is too much work for you as a HoP, you're really doing the bare-minimum there.

I have HoP set on high preference currently and played three rounds today without being assigned the job once (getting Detective twice and roundstart Borg once). It's never a position you see open late, it's probably the most desired head position on the station.

I don't think we have to worry too much about making sure it stays popular.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:20 am #41035

cedarbridge wrote:If this was the central argument, then it was false from the get go. The HoP never had the "choice" of who gets what access inside managed departments outside of his jurisdiction. This has always been the case. One cannot take away what never was.


On your side, you have space law, which is explicitly not a mandatory part of the game. On my side, I have first, second, and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments and not being stopped from doing so, neither by sec nor by the admins. That means the HoP currently has the choice and this thread is discussing whether it's a good idea to take that choice away.

An0n3 wrote:Nor do I think that part of solution being proposed will drive any of the better players away from the job.


Based on what I've seen, I think the problem with heads of personnel comes from having enough good players setting the job at a medium or high priority. It sounds like you're approaching this from an angle of there being too many bad players on the job, so they're the ones that need to be driven away. Is that an accurate assessment of your views?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:37 am #41037

No, I think it's a problem with what we've come to expect from the job itself.

The common perception is that he's second in command of the station, above the other heads, and therefore doesn't need to confer with them when it comes to adding more people to their department. Which, as recent rounds on the station are showing, is causing a lot of problems for other heads while he can sit comfortably in his office without a care in the world.

His job has become making his problem (a long line of people asking for promotions) into other people's problems (crowded workspaces and not enough equipment to go around).

And when he's done doing that, he gets to pet his dog, cherry pick a few pieces of gear from every other department, and go antag hunt or whatever else.

It's ridiculously unfair to the other heads of staff that he has so much authority combined with such little responsibility in how he's expected to use it. We already have the Captain to do that, but he has actual responsibilities like protecting the disk and trying to be a figurehead for the station. We kind of expect him to throw his weight around, but there's also a giant target on him all the time while he does so.

I think there are good players who, knowing there's little expectation for the HoP, just enjoy playing it as is, and if made to take the role more seriously, would be fine with the slight adjustment of having to verbally communicate with other heads. I think there likely are also bad players who enjoy HoP and will scream and cry and quit playing the job or get banned from it if we make this change.

Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:50 am #41042

Arete wrote:On your side, you have space law, which is explicitly not a mandatory part of the game. On my side, I have first, second, and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments and not being stopped from doing so, neither by sec nor by the admins. That means the HoP currently has the choice and this thread is discussing whether it's a good idea to take that choice away.

If we're legitimately boiling this down to anecdotes and calling it a day, I've had first, second and thirdhand experience with HoPs handing out access to other departments where that access was not authorized and being brigged, demoted, the new assignees demoted, or all of the above. So it seems its not as cut and dry as you'd want to believe. The HoP has never had the authority to ignore the chain of command.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:59 am #41045

Here's how it boils down to.

People play as the HoP more predominantly than the Captain because they gain the same level of access (all access) and most of the respective power but NONE of the responsibility tied to being the Captain. The Captain is still beheld to a set of responsibilities and is a high level target due to the fact he holds several very notable and wanted items (Nuke Disk, All Access, his Medal, Hand Held Teleporter, weaponry, Captain disguise, etc) whereas the HoP is only targeted for his all access.

That's it.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby CocaneStyle » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:01 am #41047

Raven776 wrote:Why should the HoP be second in command?

I don't think any of you understand what second in command means. It means the HoP suddenly has command over security, medbay, and science. Furthermore, it antiquates the captain, makes the captain inclined to make a useless HoP captain if they have to go braindead themselves, and it doesn't make any damned sense.

Why do we need two captains with one slightly below the other and not even implanted? The current system works fine, and the problem at hand isn't the HoP not getting enough respect, it's the HoP being a boring job. They don't even run out of things to do, they just can't be arsed to sit at their desk all day and do them.

And anyways, SS13 is a game about making your own fun... Fuck, if you're that bored as HoP, go build something in the spare construction room until the station blows up, steal a softsuit, and go start doing repairs. Be useful instead of whining about no respect and the HoS not letting you in to raid the armory.


