[LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

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Arcanemusic
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[LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Arcanemusic » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:41 am #576240

So, it seems like nobody fucking knows how antag rep works.
Before we all hop on our peanut posting podiums: Lets run down how it works in the code, right now.

Antag rep is a system that enables players to gain arbitrary points ("rep") as a result of playing a round, and when considerations are made on who will roll antagonist that round, reputation is applied at job selection.
Antag rep is obtained exclusively at the round-start logout report that admins get. For players, this happens at the 10 minute mark. If a player is dead, AFK, or suicides before that point, no antag rep is gained for that round. There are very, very few cases on a regular round where someone will be dead by that point in time unintentionally, unless they're
A: Baiting the crew into murdering them.
B: Extremely unlucky due to an early-round antagonist.
C: Suiciding round-start.
Outside of B, which is just random chance, for the most part, if your goal was to play that shift, you will gain antag rep for most every round you play on.
Antag rep is defined on a per-job basis, however as far as I've seen, we don't alter it on our config, so the only job that receives different antagonist rep than any other job is just assistants, who make 7 points as opposed to 10. unlike every other job.
Where it comes into play, specifically, is that on job-selection, and as explained by the code, your antag rep is applied like a lottery ticket. Each point is one more ticket in your name, and when you are rolling for a specific antagonist type, your tickets compete against all other players tickets in the same category. Then, if you win the lottery and roll that antagonist, your antag rep resets back to zero.

One of the benefits of antag rep is that you en encouraged to only enable antagonists you enjoy playing, as opposed to enabling all possible antagonists in order to get a chance to play as some kind of antagonist, solo, team, or otherwise. If you don't particularly enjoy playing traitor and changeling, but intimately enjoy playing wizard and malf-AI, this would enable you to play only the antagonist types you like, without having to get stuck with an antagonist that you don't enjoy playing as.

Arguments to made against Antag rep include: It only means that players who play more will be an antagonist more! This is true. Counterpoint, if you're playing round after round after round to try and roll an antagonist anyway, you will wind up playing more antagonist regardless due to being given more chances to play the game. Conversely, the number of times that you'll roll antagonist is proportional to the amount of rounds that you play in still, so your average number of traitor rounds compared to a purely random setup will be consistent. Fair odds feel fair when they feel consistent, where pure randomness has a chance to completely fuck you over as many times as Jesus sees fit.

Another argument: Players will play for the first 10 minutes of a round, go AFK, and then come back later when the next round starts to antag roll! Antag rolling is already explicitly against the rules. Admins finding a player going and doing that round after round consistently can be noted or watch-listed, and it falls on an existing administrative issue. Players going and suiciding shift start for not rolling antag are already punished in such a manner, and as players would be doing this would be playing non-assistant roles, it's far more obvious when people are doing as such.

This is currently disabled by config, which is why I'm throwing it here, and I'm interested in seeing if there's interest to bring it back on live servers.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby TheMidnghtRose » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:48 am #576241

If you don't particularly enjoy playing traitor and changeling, but intimately enjoy playing wizard and malf-AI, this would enable you to play only the antagonist types you like, without having to get stuck with an antagonist that you don't enjoy playing as.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But the Malf AI toggle doesnt work. Malf AI is actually traitor. I know this only because of a player who didnt want to be Malf AI, requested the ban from Malf AI. Immediately rolled Malf AI the next round. They had traitor enabled.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby carshalash » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:52 am #576247

TheMidnghtRose wrote:
If you don't particularly enjoy playing traitor and changeling, but intimately enjoy playing wizard and malf-AI, this would enable you to play only the antagonist types you like, without having to get stuck with an antagonist that you don't enjoy playing as.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But the Malf AI toggle doesnt work. Malf AI is actually traitor. I know this only because of a player who didnt want to be Malf AI, requested the ban from Malf AI. Immediately rolled Malf AI the next round. They had traitor enabled.


