Increase hours needed to be a warden

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderators: In-Game Head Admins, In-Game Game Master

Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
User avatar
The Respected Man
 
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:31 am
Byond Username: The Respected Man

Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby The Respected Man » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:36 am #571760

Atleast half the wardens I get are very inexperienced, don't even know how to properly process a prisoner inexperienced.

Just add 5 or 10 more hours as a sec officer to be a warden, that seems reasonable.



User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:58 am #571765

define 'properly process'
oh yeah and hours don't matter. most shitsec are shitsec out of choice, see 90% of all HoS players.
Image

User avatar
The Respected Man
 
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:31 am
Byond Username: The Respected Man

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby The Respected Man » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:07 am #571767

remanseptim wrote:define 'properly process'
oh yeah and hours don't matter. most shitsec are shitsec out of choice, see 90% of all HoS players.

Putting the prisoner's items in the cell locker and uncuffing them after setting the timer.
What i deal with: warden takes prisoner, takes them to the cell, buckles them to the bed and they set the timer. Cue prisoner escaping with their toolbelt after getting the cuffs off.

Also, I don't care about shitsec this thread is about wardens who haven't spent enough time as security officer and it shows.

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:48 am #571768

The Respected Man wrote:Also, I don't care about shitsec this thread is about wardens who haven't spent enough time as security officer and it shows.

those two problems are pretty inextricably linked, if you ask me.
time often doesn't determine a player's expertise, especially when playing sec. there just aren't any punishments for doing a shitty job so long as you're not actually murdering people, and you're basically immune to IC consequences as well.
security don't really have a way of learning through consequences.
Image

User avatar
Armhulen
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: it's a long story

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Armhulen » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:08 am #571769

remanseptim wrote:
The Respected Man wrote:Also, I don't care about shitsec this thread is about wardens who haven't spent enough time as security officer and it shows.

those two problems are pretty inextricably linked, if you ask me.
time often doesn't determine a player's expertise, especially when playing sec. there just aren't any punishments for doing a shitty job so long as you're not actually murdering people, and you're basically immune to IC consequences as well.
security don't really have a way of learning through consequences.

I disagree
Go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

User avatar
The Respected Man
 
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:31 am
Byond Username: The Respected Man

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby The Respected Man » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:55 am #571771

remanseptim wrote:
The Respected Man wrote:Also, I don't care about shitsec this thread is about wardens who haven't spent enough time as security officer and it shows.

those two problems are pretty inextricably linked, if you ask me.
time often doesn't determine a player's expertise, especially when playing sec. there just aren't any punishments for doing a shitty job so long as you're not actually murdering people, and you're basically immune to IC consequences as well.
security don't really have a way of learning through consequences.

Their "punishment" is me telling them that the prisoner escaped from their cell using the tool belt that they forgot to put in the locker. They don't repeat the same mistake most of the time.
I don't know what server you play on but over on terry the players aren't so dumb that they require "IC consequences" to learn basic procedures. If the other servers have uhhh... "Special" players that don't get decent at sec without IC consequences then I'd like to change my suggestion to only cover my server, Terry, as we do not have this problem.

User avatar
wesoda25
 
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:01 am #571772

What are the current time requirements for the various security roles?

User avatar
pugie
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
Byond Username: Doctor Brutality

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby pugie » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:33 am #571780

wesoda25 wrote:What are the current time requirements for the various security roles?


Something like 5h as crew 15h as sec for hos & det is unlocked from the get go
john sex

User avatar
Flatulent
 
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:36 am
Location: Teaman Square, 1350
Byond Username: FlatulentIndustrialist

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Flatulent » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:05 pm #571870

how does 5-10h as normal sec make people know how to play warden
bindy liberation front
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries

cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post

cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.

Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:12 pm #571871

Flatulent wrote:how does 5-10h as normal sec make people know how to play warden

that first 10 hours usually consists of 9 hours walking around the station aimlessly with your stun baton out, 50 minutes wordlessly dragging people to cells and struggling with the UI, and 10 minutes getting new stun batons because John Greytide stole yours.
new players are drawn to sec.
Image

User avatar
pugie
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
Byond Username: Doctor Brutality

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby pugie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:41 pm #571881

remanseptim wrote:
Flatulent wrote:how does 5-10h as normal sec make people know how to play warden

that first 10 hours usually consists of 9 hours walking around the station aimlessly with your stun baton out, 50 minutes wordlessly dragging people to cells and struggling with the UI, and 10 minutes getting new stun batons because John Greytide stole yours.
new players are drawn to sec.


They're drawn to the game actually
john sex

User avatar
Sheodir
 
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
Byond Username: Sheodir

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Sheodir » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:02 pm #571884

remanseptim wrote:new players are drawn to sec.


Local man literally insane
Sec is the last role most newbies want to play because it's no antag allowed follow the rules hour and they're afraid of getting their ass kicked by John Tider or the clown
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

User avatar
NecromancerAnne
 
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:46 pm #571888

Requiring playtime as a security officer, then as warden for HoS seems like a good progression to get the fundamentals.

