Antag Rolling

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

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actioninja
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Antag Rolling

Postby actioninja » Tue May 21, 2019 7:15 am #494806

So this PR has brought to light that the only precedent ever for antag rolling is a 4 year old thread where Kor said it should be bannable for repeated roundstart suicide

So let's just get what "antag rolling" is out of the way first, let's just agree that antag rolling is doing anything to make sure the only way you're playing a round is if you're an antag. Roundstart suicide, job pref manipulation, things of this
nature. The classic "unga bunga me not get antag me not play game." If you don't agree to this definition, go away, you're just going to derail things and turn this into an argument about semantics when basically everyone can agree what it is whether or not they think it should be allowed.

So I was under the impression that antag rolling of any kind was bannable as I had been told that by a few admins, but upon both looking for the rule, found there wasn't one except for important roles, and the only precedent was the 4 year old Kor ruling. And then to add to the confusion, other people have been told that antag rolling is not bannable or against the rules in any way by other admins.

Both a more up to date ruling on this and maybe even a clarification in the rules would be a good thing.



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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby actioninja » Tue May 21, 2019 7:27 am #494808

Double posting without an edit on purpose, this is where my opinion comes in.
I think It's pretty obvious from Kor's phrasing that he was referring to any kind of antag rolling behavior. I don't see how you can interpret "yes, it should probably be bannable if you're not going to take your turn being an NPC punching bag but still expect to play the fun part." any other way.
And I definitely think antag rolling should be punishable. For very similar reasons to what Kor outlined but I'm going to add another point to it now that we have 4 years of hindsight to talk shit about. Even if I still have issues with current station gameplay and still think it's weak, with how many strides have been made in terms of deshittifying station gameplay I think it becomes obvious that it's not just a matter of "station gameplay isn't good enough." It's about that there's a small subset of players that absolutely refuses to play the game unless they get their license to grief. Station gameplay could be incredible but they don't care because they just want to be able to do what they want without consequence. It's not about playing a unique role in a way that contributes to the experience of the game, it's literally just "give me my ticket to be a bastard or I'm not playing." If you only ever want to be the chaos causer without ever having to deal with being on the receiving end, you're a shit player who shouldn't be here.
You can bitch and moan about "/tg/ is high chaos!" or "/tg/ is low RP!" as much as you want, but enabling people that specifically set out to play the roles which are exempt from normal rules is gross and against the entire spirit of the game.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue May 21, 2019 7:38 am #494811

There is also a level of metagame that results from this as well. If you suicide literally every round you're not antag, the rounds you're not will be noted by other people. You literally detract from the experience of the whole server by involving out of round knowledge others literally cannot ignore to satisfy your own enjoyment.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby SaveVatznick » Tue May 21, 2019 8:40 am #494819

I thought the policy around antag rolling is just that people who roundstart suicide or braindead are technically eligible for antagbans. The issue ends up being enforcement, where players or admins either don't notice or can't be assed to report roundstart suicides as they happen. It's that, and determining intent behind someone roundstart suiciding is kinda hard. Suppose it was a WarOps announcement and they didn't want to play...?

Any antagrolling policy enforcement would require admins that are on frequently and paying specific attention to the rounds on the server as well as the players as individuals. I doubt admins are actually actively observing the round as it proceeds unless they're running some meme event,in which case they aren't watching for rollers anyways. What do you want to do, note someone every time they suicide before 5 minutes before antag banning them for rolling?

Don't get me wrong, people who play the game to grief and kill people (more than we like to admit) should be held accountable, but is enforcement really credible here when so many factors (Noticing them,reporting them, determining they're antag rolling) go into this? Not to mention on a server which prides itself on "player freedom" and with a community that fetishizes antags and idolizes players who can bone an entire station, can you imagine the shitstorm a ban appeal from a well-liked antag roller would bring?
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue May 21, 2019 9:33 am #494821

if you only antag roll you ll get found out in weeks without any extra rule enforcements, there is no need to put on watchlist people who like to join into hop line suicides cause its funny

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Malkraz » Tue May 21, 2019 10:08 am #494823

GENE BALL IS MOVING
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Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby leibniz » Tue May 21, 2019 10:35 am #494826

Weren't the "return to lobby if not antag" type of settings added to avoid having to play with antagrollers in the round?
I seem to recall MSO saying something like that but it was ages ago.
I dont use "return to lobby" settings myself so I dont really care but trying to police players this much is shitty
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Arianya » Tue May 21, 2019 11:44 am #494828

