(MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

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(MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by spookuni » #635242

I made a thread about this last headmin term and never received a strict answer as it faded into autolock territory, and current experience makes me believe it's still a point worth pursuing so here we go again.

I believe it would be overall beneficial for the MRP servers at least for the station heads of staff roles to be protected (I.E incompatible with rolling any antagonists except obsessed). Mothblocks likes to remind me that many things beneficial to MRP also apply to LRP, but I'm not confident enough to say that for sure here, and in fact I personally disagree that it would be good for LRP servers the way I believe it would be good for MRP. So for LRP I'll leave it to others to decide if my points apply to all servers or just the Manuel and Campbell.

1. Heads of staff as antagonists tend towards much simpler and less interesting styles of antag play - Heads of staff are empowered with significantly increased access to both station locations and equipment from roundstart, as well as a greatly increased degree of soft power in terms of their authority under the chain of command. This leads towards heads of staff antagonists having a significantly easier time completing their objectives by simply ignoring interaction with the rest of the round in favour of quickly and easily acquiring completed objectives to even further empower themselves.

2. The MRP rules attempt to bolster the oftentimes questionable authority of the heads of staff, with an aim towards improving immersion and having the chain of command carry some IC meaning beyond "big doctor/scientist/engineer with more stuff". The existence of heads of staff antagonists undermines this intent - it's oftentimes very hard to stay in your lane and trust your boss when there's a decent chance they're out to sabotage the station, murder you or steal from you or others. Telling your boss to shove off because they're incompetent is a sacred right, but less conflict between OOC metaknowledge and the IC starting expectation that you want to keep your job would be nice.

3. Acting captain antagonists are terrible to play with, and there exists no current mechanism to dynamically protect head roles based on their position in the captain hierarchy when rounds lack a captain and auto promote a head. This has been the case for as long as I've been playing at least, but has become a significantly greater issue with the advent of the autopromotion announcement often making antagonists into round acknowledged "basically the captain". In the absence of any current method to stop that from happening, and for the other reasons above, I believe it would be an overall benefit to protect head roles and exclude them from antagonists on MRP.

Since I've seen this argument float around before and a couple of counterarguments have already been made, I'll include some pre-rebuttal to the more common counterarguments I see.

Paranoia is an important part of the game and adding more roles to the protected list harms this pillar

In my experience, there is a finite amount of paranoia you can cram into a round before people begin to simply automatically exclude trusting others as a workable option and choose to simply prepare themselves to be able to meet every possible challenge solo as no one else can ever be trusted. That kind of gameplay style runs directly counter to the interaction focused experience we aim for on MRP (to varying degrees of success, sadly), and as such I do not believe that cutting down on this particular source of personal paranoia would be a net negative for the game as a whole, especially given the increased story value of having personal pillars exist to be torn down - rounds where individual heads of staff are trustworthy and competent and then are suddenly disappeared by enemies of the corporation are already potent story generators, shifting increased value onto the chain of command thus further enhances RPR 3 by making heads of staff an increasingly inherently worthwhile target for traitors and other antagonists looking to disrupt the station.

It's hard enough to get people to play heads of staff already why would you want to disincentivise their play further by limiting antag opportunities?

Roundstart job rolling is done in a tiered system where higher priority rolls complete first and after they are assigned lower priority rolls take place. Currently to the best of my knowledge this system rolls Antagonists -> Heads of Staff -> Normal Jobs. As such if head roles were added to the protected list their players would not disadvantage themselves when it comes to standard rolls for antagonist - If they rolled an antag they'd be shunted off to another role other than a head, they would not lose the antag roll.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635245

I'm inclined to agree with this. I've had an Acting Captain Antag round while I was trying to bartend. Now, I like doing a thing where I keep my vest, bandolier and shotgun on the table behind me, because it seems a lot more professional than your bartender just being heavily armed.

Captain walks in and demands my shotgun, grabs it while I'm trying to tell him "no, I want to keep my shotgun". He gave me an e-gun which I went to try and use to retrieve my stolen property. Security detains me. It's a whole big thing; apparently he had an objective to destroy it, but because he was the Captain, he didn't have to put any effort into it at all. He was just allowed to demand it, and that made it his by divine right.

Had another round recently, where we had an Acting Captain bloodbrothers. They straight up admitted to killing and cremating a dude, but noone did anything about it because "Well he's the Captain".

While I'm unsure on the opinion about it being for all head roles (There are good parts to it, but also being able to basically get objectives done for free because of their Authority is kinda lameshit), if it's the only way to make it so that Acting Captains can't? I'm all for it.

