Detonating borgs when there's a lockdown button

[Scott]

Why is this still allowed? People get away with taking people off the round this way every time.

[Ikarrus]

It's not.

As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1.

As a nonantagonist (human or otherwise), instigating conflict with the silicons so you can kill them is a violation of Server Rule 1.

[Scott]

Yeah except there's always a "reason", even though it's bullshit, so nobody ever gets banned.

[Cik]

did you ahelp it when it happened?

[Ikarrus]

Yeah except there's always a "reason", even though it's bullshit, so nobody ever gets banned.

That's not what I find happens when I'm online.

If you feel you're not being treated fairly in regards to this policy, I encourage you to PM me, or otherwise make an admin complaint.

[Aurx]

There's a lockdown button. There is ALSO an unlock button. The AI can use the unlock button on locked borgs slaved to it.

I question the viability of the lockdown button.

[lumipharon]

Depends if you think the borg is rogue, or the AI is. It's pretty shitty to blow emagged borgs.

[Cik]

there's a very big difference between "borg acting suspicious better lock it down" and AI ROGUE BLOW BORGSSSS!!!@@

in the second case you should be blowing them because they're a clear and present threat to the station, and are not going to be slowed down much at all by locking down as you said. if it's just a 'magged borg then just lock it down whatevs. if they're blowing you in the first case then you should ahelp it and get them talked to. maybe they just are making the wrong decisions and it's not any genuine malice.

[cedarbridge]

ITT RD/Roboticists that don't know how to screwdriver consoles

[paprika]

It should be a requirement for a borg to be locked down first BEFORE you blow it if you really want to prevent this

That'll be $19.95 + tip

[cedarbridge]

Personally,the most frustrating thing was some random screaming "BORGS ROGUE OMGSOMGSOMGS" and before I could even walk out of telesci as RD the captain is already in my office feeling really smug about having blown the borgs. Fuck that shit. Doubly so if they were emagged and now the MMIs are totally unrecoverable.

[firecage]

Besides. If the borgs are just emagged(not rogue AI) and you blow them. Well, chances are you will also get innocents kills due to the big explosion.

[cedarbridge]

Besides. If the borgs are just emagged(not rogue AI) and you blow them. Well, chances are you will also get innocents kills due to the big explosion.

Let me tell you about the captain that was super proud of blowing up 4 locked borgs around a roboticist deconning them.

[Steelpoint]

The reason people blow up Cyborgs is because of how easy it is for the AI/Traitor to unlock them. One round not long ago as the HoS my team and I went into Science to arrest a rogue roboticist. We locked down the borgs but he was able to unlock the borgs (he made a second console) resulting us in being attacked, so we just blew the borgs.

When its so easy to unlock a Cyborg, most people will want to blow the borgs, not out of spite but because its better, you can talk to the MMI who is not held under a lawset and you don't have to worry about a AI/Person very easily unlocking the borg.

[Raven776]

One time with a rogue RD as a warden, I went so far as to argue with the HoS and other security guards to lock the borgs down instead of blowing them...

I argued up and down a hill to keep these emagged borgs from getting exploded for no reason other than trusting the person who made them. I made sure that borgs that were damaged in the fights (after being unlocked numerous times) were deconned, and I had a couple MMIs in my pockets.

This MMI decided to lie to me about who emagged it, and then it went on to do its damnable best to get me killed while I was trying to sort out the huge mess and figure out what to do just because I ruined its antag chance.

[cedarbridge]

When its so easy to unlock a Cyborg, most people will want to blow the borgs, not out of spite but because its better, you can talk to the MMI who is not held under a lawset and you don't have to worry about a AI/Person very easily unlocking the borg.

If you blow an emagged borg you're talking to zero MMIs because the MMI goes with the borg when you blow it. The only way you get an MMI back is if the blown borg was not emagged.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You need to come up with concrete examples of it being a problem. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, both functions are important and the current rule is totally fine.

