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Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

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Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby CPTANT » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:54 pm #512479

So what is reasonable escalation against security falsely arresting you?

It happens from time to time that an officer tries to arrest you for false reasons. Ranging from harmless crimes to thinking you are an antag. It brings you in a really shitty situation since officers almost always stun before they decide to execute you, the latest moment you have is before they baton/disabler you.

For example a couple days ago an officer falsely called me a cultist and tried to baton me. What is reasonable self defence? When does it become acceptable to kill an officer trying to take you down?



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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:49 pm #512483

The official answer is sit down and take it, and ahelp if it goes too far. If they're good then you'll be released fast. If the logs show you typing in caps, calling them slurs and generally being an asshole. It'd be an IC issue that you escalated.

All in All do the peaceful passive aggressive protest and things should work out.

You'll lose both rulewise and ingame wise for trying to escalate at all against security.

The odds aren't in your favor.

Shitsec exists. But most of it is paranoia and overreactions to items antags have that is obtainable by non-antags (Fireball, Brass, an e-sword, nukie hardsuit)
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby teepeepee » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:15 pm #512488

if the officer did it with no proof(at least testimony from someone), it should be treated as rdm
if the officer did it acting under information he did not/could not know was false, we have rule 10
if you want to go further, you can use the "higher standard" buzzword used in security policy to add a requirement for them to confirm their information if possible and reasonable
if you retaliate though, you should be careful because they are probably just doing their job, and you're not allowed to kill them for it

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:04 pm #512492

CPTANT wrote:So what is reasonable escalation against security falsely arresting you? For example a couple days ago an officer falsely called me a cultist and tried to baton me. What is reasonable self defense? When does it become acceptable to kill an officer trying to take you down?

I'd suggest non-lethal resistance unless you are absolutely sure a security officer is abusing their position, even then other officers aren't valid to you as they are just doing their job. Security protections work on the basis that the officer making the arrest is doing his duty to arrest people who are suspected of committing crimes. Often times you won't know that a officer has reasonable suspicion from another source so killing them for making a legitimate police action isn't cool.

Officers can and do get notes/warnings/bans for abusing their position. If a officer stuns and kills you for no reason he's just as likely to get banned for RDM as anyone else. It is possible to try and kill a abusive officer, but often it's better to ahelp because In Character security will assume their fellow officers were in the right without all the facts and you'll end up against the entire security team if it's not clear.

It isn't against the rules to resist arrest, it's just against the rules to, as non-antagonist, kill officers who are just doing their job.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:28 pm #512517

stun n cuff em then get a wallet, steal an id from morgue and never care about the sec officer for the rest of the round

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Arathian » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:39 pm #512523

I actually made a headmin debate thread about this because it really does irk me. I gave the following scenario:

shitsec goes around being shitsec. Ie arresting people for literally no reason, stunbatoning randoms "for the lulz" or hacking the door in your department and breaking stuff (or my favourite thing, hacking doors into sci then proceeding to waste all the research points for some fucking bullshit).

Department proceeds to treat the shitsec as any other person who would do that, ie stun him and throw him out or (if shitsec escalates) beat him up a bit and throw him out.

Said shitsec screams in security channel. Suddenly your department is swarming with sec, they stunbaton and arrest half your department. Possibly stripping you naked in the middle of the hallway too for good measure.

In the above scenario, you will be banned if you do anything about the sec swarming into your workplace because the arrest is "warranted". I was told that the above mentioned shitsec should (theoretically) be banned for being like that but I have literally never seen that enforced.

In my opinion, if sec has special OOC protections, sec should have special OOC obligations to be lawful good and is not allowed to break any law without immediate and good justification.

If a sec hacks a door? Immediate jobban. Sec enters a department and messes with it? (researches stuff in RnD without asking, re-arranging the pipes in atmos etc etc) Immediate jobban etc

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:18 pm #512538

Arathian wrote:In the above scenario, you will be banned if you do anything about the sec swarming into your workplace because the arrest is "warranted".

If by 'do anything' you mean if you kill all of them then yes it's certainly possible it might end up that way. It largely depends on how the situation plays out and how good faith your efforts were to resolve the situation.

