Rage Cages on Manuel: Completely Fine or the Evil Spawn of Satan?

[NoxVS]

Recently someone was banned for building a rage cage on Manuel.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=25319
The ban was successfully appealed but the appeal reason wasn't "banning for rage is stupid" but because the person actually had permission to build it. Which seems to imply if they didn't have permission it wouldn't have been a successful appeal. It seems to say that rage cages are fine if they are already built, were built in public by command's orders, or were built in private.
Lots of people seemed annoyed with this ban and its difficult to tell if its actually allowed or not so I figured I would make a policy post.

[Farquaar]

Rage cages in maintenance are probably all right, provided you don't have more important work to do and actually RP starting an underground fight club. Rage cages in public spaces are something that should be left for the low RP servers.

As for Heads of Staff authorizing their construction, that's a no-go unless there is a very good reason for sacrificing the health and lives of crewmembers in an electrified death arena. Authorizing a rage cage to entertain a bloodthirsty malf AI to buy time is okay. Authorizing a rage cage because 'It's cool and I'm bored' is not.

[Horza]

Rage cages in maintenance are probably all right, provided you don't have more important work to do and actually RP starting an underground fight club. Rage cages in public spaces are something that should be left for the low RP servers.

As for Heads of Staff authorizing their construction, that's a no-go unless there is a very good reason for sacrificing the health and lives of crewmembers in an electrified death arena. Authorizing a rage cage to entertain a bloodthirsty malf AI to buy time is okay. Authorizing a rage cage because 'It's cool and I'm bored' is not.

This entire post sums up my feelings on the matter, and thus doesn't need to be rewritten.
Rage cages are also a long-time tradition, and thus should be treated as such.

Spoiler:

Like cloning.

[Yenwodyah]

Rage cages are fun for everyone involved - the guy building them, the people fighting in them, and the doctor that gets something to do when the loser needs healing. There's no reason to ban them.

[Sheodir]

Comes down to the Emm Arr Pees in my opinion. Silently building a rage cage because "Lols" is lame as shit and should be discouraged, but roleplaying out an entrepeneur who decides the station needs entertainment and medbay needs to justify its budget is fine. MRP should be about adding a degree of interaction and storytelling to the station's madness, not entirely erase that madness.

[Vekter]

I agree with Farquaar on this one - it can be an interesting RP opportunity, but just building one in the bar for shits and giggles should be verboten.

[NoxVS]

I agree with Farquaar on this one - it can be an interesting RP opportunity, but just building one in the bar for shits and giggles should be verboten.

Ok but why. Do all building projects require some grand monologue or something or else they are immersion ruining? It’s not like it’s some guy running around screaming autistically over comms, it’s a box. Just ignore it and move on.

Banning over building a rage cage just feels like it’s entering the territory of banning people for trying to have fun. There’s no victim here.

[Ayy Lemoh]

I agree with Farquaar on this one - it can be an interesting RP opportunity, but just building one in the bar for shits and giggles should be verboten.

Ok but why. Do all building projects require some grand monologue or something or else they are immersion ruining? It’s not like it’s some guy running around screaming autistically over comms, it’s a box. Just ignore it and move on.

Banning over building a rage cage just feels like it’s entering the territory of banning people for trying to have fun. There’s no victim here.

Yeah, this is clearly the territory of HRP where having fun does not mean actually having fun but is about explaining why you should and must have fun or else we'll ban you for ten years due to fail rp and breaking my immersion.

If it's a voluntary rage cage and not some random disposals bin trap in the hallways where now you have to fight for your life then why the fuck would you ban for this? That's something HRP should punish, not MRP.

[Jack7D1]

Jack7D1 attacks the post with the wire cutters!

I agree with Farquaar

[RaveRadbury]

Building a rage cage in the bar on Manuel is bad for the social aspect of MRP.

Let's take Meta for example, as that's the map that's being used half the time. Rages cages in the Meta bar are most frequently built in the room that shares the theater. According to the area definies it is the bar, but looking at the room itself it also functions as audience seating for the theater. The theater is the space of the performers. Now you may say "No one uses that space, so if the bartender says it's okay we should just go for it." I'd argue that the theater is very much like the courtroom, in that it's got potential for something but LRP rulesets discourage audience gatherings and general chaos prevents such coordinated efforts from occurring. I therefore assert that blocking or affecting the theater (and entailing audience) space is ruining a public space that is intended for spontaneous social interaction, in addition to infringing on the space of the performers. A rage cage in the bar will have an inner diameter (fight ring) of 3 squares, with an outer diameter of 5 squares. It will be so large that it occupies most of the room and access to the theater space itself, while also failing to provide a fightspace larger than 3x3.

