Loosen up thief kill permissions

Locked
Longestarmlonglaw
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:42 am
Byond Username: Longestarmlonglaw

Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Longestarmlonglaw » #640049

Right now, Thief is KILLBAIT central because non-lethal weaponry is incredibly difficult to come by unless it is bulky, which means you'll be brigged for it or confiscated

And another clause is "Normal escalation"
Need i not remind you how this reinforces killbaiting?
Non-lethal weaponry is very hard to acquire unless your sec, in which case if your an antagonist who got promoted to sec, Congrats, you got a free win card, If you are not sec, Your only option, Apart from breaking into security Which will probably get you arrested, Which is not ideal, do too many times, and your permaed, can't even fight back with lethal methods against pursuing security officers (Meta protection go brrrr, but other antagonists are allowed, Heck even on fulp as an obsessed, not a thief, because they didn't update the rules yet, It literally says you can kill pursuing seccies, Just cant render them unrevivable, Which should go for the same for thieves/Obsessed)
Why am i comparing obsessed to thieves? Because they both fit in the antagonist category of: Crew can't murder them for the crime of existing, but if they do malicious stuff, fair game, And they can't just space and kill every corpse, But killing pursuing People should be allowed)

So killing people for items, Probably not okay, But stunning and taking? Allowed but, why do you think im making this policy thread? Because of one horrible thing which allows thieves to be killed for adding to the round rather than silently going the passive route of doing objectives

RULE 4

This rule, fine on it's own, heavily conflicts with thieves, thieves can't fight back lethally, gotta stick to non-lethal methods, which are very obvious, Or extremely hard to acquire.
Effectively meaning that you can attack thieves, and they can't fight back.

Once you stun a person and take organs/Id/High risk item, They squeal over comms, Not enough time to remove headset, now you have a "IM AN ANTAG, COME GET ME" sign over your head.

And you have to fight 15+ people with only non-lethals, Its not as bad as it is on mrp, But When a detective got kidnapped on mrp, almost everybody rushed to the maint area, I reported this to an admin, but since low sec pop, marked as IC issue, I believe the thief was a liver snatcher called hans heinsberg, or Annhilate, Im certain they got killed and cremated, but i don't know


What this policy thread is asking is Loosen up thief escalation, give them more leeway in general killing and self defense
Tarhalindur
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:58 pm
Byond Username: Tarhalindur

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Tarhalindur » #640073

I feel I should first note that it's a common misconception that thieves can never kill. They can.

It is true that they are not permitted to start by killing. They can't kill people to obtain an item unless they don't have other options, nor can they kill someone just because they feel like it. Using bombs, delaminating the SM, plasmaflooding, or otherwise creating huge amounts of collateral damage is generally also not acceptable.

However, thieves can escalate. As soon as someone pulls out a toolbox or laser, you're allowed to use as much force as necessary to get them to stop. And because you're an antagonist you can also escalate against arrests even if you wouldn't normally be able to.
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by datorangebottle » #640077

We don't need more people having an excuse to murderbone.
Very few admins will ban you for killing someone who attacked you first or was an extreme threat to your objectives, and it'd be a piss-easy appeal.
If you need to avoid radio callouts, wear a face covering mask or helmet so they can't identify you, use the syringe gun to fill people with mute toxin or nar'sour, sabotage the telecomms systems, or wait for an outage.
The entire point of Thief is that they're an antag that isn't explicitly allowed to run around and murder the entire station; they have to play to their role of inconveniencing the station by stealing things or ignore their antagonist status entirely. If you dislike this, consider disabling them. You aren't forced to play thief.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Pandarsenic » #640080

Honestly, I don't super hate thieves - they have clear fluff and clear objectives that generally put them into conflict with the station.

- Goodbye hoarder, no more of "take 5 pairs of the insulated gloves I have access to as an Engineer anyway" please
- ID steal is basically "delayed deathmatch" if you don't manage to hide your identity. It's easy to arrange a reason to kill everyone if you want by starting a lynch mob and then dunking everyone, but you can also be a sneaky asshole about it (and you don't get any powerful gear but what you steal to survive that lynch mob).
- Organ steal would be cooler except for that there are now humans in the morgue roundstart and keeping organs fresh is difficult, especially because nothing but organ smartfridges is clearly a way to do that, BUT this means you have a good reason to cause chaos to call the shuttle before your organs go bad. I call it a net positive.
- Steal AI is good: It's an old traitor objective and it's as volatile as it should be, whether you steal the roundstart AI or make your own.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
RaveRadbury
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:41 am
Byond Username: RaveRadbury
Github Username: RaveRadbury
Location: BK ChatZone
Contact:

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by RaveRadbury » #640089

Longestarmlonglaw wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:39 am Permabanned player making a policy thread to excuse his past behavior and implying that he's still actively evading.
Image
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640096

stealing the nuke disk is pretty tough for a nukie. Let alone a thief.

