Remove family members's full antag status

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FloranOtten
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Remove family members's full antag status

Postby FloranOtten » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:29 am #567767

A voluntary conversion mode to full antag is, shockingly, a terrible idea. It just means that every round devolves into bombing and plasmaflooding because hey, free antag! This means that instead of fighting among each other while trying to keep the stars down and then defeat the cops, you end up with a situation where the cops just arrive in a warzone and walk about trying to kill the last members so the shuttle can leave.
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1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!



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Thunder11
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Thunder11 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:25 am #567774

Since this change was made I've seen a distinct change in behaviour during families rounds, with security moving more and more towards extreme crackdowns, permabrigging every family member and hunting down undercover cops to steal their gang huds. Previously family members' semi antag status meant admins could protect them from these kinds of measures, but making them full antags allows security to freely treat them as valid, and as long as gangsters are allowed to go off and murderbone there's no way to justify telling security not to act like it's a rev round without flashes.

This isn't fun for security, because it's just rev with a fresh coat of paint and every single antag is a revhead, and it isn't fun for family members because if you even try to play the mode like you're a gangster and not a revolutionary you'll just be arrested and permabrigged because sec can't know your intentions.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby trollbreeder » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:36 am #567778

To clarify, goof's intention was, and i quote from the original PR description:
Iamgoofball wrote:Gangster VS Gangster: Valid. All times. Even if it's same-team. These crime families aren't exactly known for their stability or rigid code of honor.
Gangster VS Civvie: Don't start shit for no good reason. Standard escalation rules apply.
Civvie VS Gangster: Same as above.
Security: Security IS civvies for all intents and purposes. Unless they join up with a gang.


However this was changed due to headmins not wanting to enforce "specialty valid rules"

Screenshots on discord:
Spoiler:
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e: lol I accidentally edited this post instead of replying to it. My bad. -phuzz
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Cobby
 
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:34 pm #567789

Gangs are still team antagonists, I’m not sure what point of reference people are using to justify mass sabotage and murderboning.

If the idea that murderboning is ok because you can’t discern who is and who isn’t your team instead of you cannot murderbone for this reason then we should stop running it on LRP as they are beyond help.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby saprasam » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:09 am #567899

reminder that you can stop all antags by being good at the game
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby cacogen » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:13 am #567934

remove families
You can't be half a gangster
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby SkeletalElite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:37 pm #567988

Remove families members's full antag status

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:55 pm #567993

And thus the cycle continues.

I look forward to sniper rifle jousting enemy gangsters. It's comin'. Just you wait.

(we should never have let gangs have antag status and just let them identify enemy gangs and each other)

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm #568010

what are people pointing to that thinks they get full murderbone abilities as a team antagonist
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby FloranOtten » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:21 pm #568014

Another issue is the unga factor. This mode is just TDM. People wear their team's suit, and security just runs around killing or arresting family members. For good reason, mind you. They would probably end up killing the sec, too. This means that this mode is just revs++.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby pugie » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:18 pm #568038

revs but +++ sounds like a good gamemode thats the philosophy with cult
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:10 am #568077

wait it was full antag all along?

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby NecromancerAnne » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:06 pm #568104

I don't even think anyone has a clue at this point. I feel like we need a headmin to come in pretty soon to clarify this since there is an obviously catastrophic amount of misinformation about this.

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:25 pm #568111

Literally on join it says explicitly you’re a team antag.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby remanseptim » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:05 am #568466

before it was known that family members were real antags, a huge portion of the server suicided whenever the gamemode rolled around.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby cacogen » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:54 pm #568517

remanseptim wrote:before it was known that family members were real antags, a huge portion of the server suicided whenever the gamemode rolled around.

sounds like a dynamic and exciting gamemode
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm #568657

Was it really so hard to just say 'fight the other gangs, not normal crew unless they take the fight too you'? Voluntary full antag is not only ridiculous, but seems entirely contrary to previous policy. Cobby can keep saying they can't bone but what actually stops a solo gangster from going to town, or just two of them to limit friendly casualties? To stop them at this point is to actually break precedent.

If your gang is onboard with it, presumably they can do whatever they want, since they have all the permissions of a normal antag. The only thing we have done is tell people to not be actively harmful towards your teams efforts. If that is 'kill anyone who isn't us', as far as I can tell they can do that.