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:00 am #571941

Sheodir wrote:Local man literally insane

new players see role with supposed authority, that starts with gamer gear and has a role that seems pretty retard-proof (arrest the bad guys)
they conflate power with fun
Image

User avatar
Agux909
 
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
Byond Username: Agux909

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:46 am #571944

remanseptim wrote:most players see role with supposed authority, that starts with gamer gear and has a role that seems pretty retard-proof (arrest the bad guys)
they conflate power with fun


there, more accurate
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

User avatar
Sheodir
 
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
Byond Username: Sheodir

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Sheodir » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:21 am #571947

remanseptim wrote:
Sheodir wrote:Local man literally insane

new players see role with supposed authority, that starts with gamer gear and has a role that seems pretty retard-proof (arrest the bad guys)
they conflate power with fun

source:

mine is having more sec hours than any other role, even in bagil and terry back in the day it was always the role most filled with statics
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:14 pm #571979

Sheodir wrote:source:

mine is having 1600 rounds played on bagil. many new players, especially since bagil started spending time on the hub, gravitate towards sec for the reasons i listed above.
the easiest fundamental of ss13 to learn is how to click on spacemen. given, being actually good at combat takes more time, but the general principle of 'click spaceman' is the easiest thing in the game to grasp next to basic movement. that's how a lot of people view security: you exist to find people who break the law, baton them, and put them in jail. it's familiar and immediately palatable, unlike other jobs which have actual mechanics unique to them.

recent rounds on highpop have had the most sec officers i've ever seen, and a vast, vast majority of them were names i didn't recognize. given, that in itself isn't damning, and it is certainly anecdotal, but i'd say i am pretty familiar with the regulars and their statics. even people who randomname have habits/gear that they tend to gravitate towards.

these sec officers though, are often guilty of things like not wearing sechuds, wearing the default armor vest, and using duffel bags. these are all things that new players definitely do more than seasoned players. now, that by itself is okay, people are allowed to be inexperienced. how else do you learn, right? my problem comes with the fact that these people are playing the only job on the station that, by design, requires you to meaningfully affect other peoples' rounds. that's what they are there for, their function by design.

the issue isn't that they're new. the issue is that they're the role that has the widest-reaching tendrils, and when they fuck up, it is almost always at the expense of somebody else. if a security officer does something flippantly retarded, you are not allowed to escalate conflict with them as you could a geneticist or an engineer or an assistant. they are basically immune to IC consequences unless they make an absolutely MASSIVE fuck-up, and even then, there is still the threat of the bwoink.

that's how you get such shockingly inexperienced players into major roles like warden or even HoS; they spend their rounds not learning anything because there's nothing there, admin or player, forcing them to get better at their jobs. once again this is a problem specifically with security because if any other role does an awful job/generally makes things worse for everybody, they're open to escalation. sec is not.
Image

User avatar
Agux909
 
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
Byond Username: Agux909

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:13 pm #571991

How is playing any of those roles as a noob more damning than playing, for example, as engi or atmos?

If you want to modify Warden's playtime requirements, then that's not the only role that will require an adjustement. Otherwise this whole reasoning is flawed.

There's more ways to fuck up the station and the players that being incompetent as sec.
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:53 pm #571998

Agux909 wrote:How is playing any of those roles as a noob more damning than playing, for example, as engi or atmos?

If you want to modify Warden's playtime requirements, then that's not the only role that will require an adjustement. Otherwise this whole reasoning is flawed.

There's more ways to fuck up the station and the players that being incompetent as sec.

read through my post again: security is immune to IC consequences in a way all the other roles are not.
the damage they can do isn't as widespread, and is usually focused on a few players, but they cannot answer for that damage. a 2 minute sentence turning into an 8 minute ordeal because the sec officer doesn't know how to process a prisoner, operate the UI, or work the timer is not okay.
some wardens and sec officers I have seen barely grasp how the game works at all. they're either loot pinatas or silent griefers who literally do not know they are griefing, and if you tell an admin about it, it's usually labeled an 'IC issue'. it can't be IC with sec, because the rules directly protect them.
Image

User avatar
pugie
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
Byond Username: Doctor Brutality

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby pugie » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:14 pm #572007

This is a game and sometimes people aren't very good at it everyone learns at a different pace and extra hours being required won't stop your deedubya brand panties getting in a twist tider.
john sex

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:41 pm #572010

pugie wrote:This is a game and sometimes people aren't very good at it everyone learns at a different pace and extra hours being required won't stop your deedubya brand panties getting in a twist tider.

what in the god damn
how did you manage to write this when clearly you do not know how to read
i'm not talking about getting brigged for breaking into cargo or the bridge, i'm talking about the warden, outside of brig on high pop in full riot gear 10 minutes into the shift, wanting to perma me for being seen near the beer nuke because he thought it was a real nuke. people with an utter lack of general game knowledge playing the role that is literally about stopping people from doing things.
Image

User avatar
NecromancerAnne
 
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:05 pm #572027

I would say round removing someone like that is a problem you should discuss with admins about. Someone will need to give them that talk.