Meanwhile I think it barely repeating but security doesn't just gain OOC protections with no cost; security face more expectations and restrictions then regular crew do. You can still ahelp officers for abusing their position and other rule 1 problems. People already dislike the role as it as you spend just as much time dealing with petty squabbles as you do hunting bad guys and admins will message you from time to time to ask about conflicts you had (ask any security main). It's not uncommon in low pop shifts for security, just as well any other role, to do something outside their job like setup the engine. Now if they are coming in and messing up with your setup then I do think a IC solution like the Head of Department kicking them out or asking the HoS to get them in line is appropriate and sure, they won't always comply but at the very least I'd appreciate the effort to resolve the situation properly before revving up that mutiny.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:23 pm #512540

I've gotten into arguments with sticky over it before.

Even if you say, kill an antag that sec didn't know was an antag. Or you have beef with the captain and the captain orders security to shoot you on sight. You should still try to avoid killing them, and try taking out the head poncho.

Basically, you gotta play dishonored on the good route. Otherwise you'll cop a ban.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby CPTANT » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:51 pm #512543

teepeepee wrote:if the officer did it acting under information he did not/could not know was false, we have rule 10


Why would rule 10 not apply to security?

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:07 am #512550

Gigapuddi420 wrote:You can still ahelp officers for abusing their position and other rule 1 problems.
I mean, you can ahelp it, but for what it's worth this historically hasn't gone well for me at all, even in cases of sec officers BLATANTLY griefing or knowingly falsifying information.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:People already dislike the role as it as you spend just as much time dealing with petty squabbles as you do hunting bad guys and admins will message you from time to time to ask about conflicts you had (ask any security main).
In 70+ hours of playing sec -which isn't anything worth bragging about, but I DO know the job- I've actually never really been bwoinked about anything I did myself? Maybe once or twice.
I understand arrests and even lethal attacks are sometimes necessary under murky circumstances, but I am of the belief that playing sec and not being a raging ass is fairly easy.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:It's not uncommon in low pop shifts for security, just as well any other role, to do something outside their job like setup the engine. Now if they are coming in and messing up with your setup then I do think a IC solution like the Head of Department kicking them out or asking the HoS to get them in line is appropriate and sure, they won't always comply but at the very least I'd appreciate the effort to resolve the situation properly before revving up that mutiny.
It's a nice thought on paper but in practice deferring up the chain of command to complain about shitsec will go absolutely nowhere 90% of the time. I'm thrilled when I even get sec to help me out at all; I've completely given up hope on them ever helping me out against another sec officer being a butthole.
Dedicated Internal Affairs jobs when.

I do agree that mutinies aren't the nicest solution to stuff like this, and I actually don't have a problem with sec's OOC protections, but I 100% agree with Arathian; if sec has OOC protections for "just doing their job" and not getting killed or harmed in the course of that, why don't non-sec have more OOC protections from sec deliberately being assholes or just plain being terrible at the job? I've straight up had admins tell me that sec random stunning me, grossly over escalating situations, breaking, losing, and stealing my shit, perma'ing me for dumb reasons, and on and on, are strictly IC issues. :popcorn:

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby teepeepee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:12 am #512569

CPTANT wrote:
teepeepee wrote:if the officer did it acting under information he did not/could not know was false, we have rule 10


Why would rule 10 not apply to security?

how did they lose when they've caught who they think is an antagonist/lawbreaker?
you described a situation where you have to accept your loss or risk copping a ban for killing sec for doing their job

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Krusvik » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:12 am #512570

For security tickets, I spend a comprehensive amount of time investigating logs for time stamps and intent, all the way back to the inciting incident.

For this reason, whenever I do have the unfortunate privilege of being involved, I come down hard on security. This had lead to complaints against me and multiple combative bans, but it was said before and it was said here too:

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Cobby » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:17 am #512623

You can escalate in reaction to how they respond.

There's no way to "win" in this situation unless you somehow manage to prove to them you're not the real bad guy, and that might take stunning/cuffing them. If you cull the station out of legitimate self defense then so be it.

It's not fair to them that they're just doing their job, and it's not fair to you that the antag decided he's going to cosplay as you and ruin the rest of your round, so I think you're basically on even playing fields.

You didn't do the crime so "valid arrest" doesn't apply so long as that's the only reason you're being chased.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby ATHATH » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:01 pm #512713

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:stun n cuff em then get a wallet, steal an id from morgue and never care about the sec officer for the rest of the round

This right here. If you try this, though, don't go whining to an admin if you fail and get executed.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby CPTANT » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:05 pm #512725

ATHATH wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:stun n cuff em then get a wallet, steal an id from morgue and never care about the sec officer for the rest of the round

This right here. If you try this, though, don't go whining to an admin if you fail and get executed.