The setting is "return to lobby" if you don't get one of your preferred jobs, it's not intended as a "return to lobby if not antagonist"
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby imsxz » Tue May 21, 2019 12:33 pm #494833

Yes enforcing this is aids to enforce against especially when there’s almost zero way to tell if someone’s just suiciding because they gotta leave or they don’t wanna play a particular round VS suiciding specificially because you don’t wanna play as nonantag and want to roll for antsg ghost roles (looking at 90% of war ops suiciders)
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Mickyan » Tue May 21, 2019 1:30 pm #494835

Whenever you wonder whether or not something should be against the rules imagine the unlikely situation where every single person on the server is doing it at the same time and ask yourself: is the game still enjoyable?

You're going to come up with a whole bunch of behaviors that are better left in the realm of "expect a stern talking to if you do it often enough to get noticed"
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Tue May 21, 2019 2:42 pm #494838

imsxz wrote:Yes enforcing this is aids to enforce against especially when there’s almost zero way to tell if someone’s just suiciding because they gotta leave or they don’t wanna play a particular round VS suiciding specificially because you don’t wanna play as nonantag and want to roll for antsg ghost roles (looking at 90% of war ops suiciders)

Enforcement is somewhat difficult but no more so than metacommunication and similar such bans. (Which obviously have their own pitfalls to enforcement, especially for newer admins.) Past bans for antag rolling follow a fairly obvious pattern of activity and I can't think of the case where somebody was spot-banned for their first roundstart non-antag suicide. When it becomes a problem is when even non-admins are noticing "hey, this guy is doing it /every round/ I wonder if there's something to this." You also tend to see those same people do things like spawn in, fail to roll antag and then immediately (or greytide around a bit first) and then server hop to whichever server just started its own new round to try to roll there.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Eskjjlj » Tue May 21, 2019 4:30 pm #494851

It's easy to enforce that.
When you spot a player commit suicide when not antag you make a secret note "Suicided as non-antag. Keep an eye on him in the future for antag rolling." And then when they suicide a second time you antag ban them!
Sounds fair, right?

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby imsxz » Tue May 21, 2019 5:22 pm #494855

cedarbridge wrote:snip


i can do a very simple test to incriminate suspected metacommers, i cant bait someone into "proving" that they suicide whenever they dont get antag with the goal of rolling for ghost antags. As a policy situation this sounds like the same sort of nightmare as other rule 0 sort of bans that rely on purely admin/player testimony and not something you can easily prove.

It's much less cancer for everyone involved if there's a code solution which disqualifies people on the logout report from midround antags or something. Of course it's easy to wave everything away with "code solution" but there is a code solution up at the moment to make it slightly less viable of a playstyle, which is a good step in this direction.

Alternatively just make the game more fun for nonatags 4head
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Denton » Tue May 21, 2019 6:02 pm #494866

Eskjjlj wrote:It's easy to enforce that.
When you spot a player commit suicide when not antag you make a secret note "Suicided as non-antag. Keep an eye on him in the future for antag rolling." And then when they suicide a second time you antag ban them!
Sounds fair, right?

No need for that when we'll just enforce a code solution instead
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Tue May 21, 2019 7:33 pm #494890

imsxz wrote:Alternatively just make the game more fun for nonatags 4head

I mean, I've been pushing for non-antag content focus for a while, but we keep getting guns and antags because that's apparently what people like to make.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Tue May 21, 2019 7:35 pm #494892

cedarbridge wrote:
imsxz wrote:Alternatively just make the game more fun for nonatags 4head

I mean, I've been pushing for non-antag content focus for a while, but we keep getting guns and antags because that's apparently what people like to make.


Eskjjlj wrote:It's easy to enforce that.
When you spot a player commit suicide when not antag you make a secret note "Suicided as non-antag. Keep an eye on him in the future for antag rolling." And then when they suicide a second time you antag ban them!
Sounds fair, right?

Do you have any idea how many notes I'd be making every round to pull that?

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Nabski » Tue May 21, 2019 7:36 pm #494894

I tried to stop people from suicide after a war ops announcement and taking antag rolls. My response to that was less than positive. I think I did a few rounds of warnings and two of bans.

I think there was conversation about a code solution at the time, but nothing came of it.