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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:08 am #576258

why was it removed on the first place

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Agux909 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:54 pm #576270

This seems like a more rewarding and consistent way to roll antag. It also means you could theoretically force-roll it once if you really want to be one, since you can disable all antags and play multiple rounds to get a high ticket count, which means you'll have a higher chance of rolling your favourite antag when you enable it for the next round.

I personally feel RNG can often be frustrating for someone that enjoys playing antag more, since they can potentially not roll it for 30 rounds, or for someone that likes having a lil chance to roll it from time to time, but does so every other round.

Completely in favour of enabling this system.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Space Panda » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:03 pm #576271

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:why was it removed on the first place

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Mickyan » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:03 pm #576276

I think antag rep is a great system and I firmly believe that the decision of disabling it was caused by headmins blindly listening to people who did not understand how the system works in the first place

There were also some good ideas thrown around to change the config values to make it more fair that were never attempted, such as this viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19448
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Cobby » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:36 pm #576280

I think people forget that it resets when u win the roll so a person playing 1/week for 5 weeks will have the same chance as the lexia black so long as lexia just won the antag roll 5 rounds ago.

I'm for it just to be a tool we can use either through manual manipulation (antag tokens can be changed to just increased antag roll for more minor instances) or as a way for the admin side to promote job usage (heads/sec bonus rep?).
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby RaveRadbury » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:31 pm #576292

I heard that there were issues with the math not being satisfying in some way or another, does antag rep need a refactor in that regard?
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby zxaber » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:45 pm #576295

Arcanemusic wrote: If a player is dead, AFK, or suicides before that point, no antag rep is gained for that round. There are very, very few cases on a regular round where someone will be dead by that point in time unintentionally, unless they're
A: Baiting the crew into murdering them.
B: Extremely unlucky due to an early-round antagonist.
C: Suiciding round-start.
Outside of B, which is just random chance, for the most part, if your goal was to play that shift, you will gain antag rep for most every round you play on.


How is this checked, exactly? Is it just "if(!client.mob.stat == DEAD)" ?
People getting borged are momentarily dead too. I guess the solution is to just bum around until the ten minute mark to cash in your rep and then go get borged, but that seems kinda lame.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby ATHATH » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:20 pm #576310

IIRC, people who latejoin will also get antag rep, provided that they don't somehow die or go SSD before the 10 minute mark. Thus, if you latejoin and immediately go SSD, you'll still get your antag rep when the round ends, if I'm remembering right.

I had researched the antag rep mechanics a whole bunch a few months ago to dispel some rumors about them on Fulp, but now I'm a bit rusty. I could try to dig up my old posts on the system if you'd like me to, though.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby oranges » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:50 am #576336

Space Panda wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:why was it removed on the first place

The system lacks logging, and debugging, so it was hard to check if it was working fairly, and most people quickly built up substantial reps up to the cap.

No data was ever produced to indicate it was affecting the distribution of who got antag, or having any real effect, so it was turned off.

I suggest if you're thinking about re-enabling it you spend time making it understandable and have a clear log of how it's affecting the voting so developers can see at a glance what is affected.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Screemonster » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:14 am #576354

If someone got antag and their rep got reset to zero on a round where admins facerolled then how would it affect things like the recent complaint oranges got for running a highlander round and someone rolled traitor during it since if rep was turned on they would actually be losing something

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:34 am #576361

Screemonster wrote:If someone got antag and their rep got reset to zero on a round where admins facerolled then how would it affect things like the recent complaint oranges got for running a highlander round and someone rolled traitor during it since if rep was turned on they would actually be losing something


rule 10, trashbin dumb complaint and antag rep should only affected by natural rolls ( no admin botton antags)

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby skoglol » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 am #576363

Antag rep was enabled when I started playing, then was disabled in the autumn headmin term of 2018. At the time, from what I could gather, we were running custom config settings for it. From memory and with a grain of salt as I never saw the config myself, the max cap of stored rep was increased (200 or 400?) and only up to 100 tickets were removed upon antag roll. The max amount of tickets used in a roll was default. This would mean that players could store several rolls.