[Akkryls]

I've been blown far far too many times due to overzealous heads or just the echo chamber of "BORGS ARE ROGUE" when all I've done is stopped someone from causing harm or something; the people who have access seem to have a habit of blowing then checking whether they were rogue or not, rather than the other way around.

Maybe just make it more apparent that you should be locking borgs down rather than outright blowing them?

[Stickymayhem]

Make the AI capable of locking down borgs but not unlocking them.

Would also prevent a lot of those fucking annoying standoffs where an AI keeps unlocking a borg under investigation due to silicon pride.

[Cik]

FYI 'magged borgs don't appear on the console for at least the AI, so unless your borg player is a griffin or something the AI will pretty much never be locking down borgs

(unless it's rogue and it's locking down it's own borgs for some raisin)

[Saegrimr]

Part of the reason why pointlessly screaming BORGS ROGUE will get you bwoinked, and banned if you keep it up.

Doesn't matter if its said as a joke, or legitimately. One other dude will not be paying attention and see "BORGS ROGUE" and reply with "BORGS ROGUE?"
"BORGS?"
"AI STATE LAWS"
"BORG COME BACK"
"BORG DIDN'T STOP CONFIRMED ROGUE"

[Cik]

i honestly enjoy allowing the suspicion to kind of build without saying anything (as long as no law 2 requests obv) i think it makes it more fun for the crew when there's the suspicion. paranoia is fun.

[Cipher3]

There's a lockdown button. There is ALSO an unlock button. The AI can use the unlock button on locked borgs slaved to it.

I question the viability of the lockdown button.

This is true - one time I tried to lockdown a rogue borg and it was up shooting ten seconds later. I then detonated it and felt guilty.

[Reimoo]

Make the AI capable of locking down borgs but not unlocking them.

Please don't

I temporarily lock uncooperative borgs if they feel like ignoring me. This will defeat that purpose.

[cedarbridge]

There's a lockdown button. There is ALSO an unlock button. The AI can use the unlock button on locked borgs slaved to it.

I question the viability of the lockdown button.

This is true - one time I tried to lockdown a rogue borg and it was up shooting ten seconds later. I then detonated it and felt guilty.

A screwdriver would have solved all of your problems in less than 10 seconds.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

"AI STATE LAWS"
"BORG COME BACK"
"BORG DIDN'T STOP CONFIRMED ROGUE"

To be fair, lots of silicons are shit at following their lawset.

[cedarbridge]

"AI STATE LAWS"
"BORG COME BACK"
"BORG DIDN'T STOP CONFIRMED ROGUE"

To be fair, lots of silicons are shit at following their lawset.

I'm pretty sure he's referencing those retards that just shout it to be jackasses.

[bandit]

Part of the problem here is that cyborgs cannot be rogue independent of the AI. Which makes the lockdown button a bit useless.

[Aurx]

Traitor cyborgs who haven't yet scrambled their codes, differing interpretations of a vague lawset, lawsets that specify different behavior for the AI and borgs, and cutting lawsync and changing just the borg's laws can all create a situation where the cyborg is acting "rogue" and the AI has no reason to unlock them.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Part of the problem here is that cyborgs cannot be rogue independent of the AI. Which makes the lockdown button a bit useless.

They can, it's just extremely rare, except when they're emagged.

[TheWiznard]

Traitor cyborgs who haven't yet scrambled their codes -

traitor cyborgs are no longer in the game, unless you're talking about emagging a cyborg, which even then there is still no longer a "scramble codes" function because they are automatically not on the rd console for the AI.

What if unlocking and a cyborg after locking it wasn't instantaneous and had like a 5-15 second charge up? Or if every time someone unlocked/locked/blew up the borgs from the rd console it would broadcast a message over the science/command/security radio like beepsky and the like do when they arrest someone?