Bar rage cages are an eyesore, step on the toes of other roles and the crew in general, and are generally low effort. A rage cage built pretty much everywhere else looks better and makes for better matches.


Here's a rage cage I saw on Manuel that I think does meet standards for size, execution, and location.

I'd like to go one step further and also say that silently dismantling the library for wood shouldn't be acceptable. There are several sources of wood on the station, basically rooms that are the domain of a job role shouldn't be looted for their materials/space.

[wesoda25]

A rage cage is a perfect way for the potential of the theater that you talk about to be realized. Its literally the greatest form of entertainment, and could easily develop roleplay even without prior approval.

[NecromancerAnne]

If your rage cage doesn't meet union standards, you are being banned. I'm sorry.

Spoiler:

Don't fucking ban for rage cages just tell people to fucking move them. They're opt-in fun and brutality, this is perfectly fucking fine and not against the rules. It's ridiculous that someone got banned for it at all, but that's going into peanut post territory.

If there are issues with it blocking departments up, just tell them to move the cage.

[PKPenguin321]

but that's going into peanut post territory.

tf is this shit about peanut posting on this board? you cant even do that in policy discussion

[Screemonster]

I'd put rage cages squarely in the realm of "allowable silliness within the context of the SS13 game world". Even HRP servers have rage cages from time to time.
That's not to say you're immune to security breaking it up if it's in the way but as long as you're not leaving exposed electrified grilles right in the hallway to shock people then who cares, IC issue.

[Armhulen]

i'd prefer if rage cages weren't banned, custom build projects should be encouraged at any decent roleplay level no matter how uninspired they may be

[Vekter]

Since this was my ban, I might as well give my input on the matter in general.

Building a rage cage in the bar is stupid for the exact reasons Rave mentioned. Doing so for the sheer hell of it is stupid because 1) it doesn't invite any interesting RP situations and 2) is just an excuse to beat the piss out of one another.

If you are going to build a rage cage, at least attempt to make it something interesting. Use the boxing ring that is literally 100 units north of the bar. Build it in Maintenance. Do what those guys did on Meta below the bridge, that shit is cool. Put effort into it. Know what would be cool? An unsanctioned fight ring in the maint bar. Shit, you could do betting. That provides some great RP, especially when sec eventually finds out and has to bust it up. Throwing it up in the bar isn't the worst thing in the world, but at least be creative about it.

I banned the guy because I misinterpreted the Manuel rules as far as that went, so I unabnned him. I'm allowed to make mistakes.

tl;dr Just... just go read Rave's post, honestly it's better than mine.

[Grazyn]

Server rules say don't do anything that would cause you to be fired IRL, building a rage cage in public without authorization would definitely be a valid reason for termination.

[Cobby]

I’d be okay with it if there was an attempt to be covert (rule 1 of fight club) or it was sanctioned by the captain. If you wanna practice turning people horizontal just because you can you should probably do it on the other server. It’s not like you can’t switch between them to get the experience you’re looking for, and it’s also respectful of the other people who are playing.

Reminder people are playing Manuel because they’re expecting it to be a higher standard of RP and they find that “fun” so if you think your action might push against that simply go to the less-RP server. It’s not like you’re chained to one.

[confused rock]

mediumrp should try to get the least bad of both worlds, prohibiting stupid shit that isn't immersion destroying and doesn't bother most people is for highrp.
Which is why felinids are still enabled on manuel

[Cobby]

I could see a covert one being okay because that's more plausible than "ok guys im going to make a death pit on the company dime at bar where everyone can see haha ".

I could see a boxing ring being okay to make but for some reason we have to protect public kill rings?

[deedubya]

Honestly, I just had a thought regarding "don't do anything that would get you fired IRL".

Why not just loosen that a bit and...you know, actually fire them? If we want more roleplay scenarios, we should be loosening the intervention stranglehold a bit and letting the situations actually play out. Although with that said, intent is still important, so people that are obviously just doing it to fuck around, grief, or with zero justification should get the hammer. But if someone's building a rage cage in the bar because they want to see some blood sports? Arrest them, don't ban them.