User avatar
Agux909
 
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
Byond Username: Agux909

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Agux909 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:51 pm #572029

Hey Reman and what's your suggested solution here? You're again pointing out situations and specific cases you haven't been comfortable with, without giving a proper way to handle them.

OP gave immediately an actual reasonable (although naive) solution for it:
The Respected Man wrote:Atleast half the wardens I get are very inexperienced, don't even know how to properly process a prisoner inexperienced.

Just add 5 or 10 more hours as a sec officer to be a warden, that seems reasonable.


Which you then dismissed completely:
remanseptim wrote:define 'properly process'
oh yeah and hours don't matter. most shitsec are shitsec out of choice, see 90% of all HoS players.


Then you proceeded to rant without giving an alternative. What's your alternative?

By the way I am of the same opinion than increasing playtime hours won't do jack shit. People wanting to be shitsec will be shitsec with 1 hour or with 500.
You stole the item he cannot renew while your arts n crafts are theoretically unlimited, is it that hard to understand?

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:43 am #572033

Agux909 wrote:Hey Reman and what's your suggested solution here? You're again pointing out situations and specific cases you haven't been comfortable with, without giving a proper way to handle them.

Then you proceeded to rant without giving an alternative. What's your alternative?

By the way I am of the same opinion than increasing playtime hours won't do jack shit. People wanting to be shitsec will be shitsec with 1 hour or with 500.

that's a toughie. I'd like to see admins actually crack down on sec doing a bad job but 'hold sec to a higher standard of play' is a vague non-solution that will not go anywhere. i also sure as fuck don't want to see a whitelist to play the role most experienced players ware like the plague.
the most i can do is make my grievances known, so people are aware it is in fact a problem. once again, i reiterate here, this isn't my being salty over being nearly roundremoved; this is more me being utterly shocked at some sec players' complete lack of extremely basic game knowledge, and the fact that they're possessed of an ability to so negatively affect other players' rounds as a result of that lack of knowledge.
i think maybe some big, big red text saying 'security is a role with higher standards than the average joe, make absolutely sure you read the following' would be helpful. bigger than for any other job. hell, maybe even a blurb in the job select menu giving you a message like is on the wiki:

Image

though, I'm not sure if an edit to the role selection menu falls into coding or that's something that can be edited by admins themselves. just something to let people know sec is serious. note, i don't think discouraging new players from trying sec would turn them off of the game, or of ever trying the job itself. it'd just make them ideally think twice.

or maybe it would change nothing and John Greyman will spend another 6 consecutive 2 minute sentences bucklecuffed because Shitsec McRedshirt forgot his sentence was over. it's incredibly frustrating to witness, either w
Image

User avatar
NecromancerAnne
 
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Byond Username: NecromancerAnne

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:44 am #572037

I feel like someone who relentlessly bullied security so much they made a few quit playing the role all together shouldn't have an opinion on who should or shouldn't be playing security.

User avatar
remanseptim
 
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Byond Username: Remanseptim

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby remanseptim » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:31 am #572039

NecromancerAnne wrote:I feel like someone who relentlessly bullied security so much they made a few quit playing the role all together shouldn't have an opinion on who should or shouldn't be playing security.

i feel like histrionic shit stirrers should be confined to peanut threads, but we're forced to take your posts seriously.

security fulfills a role similar to antagonists or heads of staff in that they're vital to how the round progresses -- at least by design. at the very least, it should be assured that the people playing this vital role know how the game works at a fundamental level. even just mechanically.
the catch-22 here, and something many will agree with me on, is that a lot of experienced players don't touch sec with a ten foot pole. the only time that I see the really experienced players roll security is when they've witnessed shitsec on a monumental level. even then, they often treat that as a sacrifice; playing sec to some people is literally a sacrifice of their time.
as a result, you have an insular bubble of players with few external forces goading them to learn.

i'm still in favor of stating it in-game that new players shouldn't go with security. it already states it on the wiki, and while checking the forums is encouraged, we can't expect every new player to do that. i feel like this would just save everyone a lot of headaches. it'd hopefully make players be more comfortable with the game before hopping into the role that's about keeping the whole station from falling into abject chaos.

hell, as much as i hate bwoinkies, have the red text mention admins and consequences for being shitsec. it's not a friendly look, yeah, but it'll at least have people take trying to learn things seriously.
Image

cacogen
 
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby cacogen » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:26 am #572040

add another warden on high pop
i didn't read the thread
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby oranges » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:54 am #572048

why does anyone even bother responding to remanseptims absolute retarded bait posts?

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:01 am.
Reason: Shitpost

User avatar
Coconutwarrior97
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:14 am
Byond Username: Coconutwarrior97

Re: Increase hours needed to be a warden

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:58 pm #576691

During my time learning about this I have discovered the playtime requirement is coded for crew not even sec.

HoS requirements:

Image

Warden requirements:

Image

Which means you just need 5 hours played as any crew to unlock warden, this is very cool.


Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users