Security ignoring the Law.

[FrostFenex]

So after playing on this server for a while I have noticed a few troubling things. the biggest I will
be talking about is the fact that many of security I have witnessed have blatantly ignored space law.
An example of this which I have seen many times is when just decides to kill clowns or give them harsher
sentences for being clowns or just killing or peram reading criminals who deserve 5 minute brig times at most.
I also understand that space law is to be interpreted but I feel these are just a bit extreme, and to fix it I think we should use this thread to develop ideas and solutions to this vast problem .

[Erbbu]

[FrostFenex]

I did state that I knew space law is to be interpreted rather that strict but I feel
that the things I already mentiond are too extreme and must be discouraged
somehow without using admins.

[Vekter]

Hi, yeah, so typically, space law is meant to be a general guideline instead of actual rules. Security isn't required to follow them, but failing to can result in them doing a shitty job.

I'm moving this to policy discussion, since it involves server rules.

[FrostFenex]

Okay I see I need to rephrase my post as it wasn't't correctly understood.
I think we need to find ways to make security less likely to do things so far
away of space law that it is ridiculous.

[Raven776]

Or people could be less of a shitler against security.

Most of the time, when security is overbrigging someone, it's because the person who's in there has pointed a target on security's back. What does this mean?

You've suddenly got a player who can take you out of the round who is abstaining from doing so in favor of a five minute brig sentence. Are you happy with their restraint? Nope, you're still pissed and likely ahelping if you can murder them because you din do nuffin' wrong and they're so mean.

Anything less than a 5 minute brig sentence is a joke. 2-3 minutes is almost okay, but 1-2 minute sentences aren't really a detraction from the round.

Just be glad when security doesn't rob people or throw them out of the brig lacking an ID/jumpsuit/their nonharmful completely important stuff like beakers or hypospray.

[cedarbridge]

Okay I see I need to rephrase my post as it wasn't't correctly understood.
I think we need to find ways to make security less likely to do things so far
away of space law that it is ridiculous.

I'm not entirely sure you know what you're asking here. On the one hand you acknowledge that Space Law is a set of guidelines and not a hard, fast code to which all must appeal (some do and they're called lawyers and have an office outside of sec.) On the other hand you want to hem in security and require they abide more closely to a vague set of optional guidelines.

If you want to browbeat security for not following spacelaw to the letter, play lawyer.

[Spacemanspark]

I tend to make a lot of players mad by actually following Space Law.
Kind of funny, really, that players will suicide/ ghost over three minute crimes here. It's not like the hilarious amount of time you can be serving in the brig on Baystation/ Paradise (probably the best example because the behavior there is similar to /tg/'s in a fashion, Space Law is just something you're expected to use there.)/ etc., where you can't get perma until committing enough crimes to get up to sixty minutes (Granted Baystation doesn't even have a permabrig, and the space law is much different than it is here.). They have a law for insulting an officer. What I'm trying to say is that it's not really a big deal to serve a two minute sentence, honestly, and I don't see why players remove themselves from the game over it. But that seems to be the main issue with Space Law here at the moment, provided that your prisoners don't ghost before reaching the brig.

[Steelpoint]

The amusing thing is that if you follow Space Law to the letter you're going to really piss of a lot of people. You can easily find a reason to brig someone over a very minor infraction.

It's not in your interests, as security, to follow space law to the letter.

[ThatSlyFox]

An example of this which I have seen many times is when just decides to kill clowns or give them harsher
sentences for being clowns or just killing or peram reading criminals who deserve 5 minute brig times at most.
I also understand that space law is to be interpreted but I feel these are just a bit extreme, and to fix it I think we should use this thread to develop ideas and solutions to this vast problem .

Just a problem with our current policy. A security officer can get away with almost anything if you do a minor crime and up.

Solution: Redo security policies(or enforce them better). Talking shit shouldn't equal death/ban. Let's see how the admins handle This.

[Spacemanspark]

An example of this which I have seen many times is when just decides to kill clowns or give them harsher
sentences for being clowns or just killing or peram reading criminals who deserve 5 minute brig times at most.
I also understand that space law is to be interpreted but I feel these are just a bit extreme, and to fix it I think we should use this thread to develop ideas and solutions to this vast problem .

Just a problem with our current policy. A security officer can get away with almost anything if you do a minor crime and up.

Solution: Redo security policies(or enforce them better). Talking shit shouldn't equal death/ban. Let's see how the admins handle This.

Psyentific went a little far with that one, honestly.
Though that clown did deserve one (1) harmbaton by that point.

[Sum Ting Wong]

I like the flexibility our currency sec policy gives us. As said a few times already, your chances are becoming That Guy are proportional to how close you follow space law. I don't want to lock people up for 20+ minutes over something like breaking and entering, just give them a small break from being destructive.