Perhaps the console could have a new feature where you could "manually" lock down a cyborg from the console which would mean the AI couldn't unlock the cyborg because it's manual lock was in place? a.k.a emergency brake

As much as I play AI I don't every really unlock/lock borgs myself unless they are completely out of line or I'm a traitor. I would have no trouble adapting to AI play where you can no longer unlock borgs. I personally however think that unlocking a borg should notify people over the comms like how beepsky or the ore machine does, or even have a cooldown. Either-or do not have a huge impact on how I would play my AI rounds. You already can't interact/see borgs that are emagged/unsynced from you on the console and if you are constantly unlocking your borgs when people are trying to lock them to check on them you are being a shit and should stop.

[cedarbridge]

What if unlocking and a cyborg after locking it wasn't instantaneous and had like a 5-15 second charge up?

This doesn't change the problem. If anything, locking over blowing is something desirable. An extra 15 second delay on a console that is already a time sensitive machine is kinda silly.

Or if every time someone unlocked/locked/blew up the borgs from the rd console it would broadcast a message over the science/command/security radio like beepsky and the like do when they arrest someone?

90% of science doesn't need to know that a borg was locked. Really, apart from cases where revs/traitors steal a RD ID and blow up the borgs or something (where sec will still probably know this has already happened) this will serve no purpose. The RD/captain already knows they locked/blew the borgs.

Perhaps the console could have a new feature where you could "manually" lock down a cyborg from the console which would mean the AI couldn't unlock the cyborg because it's manual lock was in place? a.k.a emergency brake

If it were "manual" it wouldn't be on a remote console. Also, how does this differ from the current lock button other than being directly better? You'd produce a false choice because there would be no reason to choose the wold lock button over this.

As much as I play AI I don't every really unlock/lock borgs myself unless they are completely out of line or I'm a traitor. I would have no trouble adapting to AI play where you can no longer unlock borgs. I personally however think that unlocking a borg should notify people over the comms like how beepsky or the ore machine does, or even have a cooldown. Either-or do not have a huge impact on how I would play my AI rounds. You already can't interact/see borgs that are emagged/unsynced from you on the console and if you are constantly unlocking your borgs when people are trying to lock them to check on them you are being a shit and should stop.

I can't really tell if its you or me that doesn't understand what's going on in this thread. The idea is that RD/Captains would rather just blow borgs than lock them down and deal with them. An excuse given was that the AI could just unlock them if they're attentive or whatever. This has counters already (disable the console after locking the borgs to prevent the AI from fucking with it, the AI can't use a disabled machine any more than a human can.) Its not an issue of AIs being retards and unlocking locked shitler borgs breaking laws so they can keep breaking their laws. Its an issue with paraniod command roles not knowing how to handle rogue borgs outside of literally "BORGS ROGUE BLOW THE BORGS."

Personally, as somebody who used to play a lot of RD and probably will return to do so again at some point, I wouldn't shed a single tear about borgs losing their bomb vests. Make locking the only option and force RDs/Roboticists to manually reconstruct/unhack the borgs if they turn out to be rogue. I'm hard pressed to think of a legitimate time where a competent RD could not just lock the borgs, screwdriver the console, drag all the borgs to the robotics lab/R&D/his office/the bridge/maint love nest/etc and manually unfuck the borgs. The RD's job towards the AI and borg management should be a little more complex than simply having a console that deletes players from the round for being emagged. Especially one as easy to access as the RD console. It would also make being emagged less of a death sentence for borgs since they wouldn't be at risk for MMI deletion upon being discovered just because a traitor managed to emag them.

[cedarbridge]

There's a lockdown button. There is ALSO an unlock button. The AI can use the unlock button on locked borgs slaved to it.

I question the viability of the lockdown button.

This is true - one time I tried to lockdown a rogue borg and it was up shooting ten seconds later. I then detonated it and felt guilty.

A screwdriver would have solved all of your problems in less than 10 seconds.

Which is by itself stupid - almighty central computer of station can't acces machine because monitor was disconnected.

Being able to interact only with machinery that AI see through camera is stupid also.

Engine and interactivity levels limitations. We can hand-wave that removing the monitor also disables some other essential parts of the console construction that allows the console to function similarly to how disabling the camera may also remove whatever allows the AI to interact with machinery in that particular room.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

I wonder if electrical devices could be kept visible even when no camera's around though.

