Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

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Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #637679

Bottom post of the previous page:

Part 1 in a series of new RP-rules focused policy posts aiming to re-assess the RP rules in light of changes to the codebase such as nu-Heretics, Prog Traitors and a change in how players, coders and admins approach round progress.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

It is often said that the codebase targets MRP, while our [MRP is HRP] and our [LRP is NRP].
A big part of [MRP is HRP] comes from the way our RP rules restrict and restrain players. Forming the eye of that storm are our murderboning rules.

I would disagree with a blanket notion that our MRP server is HRP. To me, our MRP servers are just the LRP servers with many player freedoms removed. But you won't find ideas such as pain RP being enforced administratively, nor any higher quality RP than on the LRP servers. Playing Sybil and Manuel back-to-back will make that fact plainly obvious.

Afterall, the goal of the RP rules is to create more scenarios where players are drawn into person-to-person interactions with eachother.
The idea is that conflict and RP naturally follows on from players with differing and often opposing goals being brought together to interact.

All of the RP rules try and work together to create an enviornment where the above can be accomplished. That means that antags are restricted (by murderbone rules) to allow for the standard valid/not valid binary thinking that tends to be a barrier to RP to also be set aside (antags must be treated in proportion to their crimes).

Despite that, non-murderbone antags which cannot be safely contained (old heretics, changelings) are still valid for instant round removal.

Antags that can justify killing and even round removal en masse (prog traitors, regardless of kill objective caps) may seek pacifistic methods to greentext in order to rely on the protections in place that prevent them being removed from the shift so they can safely antag.

Meanwhile players sometimes rely on the anti-murderbone provisions to explicitly give antags no valid reason to kill them, rendering them effectively safe and removing a lot of the paranoia of playing SS13. However, this also works hand-in-hand with anti-powergaming provisions since the crew has no OOC reason to be armed up except for metagaming purposes since antags are less able to kill them for no reason, and any given player requires an IC reason that goes beyond "this is SS13, there's probably at least one antag out there" to create an arms race. Arms races often restrict antag freedoms and force them to compete on a similar level.

There's far more about how the RP rules work together to make certain things possible, restricting both sides to allow for better expression of "storytelling, pacing and sportsmanship" as previous headmin RaveRadbury would say. I have these concepts strongly in mind when I think about the RP rules and the purpose of them.

That being said, I'm opening up a broad discussion on the murderboning rules and killing on the MRP servers in general.

Here's some food-for-thought opening concepts to get people thinking and discussing.

1. Murderbone as a word has lost its common-sense meaning.

The rules define a single "random" kill as murderbone, but racking up 6 kills following your greentext as perfectly fine.

This is a bit deeper than it seems at first. Because the next question is:
Did we choose the wrong word, or the wrong meaning?

Should the RP rules create servers where you are not allowed to kill for no/poor reasons, but can kill as many as you like with good reason?
Or should they create servers where you are allowed to kill people for no/poor reasons, but should not kill in excess beyond any arbitrary limit even with good reason?

Or should it try and combine aspects of both? Of course making things more fuzzy will create differing rulings between differing admins - For example allowing a set number of "because I'm an antag" kills and allowing only "with good reason/cause" kills after that point is likely to create scenarios where kill-happy admins like myself will give an antag more freedom than kill-averse admins.

Can we take the best of both worlds and have it work in practice? Should we? How?

2. Our RP server turns to turn greentexting into a commandment as opposed to a suggestion.

Because the murderbone rules are tied to an antag's objectives, our MRP servers put a higher focus on players obtaining greentext to be safe from bwoinking than the LRP servers, where players are free to ignore their objectives in favour of the freedom to go do whatever.

Previously an antag was always restricted by their static, non-changing objectives.

Sometimes this didn't work out, as in the case of old heretics where their goal of ascending afforded them an almost unilateral pass to kill indiscriminately because their final objective was open-ended and could be accomplished with sacrifices. In the modern tg, progression traitors also pose an interesting question because players can now actively select their objectives. Depending on the objective, it may justify a kill. Steal objectives included.

Is sticking to greentext as the decider of whether a player is killing too much or not still a good pattern to follow with Prog Traitors? Was it ever a good pattern? Could it be improved? How?