[Qbopper]

rage cages would be much more fun if actually RPed as an underground secret thing in maint and not some weird and dumb project in the bar or whatever

as usual rave continues to be based and manuelpilled

[bandit]

I have no real opinion on rage cages either way but the argument that "it's fine if it isn't in the bar/theater" is fucking bizarre. it's not like there is some crucial space station maintenance operation that is being disrupted by one being there, and honestly in societies that have gladiator shit it's always taken place in a theater or bar-type space anyway

[Vekter]

rage cages would be much more fun if actually RPed as an underground secret thing in maint and not some weird and dumb project in the bar or whatever

as usual rave continues to be based and manuelpilled

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

I think part of the fun of the game should be the challenge and reward of running a somewhat effective, orderly, and clean station amidst employee incompetence and traitors and catastrophic events... Is it really that fun or immersive to see a big ugly electric gladiator cage in an extremely public part of this corporate space station, blood all over hell's half acre constantly, and comms dominated by people commentating? I think building rage cages in maintenance makes a lot more sense and I'd echo what other people have already said here about an unsanctioned shady Fight Club type thing being a lot more interesting than "LOL RAGE CAGE AT THE BAR EVERYONE, AI PLEASE REFEREE". We already have a couple maps in rotation that give you a place to do it, too.

I think underneath the rage cage thing there is a bigger and as of now very open-ended question lacking precedent; what kinds of shenanigans should heads of staff and sec sign off on anyway? And where is a generally good balance between realism and fun? I hope the admins and players alike can figure out how to use rule 8 to promote fun and not turn us into a paperwork sim, but my experiences on Manuel have been that rule 8 isn't being enforced strictly enough at present.

[Qbopper]

I have no real opinion on rage cages either way but the argument that "it's fine if it isn't in the bar/theater" is fucking bizarre. it's not like there is some crucial space station maintenance operation that is being disrupted by one being there, and honestly in societies that have gladiator shit it's always taken place in a theater or bar-type space anyway

Think of it less as "it's fine if it isn't in the bar" and more "it is infinitely more interesting if it's not in the bar"

[Mickyan]

So far all of the rage cages I've seen on manuel have been done by 1-2 people that expect people to flock to it and wordlessly kill each other on a roleplay server, unsurprisingly they stay unused and just end up blocking normal passage. Just use the boxing ring if anyone cares to actually fight.

[Qbopper]

this thread is making me think about building an underground fight ring and there's honestly far more fun things that can happen if you don't do it in the bar

you could have betting pools over fights since we have money now, you could hire a doctor under the table to patch up fighters without dragging them to medbay and arousing suspicion (maybe even setting up a ghetto room to patch people up), the heads/security could try and crack down on it and break it up...

suit sensors admittedly fuck with this a bit but I dunno I think the idea of crew members talking in hushed whispers when their superior is around about going to see a fight in a few minutes is a cool idea

[Shaps-cloud]

If you build a rage cage in a hidden corner of maint no one will go to it and use it because no one will see it. Putting it in a prominent location maximizes exposure and thus maximizes participation. Just because you think it sounds super cool and hardcore and gritty in your head doesn't mean it'll actually be feasible in game

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

[Qbopper]

If you build a rage cage in a hidden corner of maint no one will go to it and use it because no one will see it. Putting it in a prominent location maximizes exposure and thus maximizes participation. Just because you think it sounds super cool and hardcore and gritty in your head doesn't mean it'll actually be feasible in game

obviously? I didn't think it was super feasible but like. you could. tell people about it IC

I doubt it would work anyways but it's way more interesting to think about than "LOL FITAN IN BAR" for the 40000th fucking time

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

I don't think anyone was debating this

[MMMiracles]

Banning people for shit that should be dealt with ICly by the actual on-station security force sounds like a real slippery slope into the "office job simulator" scenario places like Baystation sits in. Why wouldn't security in this instance be the ones to stop this public rage-cage instead of an admin stepping in and going "uhhhhh sorry bubster brown but this isn't part of your job gonna have to ban you for failrp."

I'd rather my incentive for building a secret maintenance fight club be "we need to hide it or else security will bust our asses", rather than "we need to hide it else an admin will ban us for failrp."

[Cobby]

@Shaps that's the point, because most people who are interested in playing their character to the level that they'd join a MRP server have little interest in participating, maybe a few more wouldn't mind watching, in death sports for no other reason because (they're bored) which is why I suggested that you just go to LRP to make your killpit if you have that much of a desire.