Antag rep is at the heart a very fair system of distributing antag. You play a lot, you get a lot of antag. The problem I have with it is that ss13 isnt a very fair game. Ignoring admin shenanigans, there are lots of ways you can get utterly fucked out of a round, antag or not, that you have zero control over. Knowing that you had also then spent 10 rounds worth of antag rep for that traitor roll made losing to dumb unfair shit feel real fucking bad. Antag also isn't just antag, there is a distinction between low pop and high pop antag for instance. A lot of people who play early/late rounds already tend to get a heavier amount of antag rolls at lower pop as the ratios get a bit skewed, and losing all your rep to a mediocre low pop antag roll would also be very sad.

Worthy of note is that the rep change is saved once a round ends, so your rep would be unaffected by server crashes and the like. This is good for people who spent it, bad for people who played crew.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby confused rock » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:31 pm #576369

if you play a lot you get a lot of antag regardless, only way it differs is if you suicide roundstart (which is cringe regardless)
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby skoglol » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:54 pm #576371

Antag rep tries to balance antag rolls short term, makes it so people who havent rolled for a bit have a higher chance of rolling. That might be some inactive guy who has played 10 rounds over the last month who hasnt rolled antag yet, or someone who has played 10 rounds today without antag. They would both roll at the same increased chance. The current system is just as fair, since its completely random and you will still have the same kind of roundstart antag percentage as anyone else given enough rounds played with antags turned on.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby RaveRadbury » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:22 pm #576372

If we're looking at fiddling with antag roll before trying it again, it might be worth having an easy toggle/opt-in so you can decide when you want to make use of your roll. Then the people who opt-in are roll against each other for antag that round. Yeah I get that we already have antag configs, but those are more for what kind of antag you'd like, not whether or not you want to antag this round.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:17 pm #576376

RaveRadbury wrote:If we're looking at fiddling with antag roll before trying it again, it might be worth having an easy toggle/opt-in so you can decide when you want to make use of your roll. Then the people who opt-in are roll against each other for antag that round. Yeah I get that we already have antag configs, but those are more for what kind of antag you'd like, not whether or not you want to antag this round.


if you turn off antag before round you opt-out

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby MrStonedOne » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:29 pm #576381

One modification I want to make, is make it so spends are only stored at round end.

So if the server crashes on your antag round, you still have all of your queue points.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby BrianBackslide » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:10 pm #576393

Antag rep would sure be nice for the people who can only get one or two rounds a night. (or less) Better than going weeks without an antag round at all, that's for sure.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby skoglol » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:07 pm #576418

MrStonedOne wrote:One modification I want to make, is make it so spends are only stored at round end.

So if the server crashes on your antag round, you still have all of your queue points.


Already the case, antag rep change saves on round end.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:13 pm #576421

BrianBackslide wrote:Antag rep would sure be nice for the people who can only get one or two rounds a night. (or less) Better than going weeks without an antag round at all, that's for sure.

I’d think rng would be better for that.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Mickyan » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:40 pm #576425

skoglol wrote:Antag rep is at the heart a very fair system of distributing antag. You play a lot, you get a lot of antag. The problem I have with it is that ss13 isnt a very fair game. Ignoring admin shenanigans, there are lots of ways you can get utterly fucked out of a round, antag or not, that you have zero control over. Knowing that you had also then spent 10 rounds worth of antag rep for that traitor roll made losing to dumb unfair shit feel real fucking bad.

Having your round ruined will always be frustrating but it's less frustrating if you have the statistical certainty that it won't be the last time you get a roll for the next six months just because you're unlucky
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Critawakets » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:56 pm #576428

a better system would be to make the ticket gain dependant on how much time you spent living in a round, instead of just a flat bonus every round at 10 minutes. It stops antag rolling, doesnt ignore round length and help against issues such as temporary death.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby BrianBackslide » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:27 am #576435

wesoda25 wrote:I’d think rng would be better for that.