3. There's no paranoia, no fear and players are just too safe.

This plays into long rounds where nothing happens. Those exceptionally long rounds also punish players who get removed from the shift, leading to a meta of prioritising personal safety to avoid missing out.

The extension to the rules that allows for IC slights/insults to give antags a reason to kill someone was an improvement in my eyes. Despite that, players who are polite, conscientous and help all those in need tend to have effective plot armour.

Are players too safe on MRP? Do the murderbone rules go too far in restricting the ability for an antag to kill anyone at any time for any reason or no reason? Does this cause shifts that are too long, too safe and too punishing for dying? Can this be improved? How?
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Vekter » #640974

Timberpoes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:48 pm Did a group of players decide to create a maint sofa fort and snubbed you when you wanted to join in too? Rude as fuck. Bomb their sofa fort and display their heads on pikes outside as a warning to anyone stupid enough to try it again.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by YBS » #640990

I agree that MRP deserves a pull from HRP. The rough rules will provide for this because our vocal playerbase defers towards high chaos near-NRP.

The issue of LRP is NRP is a non issue, because the individuals who want to elevate to “true LRP” are the the minority. There’s also no functional plan that would incentivize the current playerbase. Everyone’s very quick to say “fuck em we’ll fix it anyway” until it comes time to actually get in and take janitorial actions to make players accountable.

Tl;dr abandon LRP to function as it currently operates, because high player caps show that players still enjoy it. Meanwhile, let MRP drift back from HRP (an iteration of Timbers ruleset would help enable this).
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #641994

I'm getting a last round of feedback in before putting a formal proposal forward to the other headmins for INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS Tower discussions.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Timberpoes

I've moved the examples out entirely for the sake of brevity. Some reworded versions can be seen at the top under the appropriate heading. Whether they make it into the final version? Not sure yet.

1. Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed as long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes.
Most undeveloped part of the rules. Incorporates viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31546.

2. Antags directly completing objectives are unrestricted.
This is basically current policy, but has been made very clear.

3. Antags indirectly completing objectives should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.
This should be current policy, but I've extracted the murderbone and some of the other fluff which has been incorporated into Rule 5 itself.

4. When wanting to cause death and destruction not related to objectives, restricted antagonists may instead rely on extremely relaxed escalation.
This is the major departure from current rules. This allows antagonists to kill people outside of their objectives for RP-centric reasons. In order to make this as common sense as possible for LRP players who may want to visit MRP, it is tied into relaxed escalation.

A kind of self-antaggy escalation is what I tried to capture. Antags would be able to pick fights with people who were rude, people who were overly nice, people who refuse to talk to them, people who exclude them from projects or hanging out. They would be permitted to escalate to lethals faster, utilise more lethal lethals, have no obligation to heal their target, may rely on escalation's provisions for round removal with minor reasons (major reasons are valid, they're an antag).

The hope is that LRP players have an easier time playing as an antag on MRP because the LRP experiences in escalation transfer over when someone acts out against them and they choose violence as a response.

5. Malf AI is no longer restricted to speedrunning delta and may cause death and destruction at any time.
Malf AI goes brrrrrr.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #642021

Lovin it, headmin administration is doing good work. Keep it up?
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #642032

Really liking how far escalation is relaxed in those examples.
In your opinion, would commanding someone to grovel before you, and them refusing to do so count as a valid reason to murder them?
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #642040

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:58 pm Really liking how far escalation is relaxed in those examples.
In your opinion, would commanding someone to grovel before you, and them refusing to do so count as a valid reason to murder them?
Would depend on all the factors. I would argue that under my proposed rules it is at the VERY LEAST a good reason to beat the crap out of them and/or break a few bones/kneecaps.

Other IC events in the shift could influence whether it's enough actually kill 'em. If you do it out of nowhere, I'd argue it's probably a bit close to manufacturing a flimsy reason for an FNR kill. If they've crossed your path earlier in the shift and you have some IC reason to want to make them grovel before you because of it, I would say we're getting dangerously close to actual roleplay here and as a result the antag may have a bit of killies as a treat.

However an antagonist who chooses to kill a player outside of their objectives should keep in mind that taking steps towards actual round removal (and yes, hiding bodies in lockers with suit sensors off is taking steps towards actual round removal) requires either following standard escalation rules guidance on round removal (which also apply to non-antags), or have the escalation be based on fairly serious IC reasons. The killed player's body may get found, they may get revived, they may seek revenge or may tell security about you. That's part of the antag experience on MRP and contributes to the pacing and narrative of the shift.