Well I suggested that the HoS and Security wouldn't be under the HoP's authority but under that Captains, does that change anything?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:05 am #41049

An0n3 wrote:Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?

in all honesty i cant tell you why people play HoP more than captain, other than that maybe there's some misconception that playing as the captain actually requires effort and gives you responsibilities
in reality, the captain role is what you make it. you can become xenohunter 2000, you can micromanage all the heads and have the station running at full efficiency, or you can give the clown your spare ID and spend the round stuffing coins into the slot machine
at the worst, you'll be a target for a lot of antags. if you play captain casually that probably wont matter to you.
maybe having a sizeable number of captains who act gruff and take their job seriously has set a precedent that makes people think its a more demanding job than it is, so they take the "easier" HoP job which they think is captain #2
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:25 am #41051

An0n3 wrote:Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?


You make a strong argument for changing things from the status quo, but I still think the HoP's deal should either be sweetened a little or replaced entirely. You're asking why more people want to be HoP than want to be captain as if the number of people who want to play captain is the gold standard we should be aiming for in role desirability, and I don't agree with that.

Spawning as a head, especially the captain, should be something people look forward to, just like getting an antag role. People should go "this is my time to shine" and play their hardest to make sure they make the most of their chance. Head roles should be more competitive than standard roles, not less. I think a more important question than "Why do more people want to be the HoP than the captain," is "Why do fewer people want to be HoP than scientist?"

Though, both questions are important. So, to answer yours, I think that authority is generally not as fun as it should be on this server. Authority positions have more expected from them, but don't have a greater degree of power to match. The format of the game (being unable to walk and talk at the same time) means that it's hard to communicate in stressful situations, orders often can't be relayed or understood, and that's very frustrating for people who play authority figures. On top of that, people are always eager to rush into interesting situations regardless of whether they'll get killed or punished for it, so there's a lot of deliberate insubordination too. As the position with the most authority, this hurts the captain the most. He's the first to be blamed when a round goes badly, but his ability to control the crew is crippled from the start.

This thread is about the HoP, so I'm mostly talking about what should be done with the HoP here, but to be honest I think the captain's role is in way more need of something to make it more attractive.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cultist-chan » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:41 am #41094

The head of personnel needs reworking. There should be a failsafe system where it requires department heads to sign off on things like all access. I think it would be easier to mess with the code for the ID computers than enforce this. In addition get some pre-made paperwork for them. Making premade paperwork should be childs-play.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby bandit » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:36 am #41100

An0n3 wrote:(crowded workspaces and not enough equipment to go around).


This is not a problem with HoP. This is a problem with server populations. (And a minor problem with mapping/cargo restocking, but ultimately the root is server populations. When there are ~50 people jobs usually remain open so there is equipment to go around after all. ~100, not so much.)

Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?


Because the Captain has antag protection on and the HoP, besides rev/roundstart cult, does not. That was easy.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:53 am #41102

How does being in charge of jobs somehow give HoP authority over other departments?

An0n3, you're suggesting that HoP should be a button presser and NOTHING else. Saying that he's in charge of supply is a joke, everyone knows that cargo is run by QM and service NEVER needs supervision. That's just stupid.

Let me repeat this:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?


Seriously. Nobody has the problem with HoP being able to freely open and close slots. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PROMOTING/DEMOTING IS, ONLY IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE ROUND

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:00 pm #41103

Difference is someone who hasn't joined yet is an unknown factor ANYONE could fill that slot. The hop interacts with someone while changing their job and the head may have met them too maybe they approve whatever, you exercise on them more so due to them being there to you know judge.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:07 pm #41104

Absolute most of the time head has no idea about who the guy actually is. HoP, on the other hand, has a chance to watch them, speak with them, ask them questions, check their security records. I don't think there's a huge question of who is better informed. Then again, HoP can and should ask heads for what THEY know, but he should decide based on ALL of the information.

Let's suppose heads actually come down to talk with new guys. Then they can just use console on the bridge since apparently they can give access to their departments. In this case HoP just becomes useless.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Kuraudo » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:52 pm #41111

HoP is the spearhead of the station bureaucracy, and yet, some people are playing it in a rather childish fashion; Giving all access to some guy because he was nice, opening a bazillon clown slots, etc.