(Though personally I'd suggest making it so that it only applies to Traitor, and maaaaaaybe BB. Heretic or any of the team antags and the like should be fine, imo.)
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Cartographer-D » #635247

My thoughts irrespective of how the talking points here are numbered:

1. We don't need more people playing psuedo-security. Being role protected opens a can of worms on what responsibilities are and how they're managed. Being role protected and responsible for keeping the station together as a head on a medium roleplay server means players basically have to take on this role
2. We should be solving this idea of better head interaction through enforcement and better standards on playtime for heads - we just installed a rule 12, why not use it? We could also solve this by lowering antag chance for heads. (Does this mean some people will deliberately turn off head to roll antag? Sure. Who cares? Anybody who's just playing for antag on the MRP server is someone we probably don't want to be a head anyways).
3. I think being able to potentially convince your boss or ALLY with your boss and risk getting outed is way cooler than having to avoid your boss and stick it to em. Also cooler to rebel against your boss when they're clearly a bad guy.
4. This wouldn't protect them from conversion, which makes things even WORSE when it comes to navigating escalation or how to handle situations as players, especially when I already hear all the time (IM CAPTAIN YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO ME SEC OFFICER!?!?!?!?!!!!) The meta-understandings already bleed in so players don't get bwoinked for retaliating against something dumb someone's ordering them to do.
5. And speaking of, if there's a problem with acting captains being treated as traitors, there should be better guidance on the wiki, especially under security, for how to handle those situations. I as a veteran know security supercede's the captain (and of course acting captain) on security matters but most players won't.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Farquaar » #635248

Previous Thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29056
Not sure why you didn't link it in the OP tbh. The arguments in there are just as valid now as they were back then. I think Samuel Hayden put it best, from a gaemplay perspective:
Samuel Hayden wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:00 pm I am very against making head of staff protected roles.

The increased access and authority gives the traitor more avenues for traitoring, instead of just "hehe ebow esword funneh". I have seen traitors head of staff pull gimmicks in Manuel, or even just feats that would be ignored/impossible without the authority that comes with the role.
I have seen convicted traitors caught red-handed go free because the RD was very charismatic and convinced the HoS to offer parole.
While, yes, Heads as traitors have increased power when compared to normal staff, their power is not so different that it makes dealing with them impossible, only harder.
A traitor HoP forces the Sec Player to be more aware, as they could be anywhere, and access to guns is easy with their access-changing capabilities.
A traitor RD is tricky for they have all of science AND the tele vest, or whichever other vest they made, plus toxins, if they know how.

To summarize: While I understand that "traitor Heads have unprecedented power and lore-y they shouldn't be able to be indoctrinated" (Heads probably go through more scrutiny NT wise, like the captain and HoS), making them protected roles just takes away a reasonable portion of the chaos, options and possibilities of a round. Where the gameplay is concerned, the game is less without Traitor Heads.
TL;DR Head role antags are fun to play, increase paranoia, and force people to stay on their toes. So many fun stories could never have happened if they were protected roles. Personally, traitor CE is incredibly fun and I would be very sad if it was gone forever.
Last edited by Farquaar on Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by spookuni » #635250

Cartographer-D wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:14 am My thoughts irrespective of how the talking points here are numbered:

1. We don't need more people playing psuedo-security. Being role protected opens a can of worms on what responsibilities are and how they're managed. Being role protected and responsible for keeping the station together as a head on a medium roleplay server means players basically have to take on this role
2. We should be solving this idea of better head interaction through enforcement and better standards on playtime for heads - we just installed a rule 12, why not use it? We could also solve this by lowering antag chance for heads. (Does this mean some people will deliberately turn off head to roll antag? Sure. Who cares? Anybody who's just playing for antag on the MRP server is someone we probably don't want to be a head anyways).
3. I think being able to potentially convince your boss or ALLY with your boss and risk getting outed is way cooler than having to avoid your boss and stick it to em. Also cooler to rebel against your boss when they're clearly a bad guy.
4. This wouldn't protect them from conversion, which makes things even WORSE when it comes to navigating escalation or how to handle situations as players, especially when I already hear all the time (IM CAPTAIN YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO ME SEC OFFICER!?!?!?!?!!!!) The meta-understandings already bleed in so players don't get bwoinked for retaliating against something dumb someone's ordering them to do.
5. And speaking of, if there's a problem with acting captains being treated as traitors, there should be better guidance on the wiki, especially under security, for how to handle those situations. I as a veteran know security supercede's the captain (and of course acting captain) on security matters but most players won't.
While I can't deny that there will always be people who exploit metaknowledge, I would like to stress that my proposal does not include increased OOC enforced metaprotections above and beyond the already extant protection for legitimate demotions. Head roles would not be further empowered to act as pseudo-security or validhunt just because their potential for antag status was taken away, and would otherwise be fully allowed to be as incompetent and useless non-maliciously as they've always been. It would be the domain of an entirely different policy thread to seek to change that.

To use your example from point 3. You could still fully attempt to bribe, cajole or mislead your head of staff, they can't be an antagonist, but they're not security and are under no obligation to act like it, nor protection if they act like it to the point of infringing on RPR 10.