I'm slightly iffy about the second part, but the "if you have no jobs selected you aren't playing this round" seems like an obvious great answer.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Tue May 21, 2019 7:54 pm #494902

Nabski wrote:I'm slightly iffy about the second part, but the "if you have no jobs selected you aren't playing this round" seems like an obvious great answer.

Assistant mains are going to throw a fit.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 pm #494919

Face it Antag Rollers are just tiders with enough sense to commit suicide instead of making the rest of the playerbases life a pain in the ass.

As I've said before and I've said again. Grief/greytiding is literally just the effect of boredom on a /tg/ player.

Make more jobs as interesting as xenobio, mining, viro, botany, chef, and bartender and you'll have less greytiding.

Engineering was one of these but it got nerfed to hell so now its boring tier again.

Also, re-enable the gateway. When the griefers are dead on another map, tiding goes down and admin's having time to breathe goes up!

If headmins are reading this. Test it out, re-enable the gateway on high-pop bagil. See how it interacts with the greytide and the admins who are dealing with them before and after you did it.

I guarantee the results will show you that grief and tiding has decreased because now assistants have something interesting to do.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 21, 2019 9:36 pm #494921

cedarbridge wrote:
Nabski wrote:I'm slightly iffy about the second part, but the "if you have no jobs selected you aren't playing this round" seems like an obvious great answer.

Assistant mains are going to throw a fit.

Assistant is a YES or NO option that disables all other jobs if toggled, unless you are using the "play assistant if prefs taken" option, which makes the issue equally moot.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Cobby » Tue May 21, 2019 11:04 pm #494937

Antag rolling will get you banned if I catch you doing it.

Next PR should be where if your name is on the printout to admins about being dead/suicide/ghosted roundstart enough it should auto-note you.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:26 pm #494944

Cobby wrote:Antag rolling will get you banned if I catch you doing it.

Next PR should be where if your name is on the printout to admins about being dead/suicide/ghosted roundstart enough it should auto-note you.


Without antag rolling alleviating some of the boredom. You'd have to deal with more

E S C A L A T I O N
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 21, 2019 11:27 pm #494945

Edit: actually just keep a timer of how long players spend in joined rounds as alive, logged in, and not afk. track it over their latest 30 non-observing rounds. Any player with a timer of less than 15 minutes averagw is probably grounds to note or investigate.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm #494946

Personally, I'd consider something like setting it to kick you back to the lobby if you don't get a job and then setting all your jobs to never a bug exploit.

Antag rolling shouldn't be allowed because it's pretty much a rule one thing. Everyone has to take their turns playing nonantagonist (aka the antagonist punching bag, if that's how you want to look at it) if they want to play the antagonist. Otherwise, we'd have a server full of AFK/dead people while the antags just sort of sit there awkwardly. This doesn't really happen because antag rolling is against the rules and I'd like to think those who do/want to do it are in the minority anyway.

That's partly a code issue and partly an issue of there are people who have played the game so long that they've exhausted all of the nonantag content and only get fun out of playing as antags. Obviously, we can't enforce this, but if you find yourself wanting to roll for antag, then I'd recommend taking a solid two to three month break or longer so there's some fresh content to enjoy.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 am #494950

BeeSting12 wrote:That's partly a code issue and partly an issue of there are people who have played the game so long that they've exhausted all of the nonantag content and only get fun out of playing as antags. Obviously, we can't enforce this, but if you find yourself wanting to roll for antag, then I'd recommend taking a solid two to three month break or longer so there's some fresh content to enjoy.


Needed to be posted twice.

Listen to BeeSting12.

Now listen to me.

Turn on the gateway to lessen the antag-rolling/greytide/grief/boredom that comes with jobs that aren't bursting with content like Xenobio, Virology, All of service except for the Janitor and Mining.

The trick here is to put content around a shitload of RNG that's nigh unlimited with a few things blacklisted for being too overpowered. While also having the job be bursting with content.

See Strange Seeds, Chef's service pack, the way virology works, and Mining Ruins + Megafauna + Tendrils.