The solution can be found in the essence of bureaucracy: Making forms, and asking for people to fill them when they want a job change. Asking for a stamp from the head of department or the Captain is also necessary.
Getting a job change is not a right. The HoP is not the after-sales manager of the roundstart RNG that gave you assistant instead of mime. You have to convice him and the head of department, that you have a valid reason for switching jobs.

I'd rather play Captain than HoP, because you get the ultimate say over everything. Responsibility isn't a problem. Just hide the disk, monitor the station, give general guidelines, and delegate everything else.
HoP is all about explaining that random assistant why he can't get access to toxins, praying that he won't go "Greytide" and try to break into your office with his friends.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Malkevin » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:16 pm #41114

bandit wrote:
An0n3 wrote:(crowded workspaces and not enough equipment to go around).


This is not a problem with HoP. This is a problem with server populations. (And a minor problem with mapping/cargo restocking, but ultimately the root is server populations. When there are ~50 people jobs usually remain open so there is equipment to go around after all. ~100, not so much.)

Let me ask you this in return: why do you think so many people want to play as the HoP? Why do more people want to be the HoP than the Captain?


Because the Captain has antag protection on and the HoP, besides rev/roundstart cult, does not. That was easy.

What exactly can't cargo order that a job needs?

One job you never see HoP open extras for is janitor, something that is needed more as the round goes on and everything they need to do their job can be ordered via cargo, including an extra cart and galoshes.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:How does being in charge of jobs somehow give HoP authority over other departments?

An0n3, you're suggesting that HoP should be a button presser and NOTHING else. Saying that he's in charge of supply is a joke, everyone knows that cargo is run by QM and service NEVER needs supervision. That's just stupid.

Let me repeat this:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?


Seriously. Nobody has the problem with HoP being able to freely open and close slots. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PROMOTING/DEMOTING IS, ONLY IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE ROUND


The main complaint people have is HoPs assigning new people to security, security is antag blocked, so the majority of people asking for job changes to sec are people trying to weasel their way around that block.
Similar reasons exist for Science, Engineering/Atmos, and the Virologist. They're prime candidates for jobs antags want to blow shit up, your job as a HoP is make antags lives hard, not pawn off forcibly the responsibility to another head - that will be ebowed and eaten.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:43 pm #41119

Malkevin wrote:The main complaint people have is HoPs assigning new people to security, security is antag blocked, so the majority of people asking for job changes to sec are people trying to weasel their way around that block.
Similar reasons exist for Science, Engineering/Atmos, and the Virologist. They're prime candidates for jobs antags want to blow shit up, your job as a HoP is make antags lives hard, not pawn off forcibly the responsibility to another head - that will be ebowed and eaten.

Considering antag protection falls under metagaming. There's no doubt that giving away sensitive access can be problematic, but that is a stupid reason for turning HoP into a button presser. Captain can do the same things and people playing captain aren't really different from people playing HoP.

I can agree that antag protected jobs have a difference between people promoted and people joining, but other jobs really do not.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Kuraudo » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:09 pm #41121

The main complaint people have is HoPs assigning new people to security, security is antag blocked, so the majority of people asking for job changes to sec are people trying to weasel their way around that block.


Making loyalty implants "untraitor" people should resolve the problem. Except if the guy is a changeling.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:40 pm #41129

Traitors infiltrating security is not a problem and I mean just anything beyond "stealthily do objective" and "murder everybody" is something to value.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby bandit » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:11 pm #41142

Malkevin wrote:What exactly can't cargo order that a job needs?

One job you never see HoP open extras for is janitor, something that is needed more as the round goes on and everything they need to do their job can be ordered via cargo, including an extra cart and galoshes.


Contents of lockers, mostly -- jumpsuits, headsets, etc. I was referring mostly to either the Ideas post or the pull request (I don't remember how far it got) to make that an orderable item.

Also insulated gloves for promoted engies -- cargo does usually order more of those, but good luck getting cargonia to stop hoarding them.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Raven776 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:20 pm #41250

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Let me repeat this:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?