@MMMiracles I partially agree. IC issue if you've made SOME attempt to be discreet. If you're not going to even bother doing that then you clearly don't care.

When we say rage-cages, i'm assuming we mean kill pits. I don't have an issue with boxing rings/fighting arenas so long as the grounds for the fight aren't until someone dies. The whole til death part and flaunting that combined is what tips me over the edge of what I think is acceptable for MRP.

[RaveRadbury]

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

I don't think anyone was debating this

I actually did go so far as to suggest that messing up/stripping the theater and library shouldn't be allowed on Manuel.

[Qbopper]

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

I don't think anyone was debating this

I actually did go so far as to suggest that messing up/stripping the theater and library shouldn't be allowed on Manuel.

I am not a smart person

[bandit]

If you build a rage cage in a hidden corner of maint no one will go to it and use it because no one will see it. Putting it in a prominent location maximizes exposure and thus maximizes participation. Just because you think it sounds super cool and hardcore and gritty in your head doesn't mean it'll actually be feasible in game

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

shaps is correct as usual

[PKPenguin321]

If you build a rage cage in a hidden corner of maint no one will go to it and use it because no one will see it. Putting it in a prominent location maximizes exposure and thus maximizes participation. Just because you think it sounds super cool and hardcore and gritty in your head doesn't mean it'll actually be feasible in game

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

shaps is correct as usual

yep, utterly bizarre to me that there was a ban for this
did anyone even complain? was even one person negatively impacted?

[Sheodir]

Banning people for shit that should be dealt with ICly by the actual on-station security force sounds like a real slippery slope into the "office job simulator" scenario places like Baystation sits in. Why wouldn't security in this instance be the ones to stop this public rage-cage instead of an admin stepping in and going "uhhhhh sorry bubster brown but this isn't part of your job gonna have to ban you for failrp."

I'd rather my incentive for building a secret maintenance fight club be "we need to hide it or else security will bust our asses", rather than "we need to hide it else an admin will ban us for failrp."

I agree with this guy but feel there should also be shoves to make people actually RP out setting up the fight club rather than building it in silence then going "rage cage in bar y no one go there". However, not bans, but warnings. Really, bwoink to incentivize people in the right direction.

If you build a rage cage in a hidden corner of maint no one will go to it and use it because no one will see it. Putting it in a prominent location maximizes exposure and thus maximizes participation. Just because you think it sounds super cool and hardcore and gritty in your head doesn't mean it'll actually be feasible in game

The theater and bar club should be considered public meeting spaces open to all. Until I see clowns and mines actually start producing full length plays, I see no reason why other people can't use the space

Except in Manuel they just get frustrated nobody wants to engage with their FailRP contraption and there's no roleplay in using the default built in bar one. Like really, it's never been successfully made in Manuel because nobody wants to engage and just ends up being an eyesore. I do agree it's not bannable but it's kinda cringe tbh

IC issue tho

did anyone even complain? was even one person negatively impacted?

In OOC Manuel regs were indeed complaining that it was failRP after a standard bar rage cage failed to gain traction and there was discussion on exactly this issue

there's an issue of slippery slope here where manuel regs really want people to pipe down on LRP behavior but going full admin on these issues is a bit too much

it's p tenuous a line to balance on

[Screemonster]

In OOC Manuel regs were indeed complaining that it was failRP after a standard bar rage cage failed to gain traction and there was discussion on exactly this issue

there's an issue of slippery slope here where manuel regs really want people to pipe down on LRP behavior but going full admin on these issues is a bit too much

it's p tenuous a line to balance on

In my experience as a HRP admin, I learned there's a constant battle between people who think HRP means "everything must be sensible and if you do anything silly at all it's failRP" and people who think Discworld is a perfectly viable HRP setting as long as you RP in a manner that is consistent with that setting.

I happen to be in the latter camp, which made the serious roleplayers mad when I told them to fuck off with their reports that they were observing and saw someone in an empty room "not roleplaying properly".

[Sheodir]

In my experience as a HRP admin, I learned there's a constant battle between people who think HRP means "everything must be sensible and if you do anything silly at all it's failRP" and people who think Discworld is a perfectly viable HRP setting as long as you RP in a manner that is consistent with that setting.