It's also why TC trading for santa will always be fun and a new experience. Because it'll literally give you everything in the game. From paper to a wand of animation, to a metal rod, to the Ninja's E-Katana.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 22, 2019 12:43 am #494954

Last thing we need is having players like lexia black with nuke ops and wizard gear from snowdin or wild west every other round. Gateway was turned off for a good reason.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Karp » Wed May 22, 2019 2:11 am #494970

NecromancerAnne wrote:There is also a level of metagame that results from this as well. If you suicide literally every round you're not antag, the rounds you're not will be noted by other people. You literally detract from the experience of the whole server by involving out of round knowledge others literally cannot ignore to satisfy your own enjoyment.


i think thats the point, you get antag banned by making a noticable awful impression on everyone on the server
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:40 am #494973

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Last thing we need is having players like lexia black with nuke ops and wizard gear from snowdin or wild west every other round. Gateway was turned off for a good reason.


How it is currently, is the admin's load in their own map.

Just load in maps with less OP loot.

Like that wish-granter one. You kill all the mobs to become a shadow person with the hijack objective.

Pretty brutal, especially because shadow-people suck so much ass.

Ultimately, I think we should decide. Do you want greytiders, griefers, and constant abuse of escalation? Or do you want in-game players having their hands on powerful and meaty loot?

This loot can be time-gated like we timegate our powerful loot obtainable via jobs. Through RnG.

If that guy comes back with force-wall and time stop. If he comes back 1 hour in. We did a good job because we can get stuff better than that on the station anyways.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 22, 2019 3:57 am #494978

Ultimately, I think we should decide. Do you want greytiders, griefers, and constant abuse of escalation? Or do you want in-game players having their hands on powerful and meaty loot?
Take the third option: Just ban the bad actors.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:11 am #494980

Everyone's a bad actor for somebody.

It's just facts. This method will only lead to more issues.

You remove the crutch instead of fixing the leg. Well now the issue is even more abhorrent, but no one is bothering to fix it still.

What I mean by this is, we can take precedent from that time assistants got removed. All the tiders just became engineers and the previous engineer mains got booted out of a role. The engine was never set-up, and suddenly the captain's office was being RCD'd into.

One could argue for more restrictions and rules. But very fast does that spiral into a higher standard for RP. Something /tg/ retches and rattles to its core.

If you really want less antag-rolling. Add more content for the burnt out folk sick of rolling chemist 3 times on repeat. Maybe that explains why they decided to drink 100 units of wielder fuel when there was no antag to break up that monotonous set-up.

This to me, is just like trying to remove assistant once more instead of addressing the problem with greytiding.

All the antag-rollers are just going to use more drastic measures that will lead to a decrease in the quality of life of this game for everyone.

The most obvious to me would be, more greytiding and grief.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Wed May 22, 2019 5:29 am #494990

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:Last thing we need is having players like lexia black with nuke ops and wizard gear from snowdin or wild west every other round. Gateway was turned off for a good reason.


How it is currently, is the admin's load in their own map.

Just load in maps with less OP loot.

Like that wish-granter one. You kill all the mobs to become a shadow person with the hijack objective.

Pretty brutal, especially because shadow-people suck so much ass.

Ultimately, I think we should decide. Do you want greytiders, griefers, and constant abuse of escalation? Or do you want in-game players having their hands on powerful and meaty loot?

This loot can be time-gated like we timegate our powerful loot obtainable via jobs. Through RnG.

If that guy comes back with force-wall and time stop. If he comes back 1 hour in. We did a good job because we can get stuff better than that on the station anyways.


There are two flavors of gateway map. The kind with loot that players want to farm and will game until they've "solved" it and the kind without that everyone ignores.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby teepeepee » Wed May 22, 2019 7:07 am #495000

If you're burnt out perhaps you should stop playing for a bit, even if that break has to be forced upon you with a ban
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Arianya » Wed May 22, 2019 8:22 am #495005

Ultimately SS13 is like a game of Mafia. The game doesn't work if there's only Mafia - which is what you aim for when you antag-roll, you need villagers and cops and etc. for the game to function at all.

Re-enabling the gateway is at best a crutch and at worst just aggravating a different problem: Even if antagrollers would join the game to play the gateway, they're still not contributing to the round at large - until they potentially come back with gear we specifically restrict in any other avenue of the game, creating a new issue of people itching to use their gateway loot and being sloppy with how they use it.