Otherwise I largely agree with your point 2. But it's somewhat out of scope - I'd love to have higher standards for head of staff play in general but every time I've seen it raised previously it's been shot down with counterarguments about filling the roles at all and how hard that is.
Farquaar wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:18 am Previous Thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29056
Not sure why you didn't link it in the OP tbh. The arguments in there are just as valid now as they were back then. I think Samuel Hayden put it best, from a gaemplay perspective:
Mostly because I forgot, thanks for linking it.

I personally disagree that the downsides of protected heads are worth the upsides of marginally easier ability to perform gimmicks that I rarely see personally, but thank you for contributing. While I believe the change would be good for the MRP servers, I would rather be outvoted now than have my change implemented with majority disapproval.
Last edited by spookuni on Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by NecromancerAnne » #635254

Cartographer-D wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:14 am ~words~
1. Heads are pseudo-security. They have metaprotections within their department for removing and dealing with people breaking in or causing problems.

2. Lowering chances is a half measure that doesn't really do much. It's weird to disproportionately disfavor antag chances for a role when really it would be better to simply let not let that role play amtag at all. Additionally, this isn't an enforcement problem. Nobody is playing heads poorly as antag, they're just...antags. in a position of power. It is inherently stacked in their favour. Extra rules for head antag is just more complications to solve a simple problem.

3. This is entirely possible already without the scope of antagonism at play. This is what conflicts...can just be.

4. They already mostly are protected short of cult. And if they can't be cult, no big loss. Cultists dont truly lose potential converts.

5. See 2. No need to make this more complicated than necessary with needlessly overspecific policy. This is how we ended up with sec and silicon policy and mostly turns into player pitfalls.

My own personal stance is simple: head antags are disproportionately favoured and typically undermine the command structure, while also being potentially easy mode for some antag objectives. It makes the actual position entirely meaningless in some ways. Without some trust in them, while also having some metaprotections granted to them, theyre in a very awkward rules spot.

If people use protected status to validhunt they are already straying out of their lane and can be handled.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Drag » #635257

Farquaar has basically parroted my thoughts on the issue. Play lame win game effects all roles, not just head of staff roles.

Edit: I see a potential solution by raising the hours required to play head of staff in a department, I'm not at all favorable to giving up my ability to play antagonist due to command roles being my highest play time. Being an antagonist during a revolution as a head of staff is very fun.
Last edited by Drag on Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (MRP) Making heads roles protected attempt 2

Post by Cheshify » #635258

I think this is honestly a great way forward. MRP has this weird conflict between Roleplay Rule 3 and the actual game mechanics, wherein you should be respecting and trusting your department heads, but due to the prevalence of head-antag rollers you can't really do that. I've put it this way a few times in discussion but Head Antags invalidate Roleplay Rule 3 simply because it does make the round less enjoyable when you know the person you should be trusting to lead you is possibly also out to kill you.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Cobby » #635262

This is exactly why I don’t want anymore roles to be protected.

The CMO can still be an antag, it just can’t be the true/starting CMO.

It runs into the issue of meta protections on the other extreme where any antag who larps as a head gets an instant i win because the gamers blindly trust them since “they can’t be antag”. That alone also gives practically every antag an excuse to kill them which I think would actually discourage head play in general once the reality of the change sets in

Specific to MrP, you should be following them because they are your boss and you are in a role playing game. If they are making suspicious moves be it antag-like or incompetent, you should react as such. That’s not failrp, quite the opposite in fact. If you think someone less qualified than you getting head role is failrp then I want whatever career you’re in and what education I need.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by iwishforducks » #635329

I’ve been in favor of heads not being antags ever since I first played LRP. But with Biddle Traitors, I fully support barring heads from being traitors. Acting Captain antagonists are so brutally exhausting due to captain metaprotections. Having a captain that has zero interest in leading or helping the station makes the round measurably worse. There’s no setup of “order” to be knocked down. It’s chaos and only chaos- and to me that doesn’t make an interesting round. This can be applied to head antagonists but with Captain being protected from being an antag, heads can (sometimes) be whipped into shape by the captain.

If at all possible, I think acting captains should be protected from being antag. But the best case scenario, in my humble opinion, is to bar heads from being antag all together. Heads that are antag don’t interact with their department but rather just go fuck off and do their own shit. It’s overall a net loss for the round for a head to be antag.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Drag » #635336

If the headmins are interested in taking away antagonist rolling from heads of staff I agree with iwishforducks that only traitor should be removed, this game is built on paranoia and the lack of an ability to legitimately trust people beyond security and the captain. Removing this from heads of staff only takes away from the game rather than add to it.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Mothblocks » #635342

FWIW, if the only reason to disable heads of staff from being antag was acting captains, I would absolutely deny it considering we can just solve that problem.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Sylphet » #635345

Do it please. Head of staff antags are terrible for the round.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by sinfulbliss » #635355

Acting cap tot is the main issue because they have AA and, it makes no sense that the captain of your station would also be a traitor to the station.