Completing your objectives is free. Round remove away and feel free to apply the same principles to torment your targets and make them grovel before you, then kill them and space their body anyway just because you can.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by cybersaber101 » #642096

Timberpoes wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:23 pm
5. Malf AI is no longer restricted to speedrunning delta and may cause death and destruction at any time.
Malf AI goes brrrrrr.
Utter agony.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Annihilite111 » #642324

Timberpoes wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:23 pm I'm getting a last round of feedback in before putting a formal proposal forward to the other headmins for INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS Tower discussions.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Timberpoes

I've moved the examples out entirely for the sake of brevity. Some reworded versions can be seen at the top under the appropriate heading. Whether they make it into the final version? Not sure yet.

1. Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed as long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes.
Most undeveloped part of the rules. Incorporates viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31546.

2. Antags directly completing objectives are unrestricted.
This is basically current policy, but has been made very clear.

3. Antags indirectly completing objectives should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.
This should be current policy, but I've extracted the murderbone and some of the other fluff which has been incorporated into Rule 5 itself.

4. When wanting to cause death and destruction not related to objectives, restricted antagonists may instead rely on extremely relaxed escalation.
This is the major departure from current rules. This allows antagonists to kill people outside of their objectives for RP-centric reasons. In order to make this as common sense as possible for LRP players who may want to visit MRP, it is tied into relaxed escalation.

A kind of self-antaggy escalation is what I tried to capture. Antags would be able to pick fights with people who were rude, people who were overly nice, people who refuse to talk to them, people who exclude them from projects or hanging out. They would be permitted to escalate to lethals faster, utilise more lethal lethals, have no obligation to heal their target, may rely on escalation's provisions for round removal with minor reasons (major reasons are valid, they're an antag).

The hope is that LRP players have an easier time playing as an antag on MRP because the LRP experiences in escalation transfer over when someone acts out against them and they choose violence as a response.

5. Malf AI is no longer restricted to speedrunning delta and may cause death and destruction at any time.
Malf AI goes brrrrrr.
Good. Having to press the "either die or end the round in 5 minutes" button to antag as malf AI sucks.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by spookuni » #642419

cybersaber101 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:01 am
Timberpoes wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:23 pm
5. Malf AI is no longer restricted to speedrunning delta and may cause death and destruction at any time.
Malf AI goes brrrrrr.
Utter agony.
NGL, I'm anticipating a new renaissance of dislike of Malf AI incoming - it's a gear check antag being run on a server where people aren't really allowed to gear up at all, but at this point I think we've swung too hard towards heavy antag restrictions (from the insufficient restrictions antags killing everyone of six months ago). Good idea to loose the leash and see what happens, worst case scenario AI restrictions just get walked back. (Actual worst case is probably malf AI pisses everyone off enough to see it disabled on Manuel, but eh.)
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by BrianBackslide » #642749

Since the tools needed to effectively repair the station are now locked behind toxins experiments, what degree of sabotage is permitted? I could easily turn the station to swiss cheese, but that'd probably force a shuttle call at 30 minutes due to a lack of ability to repair damage.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #642753

Non-advanced tools are still readily available and do exactly the same functions. A toolbelt can hold an entire set of non-advanced tools. Breaches can be repaired with iron. And sometimes the station just goes to fuck.

The idea is that there's basically no reasonable (there are plenty of unreasonable) IC/roleplay justification for plasma flooding, delamming the SM, releasing a deadly virus etc. but they're still iconic to SS13. Atmospherics should be a high risk area and there should be a threat of plasma flooding. The SM Engine should be a high risk area and there should be a risk of SM delamination. Seeing someone random in an area like telecomms should make you paranoid. Virology should be a dangerous and risky place to grant access to. Players playing in a certain way because there's special magical meta rules against causing a delam or plasma flooding as an antag is not conducive to roleplay.

The way to make those places as dangerous or risky as intended is to allow antagonists to abuse them. Releasing the restraints is needed to make MRP still grasp at the spirit of SS13.