I can understand being bored with the game. We've all been there, at one time or another, but if you are at the point where you're actively fighting the entire premise of the game then it's time you take a break.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby NoxVS » Wed May 22, 2019 12:42 pm #495019

However the problem is the lack of things for the people who aren’t “mafia”. Jobs are tedious and unrewarding. There’s only so many times you can just do your job. Mining and xenobio don’t really have this problem because the job is rewarding and gives you cool toys to have fun with. This isn’t really true for any other job. Fortunately this drought of fun is alleviated by conflict involving antags. But when the game leans so heavily on antags as a source of fun it leaves you with nothing to do if you don’t find anyone to interact with. If you don’t roll antag you could spend the whole round waiting for something to happen only to learn it was secret extended.

Can you really blame someone for antag rolling when the alternative is sitting around for an hour waiting for something to show up?
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Arianya » Wed May 22, 2019 2:11 pm #495031

That's what people mean by burnout though. If you're not enjoying chemistry for making interesting chems or janitor for pointing at signs as people slip or whatever you would do in other jobs and can only feel the rush if you are:

a) Getting phat lavaland loot
b) Getting magical slime loot
c) Fighting an antag

Then you are a textbook case of not playing the game for the game anymore. Lest you forget, mining and xenobio are not the foundation that SS13 was founded upon. For a long time the game had way less variety of jobs and less interesting jobs on the whole but the format worked because people still enjoyed being a spessman on a space station even if they didn't have a valid license.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby terranaut » Wed May 22, 2019 2:32 pm #495034

Arianya wrote:That's what people mean by burnout though. If you're not enjoying chemistry for making interesting chems or janitor for pointing at signs as people slip or whatever you would do in other jobs and can only feel the rush if you are:

a) Getting phat lavaland loot
b) Getting magical slime loot
c) Fighting an antag

Then you are a textbook case of not playing the game for the game anymore. Lest you forget, mining and xenobio are not the foundation that SS13 was founded upon. For a long time the game had way less variety of jobs and less interesting jobs on the whole but the format worked because people still enjoyed being a spessman on a space station even if they didn't have a valid license.


The missing link is roleplay. Talking to somebody while doing your job and having some sort of character progression, or just an interesting conversation, is what makes the otherwise just button clicking job bearable and even fun.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby NoxVS » Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 pm #495040

terranaut wrote:
Arianya wrote:That's what people mean by burnout though. If you're not enjoying chemistry for making interesting chems or janitor for pointing at signs as people slip or whatever you would do in other jobs and can only feel the rush if you are:

a) Getting phat lavaland loot
b) Getting magical slime loot
c) Fighting an antag

Then you are a textbook case of not playing the game for the game anymore. Lest you forget, mining and xenobio are not the foundation that SS13 was founded upon. For a long time the game had way less variety of jobs and less interesting jobs on the whole but the format worked because people still enjoyed being a spessman on a space station even if they didn't have a valid license.


The missing link is roleplay. Talking to somebody while doing your job and having some sort of character progression, or just an interesting conversation, is what makes the otherwise just button clicking job bearable and even fun.

Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 22, 2019 3:58 pm #495041

NoxVS wrote:
terranaut wrote:
The missing link is roleplay. Talking to somebody while doing your job and having some sort of character progression, or just an interesting conversation, is what makes the otherwise just button clicking job bearable and even fun.

Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.

"We cab only roleplay meaningfully if there's an antag!"
Looks at typical round chatter
Looks at metagangs
Looks at the multitude of servers where roleplay is the primary objective


Maybe you're forgetting you're in a roleplaying game, not a murder simulator, friend?

I wasn't aware the bar only existed for cringey forced small talk.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby terranaut » Wed May 22, 2019 6:05 pm #495066

NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.

Are you telling me you are literally incapable of having an interesting conversation?
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 23, 2019 5:05 am #495132

NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.

You what.

I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu May 23, 2019 6:39 am #495145

cedarbridge wrote:
NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.

You what.

I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.

To his credit, roleplay that comes about due to conflict is leaps and bounds more interesting than roleplay that doesn't.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Jzoid » Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 pm #495164

I think antag rolling is bannable

I got a hefty client ban and a perma (appealed) antag ban for it.



If you want a way you can code it so antag rolling isn't as prevalent, or at least discouraged, introduce a karma-esque system back, such as when you'd get certain amount of points for playing certain jobs, and depending on those points you'd have higher/lower chance of rolling antag.
Instead, this time, just make it so suiciding or brain-deading will make it so you get negative points which lowers your chances. Suicide HOP Line for fun once or twice a day won't ruin your chances too much, but it'll ruin the chances of those purposely suiciding cause "tfw no antag" greatly.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu May 23, 2019 2:20 pm #495170

Good idea in concept

Human Desire ruins it in practice.