I happen to be in the latter camp, which made the serious roleplayers mad when I told them to fuck off with their reports that they were observing and saw someone in an empty room "not roleplaying properly".

I feel the distinction here is ACTUALLY ROLEPLAYING

I don't think anyone would have a problem with actually roleplaying making a rage cage where everyone is reacting to the thing being made consistently but instead it's the same greyshit making the same rage cage in complete silence who then whines about nobody getting into rage cage on Common and when he's arrested says "fucking shitsec"

I think if you roleplay it out anything is good on MRP but at the same time that "tenuous line" comes into play, most people in MRP are very sensitive to LRP and FailRP behavior and will screech loudly and more easily at it

[Qbopper]

yeah it's admittedly very strange to me that people are in a thread about the MRP server and basically ignoring MRP as a factor, I dunno

[bandit]

shaps is one of the more rp-oriented admins though

[Farquaar]

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d much rather throw my life away at a hidden fight club in maint that I learned about on a message written on a napkin.

[Qbopper]

shaps is one of the more rp-oriented admins though

i... i know this... and i don't see how it discounts my post in any way

[Cobby]

I’m not a fan of the “was anyone hurt by it” argument because that was never the point of the issue to begin with and really takes the entire rp-standard out of the equation.

If we’re being peculiar then yes, people who are going to Manuel for the immersive experience seeing someone just casually building a death pit in public will be “hurt” by this.

[cacogen]

eurrgh

[confused rock]

I’m not a fan of the “was anyone hurt by it” argument because that was never the point of the issue to begin with and really takes the entire rp-standard out of the equation.

If we’re being peculiar then yes, people who are going to Manuel for the immersive experience seeing someone just casually building a death pit in public will be “hurt” by this.

Rage cages are far from the most common immersion breaking thing we have, though. Plenty of other stuff like
People running around with single word or blatantly meme names like wayne king, lamp lover, fluffy, kat blu (haha get it its like kat green because its a green cat but now it’s blue)
Dank meme announcements from other stations
Prison skirts with the jumpsuits because we live in the 1900s and in a fucking chemistry lab
Lavaland guys casually walking around in dragon bones
Things with neon cat ears and tails with no other physical differences or explanation that can confuse the ai without them even realising it

[Cobby]

meme names should be cut down on.
Manuel shouldn't see announcements from LRP servers.
Idk why we have prison skirts but probably could handwave this with rise of SJW from current day to ss13 time tbh.
Clothing made from bones is... sensible? The dragon itself is more of an argument I guess but it's just a monster you have to face in this nutty sci-fi world.
Genetic Mutations, perfectly sensible in the setting's context?

All that said, I don't see why that justifies adding fuel to the alleged fire.

[Qbopper]

I’m not a fan of the “was anyone hurt by it” argument because that was never the point of the issue to begin with and really takes the entire rp-standard out of the equation.

If we’re being peculiar then yes, people who are going to Manuel for the immersive experience seeing someone just casually building a death pit in public will be “hurt” by this.

Rage cages are far from the most common immersion breaking thing we have, though. Plenty of other stuff like
People running around with single word or blatantly meme names like wayne king, lamp lover, fluffy, kat blu (haha get it its like kat green because its a green cat but now it’s blue)
Dank meme announcements from other stations
Prison skirts with the jumpsuits because we live in the 1900s and in a fucking chemistry lab
Lavaland guys casually walking around in dragon bones
Things with neon cat ears and tails with no other physical differences or explanation that can confuse the ai without them even realising it

the existence of other bad things doesn't mean we should just start letting everything slide, though

[confused rock]

When we DO let everything slide, gutting one part of it with no change to the others feels like you're using it as an excuse.



Also

AI's spamming vox....


also also I guess

Idk why we have prison skirts but probably could handwave this with rise of SJW from current day to ss13 time tbh.
Clothing made from bones is... sensible? The dragon itself is more of an argument I guess but it's just a monster you have to face in this nutty sci-fi world.
Genetic Mutations, perfectly sensible in the setting's context?

If the game's setting can justify the cultural change of enjoying wearing a bulky ass skeleton indoors and prison skirts, I don't see how the setting, which allows effectively any traditional injury to be healed, can't justify people being so bored they end up killing each other for excitement nor is it hard to believe a cultural shift to support violent entertainment when it's so safe.

[RaveRadbury]

It's not about whether or not rage cages should be allowed, it's about where rage cages should be allowed.