Seriously. Nobody has the problem with HoP being able to freely open and close slots. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PROMOTING/DEMOTING IS, ONLY IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE ROUND


Might as well give everyone all access and the captain title. Everyone can be the captain or have all access because we don't want to be unfair to the people who didn't get it before.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:13 pm #41280

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Let me repeat this:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:What is the difference between people who join from the lobby and people who HoP assigns even though you don't know anything about either and either can equally likely end up shitheads? Why should you not want people assigned so badly and why you don't ask to close slots in that case (which I've never seen happen)?


Seriously. Nobody has the problem with HoP being able to freely open and close slots. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PROMOTING/DEMOTING IS, ONLY IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE ROUND


I already answered this when I mentioned that there are limited resources and workspaces to go around in each department.

Chemistry, for example, only has two workstations in it. If the HoP decides someone asked him real nicely so he's going to add another chemist position, someone now has nothing to do.

Actually signing up for a job in the game and getting it guarantees you'll have balanced numbers and resources in your department. The game is balanced to have a certain number of slots because of the size of the map, the items on it, etc. When the HoP doesn't check to see if a department is full or not before dumping people into it, he creates a situation where now people who were supposed to be coworkers have to compete for basic resources and equipment. That's the big difference. Someone who signs up for the job in the actual job preferences panel only gets the job if the department can accomodate him. Someone who gets the job from the HoP, unless he actually does his job and asks if they need people, could be showing up to a job that has none of the necessary tools available and no room to work. Time to go run around the station and scrounge/steal/loot stuff and see if you can cobble together the stuff you're supposed to have to do your job.

That wouldn't be so bad if:

bandit wrote:
Malkevin wrote:What exactly can't cargo order that a job needs?

One job you never see HoP open extras for is janitor, something that is needed more as the round goes on and everything they need to do their job can be ordered via cargo, including an extra cart and galoshes.


Contents of lockers, mostly -- jumpsuits, headsets, etc. I was referring mostly to either the Ideas post or the pull request (I don't remember how far it got) to make that an orderable item.

Also insulated gloves for promoted engies -- cargo does usually order more of those, but good luck getting cargonia to stop hoarding them.


Existed and the HoP actually talked to Cargo to ask them to order more supplies for the jobs he's created, instead of just adding people to departments and letting everyone else sort it out. I've never heard the HoP ask Cargo to order more supplies for engineering because he just added 2-3 people to the job. The CE has to do that, or the new engineers have to come running back up the hallway and beg cargo to share some of their stuff.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:36 am #41382

An0n3 wrote:I already answered this when I mentioned that there are limited resources and workspaces to go around in each department.

Chemistry, for example, only has two workstations in it. If the HoP decides someone asked him real nicely so he's going to add another chemist position, someone now has nothing to do.

...your reasoning for forbidding HoP to decide is because they MIGHT make mistakes?

I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense. Even if we use this peace of logic, it doesn't really matter who decides, CMO, HoP or captain, since all of them are equally likely to be played by a player who makes a mistake.
An0n3 wrote:Actually signing up for a job in the game and getting it guarantees you'll have balanced numbers and resources in your department. The game is balanced to have a certain number of slots because of the size of the map, the items on it, etc. When the HoP doesn't check to see if a department is full or not before dumping people into it, he creates a situation where now people who were supposed to be coworkers have to compete for basic resources and equipment. That's the big difference. Someone who signs up for the job in the actual job preferences panel only gets the job if the department can accomodate him. Someone who gets the job from the HoP, unless he actually does his job and asks if they need people, could be showing up to a job that has none of the necessary tools available and no room to work. Time to go run around the station and scrounge/steal/loot stuff and see if you can cobble together the stuff you're supposed to have to do your job.

But HoP has tools to check whether or not slots are available. It's really quite simple. Why do you assume that HoP will just dump people into whatever departments?

This is like making people tell R&D what to research because the scientist may so happen to be incompetent and not do research properly. Seriously, this is HoP's job. Okay, captains sometimes don't secure the disk and HoS can go down to a disarm. Do we somehow manage to live with it? YES! Why should HoP be any different?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Malkevin » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:36 am #41393

Because the hop is dumping his shit on another departments door step.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:43 am #41394

So does captain who takes guns from armory at round start

I know, let's not let captain ever take them!