If you discourage antag-rolling, without addressing the core issue behind it: Burn-out to the point where being free from the restrictions of the rules and playing ss13 like it's GTA is the only fun you'll have with the game.

The players will just go to more extremes in order to continue doing what they were already doing.

A precedent for this is shown when all the assistant mains who could no longer play assistant because it was removed. Became engineering mains and greytided with that role instead.

Until all jobs are jam-packed with as much content and entertainment as Xenobiology and the Chef. This playstyle will ultimately continue and persevere. In even more horrible and "toeing the line" ways.

For example: The other day I had my round ruined by griefers who decided to harvest swarms of bees in cargo. Killing the miners with a SHITLOAD of toxin damage, and then hiding their bodies.

"Incompetence" is not bannable, so players will abuse the leeway they get with "Incompetence" by acting like "Incompetent" assholes.

What can you do?
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 23, 2019 2:35 pm #495172

PKPenguin321 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
NoxVS wrote:Meaningful roleplay requires conflict, otherwise it’s just two people awkwardly doing bar RP. The only reliable source of conflict is from antags considering the only conflict that can be formed between two non antags is shallow or forced.

You what.

I'm starting to think that the whole "TG is norp" thing is really just that people don't have any fucking idea how to roleplay.

To his credit, roleplay that comes about due to conflict is leaps and bounds more interesting than roleplay that doesn't.

To whom

Shadowflame909 wrote:What can you do?

Ban them, basically. Burnout is a product of having already "solved" the game. That's what's happened when you've already done all of the content job content to a point that you can optimize its routine and thus feel bored doing it. Much of SS13 is discovery, but since we make sure that everything is posted to the wiki or handed out freely (because goon-style sekret code is lame) the time between the release of a new feature and how long it takes a skilled player to reach "solved" is not terribly long. Some players have simply just played long enough to have reached that point with most content. You can request, and I support, adding more non-antag content as much as you like but its a bandaid on a problem that's not being addressed. Player burnout is something that happens naturally and its something that larger projects than SS13 have to deal with. Our design and platform should naturally resolve this because (as discussed elsewhere) the game is presented as a roleplaying platform with some clunky and esoteric content placed over the top of it. If you removed all of the job complexity you'd still have the rudiments of a roleplaying platform. Even without antagonists you'd still have the means of creating, developing and playing out characters. The job content in theory should be a sideshow and a collection of tools that enhance character interactions, not replace them.

What I'm getting at here is that if you're honestly so bored of the game that the only joy you find in it anymore is rolling for that sweet Rule 4 protection then maybe you've stopped playing the game as what its meant to be. I've said it before, it feels really weird that we more or less reward immunity to the rules as a product of getting an RNG roll into round antagonist. No amount of content you can add to the game will overshadow the appeal of Rule 4 to some players and many times that will come as a detriment to the round rather than an enhancement. Conflict can bloom naturally within a round without the need for rules-free antagonists. Conflict in the "make man horizontal" flavor is not required for interesting rounds or interesting player interactions. Especially since the majority of antags are encouraged by valid hunting culture to wordlessly murder everyone they see with little or no contact prior. If you need a silent bad man with a gun to create an interesting roleplaying experience (assuming any roleplaying in a deeper sense than Quake is a "role" "playing" game is taking place) then maybe there's a lack of creativity going on that limits how you view interactions with others.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Xeroxemnas » Thu May 23, 2019 3:08 pm #495173

I dunno how people can ONLY have fun as an antag in this game. There's plenty of cool shit you can do without being one. I mean hell we have VR shit for a reason guys. Not to mention there's shit like station goals, cargo bounties, cool shuttles like the gigashuttle that are actually hard to get and require effort. Not to mention you can always ask for a gateway mission or something. Burnout is not an excuse to be a piece of shit and roundstart suicide every time you don't get your way like a petulant child.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Nilons » Thu May 23, 2019 5:45 pm #495183

If everyone but the antags killed themselves immediately upon roundstart this game would fucking suck

the only reason this is even a question is because most people have the decency to not do it due to understanding that you cant have nearly as much fun as an antag unless someone else is playing a nonantag role

its like playing the lottery but being allowed to refund your ticket when you lose, no one ends up getting paid out even if they win
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu May 23, 2019 7:30 pm #495192

Xeroxemnas wrote:I dunno how people can ONLY have fun as an antag in this game. There's plenty of cool shit you can do without being one. I mean hell we have VR shit for a reason guys. Not to mention there's shit like station goals, cargo bounties, cool shuttles like the gigashuttle that are actually hard to get and require effort. Not to mention you can always ask for a gateway mission or something. Burnout is not an excuse to be a piece of shit and roundstart suicide every time you don't get your way like a petulant child.