It’s also way too common for the captain to be an acting cap over a roundstart cap, which makes cap tot even more common. But I’m not sure how you fix this. If you prevent acting cap from being traitor then it could be easily metagamed, right? I.e., the CE should’ve been promoted to acting cap and wasn’t, that must mean he’s a traitor.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #635357

Said before, but acting cap antag sucks a lot. Maybe a problem with our acting captain system rather than heads being traitors.

In the more general sense, having the option of heads being traitors opens up a lot more possibilities for antagonism and storytelling. I would be against this change, but open to discussing one that locks acting cap out of antag.
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Re: (MRP) Making heads roles protected attempt 2

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #635360

Cheshify wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:50 am I think this is honestly a great way forward. MRP has this weird conflict between Roleplay Rule 3 and the actual game mechanics, wherein you should be respecting and trusting your department heads, but due to the prevalence of head-antag rollers you can't really do that. I've put it this way a few times in discussion but Head Antags invalidate Roleplay Rule 3 simply because it does make the round less enjoyable when you know the person you should be trusting to lead you is possibly also out to kill you.
If you think your boss is trying to murder you, the "roleplay" course of action probably involves doing something about it. Use your judgment, roleplay rules are best used as guidelines for the standard operation of your character rather than a code of honor.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Drag » #635380

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:21 pm Acting cap tot is the main issue because they have AA and, it makes no sense that the captain of your station would also be a traitor to the station.

It’s also way too common for the captain to be an acting cap over a roundstart cap, which makes cap tot even more common. But I’m not sure how you fix this. If you prevent acting cap from being traitor then it could be easily metagamed, right? I.e., the CE should’ve been promoted to acting cap and wasn’t, that must mean he’s a traitor.
What if acting captain was completely random every time roundstart while also excluding the traitor head of staff unless they were absolutely the only head of staff?
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by sinfulbliss » #635431

Drag wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:37 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:21 pm Acting cap tot is the main issue because they have AA and, it makes no sense that the captain of your station would also be a traitor to the station.

It’s also way too common for the captain to be an acting cap over a roundstart cap, which makes cap tot even more common. But I’m not sure how you fix this. If you prevent acting cap from being traitor then it could be easily metagamed, right? I.e., the CE should’ve been promoted to acting cap and wasn’t, that must mean he’s a traitor.
What if acting captain was completely random every time roundstart while also excluding the traitor head of staff unless they were absolutely the only head of staff?
I imagine you’d have to do something like this to fix it, yeah. That’s a very imperfect solution though - it undermines the chain of promotion (which was ordered in the way it is for a reason), and it also still allows acting cap tot with only one head of staff (very common on lowpop). Not to mention you’d end up with HoScap just as much as you would HoPcap, which... Although I bitched about it plenty, there’s a reason HoS is dead last on the promotion list - it ensures (at least in theory) there is someone the HoS has to answer to to prevent overzealous sec.

I think risking it being metagamed is probably a better solution honestly. I really doubt players will know the chain of promotion well enough to metagame it, and keep track of which heads arrived when. On the offchance you have a super detective that’s done all this - maybe that’s the added risk you take in exchange for tot with AA and full control of the station.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635446

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:06 am I think risking it being metagamed is probably a better solution honestly. I really doubt players will know the chain of promotion well enough to metagame it, and keep track of which heads arrived when. On the offchance you have a super detective that’s done all this - maybe that’s the added risk you take in exchange for tot with AA and full control of the station.
I mean that'd just fall under Rule 12, if not just straight up the No Metagaming rule.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by bastardblaster » #635448

metaknowledge of "this guy can't be an antag cause he's a head" is bad. hell, steal a mindshield implant, get sec gear, and act like an antag, and see how much you get away with. hint, a fucking lot. we should not try to exacerbate it.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635461

ardentarclight wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:55 am metaknowledge of "this guy can't be an antag cause he's a head" is bad. hell, steal a mindshield implant, get sec gear, and act like an antag, and see how much you get away with. hint, a fucking lot. we should not try to exacerbate it.
What you described just there is the balancing factor, though. Kill and replace the Head. Impersonate them. If people lean into the metaknowledge, then others will start to take advantage of it.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists empt 2

Post by Helios » #635468

RD, HoP and CE should be possible traitors.
HoS and Cap should be thoroughly vetted, background checked, and not get antag.
And Detective is a loose cannon, so even if he's implanted he should have a chance of getting antag.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by sinfulbliss » #635565