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Scott » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:44 am #41395

How does that even relate?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Malkevin » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:55 am #41410

Not to mention its stupid rhetoric; the captain shouldn't be taking guns from the armory because lol-im-captain anyway.
The captain shouldn't be taking guns just because he has access, just as the hos shouldn't be taking gloves just because he has access to engineering.

The captain should order extra equipment through cargo, just like everyone else. Especially considering the captain is one of the people cargo won't mess with.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:57 am #41431

Scott wrote:How does that even relate?

You want to restrict a job from ever doing a thing, because some players can misuse it.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Kuraudo » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:27 pm #41432

Existed and the HoP actually talked to Cargo to ask them to order more supplies for the jobs he's created, instead of just adding people to departments and letting everyone else sort it out. I've never heard the HoP ask Cargo to order more supplies for engineering because he just added 2-3 people to the job. The CE has to do that, or the new engineers have to come running back up the hallway and beg cargo to share some of their stuff.


The HoP can't monitor other department resources, he can only know what his crew manifest tells him, not how many gloves engineering has left, etc. So it would be logical that the task of ordering more material falls on the head of department, the CE in your example; He's the one who knows best.

But all those problems could be solved if the HoP asks for the stamp of the head of department to the one who wanna switchs jobs. Random assistant wanna be an engineer ? Make him fill a form and get it stamped by the CE. No CE ? Get it stamped by the Captain.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Random Players » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:04 pm #41434

One method I'm going to use if I ever decide to play HoP (Fat chance) is simply this:
Announce that if you want a job? PDA the boss of that job(CE, RD, CMO, HOS/Warden, QM)/the one that already has it (In the case of chef, barman, botanists) asking for permission. When you arrive at the line, hand over your ID+PDA. No permission asked at all? Goes in the disposal. Permission asked but no answer? I'll poke him over radio, but if there's no response you don't get the job.

While asking for stamped papers can be a bit much for some to bother with I realize, asking you to send a simple PDA message to a head shouldn't be too much. Or if no head avaible, a existing member of that department. (Or the holder of 'self contained' jobs, like the ones under the HoP 'directly')

Bit ranty to type this out, but I personally feel it would be a efficient system if HoPs used it.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:14 pm #41435

When I'm HoP, if someone wants a promotion/reassignment to another job I shout out on the command channel and ask their permission. If there is no answer I deny the application and ask the applicant to either seek out the relevant Head of staff or the Captain.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:14 pm #41448

Random Players wrote:One method I'm going to use if I ever decide to play HoP (Fat chance) is simply this:
Announce that if you want a job? PDA the boss of that job(CE, RD, CMO, HOS/Warden, QM)/the one that already has it (In the case of chef, barman, botanists) asking for permission. When you arrive at the line, hand over your ID+PDA. No permission asked at all? Goes in the disposal. Permission asked but no answer? I'll poke him over radio, but if there's no response you don't get the job.

While asking for stamped papers can be a bit much for some to bother with I realize, asking you to send a simple PDA message to a head shouldn't be too much. Or if no head avaible, a existing member of that department. (Or the holder of 'self contained' jobs, like the ones under the HoP 'directly')

Bit ranty to type this out, but I personally feel it would be a efficient system if HoPs used it.

This is the way it is supposed to happen in the first place. This is known as "communication." The fact that we're even having this discussion means some players feel they're above communicating with other Heads of Staff for some reason.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:44 pm #41451

>refusing someone a job because head of staff did not reply
I dunno about you, but I want to play a management job, not button presser job.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:05 pm #41456

Honestly I just give them the job if there's no response, then close a slot. Not giving someone a job change because the head of that department went braindead ten minutes into the round is just shit.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Hibbles » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:10 pm #41459

Steelpoint wrote:When I'm HoP, if someone wants a promotion/reassignment to another job I shout out on the command channel and ask their permission. If there is no answer I deny the application and ask the applicant to either seek out the relevant Head of staff or the Captain.


As usual, Steelpoint with logic and shit. This is literally all you need to do. And if he's braindead, ask the Captain. If there is no Captain or he's not responsive, guess what, you're the new Captain, assign as you please.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:21 pm #41467

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:>refusing someone a job because head of staff did not reply
I dunno about you, but I want to play a management job, not button presser job.