More importantly so can the fucking cops, since I asked goof and he said they were full antags as well. They have high powered weapons for fucks sake, and their only objective is to kill gangsters, who they can't identify anymore, so it might as well be a deathsquad. We do have antagonistic roles that exist in grey areas, and if the only reason it isn't like this is because it's too confusing for the NPCs that gravitate from the hub, that's tough shit for them?

I'm all for a game mode which lets your choose whether you wish to participate or not in the violence and dumb shit, since forced antag is a pretty bad feel moment in the middle of a project. I am not onboard with unironic free antag with an automated deathsquad to end the round forcefully. If our policy for LRP isn't adequate for a higher standard, why the fuck did we ever enable the game mode there in the first place?

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:55 pm #568799

to clarify, I dont care if you bone so long as you can come to the conclusion that each individual either posed an immediate, legitimate threat to you (self defense) or they were not on your gang.

If you just casually bone and "uh oh i ended up owning my gang" im going to ban you for it. Same as rev with the understanding that not being able to see if they are on your gang is not good enough to excuse instakilling people over.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:13 pm #568871

trollbreeder wrote:To clarify, goof's intention was, and i quote from the original PR description:
Iamgoofball wrote:Gangster VS Gangster: Valid. All times. Even if it's same-team. These crime families aren't exactly known for their stability or rigid code of honor.
Gangster VS Civvie: Don't start shit for no good reason. Standard escalation rules apply.
Civvie VS Gangster: Same as above.
Security: Security IS civvies for all intents and purposes. Unless they join up with a gang.


However this was changed due to headmins not wanting to enforce "specialty valid rules"

Screenshots on discord:
Spoiler:
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We never said anything about "specialty valid rules." The last time someone asked for clarification regarding the antag status of undercover cops, we literally pasted goof's response into the thread.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26909&p=566200#p566198

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby trollbreeder » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:59 am #568928

capn_monkeypaw wrote:We never said anything about "specialty valid rules." The last time someone asked for clarification regarding the antag status of undercover cops, we literally pasted goof's response into the thread.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26909&p=566200#p566198

That's odd and contradictory to what i found, but i guess goof changed it (probably due to unga factor from players.)
I'm a dumb feature coder, also a bad (but not terrible) coderspriter and a semi-good mapper and an enforcer of standards.
you can find me playing when i'm not coding or playing csgo as cleans-the-house on event hall, sybil or manuel

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Cobby
 
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:52 pm #568946

neither should be considered official if they arent relayed to https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings or the policy json
Last edited by Cobby on Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby CrazyClown12 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:26 pm #569202

Can we clarify whether family members are allowed to kill people in their own families if they aren't wearing uniforms?

Wearing a uniform is normally pretty stupid is it identifies to the entire crew that you are an antag and that they are allowed to kill you. For this reason a lot of family members don't identify themselves at such. It's pretty clear that killing your teammates breaks the 'don't harm your team' rule, but is this enforced in families when plain clothes family members die? I've yet to hear any ban and from chatting to some admins they interpret the rule as you not killing anyone who is obviously in your family (clothes, tagging walls etc). In my opinion if you aren't sure whether someone is in your gang or not, you shouldn't kill them. If you do kill someone who turns out to be in your family you should be open to punishment (provided you didn't have reason to believe they weren't in your family, such as wearing another family's outfit.

With all that said, I find the most enjoyable way to play families is not to join one and to pick up a recruitment book. This way you can still kill the police officers who are obvious antags yet are less likely to slaughter random crew members that aren't in families (until more of them realise that they have full antag status anyway, I witnessed a police officer murderboning for the first time today). You also have a light antagHUD by throwing the recruitment book at people. If they read it, you witness them become valid and can kill them. If they tell you they are already in a family, they become valid and you can kill them. I find it a lot more fun than being in a family, where you have to toe the line between being obvious to other family members but not to security or validhunters and then being instantly recognisable by the police.

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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Flatulent » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:09 am #569303

pugie wrote:revs but +++ sounds like a good gamemode thats the philosophy with cult


t. edgar "i dont like cult time to succumb and dnr" pope
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Flatulent » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:15 am #569304

Cobby wrote:Gangs are still team antagonists, I’m not sure what point of reference people are using to justify mass sabotage and murderboning.

direct quote from rule page: Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team.
If your team is too full and you cant get more members you can just go apeshit on the crew.
as long as you end up getting that EPIC GREENTEXT THAT IS VERY COOL WE LIKE GETTING GREENTEXT YES YES you can do whatever the fuck you want
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Re: Remove family members's full antag status

Postby Cobby » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:59 am #569448

See my second to last post
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