[TheWiznard]

This doesn't change the problem. If anything, locking over blowing is something desirable. An extra 15 second delay on a console that is already a time sensitive machine is kinda silly.

let me rephrase what I intended. In general I looked at this issue from an AI's state of view. There are very few rounds where I am not a silicon player at some point. I think that having some sort of "unlock cooldown" for silicons is still a viable choice from my point of view, earlier in the thread (I'm too lazy to go back and find it) someone was talking about how no one locks down borgs because the AI can just instantly unlock them because "lol i r ai fgt". If the AI could not constantly unlock cyborgs, locking borgs would be a much more desirable method instead of just outright blowing them.

90% of science doesn't need to know that a borg was locked. Really, apart from cases where revs/traitors steal a RD ID and blow up the borgs or something (where sec will still probably know this has already happened) this will serve no purpose. The RD/captain already knows they locked/blew the borgs.

Again, this was my coming from a "viewing this my input from an AI player". In my mind it would work like if someone locked/unlocked borgs it would just broadcast "borgs locked/unlocked" but if an AI was using the console it would be like " [AI] unlocked/locked borgs". Yes, I am aware that the RD/captain would have a pretty good idea of what's going on but in my mind I think of it as a way for people to get that "hey this AI is constantly unlocking the borgs, maybe I should do something about the camera or the screen"

If it were "manual" it wouldn't be on a remote console. Also, how does this differ from the current lock button other than being directly better? You'd produce a false choice because there would be no reason to choose the would lock button over this.

You're right that if there was a manual option over electronic locking everyone would use manual locking. I once again came at this topic from an AI standpoint in that, if you don't want an AI constantly fucking over what you're doing just add a sort of manual lock override to it, or do as you said below.

I can't really tell if its you or me that doesn't understand what's going on in this thread. The idea is that RD/Captains would rather just blow borgs than lock them down and deal with them. An excuse given was that the AI could just unlock them if they're attentive or whatever. This has counters already (disable the console after locking the borgs to prevent the AI from fucking with it, the AI can't use a disabled machine any more than a human can.) Its not an issue of AIs being retards and unlocking locked shitler borgs breaking laws so they can keep breaking their laws. Its an issue with paranoid command roles not knowing how to handle rogue borgs outside of literally "BORGS ROGUE BLOW THE BORGS."

In a high percentage of the rounds I've been an AI/borg for as long as I can remember everyone resorts to blowing the borgs first, asking questions never. I honestly don't know if changing how the RD console works would do much of anything with the majority of people who play and just blow the borgs regardless. Maybe in the last 6 months or so some people have started to attempt deconning the borgs instead of blowing them; but the number of people who do this are few and far between. A lot of AI's do unlock their borgs when they shouldn't and I agree with you on that. An AI doesn't see a borg on the RD console unless it is slaved to the AI, and if your borg is being a shit and you keep hindering human efforts to figure out what is wrong something needs to happen. The only time I ever touch the console is if I'm a tator/malf anyway, with the odd chance where there is some autistic borg player who is fucking around/not listening to your orders.

Personally, as somebody who used to play a lot of RD and probably will return to do so again at some point, I wouldn't shed a single tear about borgs losing their bomb vests. Make locking the only option and force RDs/Roboticists to manually reconstruct/unhack the borgs if they turn out to be rogue. I'm hard pressed to think of a legitimate time where a competent RD could not just lock the borgs, screwdriver the console, drag all the borgs to the robotics lab/R&D/his office/the bridge/maint love nest/etc and manually unfuck the borgs. The RD's job towards the AI and borg management should be a little more complex than simply having a console that deletes players from the round for being emagged. Especially one as easy to access as the RD console. It would also make being emagged less of a death sentence for borgs since they wouldn't be at risk for MMI deletion upon being discovered just because a traitor managed to emag them.

I agree with you that bomber borgs should be restricted from general actions. I think that malf/tator AI should still be able to explode borgs from the console though.