Yeah but the weird thing is that the other way around its fine for them to go whine if you kill them.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby teepeepee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:33 pm #512729

don't worry, most of us sec players don't ahelp cause ahelping is gay and we hate when we get bwoinked ourselves
your only risk is probably nosey admins

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:38 am #512823

teepeepee wrote:don't worry, most of us sec players don't ahelp cause ahelping is gay and we hate when we get bwoinked ourselves
your only risk is probably nosey admins


And all the bad sec players are too afraid of being noticed and won't ahelp for that reason. That being said, it's much more punishing to stun, handcuff, strip, and send them on a disposals run or weld them into a locker and give it back to sec. Killing someone is the least fun thing you can do to get them mad.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:29 am #512889

There should be none, other than running away. If you are getting executed for actually doing nothing, then the best solution is to let it happen and ahelp. If its not the case and you actually did something, then man up and deal with it.

As per Space Law:

302 - Assault of an Officer - To use physical force against a Department Head or member of Security without the apparent intent to kill them. Criminals who attempt to disarm or grab officers while fleeing are guilty of this, even if bare handed. Officers should refrain from using lethal means to subdue the criminal if possible.

To be clear so nobody would try to twist it - a push is a 5 minute sentence and doesn't let the sec execute you, however, if the situation went a bit deeper such as Push, Take Baton, Hit Sec, then they would put themselves at risk of being legitimately executed.

A personal anecdote: See viro buying traitor gear in his lab, drops desword, I head to the HoP's office for access, virologist and other people are already there for some reason, people shoving each other in the HoP line, I baton the viro and tell people to move, take him to perma and he says the darnest thing: "I am really mad that I got arrested for being shoved into you." and then I tell him why he actually was caught for, take his gamer gear and perma him. At the end of the day the guy was a cool dude and he had no clue why he was initially being arrested for. For some reason people seem to expect the security to be 600 CPM professional typists. We baton and cuff first, then talk, because we like to play the game not observe it.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby CPTANT » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:48 pm #512892

Istoprocent1 wrote:There should be none, other than running away. If you are getting executed for actually doing nothing, then the best solution is to let it happen and ahelp. If its not the case and you actually did something, then man up and deal with it.




There are plenty of situations in which the information disparity leads to conflict without one party being "at fault". If a ling impersonates me I am not going to let security execute me under the guise of "lol just doing their job".


So why can't security man up and deal with it for trying to antagonize someone under false pretences?

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby teepeepee » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:53 pm #512893

why can't you man up and accept you've been framed and sometimes you lose?
try to negotiate to demonstrate you're innocent
for example: "bro I'm not a ling please believe me, just kill me and see if I revive, if I don't you know I'm not a ling, revive me after though"

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:55 pm #512894

CPTANT wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:There should be none, other than running away. If you are getting executed for actually doing nothing, then the best solution is to let it happen and ahelp. If its not the case and you actually did something, then man up and deal with it.




There are plenty of situations in which the information disparity leads to conflict without one party being "at fault". If a ling impersonates me I am not going to let security execute me under the guise of "lol just doing their job".


So why can't security man up and deal with it for trying to antagonize someone under false pretences?


This is a fair, but really specific situation. The real problem is that to my knowledge there is no clear cut way to test, if somebody is a ling or not and thus, would fall under "Code Changes" to include that option. Otherwise you could just head to the morgue, get an ID and wear a gasmask for the rest of the shift. :roll:

As teepeepee already said:

10. Losing is part of the game. Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

A personal anecdote: Be an assistant as I had things to do outside of the game, play a game of russian roulette with the bartender, shoot myself in the head, guy takes me to the medbay, medics spend 15+ minutes bringing my sorry ass back to life even though I was not particularly invested in that round, thank them, later down the line sec catches one of those medics in the dorms maint, she has an armblade, claims that it was an armblade sting. I follow them to brig, vouch for the medic, sec guy lets the medic go. Turned out medic was telling the truth.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby CPTANT » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:56 pm #512899

Istoprocent1 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote:There should be none, other than running away. If you are getting executed for actually doing nothing, then the best solution is to let it happen and ahelp. If its not the case and you actually did something, then man up and deal with it.