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:32 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:06 am I think risking it being metagamed is probably a better solution honestly. I really doubt players will know the chain of promotion well enough to metagame it, and keep track of which heads arrived when. On the offchance you have a super detective that’s done all this - maybe that’s the added risk you take in exchange for tot with AA and full control of the station.
I mean that'd just fall under Rule 12, if not just straight up the No Metagaming rule.
We're getting into a pretty technical tangent based on a hypothetical idea that probably won't even be considered, but: that has absolutely nothing to do with rule 12, and it'd be a stretch at best to call it metagaming. The most you could do to make this enforceable is an explicit headmin ruling stating it's disallowed, like ling brain checks (although most players still aren't even aware this is disallowed). But again, there is a 0-sum chance this becomes an actual problem in practice. To "metagame" it you'd have to: 1) memorize the chain of promotion, 2) join roundstart, 3) keep meticulous tabs on what heads exist, what heads join later, which of them has the spare, and whether they were even promoted by the game system or if they simply got it from another head. No one will ever do this.
ardentarclight wrote:metaknowledge of "this guy can't be an antag cause he's a head" is bad. hell, steal a mindshield implant, get sec gear, and act like an antag, and see how much you get away with. hint, a fucking lot. we should not try to exacerbate it.
If you prevent heads from being antag then obviously everyone will have metaknowledge they can't be an antag - no one is gonna pretend they can be an antag for the sake of RP (that would be insane). It's like how people know the chaplain can't be cult based off his role.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Stickymayhem » #635570

This is an awful idea that limits the possibility space for antagonist action.

Just because people don't tend to use something creatively doesn't mean we should further restrict the opportunity for creativity. I've had an extraordinary number of great rounds as an antagonistic head of staff. Building trust with your department and then leveraging it towards your antagonistic ends is rewarding, involves others and makes for more interesting situations.

Adding yet another level of metaprotection makes the game safer, more consistent and less interesting. Stop polishing the rough edges off SS13
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635574

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:44 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:32 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:06 am I think risking it being metagamed is probably a better solution honestly. I really doubt players will know the chain of promotion well enough to metagame it, and keep track of which heads arrived when. On the offchance you have a super detective that’s done all this - maybe that’s the added risk you take in exchange for tot with AA and full control of the station.
I mean that'd just fall under Rule 12, if not just straight up the No Metagaming rule.
We're getting into a pretty technical tangent based on a hypothetical idea that probably won't even be considered, but: that has absolutely nothing to do with rule 12, and it'd be a stretch at best to call it metagaming. The most you could do to make this enforceable is an explicit headmin ruling stating it's disallowed, like ling brain checks (although most players still aren't even aware this is disallowed). But again, there is a 0-sum chance this becomes an actual problem in practice. To "metagame" it you'd have to: 1) memorize the chain of promotion, 2) join roundstart, 3) keep meticulous tabs on what heads exist, what heads join later, which of them has the spare, and whether they were even promoted by the game system or if they simply got it from another head. No one will ever do this.
Exactly. Which means it's not a problem. And if it somehow DOES come up, then someone going "AHA! HEAD OF PERSONNEL YOU WEREN'T PROMOTED FIRST, THAT MEANS YOU MUST BE A SYNDICUNT!" that's metagaming/playing-to-win.

We're basically in agreement, here. I'm agreeing with you and saying why it wouldn't be a problem even if it did happen.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by sinfulbliss » #635575

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:16 am Exactly. Which means it's not a problem. And if it somehow DOES come up, then someone going "AHA! HEAD OF PERSONNEL YOU WEREN'T PROMOTED FIRST, THAT MEANS YOU MUST BE A SYNDICUNT!" that's metagaming/playing-to-win.

We're basically in agreement, here. I'm agreeing with you and saying why it wouldn't be a problem even if it did happen.
I disagree because deducing that someone is a traitor isn't "playing-to-win." It's probably not metagaming either, if you read rule 2 on metagaming it'd be hard to pin it under that. It'd have to be a specific ruling. I'm saying if it does come up (which it won't), it wouldn't be a problem not because the guy could get banned, but because acting cap tot deserves that tiny unrealized downside.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by thgvr » #635576

Definitely needs to go, in my opinion. I think the argument "Nobody will play heads if they can't play antag" is quite silly. I feel a lot of people at least in my experiences don't play head because nobody gives them time of day let alone respect.

Also, as per silicon policy:
If the person has a right to be in the upload, such as captain/RD, then you must let them in unless they've harmed people in the past or have announced intentions to upload harmful laws.
RD having specialized protections for accessing silicon uploads (sure you can print them, but that's obviously more suspicious) seems quite poor and perhaps a policy oversight.

Basically it's gotta go and I'd love to be able to play CMO or RD and actually have people listen to me without starting psuedo-revs when you try to demote them.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Stickymayhem » #635582

thgvr wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:32 am Definitely needs to go, in my opinion. I think the argument "Nobody will play heads if they can't play antag" is quite silly. I feel a lot of people at least in my experiences don't play head because nobody gives them time of day let alone respect.

Also, as per silicon policy:
If the person has a right to be in the upload, such as captain/RD, then you must let them in unless they've harmed people in the past or have announced intentions to upload harmful laws.
RD having specialized protections for accessing silicon uploads (sure you can print them, but that's obviously more suspicious) seems quite poor and perhaps a policy oversight.