Protip: The Head of Personnel doesn't "manage" the heads of staff. If you want to throw your weight around, play Captain.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:44 pm #41477

cedarbridge wrote:Protip: The Head of Personnel doesn't "manage" the heads of staff. If you want to throw your weight around, play Captain.

I thought head of personnel manages, what a surprise, personnel.

But I guess HoP should have no responsibility whatsoever, since everything apart from cargo and some useless RP jobs is decided by others, just get all access and egun for free and press buttons if they really want to. That sure as hell is a great image of HoP.

If that's what people do, no wonder HoP usually goes around stealing things or playing cop. Because the alternative is so mind bogglingly stupid.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Ikarrus » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:19 pm #41485

How I do my job as HoP and how I advise others to do it is to ask for objections instead of permission. Exceptions are Command jobs (need Captain's permission) and Security (need HoS's permission) but for the most part I find that a lot of heads don't give a shit about managing their own department. If they have an issue they'll bring it up otherwise I can't have them fuck up the station through their neglect, nor will I force everyone to wait in my line for an eternity.

When I'm not administering IDs I'll patrol the station making sure the various departments is functioning reasonably well and that they have what they need to work. If I see any concerns or MIA heads I'll personally bring it up to the Captain in person. I will also periodically check in with security to make sure all the prisoners they have in perma have a legitimate reason to be in there.

Doing this, I find that I never run out of things to do as a HoP. In fact, I'm usually swamped juggling several things at once. And I like it that way.

tl;dr I act as the Captain's assistant when I'm not doing IDs. I don't push my authority around, I just make recommendations to other heads and the Captain directly. Nobody gets buttblasted and I usually get what I want.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby flazeo25 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:57 pm #41579

One of main problems with hop is that his department is all spread throughout the station unlike the other departments, plus he has no access to service channel or talking to non supply or service staff under his command without talking through pda, general chat or inperson.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:43 pm #41592

Violaceus wrote:Last time I was playing HoP had access to service channel.

Headset can only hold 2 keys (though I guess command headsets get 3?) You should have a Command key, Supply key, and Common key.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Deirun » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:43 pm #41613

cedarbridge wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Last time I was playing HoP had access to service channel.

Headset can only hold 2 keys (though I guess command headsets get 3?) You should have a Command key, Supply key, and Common key.


The HoP has a custom key, with access to Command, Supply and Service.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:50 pm #41615

Like others have posted, this is so stupidly easy to accomplish if you aren't already doing it and think it's the end of the world to have to do you're just godawful as HoP.

I've managed to finally get a few more rounds in as HoP and it's as easy as just asking at the start of the round "HoP here, check your departments and let me know who you need more of."

And BOOM. Done. You'll very quickly get back

"CMO here reporting in, could use a few more MD's."
"Only have a single atmos tech. Good on Engineers."
"RD here looks like a full house."
"There's hardly anybody in here send people to the warden to get implanted."

It's that easy. It's that stupidly easy.

Janitor wants medbay access so it's easier for him to mop everything up? It takes two seconds to ask and most CMO's will enthusiastically say yes. The level of appreciation from the other heads that you're actually doing your job and respecting their authority over their departments is nuts.

Probably the people that get angriest at me for this are the hordes of assistant players who are asking for all sorts of jobs when only Sec is hiring today. Thems the breaks. Try adjusting your jobs preferences.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:59 pm #41620

Deirun wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Violaceus wrote:Last time I was playing HoP had access to service channel.

Headset can only hold 2 keys (though I guess command headsets get 3?) You should have a Command key, Supply key, and Common key.


The HoP has a custom key, with access to Command, Supply and Service.

I guess I never noticed because I've only ever seen service use their channel twice.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:38 am #41629

And probably because it's green like the common channel.

Seriously, who made it green? Make it grey :)
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:43 am #41667

Ikarrus wrote:And probably because it's green like the common channel.