There are plenty of situations in which the information disparity leads to conflict without one party being "at fault". If a ling impersonates me I am not going to let security execute me under the guise of "lol just doing their job".


So why can't security man up and deal with it for trying to antagonize someone under false pretences?


This is a fair, but really specific situation. The real problem is that to my knowledge there is no clear cut way to test, if somebody is a ling or not and thus, would fall under "Code Changes" to include that option. Otherwise you could just head to the morgue, get an ID and wear a gasmask for the rest of the shift. :roll:

As teepeepee already said:

10. Losing is part of the game. Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

A personal anecdote: Be an assistant as I had things to do outside of the game, play a game of russian roulette with the bartender, shoot myself in the head, guy takes me to the medbay, medics spend 15+ minutes bringing my sorry ass back to life even though I was not particularly invested in that round, thank them, later down the line sec catches one of those medics in the dorms maint, she has an armblade, claims that it was an armblade sting. I follow them to brig, vouch for the medic, sec guy lets the medic go. Turned out medic was telling the truth.


Yes we are going in circles. Rule 10 applies to security as well as the crew. It's not wrong for there to be consequences to falsely trying to hunt someone down. You try to fuck someone up, he fucks you up. Tadaaa, the circle of life.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 pm #512920

CPTANT wrote:Yes we are going in circles. Rule 10 applies to security as well as the crew. It's not wrong for there to be consequences to falsely trying to hunt someone down. You try to fuck someone up, he fucks you up. Tadaaa, the circle of life.


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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby TheMythicGhost » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:03 pm #513062

I'm not even sure why this is being policy discussed. As mentioned already, security operates off of observation and information drip-feeding, and sometimes they get false information or make the wrong observation. The ones that are purposely being shit are very very obvious, and admins generally bwoink them. However, from my experience with all kinds of security, if you just want to escalate against them, you can do so non-lethally. I can't count the amount of times on my hands that I stole the gear off an officer and disposaled them. Just know, this doesn't mean you should strip them entirely down, cuff them in maint somewhere, and forget about them for god knows how long.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:19 pm #513078

TheMythicGhost wrote:Just know, this doesn't mean you should strip them entirely down, cuff them in maint somewhere, and forget about them for god knows how long.

This is what we in the business call the "scared straight method."
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby halitosisman » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:31 pm #513094

Here's a story.

I was playing xenobio one round, and got light pink slime extracts. I then proceeded to march in front of brig and announce in all caps that I was willing to distribute them freely to sec officers for several minutes. Security completely ignored me. Apparently the fastest way to give sec stuff is hand it to the greytide instead, because when I did that security came bounding for the extracts in seconds. After getting brigged and released, I spent the rest of the round as a law abiding scientist in xeno.

But wait, there's more.

For some reason that I still don't know to this day, the detective decided to walk into xeno and open fire on me without a word (IIRC it was nonlethal shots). As my only weapon was a burning orange extract, I lit the area around me on fire to scare him away. He continued his assault heedless of the skin leaving his body, and burnt to a crisp.

Having dealt with that minor distraction, I asked over comms why I was wanted, and got no answer, so I continued my research. Sec, however, was determined to drag the xenobio out of his lab. More poor souls were sent to the researcher's lair, and not one of them escaped unscathed. Xenobio was becoming an increasingly difficult work environment, so I decided to stock up on an hour or two's worth of Xeno goodies and take a vacation around the station. More security attempted to apprehend me, and more security ended up in medbay. I tried bringing a dead body I found in space to cloning, thinking the common folk would see my good intentions. A lynch mob formed in medbay instead and tried to attack me. I released another incendiary cloud a safe distance from cloning to cover my retreat.

As I eventually found out, the one thing my xenobio arsenal was defenseless against was shocked grills, and by sheer coincidence engineering had decided that round to pour enough power into the system to instacrit. I went down on a shocked grill and got teleported to dorms. The lynch mob wailing on me there was unaware of my dead man's switch, and I ended the round as a hole in the station.

So should I have accepted my initial wrongful arrest, by a det and not a proper security officer I might add, or enjoyed the best round I've had to date?

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Arianya » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:46 pm #513098

I'm impressed that you posted a story that you think is a deathblow against this rule but in fact is the exact reason we have this rule.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Cobby » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:37 am #513162

the det was fair game but the rest were technically not able to be killed.

