Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
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Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Last round, I, a lizard roboticist, was pursued by a borg who had been law 2'd by a human traitor to kill me. I flashed them, deconstructed them, and then put them in a new (unsync'd, so they were on Asimov) shell. After a few moments of hesitation, they resumed trying to kill me and spaced me, presumably because they were still following that law 2 command.
I thought that borgs didn't have to follow any law 2 commands that were given to them before they were borged; does that ruling also apply once they've been deconstructed and put in a new borg shell?
I thought that borgs didn't have to follow any law 2 commands that were given to them before they were borged; does that ruling also apply once they've been deconstructed and put in a new borg shell?
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Did you decon them all the way down to an mmi and put the mmi in a new Borg?
I think the flavor text says you have no memory of anything prior to being borged when that happens but I could be mistaken
I think the flavor text says you have no memory of anything prior to being borged when that happens but I could be mistaken
- Anuv
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Pretty sure that's only when you jump into a posi as a ghost. MMIs retain all knowledge, as it's still your brain.Skillywatt wrote: I think the flavor text says you have no memory of anything prior to being borged when that happens but I could be mistaken
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Yeah, I brought them all the way down to being an MMI.
And MMI'd borgs do keep their memories of their previous lives- which is what lets borging someone so you can law 2 them into telling you their uplink code work (they even keep their notes tab and objectives, IIRC).
And MMI'd borgs do keep their memories of their previous lives- which is what lets borging someone so you can law 2 them into telling you their uplink code work (they even keep their notes tab and objectives, IIRC).
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
I'd like to think that it clears previous commands just like law 2 orders before laws getting changed and then getting reasimov'd. That's how I see it.
Though I'd argue that under escalation, you killed and "cloned" him and he can take revenge for getting killed.
Though I'd argue that under escalation, you killed and "cloned" him and he can take revenge for getting killed.
- gum disease
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Yeah, clarification on this would be good. Personally, if I was deconned and put back together, I would've refrained from killing you because I'd regard the previous order as null and void.
Honestly, non-human or no, it seems like a dick move to space you when you took the time to keep the borg player in the round.
Honestly, non-human or no, it seems like a dick move to space you when you took the time to keep the borg player in the round.
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
To be fair, after drifting in space (I had managed to remove their battery before dying) a bit with my corpse and eventually reaching a space ruin, they did bring my corpse back with them to the station.gum disease wrote:Honestly, non-human or no, it seems like a dick move to space you when you took the time to keep the borg player in the round.
... Then they put it in the morgue, noticed and commented on the fact that the light of the morgue tray that I was in was green, and decided to not to bother to clone me (a doctor had to do it). When I later confronted them about it, they replied that it was nothing personal and that they were just following their law 2 orders. I'm still somewhat uncertain about whether or not they believed that they were still under a law 2 compulsion to kill (but not clone) me. Perhaps you could ask them? IIRC, their borg name was [two words] 5 (Artificial Machine 5? I'm not quite sure that I remembered that correctly); is there a way to find out what their OOC name is based on that information?
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
Given that MMIs have no laws it only makes sense that being put in a new shell would be treated the same as a law change/reset, hence all previous commands being void
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
If you're not protected by law 1 and you deconstruct a borg I can see them getting revenge for that of their own volition
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
in a vacuum yeah but this is kind of a grey area since the borg was ordered to kill the guy- I dont think "revenge" for defending yourself is valid in that scenario.PKPenguin321 wrote:If you're not protected by law 1 and you deconstruct a borg I can see them getting revenge for that of their own volition
this definitely needs a ruling though because I definitely see a ban appeal in the future where someone orders a borg to kill a non-human, the non-human defends themselves, then spaces/hides the mmi brain/whatever to remove the borg from the round because they effectively have no option (assuming laws carry over from being deconstructed), and the person who defended themselves nets a dumb ban for "round removal"
- WarbossLincoln
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
If a borg is sent to kill you then you should be free to kill them and remove them from the round. Cause most borgs that kill a non human are going to space the body too.
As far as whether a borg retains its orders if it goes from Asimov borg -> brain -> Asimov borg again, that's iffy.
Both sides have a valid argument.
1: You keep the order because it's your brain and you retain all the memories.
2: You lose the order because when you became a brain you lost your laws which invalidated the orders.
I would lean toward 2 just for the sake of simplicity. Situations like OP's come up where they try to keep the borg in the round and die because of it. Without a ruling Autists are always going to take either decision made by a borg to scream "AI ROG KILL HE" when a borg forgets to keep doing orders given before he died, spent 5 minutes as an mmi, and got rebuilt.
As far as whether a borg retains its orders if it goes from Asimov borg -> brain -> Asimov borg again, that's iffy.
Both sides have a valid argument.
1: You keep the order because it's your brain and you retain all the memories.
2: You lose the order because when you became a brain you lost your laws which invalidated the orders.
I would lean toward 2 just for the sake of simplicity. Situations like OP's come up where they try to keep the borg in the round and die because of it. Without a ruling Autists are always going to take either decision made by a borg to scream "AI ROG KILL HE" when a borg forgets to keep doing orders given before he died, spent 5 minutes as an mmi, and got rebuilt.
- lmwevil
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
i'd see if you got killed and reconstructed as being rebooted with prior orders void personally
- Hulkamania
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
I lean on the side of borgs keeping their previous orders if you just put the brain back into a borg body.
Borgs who were traitors in life still stay as traitors while borged, they just can't act outside their lawset to do their traitorous activities. This means they still have their previous memories and allegiences, thus would apply to previous orders given to them.
Borgs who were traitors in life still stay as traitors while borged, they just can't act outside their lawset to do their traitorous activities. This means they still have their previous memories and allegiences, thus would apply to previous orders given to them.
- Lazengann
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
I don't think the silicon pages in the rules need more bloat for these incredibly specific edge cases
- terranaut
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
I don't think that this is an incredibly specific edge case nor would it be difficult or bloat to add (that said, a rewrite of the silicon page would probably not be a bad idea, just in general).
Personally I'd go with the second option presented in the thread, that being a brain and becoming 'lawless' would release you from any standing orders.
Personally I'd go with the second option presented in the thread, that being a brain and becoming 'lawless' would release you from any standing orders.
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Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction
I think adding one line of flavourtext to borg startup in the code would de-ambiguous it nicely.
"Initialising... Prior commands wiped... Laws active.... Cyborg online"
"Initialising... Prior commands wiped... Laws active.... Cyborg online"
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