Not sure what to do about sec being shitlers though.

[Psyentific]

Space Law is a suggestion. Granted, it's a pretty good suggestion; Like the guidebook for "How to not be shitcurity"

[Malkevin]

Clowns (and to an extent mimes and assistants) get harsher sentences because its generally accepted that these roles are only played by people that want to fuck around with others.

Like at the moment every round I've played sec I've seen a clown called Syndicate Operative barge into sec and claim they have a right to be there because the stupid fuck of a hop gave them access.
The only reason they've gone to the trouble of getting that access and then flaunting it around the brig is to antagonise security... as a non-antag.

Not too long ago there was another clown that repeatedly, over several rounds, would expose the grilles at the top of the security corridor.
Causing officers get to zapped for a shit ton of health, usually their prisoner would then run away.
This was causing a major disruption, and they were always doing this as a non-antag.

That is the mentality of the average clown player.
That is why security hates them.

[Spacemanspark]

Once had a mime that broke into high security areas to get a telescopic baton, a cyborg tried to stop her, so they attempted (and failed) to space the cyborg. They are later brought into the brig. I add up the total crimes via space law (Sabotage, major trespass, theft, and possession of a weapon.), being the only security officer at the time. I felt quite nice that day, so I stuck them in for about seven minutes instead of the full sentence, and walk away to deal with other things.

Cue the escape shuttle scene. The captain walks in first, followed the the Head of Personnel and the... new mime Head of Security.
I inform the captain what the mime did earlier, and the captain replies with 'So I hear you've had a bit of an attitude problem.'.
Oh fuck.
Mime PDA's me, telling me I'm fired, and approaches me with an energy gun in hand.
The next part was a four/ five on one combat scenario, with the mime and two security officers attacking me. I nearly managed to get away, when the captain comes in and starts firing lasers at me, for some reason. Head of Personnel may have gotten in on it as well. Nearly ended up killed.

My point? I fucking hate mimes. They are utter assholes, sometimes even worse than the clown, when they want to be.
The mime was Erin Wake, however, so it might have just been that.

[ThatSlyFox]

I feel like the captain was the real dick in that story. Sure the mime did some stuff but the captain promoting them and taking their word over yours is dumb.

[omnitricks]

The fact is when Security ignores the law, especially to be dicks you would be stuck with over the top sentences, perma, gulag, demotions, items stolen, etc but we cannot do anything about that. If we try to get it back they are protected by the security protection rules because "they are doing their jobs" and we shouldn't be going against them. Even if you use non lethal means. Bannu or round ruined. Choose one mates.

[Malkevin]

The third option is to not be a dick and not break the law, if you do that you won't get on sec's radar and thus won't be arrested and be subject to the untermensch special modifier.

But then again, if you wanted to contribute to the round as a legit crewman you would've picked anything but clown

[ThatSlyFox]

Sometimes people get arrested for being a the wrong place at the wrong time. OR stumbling into a area they shouldn't have been in. Which is innocent if you ask me.

Story: playing as clown and drawing shit in escape. Arrested for 5 minutes because of vandalism. Sure I could have fought against it or saxed around but I would have gotten my shit kicked in and it would have been considered valid. Clown is suffering.

[Psyentific]

Clowns (and to an extent mimes and assistants) get harsher sentences because its generally accepted that these roles are only played by people that want to fuck around with others.

Like at the moment every round I've played sec I've seen a clown called Syndicate Operative barge into sec and claim they have a right to be there because the stupid fuck of a hop gave them access.
The only reason they've gone to the trouble of getting that access and then flaunting it around the brig is to antagonise security... as a non-antag.

Not too long ago there was another clown that repeatedly, over several rounds, would expose the grilles at the top of the security corridor.
Causing officers get to zapped for a shit ton of health, usually their prisoner would then run away.
This was causing a major disruption, and they were always doing this as a non-antag.

That is the mentality of the average clown player.
That is why security hates them.

But then again, if you wanted to contribute to the round as a legit crewman you would've picked anything but clown

[ThatSlyFox]

Clowning around is contributing. Without the clown morale would drop.

[Cipher3]

Okay I see I need to rephrase my post as it wasn't't correctly understood.
I think we need to find ways to make security less likely to do things so far
away of space law that it is ridiculous.

If you're really aggrieved by it, adminhelp.