Also mfw you were just doing your job and had your round ruin which is PERFECTLY ok, but sec just doing their job and their round being ruined is not ok???
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Grazyn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:22 am #513442

CPTANT wrote:So what is reasonable escalation against security falsely arresting you?

It happens from time to time that an officer tries to arrest you for false reasons. Ranging from harmless crimes to thinking you are an antag. It brings you in a really shitty situation since officers almost always stun before they decide to execute you, the latest moment you have is before they baton/disabler you.

For example a couple days ago an officer falsely called me a cultist and tried to baton me. What is reasonable self defence? When does it become acceptable to kill an officer trying to take you down?

Feels like I'm stating the obvious but...
Sec acts on incomplete information most of the time, so what is "false" for you may be legitimate for them. Resisting violently from the get-go will just confirm you were rightfully wanted. It ends up being a shitty situation for everyone involved. It's also, quite obviously, abused by shitters whose standard reaction is to always resist whether they're innocent or not, so they get to escalate, maybe not to murder, but sure enough to "I'm gonna end this sec officer's whole career" levels of shittery.

Now I know how annoying it is to be arrested "for no reason", so that's how I rolled: take in whoever shows as "wanted" on the hud, once in the brig tell them why they were wanted, if sec logs didn't provide a reason then ask on sec channel, if no answer was given then immediately release them. This went a long way in de-escalating grievances

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Gamarr » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:40 pm #513463

This is why you run, always. They have no requirement to be competent and you have no guarantee to not be shit on.
Just don't get caught. The station is big, go enjoy maintenance. They want you, they can come in after you, and things happen in the dark.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby MrStonedOne » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:52 pm #513464

halitosisman wrote:Here's a story.

I was playing xenobio one round, and got light pink slime extracts. I then proceeded to march in front of brig and announce in all caps that I was willing to distribute them freely to sec officers for several minutes. Security completely ignored me. Apparently the fastest way to give sec stuff is hand it to the greytide instead, because when I did that security came bounding for the extracts in seconds. After getting brigged and released, I spent the rest of the round as a law abiding scientist in xeno.

But wait, there's more.

For some reason that I still don't know to this day, the detective decided to walk into xeno and open fire on me without a word (IIRC it was nonlethal shots). As my only weapon was a burning orange extract, I lit the area around me on fire to scare him away. He continued his assault heedless of the skin leaving his body, and burnt to a crisp.

Having dealt with that minor distraction, I asked over comms why I was wanted, and got no answer, so I continued my research. Sec, however, was determined to drag the xenobio out of his lab. More poor souls were sent to the researcher's lair, and not one of them escaped unscathed. Xenobio was becoming an increasingly difficult work environment, so I decided to stock up on an hour or two's worth of Xeno goodies and take a vacation around the station. More security attempted to apprehend me, and more security ended up in medbay. I tried bringing a dead body I found in space to cloning, thinking the common folk would see my good intentions. A lynch mob formed in medbay instead and tried to attack me. I released another incendiary cloud a safe distance from cloning to cover my retreat.

As I eventually found out, the one thing my xenobio arsenal was defenseless against was shocked grills, and by sheer coincidence engineering had decided that round to pour enough power into the system to instacrit. I went down on a shocked grill and got teleported to dorms. The lynch mob wailing on me there was unaware of my dead man's switch, and I ended the round as a hole in the station.

So should I have accepted my initial wrongful arrest, by a det and not a proper security officer I might add, or enjoyed the best round I've had to date?


I am all in favor for this outcome actually.

Security frequently power games how they arrest people by never telling them they are under arrest, never attempting to fully understand what is going on, and basing decisions from (sometimes incorrect) meta knowledge that used to get you banned back when I started here.

So I certainly think that if you as security are not going to role play your arrest, and powergame/minmax the arrest by doing the shoot first and ask questions once they are cuffed bit, there should be no obligation on the part of the other party to roleplay their defence.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:33 pm #513489

MrStonedOne wrote:So I certainly think that if you as security are not going to role play your arrest, and powergame/minmax the arrest by doing the shoot first and ask questions once they are cuffed bit, there should be no obligation on the part of the other party to roleplay their defence.
But the reason sec does this is because it's usually the only feasible way to arrest someone at all... You seriously cannot blame sec players for this. Tiders will more often than not sprint away from or start disarm spamming sec the second they smell them in the wind, long before there's even time for "STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!"
If wordless arrests are unfair, bad roleplay, couldn't you say the same about that?