They need some power-creeped non-lethal weapons for sure, if they want to stay in this griefer escalation pool their at. (Looking at bats with a chance to KO, or buffed boxing glovesmaybe?) If not in that direction. I would also appreciate a rule change for thief, these limits create headaches for players and admins alike. That lead to thieves preferring to non-antagonistically go about their objectives. Or not doing them at all, wasting threat.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
Byond Username: Rectification
Location: Space Station 13

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #640100

Shadowflame909 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:14 pm stealing the nuke disk is pretty tough for a nukie. Let alone a thief.

They need some power-creeped non-lethal weapons for sure, if they want to stay in this griefer escalation pool their at. (Looking at bats with a chance to KO, or buffed boxing glovesmaybe?) If not in that direction. I would also appreciate a rule change for thief, these limits create headaches for players and admins alike. That lead to thieves preferring to non-antagonistically go about their objectives. Or not doing them at all, wasting threat.
You could give them a blackjack that instantly knocks out from behind as a cool reference. Only thief's can use it effectively.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640109

we trust abductor players with stronger things with less restrictions. So agreed!
► Show Spoiler
carshalash
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:57 am
Byond Username: Carshalash

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by carshalash » #640131

Longestarmlonglaw wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:39 am I will NEVER feel the warm embrace of a woman.
Agreed
Longestarmlonglaw
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:42 am
Byond Username: Longestarmlonglaw

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Longestarmlonglaw » #640137

carshalash wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:42 am
Longestarmlonglaw wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:39 am I will NEVER feel the warm embrace of a woman.
Agreed
Agree, I actually want to remain a bachelor,

For real lets get back on topic instead of shitposting, feel free to make a gerald lopez peanut thread if you want to so badly
User avatar
TheFinalPotato
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
Byond Username: LemonInTheDark

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by TheFinalPotato » #640143

Aren't you permabanned?
Also the idea of thief was to serve as a side antag, minor by rule restriction. This'd be a pretty large change.
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
Image
Image
Image
Image
Tarhalindur
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:58 pm
Byond Username: Tarhalindur

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Tarhalindur » #640149

I feel like 99% of this is because people don't understand what thieves can and can't do so maybe a more explicit policy somewhere would be nice

Also personally I've never had problems stealing loads of shit as thief, but then I usually play command so maybe that has something to do with this
Boot
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 10:16 pm
Byond Username: B00t

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Boot » #640154

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 5:43 pm - Organ steal would be cooler except for that there are now humans in the morgue roundstart and keeping organs fresh is difficult, especially because nothing but organ smartfridges is clearly a way to do that, BUT this means you have a good reason to cause chaos to call the shuttle before your organs go bad. I call it a net positive.
Last I checked there is a organ carrying case that you can fill with Cryostylane to keep stuff cool that comes from the medical vender. Maybe a change saying it has to be x of a certain organ to stop people from just cutting up one body and being set but then again the real cheese is just to butcher some monkies.

While I like the idea of soft antags I don't really think we have the tools to properly handle them. If you get the objective to steal the CE's boots and that role isn't empty then you're just fucked. Lets say you manage to nonlethally get the CE down, you pushed him down and cable tied him. Now you're gigafucked because you aren't getting that modsuit off before he can scream bloody murder. It would be best if Sec got there before the rest of the engis do because if they manage to lynch you then you arn't going to the medbay, you're going into the SM and no amount of "no please I just wanted the shoes I'm a thief" is going to stop that because if that did work then every single antag would just scream that to not get round-removed.
Image Image
Longestarmlonglaw
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:42 am
Byond Username: Longestarmlonglaw

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Longestarmlonglaw » #640187

TheFinalPotato wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:55 am Aren't you permabanned?
Also the idea of thief was to serve as a side antag, minor by rule restriction. This'd be a pretty large change.
They ARE minor, too minor too the point they can only react with non-lethals when people want to arrest/Kill them, and non-lethal weaponry is VERY hard to come by unless it's bulky (improvised weapons)

And what if someone is immune to stuns entirely? Bath salts, hulk, how is a thief, going to use a stunprod to detain a hulk?
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Pandarsenic » #640189

Longestarmlonglaw wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:18 am
TheFinalPotato wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:55 am Aren't you permabanned?
Also the idea of thief was to serve as a side antag, minor by rule restriction. This'd be a pretty large change.
They ARE minor, too minor too the point they can only react with non-lethals when people want to arrest/Kill them, and non-lethal weaponry is VERY hard to come by unless it's bulky (improvised weapons)

And what if someone is immune to stuns entirely? Bath salts, hulk, how is a thief, going to use a stunprod to detain a hulk?
Would it be overly rude for me to reply, "That's a problem you probably won't need to be concerned about for a while" here?
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by datorangebottle » #640192

Pandarsenic wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:21 am Would it be overly rude for me to reply, "That's a problem you probably won't need to be concerned about for a while" here?
No, because there's no reason to seriously engage with the topic being pushed by someone who is not only permabanned, but attempted to evade that ban and is continuing to evade that ban.
You should need a linked, not-permabanned BYOND account to post in this forum.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640193

Well can you pretend I posted it. Because escalating against command staff and sec when they have every right to shoot you dead is indeed messy. Yeet it to MRP or give them robust tools codewise I say
I've had some fun hostage rounds with thief on MRP btw. It does work there.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
terranaut
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
Byond Username: Terranaut