Statistically, sure. But I'm not always getting my one round as a full round. It might be a late join that I then decide I don't have enough time to stay for a fresh round after. (I have to get up at 4am for wagies)
At the very least, I know that I'm getting something toward an antag round. Perhaps there could be antag rep drawings, but also one rng selected player to be antag at no cost to rep at the same time? That would help alleviate people who don't get to play often as well as people who got "screwed" out of their antag round.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:07 am #576494

Critawakets wrote:a better system would be to make the ticket gain dependant on how much time you spent living in a round, instead of just a flat bonus every round at 10 minutes. It stops antag rolling, doesnt ignore round length and help against issues such as temporary death.

An assistant tabling you even after ten minutes pass = bro, my k/d ratio! bro, stop ruining it! i will never forgive you for this!!!

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Arcanemusic » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:41 am #576621

Critawakets wrote:a better system would be to make the ticket gain dependant on how much time you spent living in a round, instead of just a flat bonus every round at 10 minutes. It stops antag rolling, doesnt ignore round length and help against issues such as temporary death.

This could be factored in somewhat, but time spent alive =/= impact made on the round. You could spend the whole shift wall off in maintenance playing an arcade game and get the same amount of rep credit by that metric as slogging through a half-dozen antagonist threats in the brig. Participation in the round should be inclusive if at all possible, but provide an equal reward to keep the system fair, since at the end of the day it's still reliant on random chance, even if it's weighted.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Farquaar » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:48 pm #576677

Arcanemusic wrote:This could be factored in somewhat, but time spent alive =/= impact made on the round. You could spend the whole shift wall off in maintenance playing an arcade game and get the same amount of rep credit by that metric as slogging through a half-dozen antagonist threats in the brig. Participation in the round should be inclusive if at all possible, but provide an equal reward to keep the system fair, since at the end of the day it's still reliant on random chance, even if it's weighted.

This is very true. Sometimes my biggest contribution to the round is being the first one to get murdered. My death instantly raises the stakes and makes everyone else's round more memorable, even though I'm technically no longer participating.

However, one could argue that by making antag rep a function of survival, it provides an incentive for players to pursue self-preservation. Virtue may be its own reward, but the coward who flees to live another day gets the antag rep. Lifeweb, if I recall correctly, uses round-persistent incentives for players to avoid death and torture.

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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby MrStonedOne » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:49 pm #576685

skoglol wrote:
MrStonedOne wrote:One modification I want to make, is make it so spends are only stored at round end.

So if the server crashes on your antag round, you still have all of your queue points.


Already the case, antag rep change saves on round end.


I would want antag gains to save at the 10minute mark, and antag losses to save at round end, but thats close enough.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:28 pm #576686

If antag rep gains are added before round end, I don’t think it should be at some sort of definite time to give people a time frame before suiciding. There should be a certain degree of unpredictability to it.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby saprasam » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:58 am #576707

i dont see a problem with keeping it as it is
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:03 pm #576736

I hated the idea of antag rep last time for reasons I can't remember

Now it sounds like a good idea, I do like the idea of a reward for self-preservation to counter-act antag rolling directly and mechanically
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby nianjiilical » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:51 pm #576740

as someone who vastly prefers playing weird antags like wizard/revenant over traitor/changeling, this sounds good on paper but i also wasnt around for the last time it was enabled

it sounds worth a try if nothing else
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby Cobby » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:24 pm #576753

No point in balancing the system around bad-faith individuals who are going to afk in the corner of the room, it would be saner to focus on logging for these instances so admins can determine what is good/bad faith for more sketchy situations rather than try to quantify it enough that code can be your admin.
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Re: [LRP & MRP] Bring Back Antag Rep: Arcane Explains it all

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:34 pm #576755

What if it was merged with the job exp system.

Meaning you get a ticket for every 10 minutes you were alive in a round while not afk.
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Jack7D1 wrote:After reviewing the history of our previous host(s) I conclude that MSO is our most favorable host to date. To remove him would be very unwise.
Jack7D1 wrote:I seem to be mistaken


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