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby crashmatusow » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:30 pm #513497

How can you seriously expect security to RP arrests when antags can (and will) wordlessly murder you in the time it takes to say “stop right there”.

Or a tider will shove/disarm you.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Kingfish » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:17 pm #513512

sec gas mask has a HALT! button which you can mash

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby crashmatusow » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 pm #513513

Going from wordless arrests to arrested after pushing text macro button isn’t exactly the greatest leap in rp quality

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Kingfish » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 pm #513520

it communicates the same purpose though, which is “stop motherfucker”

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Calomel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:02 pm #513540

By their own nature, tiders and powergamers will not saya word, whether they are sec or against sec.
The problem is more that the key is the "faith" of the agressor/victim, which is almost imposible to determine at first glance.
(Is that sec officer batoning someone becaue he has proofs, because a traitor has cunningly convinced him
of an innocent person's guilt, or just because? In all cases the actions perceived by the victim are the same).

The real deal here is that in an ideal scenario, a lawyer will be there to discuss what happened, and if the arrest is illegal,
the victim will be inmediately released, or an authority can be contacted to provoke a demotion. Unfortuantely,
lawyers are always wasting their time instead of doing their job, and when they do try to do their job, they
are brushed aside.
The lawyer's role is to protect the arrested, and ensure that there's no shitsec, but he has
no weapons to do so (Specially since most of the time the HoS, HoP or Captain wil ignore the situation
since there's "more important stuff to do") and they can be easily just ignored, which can be
very frustrating. And trials are a joke.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Cobby » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:54 pm #513571

crashmatusow wrote:How can you seriously expect security to RP arrests when antags can (and will) wordlessly murder you in the time it takes to say “stop right there”.

Or a tider will shove/disarm you.


This is exactly what he's talking about.

If you aren't going to "be the better man" and sometimes accept that doing this will put you at a disadvantage (aka caring more about playing the role instead of "winning" aka roleplaying), you can't expect the other side to either.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby crashmatusow » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:18 pm #513602

Prisoners dilemma makes this a race to the bottom in favor of powergamers. People will not suddenly start RPing arrests if it means a consistently higher rate of round removal, because getting round removed during an arrest is almost never a compelling experience.

Being able to instantaneously pull out a gun and start gunning someone down with perfect accuracy is pretty retarded from an RP perspective too. Like asking your DM for a full surprise round because you went for your gun during a conversation

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:06 am #513625

crashmatusow wrote:Prisoners dilemma makes this a race to the bottom in favor of powergamers. People will not suddenly start RPing arrests if it means a consistently higher rate of round removal, because getting round removed during an arrest is almost never a compelling experience.


Only way to make this stop would be to actually police powergaming, which will never happen. As much as I would like powergamers to go away.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Sandshark808 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:12 am #513627

Dr_bee wrote:
crashmatusow wrote:Prisoners dilemma makes this a race to the bottom in favor of powergamers. People will not suddenly start RPing arrests if it means a consistently higher rate of round removal, because getting round removed during an arrest is almost never a compelling experience.


Only way to make this stop would be to actually police powergaming, which will never happen. As much as I would like powergamers to go away.

Or for sec officers to become so robust that tiders are willing to negotiate.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby NoxVS » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:39 am #513641

Security tries to arrest you, comply, they bring you in and accuse you of being a changeling, executed, ahelp, admins say its justified

Security tries to arrest you, resist, they begin trying to chase you down and execute you, fight back you get banned for killing sec who are "justified in arresting you", if you dont fight back they keep coming at you until they eventually arrest you and execute you because you ran away and obviously were guilty
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby actioninja » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:55 am #513660

It's almost like this is a game built on limited information, misdirection, and trying to make the most of what information you have. Mistakes happen.

Losing is part of the game.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Arathian » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:14 am #513664

Losing is part of the game, and a part of the game I really like. And sometimes wrong information can lead to wrong actions that were, nevertheless, taken reasonably. My whole previous ban appeal hinged upon this.

My problem is less upon people acting on strong, but in the end wrong, information and more on security acting like shitters deliberately which lead to later escalations.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 am #513866

Arathian wrote:Losing is part of the game, and a part of the game I really like. And sometimes wrong information can lead to wrong actions that were, nevertheless, taken reasonably. My whole previous ban appeal hinged upon this.