Oh no...

VR has been removed.

Station Goals are actually pretty boring and usually rely way too heavily on one department for the entire crew to care about them.

Grief Shuttles do actually make people happy. The Captain, who now gets called valid but murders anyone who tries to murder him with his armed militia (security.)

The last one I do. It's pretty entertaining, but It requires at least an hour of set-up for a great pay-off. It also requires a willing crew and willing admins.

Burn-Out is a fact of SS13. A fact that I will state as many times as necessary. Isn't being dealt with so well currently. If you take a look at all of the tiding and grief, they know how to bend the rules to their finger and can get away with a shitload of things.

The precedent being how angry I got that 80% of the rounds where the xeno-ruin spawned. A ghost role would dig up to it and self-antag. Which was never bwoinkable. Because of how "vague" and "uncertain" it was that they meta-gamed it. A very poor time for all was had.

Now Cargo-Bounties have been starting to get on my nerve. It's like you have to "/tg/ proof" these features now. Those bounties like build your own Tesla or Build your own singulo?

Always get released.

Wanna know why you never see that Xenomorph bounty for good reason? It always gets released. So cargo can never enjoy that money.

I wish banning people was a solution. I even wish rule 7 was used as a solution. But it's not, causing escalation by being a dick isnt punishable. Going too far is, so people just never do that.

The crux of my reason for hissing and hating that PR and arguing so wildly against it. Is not because I love Antag-Rolling. It's because I love what it does to the tide population.

Those bored people instead of tiding, they commit suicide. Or instead of spawning as an assistant/some job they really didn't want to do that shift. They just instantly observe or leave the game.

My hypothesis for why less and less admins are seen on bagil is because like the player-base. Dealing with all of those shitters will get to you, and burn you out. If you deal with them for too many rounds in a row. You'll take some time off. This is at least evident in the player-base shitters and borderline griefers (Not really.) effect.

Antag-Rolling is the minor issue of a bigger problem. In its current state, having that player-base who would otherwise do everything to ruin my round instantly commit suicide or not spawn at all. Is quite enjoyable.

I feel that putting tension on this subject without dealing with the bigger problem of greytiding'/griefing because of burn-out and boredom will only aggravate the problems we already have.

Like lack of admins on Bagil, and me getting my shit stolen right after I bought it. Because some chucklefuck is bored and the clown was already taken.

Thank you Antag-Rollers for having enough sense to suicide instead of disrupting my round like the 20 other players who currently do so.

I do not want this problem to continue, but I would like it to die down instead.

I fear that instead of addressing the problem, will only instill the opposite reaction. Quite ironically.

It'll burn out the quality player-base players, and admin-team. Leading only greytide paradise.

Precedent: 90 players, but 6 of them are on Sybil. While bagil is still at 0 admins.

Griefer Burn-Out is real

Edit: (Holy shit this is so long I don't think I would read it either.)
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby confused rock » Thu May 23, 2019 8:02 pm #495200

I hate to dab about lifeweb, but I must say that the roleplay there has been excellent. perhaps this is due to the rules-though you can kill random people for shitty reasons, you don't want to spout memes ic or even talk too robotically.
however, lifeweb has significant challenge outside antagonists, with quiet day aka extended being very popular. Hunger can kill you and is a very real danger, meaning anyone being a complete douchebag may run into trouble if they piss off the only people paying them and the only people selling food. having low mood is a near death sentence and getting into fights is a good way to hurt your mood. Challenging gameplay outside of antagonists makes cooperation a very good idea for survival, and that unsurprisingly leads to cooperation. and yes, medbay is complex. People can sleep in a bed or chair to fix minor injuries, which is excellent, and they can tear up their clothes if they really need to patch a cut (replacement clothes aren't necessarily cheap) or at minimum grab their wound to hold it shut at the cost of the hand. Infections are a bit dangerous to self-medicate though, crutches are a crutch and splints take a while to fix things, so a doctor is a great idea. On the other hand it gives people less of a reason to start fights because the idiot starting them might actually get seriously hurt.
You could say lifeweb is completely different from ss13, but it has a gamemode that takes place on a space station, where the only real difference is the station is designed for lower populations. Even fixing solar panels there is engaging since there's a great risk of slipping and falling out into space (I remember my first round as engineer when the chief disappeared and I struggled setting up all the solars myself. eventually the chief was recovered by our pilot, having drifted off into space with a tracking necklace on. It was a massive relief to see him back and well.) As well as of dust cracking helmets or other issues. And fixing panels is in fact urgent as without power you won't have water and lifeweb does make needs crucial.