Basically it's gotta go and I'd love to be able to play CMO or RD and actually have people listen to me without starting psuedo-revs when you try to demote them.
You already have metaprotections to conduct demotions and rogue silicons are not something we're explicitly trying to avoid? More opportunities for an AI to be dangerous means more opportunity for conflict beyond basic murderbone.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635613

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:29 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:16 am Exactly. Which means it's not a problem. And if it somehow DOES come up, then someone going "AHA! HEAD OF PERSONNEL YOU WEREN'T PROMOTED FIRST, THAT MEANS YOU MUST BE A SYNDICUNT!" that's metagaming/playing-to-win.

We're basically in agreement, here. I'm agreeing with you and saying why it wouldn't be a problem even if it did happen.
I disagree because deducing that someone is a traitor isn't "playing-to-win." It's probably not metagaming either, if you read rule 2 on metagaming it'd be hard to pin it under that. It'd have to be a specific ruling. I'm saying if it does come up (which it won't), it wouldn't be a problem not because the guy could get banned, but because acting cap tot deserves that tiny unrealized downside.
It is, however, if you are deducing it through non-canon information. If NT can tell that the HoP's a traitor and thus not promote them to Acting Captain, why would they even let them get through the filter in the first place? The entire deduction relies on information that isn't IC, and thus is metaknowledge.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by mstachife » #635614

Given how easy it is to print boards and subvert the AI I feel any argument about upload access asides from roundstart law changes is kinda moot. You literally need 5-10 seconds alone in the engy or sci lobby and a room to yourself. Most people seem to merely pretend the upload actually matters, which is about the only time there is any tension to it.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by oranges » #635640

If you're such good roleplayers then trusting someone you can't trust outside of the game should not be a problem.

If you get fucked over by it, just incorporate that into your round's rp instead of caring about winning or losing so much.

really have to wonder about the people who make threads like this and their playstyle.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #635652

Head of staff antags are fab because they stop sec and heads from being an ironclad unit. There's a pretty good chance in a round that at least one is some kind of bad guy, whether that be an evil cult or a petty thief, so sec are always scowling when one shows up outside of a revolution. The only valid argument against that is that it steps on the clown's toes by being more funny for the crew than him whenever some huge bitchfit emerges between prideful jerkish command staff and paranoiac baton-happy seccies.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Tearling » #635662

I think the game would be more fun if heads of staff couldn't be traitors.
It would also make more sense roleplay wise.
I also don't like being put in the position of knowing my department head is a traitor, but also knowing that reporting them to security would be more of a hassle than it's worth, because traitors aren't lethal 9 times out of 10 anymore.

So yeah, imo, please prevent head roles from rolling antagonist.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Archie700 » #635675

I disagree.

Heads of Staff, even in MRP, are not supposed to be the perfect all-knowing heads you completely trust to lead the station.

You are not supposed to suspect anyone unless you catch them doing suspicious stuff anyway, so why should heads be treated any differently?

In fact, a head basically abandoning their department should be put under more scrutiny than normal, because they're essentially throwing away their higher amount of responsibility.

The main issue is people putting too much trust in the command structure to the point that they THINK they can't retaliate against the bad command except with their own two hands.

Needing metaprotection to ensure heads can't be antags just leads to more restricted RP in general because now heads are completely trusted, which means the HoP is less likely to given Head of Staff jobs even when a head is sorely needed, AND now people are more likely to trust command even when it becomes a liability (brainwashed/culted heads, imposters, "promoted" heads).

Don't substitute policy for bad RP.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by thgvr » #635776

Archie700 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:53 am I disagree.

Heads of Staff, even in MRP, are not supposed to be the perfect all-knowing heads you completely trust to lead the station.

You are not supposed to suspect anyone unless you catch them doing suspicious stuff anyway, so why should heads be treated any differently?

In fact, a head basically abandoning their department should be put under more scrutiny than normal, because they're essentially throwing away their higher amount of responsibility.

The main issue is people putting too much trust in the command structure to the point that they THINK they can't retaliate against the bad command except with their own two hands.

Needing metaprotection to ensure heads can't be antags just leads to more restricted RP in general because now heads are completely trusted, which means the HoP is less likely to given Head of Staff jobs even when a head is sorely needed, AND now people are more likely to trust command even when it becomes a liability (brainwashed/culted heads, imposters, "promoted" heads).

Don't substitute policy for bad RP.
Bad RP? Have you played on Manuel? Have you SEEN a single head of staff antag player?
Most of the time if you retaliate against an antagonist head they just kill you with the tools available to them (baton, command comms, ai, etc) or scream over the radio that you're an evil traitor killing them.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Tearling » #635821

Archie700 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:53 am Don't substitute policy for bad RP.
You can't change how other people RP. You can change policy.
I could, if I wanted to, dismiss every rule and roleplay policy by simply saying "Don't substitute policy for bad RP" and claim that all MRP rules are irrelevant, because the real problem is bad RP, not policy/rules.