My problem is less upon people acting on strong, but in the end wrong, information and more on security acting like shitters deliberately which lead to later escalations.

"strong but wrong" information is a cool take but the strength of information relies basically entirely upon the perception of said information. you can't really make an objective call on it from one side, ever
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Arathian » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:36 pm #513989

My personal take on this is seeing if someone took his actions "in good faith". In short, were they acting because they truly believed what they have been told and the evidence or because they "got valids - time to toolbox someone yay!".

Of course, there is a reasonability clause in there, but it should be reserved for truly on-the-eye things. The only time I remember ahelping shitsec was a detective who gunned me down to death in the middle of the hallway as RD because, and I quote, "your fingerprints were in the chapel" which still leaves me baffled as to what the fuck that meant. He was new and he got a good talkin' from an admin and a note instead of a ban and that was perfectly fine by me.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Cobby » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:40 am #514048

Losing is part of the game goes both ways. If you try to catch the wrong guy and you end up getting killed for it, get over it.

Like I said, regardless of what job you're playing or what you're doing, it's not fun to have your round ruined due to misinformation. The Officer and the victim should be on equal playing fields because they both risk sitting out for the rest of the round.

The ONLY catch should be the victim must have proof the officer is going in for the kill to be able to kill the officer.

Honestly freekills should only be made when you have proof (not someone over radio, etc) that they're an antag or otherwise deserving of lethals.
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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:17 am #514064

Cobby wrote:
Honestly freekills should only be made when you have proof (not someone over radio, etc) that they're an antag or otherwise deserving of lethals.


Escalation as a whole really put a damper on actually having to proof before you get your valids. Why bother getting proof they are an antag when you can bait them into attacking you and then beat them to death.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:57 am #514144

Dr_bee wrote:
Cobby wrote:
Honestly freekills should only be made when you have proof (not someone over radio, etc) that they're an antag or otherwise deserving of lethals.


Escalation as a whole really put a damper on actually having to proof before you get your valids. Why bother getting proof they are an antag when you can bait them into attacking you and then beat them to death.


Sec has a double standard, where you cant just toolbox them to death after they shove you once, they gotta hit you with a restricted or a deadly weapon first (stunprod, spear, hatchet, saw, stunbaton etc) and even then its 50-50 whether a feelmin comes and starts grilling you fnr or not.

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Re: Escalation against security falsely arresting you

Postby Reeeee » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:31 am #514179

Here's a neat gimmick i learned as Pacifist.

Sec guy dashes you with batong out; dodge, but don't run. Stay in the conflict area, do not escalate nor escape.
He either stops and starts wondering why neither are happening and finally talks to you, you work it out.
Option b is he disablers you, if he does, don't dodge, just say "i submit" or something when he is pewing you while holding still.

Every time i do this as non-antag, i get to walk out of brig after my pockets and bag are checked, sometimes PDA, i get to keep my insulos and toolbelt at 100% health.
If I don't, I ahelp. I have yet to ahelp anyone except two motherfuckers who went full apemode once on warops for no discernible reason but to specifically shitsec by moving straight to execution room. Even that was ICly solved in the end.

You run, you are guilty, if you run and make sec guy work for no gain, he's gonna take your insulos, keep the toolbelt and slap you on ten minute timer and then disposal you and space your heirloom. Real fact is that those motherfuckers wanna sort the bad guys out, not chase tide around cus they are acting "bit shit". Sec doesn't really fucking give hoots ass you have insulated gloves and some "contraband" (the fuck even is contraband? Having spear is just being smart on SS13. If it's not bloody, who gives a burned rats ass.) as long as you don't make it hard for them to keep you safe. And that's the real issue, people not considering sec a required minor discomfort, instead free valids and loot bags and something to get lynched for giggles. It's not about you escalating, it's sec being helpful to you being a two way street.

It works both ways, you make it hard for sec, sec makes it hard for you, regardless how non-antag you are.
And if they are not doing that as sec, fucking bucklecuff em in maint naked and then inform local antags where the sad soul is over common.

But you have to accept the fact that it's a game and 1/100 it's a ling that's gonna succ you otherwise whole game falls on it's head and we could just remove security as job and add gunlockers to departments.
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