[Fatal]

You can usually tell who the decent security officers are by how much of the law they ignore, because, as others have said, generally following space law to the letter just gets people really pissed off (although if someone is a shitter I will do it, and when they complain, throw the Space Law book at them)

Stealing stuff as security or actually committing crimes is pretty shocking though, I've seen a few do it, that is the sort of thing I'd like to see less of (and I don't mean confiscating tools used in a crime, I mean stealing yellow gloves from people you bring in)

I'd like to see more laws in space law regarding dealing with heads of staff and HoP in particular, pretty much 50% of the time I am security or Captain, there will be some issue with the HoP, but that's for another thread

[Amelius]

You can usually tell who the decent security officers are by how much of the law they ignore, because, as others have said, generally following space law to the letter just gets people really pissed off (although if someone is a shitter I will do it, and when they complain, throw the Space Law book at them)

Stealing stuff as security or actually committing crimes is pretty shocking though, I've seen a few do it, that is the sort of thing I'd like to see less of (and I don't mean confiscating tools used in a crime, I mean stealing yellow gloves from people you bring in)

I'd like to see more laws in space law regarding dealing with heads of staff and HoP in particular, pretty much 50% of the time I am security or Captain, there will be some issue with the HoP, but that's for another thread

But Fatal, who DOESN'T love HoPurity?

Jokes aside, if the server is at a middling population (30-40) and a Captain is present, the HoP doesn't really have much to be doing after the initial rush and can do pretty much anything his heart desires, so long as he returns to his post every so often or when called. If there isn't a Captain, then there's no harm in him taking up the mantle and juggling the job, along with security around the bridge (it would be silly to ignore a crime and call it in while cowering in the HoPbooth/bridge, when you yourself have an egun and cuffs to handle the situation yourself. With 30-40 people you tend to only have 9-2 members of security, tops, anyway).

Just sayan.

[srifenbyxp]

The main problem with most of the security officers is that they follow the Fuck All Policy, meaning just because they can be shit, means they will. Instead of actually talking to you they'll tase you, drag you to the brig and set 3+ minutes to your time even when you cooperate. I had to admin help this a few days ago because not only did they not tell me what I was brigged for, they wouldn't say a dam word to me and kept extending my time from 3 minutes + 4 + 5. A decent security officer will tase you for being stupid, tell you to stop, and walk away for petty infractions. A "good" security officer even when dragged to the brig would ask what your being brigged for, if no reply he'll either give you less than a minutes or let you go on the fucking spot. But the rarest of officers has priorities, dear sweet mother of god it's like a dam superpower.

I'd like to see this example of a good security officer happen more than once a blue moon but then again, wants are nice aren't they?

[cedarbridge]

The main problem with most of the security officers is that they follow the Fuck All Policy, meaning just because they can be shit, means they will. Instead of actually talking to you they'll tase you, drag you to the brig and set 3+ minutes to your time even when you cooperate. I had to admin help this a few days ago because not only did they not tell me what I was brigged for, they wouldn't say a dam word to me and kept extending my time from 3 minutes + 4 + 5. A decent security officer will tase you for being stupid, tell you to stop, and walk away for petty infractions. A "good" security officer even when dragged to the brig would ask what your being brigged for, if no reply he'll either give you less than a minutes or let you go on the fucking spot. But the rarest of officers has priorities, dear sweet mother of god it's like a dam superpower.

I'd like to see this example of a good security officer happen more than once a blue moon but then again, wants are nice aren't they?

I've threatened to brig/recommend for demotion more than one officer (as the Warden) for bringing to the brig/brigging random crew without bothering to respond when asked about charges. Those same mutesec officers don't even respond to superiors when questioned. Pretty terrible really.

[dezzmont]

I have had to deal with sec officers telling me to fuck off when I am the HoS and asking them to tell me minor details about a crimescene like "where the fuck are you?" and one time a detective tried to murder someone literally in front of me and called me shitcurity when I arrested them.

[Mastigos]

If someone's being a total shitbag when I'm Sec, I'll toss them in the brig, but otherwise I usually just tase them, tell them to stop, and go about my day. Unless they're a clown, at which point I shoot on sight, cuff them to a swivel chair and pull them around the hallways for a few minutes just because.

[Ikarrus]

Admins should be scrutinizing sentences higher than the 10min limit on the brig timer (a limit which is intentionally set for this reason).

If you feel your sentence was excessive at this point you should get an admin to look into it for you.

For the most part anything under 10 minutes is an IC issue, provided you were actually charged for crimes. Security shouldn't be making wordless arrests.

Space law is still an IC ruleset, and has little meaning OOC. Unless you guys actually want to change this.

[bandit]

The problem with security is that the only checks on their power is the administration. Under other circumstances there'd be multiple checks:

- Space Law, the document (and yes, I do think it should be official, or at least more official than it is now)
- The lawyer or, on other servers, Internal Affairs
- The chain of command, i.e. orders from the HoS/Warden/Captain not to be shit
- The possibility of security officers being antags, meaning security is something other than the Infallible Validhunting Squad

All of this either does not exist, is deprecated or does fuckall in 99% of rounds (and in 99% of the remaining 1%, security doesn't care). Therefore, the only consequences come from the admins, which produces the kind of adversarial admins/security relationship we see all the time.