Edit:
Also yeah, I have to agree with thgvr here. If you call out an antag head there's a good chance your round is going down the drain.
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by legality » #635831

This is a horrible idea. Head of staff antags have the potential to create interesting conflicts and tell interesting stories that are normally out of the hands of regular crewmembers. If anything, I would roll it back to what it was in the best days of MRP /tg/: when I started in 2010, and up until partway through 2012 iirc, any role could be an antagonist, including security and the captain. Paranoia and conflict were at all time highs and we still managed to maintain a server culture much healthier than what we have today.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by wesoda25 » #635838

I think the setup of MRP and our other servers should be kept as similar as possible. 👎
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Archie700 » #635842

The general idea is that rule 10 of the main rules still applies even when you get killed by a traitor head.

There are ways to expose a traitor head that does not require you to directly attack them. You can report their actions to security directly through PDA or by going there and asking for help. Or you could report it to the AI. Of course sometimes you still lose if the situation is not in your favour, but that's the issue with antag in general. Rule 10 still exists in MRP and in the end you still can lose if things don't go your way.

Acting captain antag is a problem but the main issue is with the way people treat acting captain in general as "captain" and not "guy standing in for the captain". Those are VERY different definitions, and need to be treated differently, especially when the acting captain starts "confiscating" stuff or executing without explanation.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by sinfulbliss » #635857

Archie700 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:49 am Acting captain antag is a problem but the main issue is with the way people treat acting captain in general as "captain" and not "guy standing in for the captain". Those are VERY different definitions, and need to be treated differently, especially when the acting captain starts "confiscating" stuff or executing without explanation.
The guy standing in for the captain is effectively captain until one shows up (they don't always show up). Everybody knows acting captain can be a traitor and they're going to treat them like antags if they start doing antagonistic stuff - I don't think this is a player or RP issue. The issue acting cap tots bring up is that they can, essentially, do whatever they want with little to no risk. Stealing the hypospray is a pretty trivial task if you have all access. It removes a lot of the gameplay of being a traitor, apart from being very imbalanced.

The other issue is that you can speedrun mindshields and make yourself out to be the legitimate captain extremely trivially, and once that happens people view you as if you are the captain with metaprotections. It makes sense for players to not care about the legitimate captain confiscating things - he owns the station, he can pretty much do what he wants short of just being outwardly antagonistic. Even for lings and disguised traitors it's quite the project to infiltrate sec and mindshield yourself, then pose as an officer or captain with metaprotections. Even despite the effort of doing this people will stir a bit at the thought of antags tricking crew into thinking they have metaprotections. Now imagine it can be done effortlessly roundstart by the captain entrusted the station.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by datorangebottle » #635899

Acting captain antag is always toxic, no matter the RP level. On MRP, he's the captain and his word is law. On LRP, they generally have too much gear for the average player to do anything about them, between the antag items, captain's shit, and whatever they started with. I feel like restricting antagonism on more roles is a very Bad Idea, though. I already don't like that I can 99% trust that most security officers aren't antagonists, due to them not starting as antags and the rarity of promotion to sec.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by carshalash » #635915

datorangebottle wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:25 pm Acting captain antag is always toxic, no matter the RP level. On MRP, he's the captain and his word is law. On LRP, they generally have too much gear for the average player to do anything about them, between the antag items, captain's shit, and whatever they started with. I feel like restricting antagonism on more roles is a very Bad Idea, though. I already don't like that I can 99% trust that most security officers aren't antagonists, due to them not starting as antags and the rarity of promotion to sec.
Nah acting captains on manuel just gear up like on the LRP servers.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by BrianBackslide » #635924

Heads are fun for antags, both to play as or play against. A charismatic antag head can command enough authority to perform less-than-ethical experiments, gimmicks, or other tasks and has the leverage of their department to get away with it. And that's FUN. Having a department act differently, like Medbay charging for surgeries/medical aid/etc., Science holding research ransom, Engineering trying for a tesla/singulo, is functionally more interesting and a better driver of conflict that couldn't really be achieved by a non-head of the same department. Sure, non-antag heads can do the same, but they can't aggressively enforce it and would likely get bwoinked anyway.

I don't like the idea of more people having metaprotections. If the game is supposed to have a paranoia aspect, then I shouldn't breathe a sigh of relief when a head asks for me to be a part of an experiment, knowing full well that they won't likely put me in danger. I want to feel wary when the HoP walks into my department and starts milling about. I want to eye the CE with suspicion and wonder whether the supermatter is fine or if they're setting it up for a speedrun delam. I want to see the RD concoct some crazy-ass gamer mix of slime extracts and do something stupid.

tl;dr: Metaprotections bad, Acting Captains bad, I don't want to be able to trust anyone other than Security.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Farquaar » #635926

BrianBackslide wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:47 am Heads are fun for antags, both to play as or play against. A charismatic antag head can command enough authority to perform less-than-ethical experiments, gimmicks, or other tasks and has the leverage of their department to get away with it. And that's FUN. Having a department act differently, like Medbay charging for surgeries/medical aid/etc., Science holding research ransom, Engineering trying for a tesla/singulo, is functionally more interesting and a better driver of conflict that couldn't really be achieved by a non-head of the same department. Sure, non-antag heads can do the same, but they can't aggressively enforce it and would likely get bwoinked anyway.