Just doing random acts of desctruction for little or no IC reason or "just because the rules say I can" doesn't serve any greater meta-interest or gameplay goal, unlike the above.

So swiss cheesing the station probably wouldn't be covered.

Shift length doesn't matter to me. LRP has complete antag freedom and the codebase is balancing shift length around that. The more restricted MRP environment should have similar-to-longer shift times, even if the occasional short shift presents itself. In other words: The worst case scenario is Manuel regularly has 60-90 minute shifts like the rest of tg.

Mothblocks has the stats on that though and would be able to provide more input when we're discussing this as headmins.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Redrover1760 » #642793

To be fair, Malf AI's reliance on being a stealthy creature (due to the lack of ability of a malf AI to truly defend itself against skilled players, without borgs anyways, outside of successfully counting down the delta timer and delaying like hell) means that odds are attempting to murderbone as a malf AI unless you already got a really good plan or a good borg army very difficult, to be frank. I think it should be fine in my opinion, especially considering that this also makes Malf AI a threat the whole station as a whole, allowing everyone to try fighting against it.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by chocolate_bickie » #642912

A weird side effect on the no-murderbone rules is that it prevents traitors from preemptively killing problems players.

For example, Sweaty Seccie is assigned to medbay. Now if you want to plant a bug in CMO office you have to avoid being seen by anyone, otherwise Sweaty Seccie will baton you, cuff you, steal your PDA, headset, shoes and surgically search you ending your antagging right there.

Ideally, as on LRP, you'd just revolver them, then use their stolen gear to complete the rest of your objectives.

But that would be murderbone and since traitors lack any meaningful stun/knockdown weapons on par with baton any security encounter resolves in there favour.

Tl,dr: Sec and heads should always be valid targets for antags, they have the tools to defend themselves.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Pandarsenic » #642940

I'm inclined to agree, since having a head ID offers such dramatic advantages and because sec is both a constant threat and a piñata of some of the station's best loot.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by sinfulbliss » #642970

Timberpoes wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:48 am The idea is that there's basically no reasonable (there are plenty of unreasonable) IC/roleplay justification for plasma flooding, delamming the SM, releasing a deadly virus etc. but they're still iconic to SS13. Atmospherics should be a high risk area and there should be a threat of plasma flooding. The SM Engine should be a high risk area and there should be a risk of SM delamination. Seeing someone random in an area like telecomms should make you paranoid. Virology should be a dangerous and risky place to grant access to. Players playing in a certain way because there's special magical meta rules against causing a delam or plasma flooding as an antag is not conducive to roleplay.
This is an excellent take.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #642987

Shit, sinfullbliss agreed with me. Quick, pack it up. The experiment is concluded. I am now removing antagonists from MRP and making antagonism permabannable.

(I'll be pushing this forward to the headmin team in the coming days to be mired in 3 months of red tape, I am eternally grateful for everyone's participation in the discussion. It has been a cut above the standard MRP policy discussion drivelposting we so often see.)
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by spookuni » #643101

Timberpoes wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:04 pm Shit, sinfullbliss agreed with me. Quick, pack it up. The experiment is concluded. I am now removing antagonists from MRP and making antagonism permabannable.

(I'll be pushing this forward to the headmin team in the coming days to be mired in 3 months of red tape, I am eternally grateful for everyone's participation in the discussion. It has been a cut above the standard MRP policy discussion drivelposting we so often see.)
I walk back everything I've ever said about antags and sabotage and causing mayhem clearly we've gone wrong somewhere along this line please send help the world doesn't make sense anymore.

/s
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Misdoubtful » #650995

Are there any updates on this?
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Timberpoes » #651022

It's been voted to go live for a while, but I wasn't entirely happy with how mass sabotage was incorporated and Melbert would only allow malf AIs allowed to be added to the "unrestricted antag" list if they were made midround only.

With Spookuni on the headmin team, I've since been looking to dot the is and cross the ts with them, especially on mass sabotage.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by Misdoubtful » #651024

Much appreciated on the status update! Looking forward to it.
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Re: Rebuild of RP Restrictions 1.0: You Will (Not) Kill now ft. 2.0: You Will (Not) Sabotage

Post by spookuni » #667691

As with the ending of viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31546&start=50 - the rewritten MRP rules are now live (and have been for a few days) on the MRP servers. As such this thread is getting closed.
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