Seriously, who made it green? Make it grey :)

The other thing is that most of service doesn't move very far away from their spawn areas and their spawns are all pretty close together. The only part of service the barkeep really ever talks to is the chef and he's within earshot already. Same for the chef and botany. Anything else he needs he can send to botany via request console. Nobody uses the service channel because there's no reason to unless you're the HoP but I can't say I've ever seen a HoP actually do anything interesting with the service department. This is especially sad because he can exercise his authority over both service and supply to do a lot of kinda fun gimmicks, but it almost never happens.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:54 am #41668

An0n3 wrote:Probably the people that get angriest at me for this are the hordes of assistant players who are asking for all sorts of jobs when only Sec is hiring today. Thems the breaks. Try adjusting your jobs preferences.

>trying to invalidate opinion you do not like by making assumptions that have no relevance to problem in question.
Also you're wrong.
cedarbridge wrote:I guess I never noticed because I've only ever seen service use their channel twice.

Usually when I use it either nobody answers or may be one person replies and then I stop hearing from them.
An0n3 wrote:Like others have posted, this is so stupidly easy to accomplish if you aren't already doing it and think it's the end of the world to have to do you're just godawful as HoP.

I've managed to finally get a few more rounds in as HoP and it's as easy as just asking at the start of the round "HoP here, check your departments and let me know who you need more of."

And BOOM. Done. You'll very quickly get back

"CMO here reporting in, could use a few more MD's."
"Only have a single atmos tech. Good on Engineers."
"RD here looks like a full house."
"There's hardly anybody in here send people to the warden to get implanted."

It's that easy. It's that stupidly easy.

Uh, it's even easier to look at your console. There it says "Scientist 5/5".

It's that easy. It's that stupidly easy. Like, why can't I make my own decision based on that?

It's actually quite a bit harder for heads to know this stuff because they have to go through crew manifest or PDA list to know the exact numbers.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:09 am #41672

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's that easy. It's that stupidly easy. Like, why can't I make my own decision based on that?

It's actually quite a bit harder for heads to know this stuff because they have to go through crew manifest or PDA list to know the exact numbers.

A competent RD knows when they have enough scientists to effectively man all of the stations. It doesn't matter how many the manifest reads or how many slots there are. If the RD thinks his department only needs one guy in xeno then he really doesn't need nor probably want an extra guy sent up from the HoP. Before you jump back into "but late joins are the same!" it doesn't really matter IC. IC those late joins are shipped in from Central. If the RD didn't want more staff, he can take it up with them after the shift is over (or via the comms console if he's feeling cheeky.) If YOU send that extra chucklefuck to what the RD considers an already well-staffed department, he gets to take it out on you because you're the one who made the reassignment, not Central.

I legit cannot understand why you have this need to manage the other departments or exercise this extra control over them simply because you have a console that allows you to fuck with the number of people assigned to those departments. And through it all you still cannot understand why a head of staff would be upset about this. I mean, if you cannot even process why what you want to do pisses people off, I don't think the station's HR job is for you. Again, if you want to micromanage the other heads of staff and their departments, play captain.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:58 am #41718

cedarbridge wrote:I legit cannot understand why you have this need to manage the other departments or exercise this extra control over them simply because you have a console that allows you to fuck with the number of people assigned to those departments.

Because that's almost all there is to the job?

Frankly it's like asking "why you have this need to manage other people or exercise this extra control over them simply because you have access to the department office and a shiny ID".

Because it's part of the fucking job, that's why.
cedarbridge wrote:it doesn't really matter IC.

Oh shit, I'm sorry I would like to prioritize letting people have fun over "roleplay".

Honestly, you all think that extra pair of hands is bad? Have you looked at them? Have you talked to them? May be they know the department better than you. May be they're better suited to be fucking department head. Am I supposed to turn them away just because you want your precious insulated gloves to sit in the locker being useless.

The fact of the matter is, heads aren't always right.

Okay, actually, let's change the subject. Let's suppose we take away HoP's ability to assign jobs. I'm sorry, assigning access to ID doesn't really count since it is literally only pressing buttons.

What's left:
1) Assigning cargo and service
2) Supposedly supervise cargo and service

Is that really all you guys want HoP to do?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Scott » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:25 am #41724

>heads aren't always right

That's not for you, as HoP, to decide. If it's not your department, you have no authority.

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