I don't like the idea of more people having metaprotections. If the game is supposed to have a paranoia aspect, then I shouldn't breathe a sigh of relief when a head asks for me to be a part of an experiment, knowing full well that they won't likely put me in danger. I want to feel wary when the HoP walks into my department and starts milling about. I want to eye the CE with suspicion and wonder whether the supermatter is fine or if they're setting it up for a speedrun delam. I want to see the RD concoct some crazy-ass gamer mix of slime extracts and do something stupid.

tl;dr: Metaprotections bad, Acting Captains bad, I don't want to be able to trust anyone other than Security.
Honestly, a lot of the complaints in this thread make me feel like we've lost touch with what an antag round is supposed to be. An antag round means the freedom to try the most wild, destructive gimmicks your twisted mind can think of, and for the crew to face-off against the most demented villains the community can throw at them. I just can't fathom why the complainants in this very thread thing the game would be better for giving that up. Have Manuel's anti-murderbone rules really damaged our brains so much that we think antags with a lot of power are a bad thing for the game? Have people forgotten that every (dynamic) round literally ends with the crew boarding an emergency evacuation shuttle for a reason?
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Re: (MRP) Making heads roles protected attempt 2

Post by Archie700 » #635939

Cheshify wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:50 am I think this is honestly a great way forward. MRP has this weird conflict between Roleplay Rule 3 and the actual game mechanics, wherein you should be respecting and trusting your department heads, but due to the prevalence of head-antag rollers you can't really do that. I've put it this way a few times in discussion but Head Antags invalidate Roleplay Rule 3 simply because it does make the round less enjoyable when you know the person you should be trusting to lead you is possibly also out to kill you.
I want to note that this is a major misinterpretation of Roleplay Rule 3.
The head of your department is your boss and they can fire you; security officers can arrest you for stealing or breaking into places. Unless they're doing something unreasonable, such as spacing you for spraying graffiti on the walls, you shouldn't freak out over being punished for doing something that would get you fired or arrested in real life. This also means that if you're in the chain of command, and especially if you're in Security, you're expected to put in some effort and do your job.
Roleplay Rule 3 points out that your bosses can punish you for general behavior that will get you punished in real life as long as the punishment is reasonable. Nothing in the rule says you have to trust your boss to be good. If your boss is trying to kill you for littering/non-existent/doing something suspicious, that does not conflict with Roleplay Rule 3.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Tearling » #635945

Farquaar wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:29 am Have Manuel's anti-murderbone rules really damaged our brains so much that we think antags with a lot of power are a bad thing for the game?
You changed my mind. Lets flip it the other way around, not only should heads be antags, security should too. Antags should have more meta authority and power, that way we'll have more reason to call emergency shuttles on dynamic. /s
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Timberpoes » #635946

Please, let's keep it civil.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by BeeSting12 » #635947

Bring back detective traitor lmao, I got into playing security because I would roll detective every round just for the chance at getting the sweet detective traitor round so I could claim acting captaincy (keep in mind this is lowpop bagil with ~25 players and me as one of two security). Then I'd run around framing targets and randos for murder and enemy of corp because it's funny to see the rage. It was removed because of how ridiculous it is to allow security to be traitor with all the meta protections they get, but heads of staff don't enjoy those same protections so I wouldn't see why they can't be traitor. I will say I always thought HoP traitor was retarded but with the access nerfs, it's not as bad in my opinion.
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Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by Stickymayhem » #635954

Tearling wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:32 am
Farquaar wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:29 am Have Manuel's anti-murderbone rules really damaged our brains so much that we think antags with a lot of power are a bad thing for the game?
You changed my mind. Lets flip it the other way around, not only should heads be antags, security should too. Antags should have more meta authority and power, that way we'll have more reason to call emergency shuttles on dynamic. /s
Don't threaten me with a good time security antag is based
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
BrianBackslide
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:43 am
Byond Username: BrianBackslide

Re: (MRP) Prevent head roles from rolling antagonists attempt 2

Post by BrianBackslide » #635965

Farquaar wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:29 am Have Manuel's anti-murderbone rules really damaged our brains so much that we think antags with a lot of power are a bad thing for the game? Have people forgotten that every (dynamic) round literally ends with the crew boarding an emergency evacuation shuttle for a reason?
Even as a dirty MRP main I'm starting to wonder if the anti murderbone rules are more of a detriment than a benefit. Not in the "spirit" of the rules, per se. Rather, I think it's psychological. I don't want a round where nothing happens because everyone's scared to do stuff, even only for fear of being called out on it and not for any punitive reason, but I also don't want a bagil style 20 minute round. Antags should be engaging in the round, and crew should be engaging with antags. If I'm an antag, I should be doing something that pushes the round forward. Doesn't have to necessarily be murder, but it should have some palpable effect. I think this extends to head being antags as, again, they have much more leverage to do things that move the "story" of the round.
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