The main three things that wouldn't work here:

Lifeweb's base speed is fairly slow- jogging speed is a bit below our current speed here, but it varies depending on mood and dexterity and you have much reason to walk, such as stamina. Sprinting is also a risky option that's available. I suppose less reason to run around a ton leads to more talking, and I guess that because that certainly seems to be the result.

Lifeweb has job-specific skills and stats. stats aren't necessary for most things and can be trained or boosted with drugs, but it's slow, and skill training is slow or fast depending on the int stat. There's even a skill for reading, which I found interesting a couple times when I was poor and had to have my letters read to me, only for the reader to have to burn the letter or something for reasons I could only guess. Stats are also the main thing mood effects. I know we're very opposed to job specific skills, but if we ever did them then this is the right way.

Lifeweb has no hotkey mode as an intentional choice. Without hotkey mode, communication is much faster. People on /tg/ are sacrificing speed otherwise if they turn off hotkey mode. By removing the CHOICE, everyone in lifeweb is on a level playing field, and a more supporting one of interaction. This couldn't work here, not because it's a bad idea, but because people would be so opposed to the change.

it also has an emote tab and stuff I guess but I should stop ranting about lifeweb I do it too often

TL;DR Lifeweb is more challenging to survive in even without antags and as such gameplay is more engaging and cooperation is more encouraged as starting fights will make it very hard for you to survive. However, some of the things making it that way slow down the pace of the game or otherwise aren't wholly applicable.
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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Kenteko » Thu May 23, 2019 10:01 pm #495210

I think antag rolling should be allowed.

This is coming from someone that has no problem with the PVE side and actively encourages people to space explore/do their autism projects/etc. However, I'm not blind to the fact that most of the non antag side is in a terrible place right now on TG.

Most of the jobs are either boring, mindless, or unrewarding. I'm a huge fan of tedium when I need to do something mindless, but at the same time, I also understand that I tend to enjoy having the CHOICE of zoning out versus doing something.TG as a culture seems to revel in being a traitor, all the goodies you get often have no counter, things that make you have a hard time are constantly nerfed, and often the "NPCs" tend to get mostly ignored or rolled over in favor of a murderboner. Attempting to deescalte often ends with you dead in a ditch somewhere because "you should've shot them." This creates a situation of rocket tag where security often goes completely brutal to deal with an alpha strike, which leads to non antags getting shit on harder, which leads to antags wanting to up the ante and so on.

Really, antag rolling would extend rounds as people who don't get it are happy to end up observing and not tiding. Job slots aren't lost (not that HoP bothers with that) and people who are content to do their jobs are more likely to come around. This will lead to lower pop rounds and a complete admission that the game is about antags first (and being an antag) versus having a rich and nuanced system where you are happy to be the NPC or the antag either way.

Side note, don't assume that everyone who is for antag rolling wants to be an antag. I tend to roll either command staff or join in as an assistant when I don't want to deal with the responsibility and just want to autism fort. Even when I do traitor, I almost never spend my TC (either TC trading for devil/meme or letting it sit in my PDA) because I'd rather have to play on an even playing field then blatantly walk around with broken shit.

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Re: Antag Rolling

Postby Cobby » Thu May 23, 2019 10:07 pm #495211

Get off the game if you find the game boring or code features to make it fun. I'm not going to accommodate people who only enjoy the game by ruining it for others.

As for "but it will just create more escalation problems" I can assess people when having to make escalation calls and start drawing patterns, I can't when they're silently returning to lobby or suiciding across a period of rounds where I may not even be on to see the early-game printout.
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