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by terranaut » #640222

datorangebottle wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:49 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:21 am Would it be overly rude for me to reply, "That's a problem you probably won't need to be concerned about for a while" here?
No, because there's no reason to seriously engage with the topic being pushed by someone who is not only permabanned, but attempted to evade that ban and is continuing to evade that ban.
You should need a linked, not-permabanned BYOND account to post in this forum.
You could engage the topic on its own merits instead of dismissing it because of who posted it.
[🅲 1] [🆄 1] [🅼 1]

Image
Tarhalindur
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:58 pm
Byond Username: Tarhalindur

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Tarhalindur » #640246

Longestarmlonglaw wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:18 am
TheFinalPotato wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:55 am Aren't you permabanned?
Also the idea of thief was to serve as a side antag, minor by rule restriction. This'd be a pretty large change.
They ARE minor, too minor too the point they can only react with non-lethals when people want to arrest/Kill them, and non-lethal weaponry is VERY hard to come by unless it's bulky (improvised weapons)

And what if someone is immune to stuns entirely? Bath salts, hulk, how is a thief, going to use a stunprod to detain a hulk?
Tarhalindur wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 3:28 pm I feel I should first note that it's a common misconception that thieves can never kill. They can.

It is true that they are not permitted to start by killing. They can't kill people to obtain an item unless they don't have other options, nor can they kill someone just because they feel like it. Using bombs, delaminating the SM, plasmaflooding, or otherwise creating huge amounts of collateral damage is generally also not acceptable.

However, thieves can escalate. As soon as someone pulls out a toolbox or laser, you're allowed to use as much force as necessary to get them to stop. And because you're an antagonist you can also escalate against arrests even if you wouldn't normally be able to.
At a certain point you have to wonder if you're actually listening.
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640247

Tarhalindur wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:49 am At a certain point you have to wonder if you're actually listening.
Still should be clearer cut though. Escalation works best against other regular crewmembers. 99% of the time if sec has reasons to lethal you, they wont revive you and will just shove your body in the sec morgue. The risk is high, and we run into a lot of players just not dealing with it, and instead opting to not antagonize at all.
► Show Spoiler
thgvr
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:43 pm
Byond Username: Thgvr

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by thgvr » #640604

why are you guys still posting in a thread made by a permabanned ban evader
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640638

because i agree with their argument. I hate toeing the line when the game gives you very little support to stradle that line

its why abductors get a night night stick. They're bound by the rules to not kill people with it!
► Show Spoiler
carshalash
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:57 am
Byond Username: Carshalash

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by carshalash » #640736

Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:00 am because i agree with their argument. I hate toeing the line when the game gives you very little support to stradle that line

its why abductors get a night night stick. They're bound by the rules to not kill people with it!
You agree with the man who is banned due to rushing murder guns repeatedly as a thief, regardless of if his object is to have guns or not?

Damn pimple, your standards sure are shit these days.
User avatar
Shadowflame909
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Byond Username: Shadowflame909
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Shadowflame909 » #640739

its kimple and yes. I think thieves need some sort of code solution or a rules relaxation. I'm not trying to go down a checklist on "if I can kill now to survive" when I should be focused on thieving!
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Mothblocks » #640776

This question comes up a lot and I think we're doing a disservice if we dismiss it on the grounds of the OP that made it because of that. If we were to close this now on those grounds, all that would happen is someone else would make the thread.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
User avatar
YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
Byond Username: YBS

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by YBS » #641048

As thief can I kill???

I like the idea of thieves doing brazen robbery like holdups- inviting escalation once someones shown lethal intent towards them.

But this is already a thing, isnt it? Maybe we should have clarifying text for that on thief idk
Image
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Pandarsenic » #641070

YBS wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:21 pm As thief can I kill???

I like the idea of thieves doing brazen robbery like holdups- inviting escalation once someones shown lethal intent towards them.

But this is already a thing, isnt it? Maybe we should have clarifying text for that on thief idk
Depends a lot on who answers the ahelp, which isn't an ideal thing to say about an antag's core permissions and identity.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
Byond Username: YBS

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by YBS » #641078

Pandarsenic wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:07 pm
YBS wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:21 pm As thief can I kill???

I like the idea of thieves doing brazen robbery like holdups- inviting escalation once someones shown lethal intent towards them.

But this is already a thing, isnt it? Maybe we should have clarifying text for that on thief idk
Depends a lot on who answers the ahelp, which isn't an ideal thing to say about an antag's core permissions and identity.
As someone who’s let thieves get a little rowdy/take hostages I can agree that most players will just defer to saying “oh I can’t” which means the policy needs overt, accessible clarity.
Image
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Loosen up thief kill permissions

Post by Mothblocks » #643885

Thieves are opportunists. For instance, organ thieves should take the opportunity to steal organs when presented with one, but not dedicate their round to it. That is why their kill privileges are so limited.

Thieves are also good for their ability to be added in large quantities without the chance for the round (especially an LRP one) to completely devolve into usual antagonist antics.

This will not be changed.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users